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  1. #1
    Date d'inscription
    mai 2007
    Messages
    201

    Who is in control, Sauron or the Ring?

    My friend would joke about the silly things Sauron has done, that lead to his defeat. Like leaving the front door to Mt. Dum wide open or wearing the ring on the outside of his armor. I started to think about it more philosophically. Then it hit me, what if the better part of his power comes from the Ring, and not himself? What if he forged it to become the most powerful being, but at the cost of having to bend his will to that of his own creation? That would explain the arrogance, and perhaps even a secret desire of his own to be free of the Ring! Could there even be a sliver of light left in his being, that is dominated by the wicked essence in the Ring?

    Think on that!

  2. #2
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2010
    Messages
    1 034
    Not that simple, the ring philosophically speaking is "power", how much? well it depends on the wearer. When sauron forged it the ring gave him extraordinary power to destroy and became the menace he wanted to become, when the ring found other users for example Gollum it drived him crazy, Bilbo became too thin, etc. Because power corrupts, that is the main lesson, no matter who is power (Good or Bad) it eventually will corrupt, because power is winning and everyone likes to wiin.

    Absolute Power corrupts absolutely, I think Tolkien was thinking on those lines.

  3. #3
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2007
    Messages
    313
    Citation Envoyé par Hothoen Voir le message
    Who is in control?
    I don't think this is an issue in Sauron's case. For him the One is a tool. A conduit/amplifier. The Ring after all is not a conscious entity. It's seductive as any great power is, it's in some ways steered by the powers it is imbued with, but the object itself is just that, an object.
    Sauron was indeed corrupted, but by the very nature of the powers he used. And he had been using them for far longer than the existence of this particular tool.

  4. #4
    Date d'inscription
    août 2008
    Localisation
    Cookie Land
    Messages
    1 617
    Citation Envoyé par Egorvlad Voir le message
    I don't think this is an issue in Sauron's case. For him the One is a tool. A conduit/amplifier. The Ring after all is not a conscious entity. It's seductive as any great power is, it's in some ways steered by the powers it is imbued with, but the object itself is just that, an object.
    Sauron was indeed corrupted, but by the very nature of the powers he used. And he had been using them for far longer than the existence of this particular tool.
    I would not currently argue against any of that. The question does still remain what Tolkien meant by Gandalf’s (I think) statement: (something like) “The ring wanted to be found, It was trying to get back to its creator”.

  5. #5
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2013
    Messages
    182
    Citation Envoyé par RKL Voir le message
    I would not currently argue against any of that. The question does still remain what Tolkien meant by Gandalf’s (I think) statement: (something like) “The ring wanted to be found, It was trying to get back to its creator”.

    Gandalf does indeed say that At one point he says "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it." and just a few setances later "It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him". So I would say the Ring has a will of its own in that it longs to return to Sauron.

    But there are other powers at work as well so its not always as simply as what the Ring/Sauron's will. The Ring may have left Gollum but some greater power, Eru, decoded tp put Bilbo in its path. Tolkien often uses the word chance but another word that Tolkien himself would have known is the Old English Wryd, often translated as fate but providence may be a better translation.
    Dernière modification par Meluihel ; 22/12/2013 à 18h47.

  6. #6
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2007
    Messages
    313
    Citation Envoyé par Meluihel Voir le message
    Gandalf does indeed say that At one point he says "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it." and just a few setances later "It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him". So I would say the Ring has a will of its own in that it longs to return to Sauron
    As I said, it is of course by no means an inert conduit and the power contained within is acting through it to an extent. Though Gandalf meant this half figuratively too, he was alluding to Fate as much as the will of the Ring. (yeah, what you said )
    But any case, the roots of everything the One is lie with Sauron himself, so for him the problem was never the Ring but his own ambitions.

  7. #7
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2010
    Messages
    1 034
    Melu and Ergo, well said I think the same way the ring wanted what sauron wanted.

    I think the One ring is a powerful tool, so powerful that is corrupts even the good people, so in Tolkien world power is synonymous of corrupt,evil.

