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Discussion: Delete Skirmish Stats

  1. #1
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Seattle, WA
    Messages
    7 898

    Delete Skirmish Stats

    Following from https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...31#post6956631

    General

    We've discovered that a very significant chunk of time is spent during logon to read and calculate your skirmish stats. Instead of doing these calculations during logon, we will now do them after. Your Skirmish stats will then update in the background, as you play. This should allow some characters who have been unable to login due to a timeout to get into the game. Please note, your Skirmish stats will not display correctly until all of the processing is completed after logging in. Please note: Exiting the game or logging out your character before the skirmish data has finished updating may cause your client to crash. No data is lost or damaged if this occurs.
    Fixed an issue where objects/textures would not render correctly on some machines.
    These.things have been making my login times stupidly long for basically no good reason.

    I don't use these stats, don't care about them, and want them gone so I don't have to suffer any more of their effects.
    Dernière modification par Almagnus1 ; 12/10/2013 à 14h47. Motif: Linking to Patch Notes + Spell Checking.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  2. #2
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2011
    Messages
    449
    Deleting them outright won't be happening, but an option in UI Settings to disable the client-side calculation might be reasonable.

    I might even use that to avoid the slight post-login performance hit, though I don't expect that to be significant on my main rig. The boxen I used to play on would appreciate it, though. I'm sure a significant chunk of players would use such an option if it existed (and they knew about it).

  3. #3
    Date d'inscription
    juillet 2008
    Messages
    3 415
    After Monday's update (11.5), you won't suffer any longer. These statistics will be calculated in the background AFTER you log in.

  4. #4
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Seattle, WA