  8. #8
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2013
    Messages
    182
    Citation Envoyé par Egorvlad Voir le message
    As I said, it is of course by no means an inert conduit and the power contained within is acting through it to an extent. Though Gandalf meant this half figuratively too, he was alluding to Fate as much as the will of the Ring. (yeah, what you said )
    But any case, the roots of everything the One is lie with Sauron himself, so for him the problem was never the Ring but his own ambitions.
    Oh I could not agree more. Sauron was evil long, long before even the idea of the One Ring entered his mind.

    Citation Envoyé par Al. Voir le message
    Melu and Ergo, well said I think the same way the ring wanted what sauron wanted.

    I think the One ring is a powerful tool, so powerful that is corrupts even the good people, so in Tolkien world power is synonymous of corrupt,evil.
    I do not think I would go so far as to say that power is synonymous of corruption or evil. For the elves have some measure of power as well. The difference I think comes in how power is used. The Enemy uses it to dominate and destroy. While the elves, especially the more powerful ones like Galadriel Elrond ext, use it to heal and create beauty. Perhaps one might also say the Ring is more dangerous to those who already have a great deal of power themselves? ie Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond ext.

  9. #9
    Date d'inscription
    mai 2007
    Messages
    201
    Citation Envoyé par Egorvlad Voir le message
    As I said, it is of course by no means an inert conduit and the power contained within is acting through it to an extent. Though Gandalf meant this half figuratively too, he was alluding to Fate as much as the will of the Ring. (yeah, what you said )
    But any case, the roots of everything the One is lie with Sauron himself, so for him the problem was never the Ring but his own ambitions.
    It's not a mere tool, it's his essence. So much of what made him deceitful and wicked enough to forge the Ring, was also placed into it. It's a part of Sauron's Being, and perhaps the worst part of it. He was too ambitious, he serves that which he created like all who lust after power they become a slave to their own ambitions.

    I believe the Ring to be a curse to all, even it's creator

  10. #10
    Date d'inscription
    octobre 2012
    Messages
    169
    Citation Envoyé par Hothoen Voir le message
    I believe the Ring to be a curse to all, even it's creator
    Lots of good stuff above, from everyone, but I think this really 'hits the nail on the head', at least so far as the author's narrative intentions can be perceived: remember the imprecation delivered by Frodo, while clenching the One Ring, to Gollum on the slopes of Orodruin,

    "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom";

    the author's subtlety presents itself when the reader considers the proposition that Frodo's quest would have failed, if this curse had not come to fruition.

    As Théoden said, "oft evil will shall evil mar" ...

    Regarding the proposition offered at the beginning of this thread, the One Ring did seem to possess a rather feral, and sometimes seemingly aimless, malice that it was wont to unleash upon anyone: perhaps its will recognized no 'friends', but only victims/thralls; perhaps it recognized no master, either.

    HoG

  11. #11
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Memory of Laurelin
    Messages
    1 229
    As we know, Sauron poured himself into the Ring:
    "-but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others --- And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into the that One Ring-" (Silmarillion)

    Sauron and the Ring are naught but pieces of a whole; without the other, the other's incomplete. And they're trying to become whole.

    Actually, a while back, I happened to discuss the Ring a bit more in depth IRL.
    During that discussion, one of us 'simplified' the relationship of the Ring & Sauron: Being made out of himself, the Ring is 50% Sauron. Sauron without the Ring is 50% Sauron. But Sauron with the Ring, designed to enhance and empower him, is 150% Sauron.
    [center]Jestem tym, czym jestem.[/center]

  12. #12
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2013
    Messages
    182
    Citation Envoyé par Hothoen Voir le message
    It's not a mere tool, it's his essence. So much of what made him deceitful and wicked enough to forge the Ring, was also placed into it. It's a part of Sauron's Being, and perhaps the worst part of it. He was too ambitious, he serves that which he created like all who lust after power they become a slave to their own ambitions.

    I believe the Ring to be a curse to all, even it's creator

    Citation Envoyé par Daeross Voir le message
    As we know, Sauron poured himself into the Ring:
    "-but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others --- And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into the that One Ring-" (Silmarillion)

    Sauron and the Ring are naught but pieces of a whole; without the other, the other's incomplete. And they're trying to become whole.

    Actually, a while back, I happened to discuss the Ring a bit more in depth IRL.
    During that discussion, one of us 'simplified' the relationship of the Ring & Sauron: Being made out of himself, the Ring is 50% Sauron. Sauron without the Ring is 50% Sauron. But Sauron with the Ring, designed to enhance and empower him, is 150% Sauron.

    Yes and no. If I make a painting I pour part of myself into it, that is the nnature of creating something. But the painting never becomes me, the created never becomes the creator. The Ring is apart of Sauron in so far as he poured much of his will and power into it. But it is never his essence since Sauron exists outside of the Ring. When it is destroyed he loses the greater share of his pwer but he is not destroyed as well. He becomes a spirit unable to take physical form again.

    Also remember that Sauron existed long before the Ring was made, he existed before even Eä the universe existed. So in a real way yes the Ring is a tool. He made it to help himself dominate Middle-Earth.

  13. #13
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Memory of Laurelin
    Messages
    1 229
    Citation Envoyé par Meluihel Voir le message
    If I make a painting I pour part of myself into it, that is the nnature of creating something.-
    That's not the 'pouring of self' that's being discussed here; the world we live in doesn't have the kind of 'magic' Middle-earth has.
    Tolkien makes it quite clear that Sauron really puts himself into the Ring as he forges it; it would be akin to you... cutting your arm off and slapping it onto the painting, to put it rather crudely.

    Citation Envoyé par Meluihel Voir le message
    -When it is destroyed he loses the greater share of his pwer but he is not destroyed as well. He becomes a spirit unable to take physical form again.
    And when he lost it, that happened; think of the Battle of the Last Alliance. The Ring gets separated from Sauron, and Sauron essentially... collapses. He lost his physical form, and retired to gather his strength for 3000 years. People then thought Sauron was defeated, too.
    When the Ring gets destroyed, Sauron is implied to have ceased to be a threat, completely: without the Ring, he can't come back, anymore. At all.

    Citation Envoyé par Meluihel Voir le message
    Also remember that Sauron existed long before the Ring was made, he existed before even Eä the universe existed.-
    This is, imo, beside the point.
    I exist before any progeny I might have; that doesn't mean that the kids will be just 'tools'.

    As for the tool part... Personally, I don't think I naysaid that; on the other hand, I agree fully.
    Forgive me for going technical, but... the Ring is like a supercharger; it takes the power a thing has and amplifies it. But yet it has something more than an automated function, or at least certain characters seem to think it does; it's not just a missile heading for the target (Sauron).
    [center]Jestem tym, czym jestem.[/center]

  14. #14
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2007
    Messages
    313
    Citation Envoyé par Daeross Voir le message
    But yet it has something more than an automated function, or at least certain characters seem to think it does; it's not just a missile heading for the target (Sauron).
    Oh I quite agree, the Ring is definitely not passive even when separated from Sauron. What I was trying to convey is that since the One is almost literally part of Sauron's self, so saying the Ring has a measure of control over Sauron is the same as saying that your emotions have some control over you. Which is of course true. So separating Sauron's will and that of the Ring is hardly possible.

  15. #15
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2013
    Messages
    182
    Citation Envoyé par Daeross Voir le message
    That's not the 'pouring of self' that's being discussed here; the world we live in doesn't have the kind of 'magic' Middle-earth has.
    Tolkien makes it quite clear that Sauron really puts himself into the Ring as he forges it; it would be akin to you... cutting your arm off and slapping it onto the painting, to put it rather crudely.
    That's true, and I completely agree. So painting was probably a bad analogy. The dwarves would be a better one, but I'll get to that in a moment.


    And when he lost it, that happened; think of the Battle of the Last Alliance. The Ring gets separated from Sauron, and Sauron essentially... collapses. He lost his physical form, and retired to gather his strength for 3000 years. People then thought Sauron was defeated, too.
    When the Ring gets destroyed, Sauron is implied to have ceased to be a threat, completely: without the Ring, he can't come back, anymore. At all.
    Again I agree. But he was still able to regain some of his power after the Battle of Last Alliance. It took time, but he still did so, and more importantly he did it without possession of the Ring. If, let us pretend for a moment, that I have been given the power to manipulate matter. If I put that part of me into a... a hammer let's say, and that hammer is destroyed then so is my ability to manipulate matter. The same is true of Sauron and the Ring. He put a great share of his power into it. So when the Ring ceases to exist then so does that share of power. Sauron can no long take physical form, he is not longer a threat ext. But he does not cease to exist, because his essences exists outside of the Ring.


    This is, imo, beside the point.
    I exist before any progeny I might have; that doesn't mean that the kids will be just 'tools'.

    As for the tool part... Personally, I don't think I naysaid that; on the other hand, I agree fully.
    Forgive me for going technical, but... the Ring is like a supercharger; it takes the power a thing has and amplifies it. But yet it has something more than an automated function, or at least certain characters seem to think it does; it's not just a missile heading for the target (Sauron).

    You are right there. Even if part of me goes into any children I might have it does not make them tools. However my paiting was a bad analogy but so are your kids. The Ring has no will of its own outside of Sauron. What I mean is that yes it can choose to ensnare or leave someone but it cannot choose to betray Sauron. The Ring is in many ways like the dwarves when they were first made. They had no will, no life, outside of Aulë. If they spoke it was only because he wanted them to, if they spoke it was because he willed them too. Children on the other hand are free agents. They can, and often do, choose to work against their parents. The Ring however is not a free agent. It can no more choose to betray Sauron then that hammer can of its own choice decide to work against me. In that way the Ring is a tool. albeit a very stong very unique tool.
    Dernière modification par Meluihel ; 23/12/2013 à 10h31.

  16. #16
    Date d'inscription
    octobre 2012
    Messages
    169
    Something about Sauron

    I can not claim to completely understand the 'mechanics' involved (perhaps the author, himself, never even formalized them for his own mind), but I think it is important to remember that, by the end, Sauron had been cast-down three times.

    Firstly, his body was destroyed, S.A. 3319, in the downfall of Numenor: the One had been hidden elsewhere and (presumably when Sauron's fea returned to it) he was able to reincarnate a new hroa, but to never again "assume a fair form"; I do not know if it is anywhere revealed precisely how much time this reincarnation, itself, required but Sauron was again making war against the Numenorean exiles by S.A. 3429, only one hundred-ish years later.

    Secondly, he was "thrown down" in the duel with Gil-Galad and Elendil: the One again also survived but, this time, had been taken away; Sauron either regenerated his second hroa, or reincarnated again, but (presumably because the One Ring was 'lost' to him) this process required one thousand-ish years. This possibly-third incarnation, dependent upon the One Ring for its existence but not in possession of the One Ring, may not have been fully-corporeal (the only reference that comes readily to my mind is Gollum's remarks about the "black hand" [whom he described as missing one of its fingers] that "burns". As an aside, the 'burning eye' only appeared in the minds of the observers: no one who saw 'the Eye' was looking at Sauron, first-hand).

    Thirdly, Sauron 'evaporated', 'all by himself', when the One Ring was destroyed and everyone, including the narrator (whom we trust but, perhaps, we shouldn't ...), declared that He had been cast-down beyond all fear of recovery.

    Now, as for the One Ring ...

    Explicitly, the 'will' of the One Ring betrayed everyone who chose to possess It, excepting Sauron: It abandoned Isildur, who was subsequently slain; Déagol was murdered by Sméagol; Sméagol (aka Gollum) lost 'his ring' to Bilbo (twice-lost: physical misplacement, followed --and, perhaps, compounded-- by losing the riddle contest; hmmm, what gave Gollum the idea to propose this, rather than just try to murder Bilbo ... ?); Bilbo chose to not possess It and passed It on to Frodo (perhaps, just in time!); Frodo had his finger bitten-off, and the One Ring stolen from him (immediately after he decided to claim It for himself!); Gollum fell into the Cracks of Doom with It, and both were destroyed.

    However, one might dare to suggest that Sauron, also, had been betrayed: He had launched war against the Elves rashly, despising either the might or wrath of waxing Numenor (or both), to His grievous disadvantage; He was taken captive to Numenor (but the One Ring wasn't!), and later His body was destroyed in The Downfall (but the One Ring remained safe, and endured) ...

    I think such ideas demonstrate the subtlety, and continuity of theme, that the author meticulously infused into his work: there is a synergy between the failures of the machinations of malice, and the eucatastrophic serendipity of 'fate'.

    HoG

  17. #17
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2010
    Messages
    1 034
    HoG but when the ring is destroyed, Sauron aswell that means he poured most of himself into the ring, effectively destroyed once the ring was destroyed, ending his spirit.

  18. #18
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2013
    Messages
    182
    Citation Envoyé par Al. Voir le message
    HoG but when the ring is destroyed, Sauron aswell that means he poured most of himself into the ring, effectively destroyed once the ring was destroyed, ending his spirit.
    Actually no. When the Ring is destroyed Sauron is not destroyed. He loses most of his power, like being able to take on physical form again, and he no longer poses a threat to Middle-Earth. But his spirit still exists. Sauron is a Maiar, like Gandalf, which means even if his physical body is killed his spirit remains. At least until Dagor Dagorath after which Arda will be remade. After that? Who knows what will happen.
    Dernière modification par Meluihel ; 24/12/2013 à 17h39.

  19. #19
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2010
    Messages
    1 034
    Citation Envoyé par Meluihel Voir le message
    Actually no. When the Ring is destroyed Sauron is not destroyed. He loses most of his power, like being able to take on physical form again, and he no longer poses a threat to Middle-Earth. But his spirit still exists. Sauron is a Maiar, like Gandalf, which means even if his physical body is killed his spirit remains. At least until Dagor Dagorath after which Arda will be remade. After that? Who knows what will happen.
    You migth be right.

    An impotent spirit that it, whicout possibility of taking any kind of power and the ring was most of his power too.

  20. #20
    Date d'inscription
    octobre 2012
    Messages
    169
    Citation Envoyé par Al. Voir le message
    An impotent spirit that it, whicout possibility of taking any kind of power and the ring was most of his power too.
    It is indeed characterized as such, the black cloud that rears up and seems to extend a threatening hand, but is blown away by a strong wind from the west. IIRC, it was Aragorn & Co. on Dagorlad who witnessed this, very-shortly after Gandalf shouts something like, 'Stand fast! Now is the moment of doom!'.

    HoG

  21. #21
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Memory of Laurelin
    Messages
    1 229
    I wonder if people confuse the demise of the two Maiar as described in the Return of the King...

    Sauron:
    "And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell."

    Saruman:
    "To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."

    Meluihel:
    I agree, the kid-thing was a misstep. Was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote that, and couldn't think it through.

    You mention a hammer, and how it can't betray its maker, like the Ring can't betray Sauron. But the Ring is like a hammer in a world where there are no other hammers.
    As it is, I'm standing behind the idea that the reason the Ring can't betray Sauron is because... how can you betray yourself? The Ring and the Sauron are two pieces of a whole; they're both Sauron.

    As an aside...I don't think there's anything in this world that could be used to explain the Ring perfectly. There are things that share some of its qualities in myths, fairy tales... but nothing 'exact' jumps to my (holiday-addled) mind immediately.
    [center]Jestem tym, czym jestem.[/center]

  22. #22
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2013
    Messages
    182
    Citation Envoyé par Daeross Voir le message
    I wonder if people confuse the demise of the two Maiar as described in the Return of the King...

    Sauron:
    "And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell."

    Saruman:
    "To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."
    I have often wondered that as well throughout this conversation.

    As an aside...I don't think there's anything in this world that could be used to explain the Ring perfectly. There are things that share some of its qualities in myths, fairy tales... but nothing 'exact' jumps to my (holiday-addled) mind immediately.
    I could not agree with you more. Any analogy we make will always fall short in some way. I agree also, to an extent, that in some ways the Ring and Sauron are two parts of a whole. He poured part of himself into its making after all. The same could be said of Aulë and the drwarves too. They could not betray him in the beginning because how can Aulë betray himself? The difference of course being that Ilúvatar gave life to the dwarves.

    And that is the whole point really. The Ring's will is Sauron's will, it cannot betray him or choose against him, therefore it has no will of its own therefore Sauron, not the Ring, is master and in control. Sauron exists apat from, outside of, the Ring. He can, and in fact does, live on after the Ring. In a ruduced state and without much of his power yes but he still exists. Can the Ring claim those same qualities? I do not think it can. If someone had claimed the Ring for themselves Sauron would not simply cease to exist. And even when the Ring is destroyed he continues to exist. Seems pretty clear to me who is the master.

  23. #23
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2013
    Messages
    182
    Forgive me for the second post but I wanted to say, outside of my arguments in the post above, that wither any of us are right or wrong I have very much enjoyed the discussion over the last few days. I've looked forward to seeing a new post when I wake in the morning, then responding over a cup of tea, and I find myself checking back often throughout the day. This is, I think, the best discussion I've had on the forums in quite a while.

  24. #24
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Memory of Laurelin
    Messages
    1 229
    Citation Envoyé par Meluihel Voir le message
    I have very much enjoyed the discussion over the last few days. --- This is, I think, the best discussion I've had on the forums in quite a while.
    Ditto.
    Save that I refuse to take part in a (more serious) discussion if I feel like I'm more than just a couple of cards shy of a full deck... as I'm wont to, during holidays.
    [center]Jestem tym, czym jestem.[/center]

  25. #25
    Date d'inscription
    mai 2007
    Messages
    201
    Citation Envoyé par Meluihel Voir le message
    That's true, and I completely agree. So painting was probably a bad analogy. The dwarves would be a better one, but I'll get to that in a moment.




    Again I agree. But he was still able to regain some of his power after the Battle of Last Alliance. It took time, but he still did so, and more importantly he did it without possession of the Ring. If, let us pretend for a moment, that I have been given the power to manipulate matter. If I put that part of me into a... a hammer let's say, and that hammer is destroyed then so is my ability to manipulate matter. The same is true of Sauron and the Ring. He put a great share of his power into it. So when the Ring ceases to exist then so does that share of power. Sauron can no long take physical form, he is not longer a threat ext. But he does not cease to exist, because his essences exists outside of the Ring.





    You are right there. Even if part of me goes into any children I might have it does not make them tools. However my paiting was a bad analogy but so are your kids. The Ring has no will of its own outside of Sauron. What I mean is that yes it can choose to ensnare or leave someone but it cannot choose to betray Sauron. The Ring is in many ways like the dwarves when they were first made. They had no will, no life, outside of Aulë. If they spoke it was only because he wanted them to, if they spoke it was because he willed them too. Children on the other hand are free agents. They can, and often do, choose to work against their parents. The Ring however is not a free agent. It can no more choose to betray Sauron then that hammer can of its own choice decide to work against me. In that way the Ring is a tool. albeit a very stong very unique tool.
    I disagree with the last part, I believe that in a way it does have a will of it's own. It's a tool in the sense that it lacks the ability to reason, or act intelligently. But it is an uncontrollable force that manipulates and corrupts everything it touches, making it's victims the proverbial tools.

    How powerful is it's will? Sauron started the company from the ground up, and when he created the ring it was like going on the market to strengthen the company even more. And it worked, tremendously. But one thing he didn't count on, was the Ring becoming a 51% share holder. So now who owns the company? For all intents and purposes it's the one with the majority of the shares, and that is the Ring. Sauron can't wipe his but without the Ring's consent and I would venture to guess he would be forced to use the non-ring hand to complete that task! :P

 

 

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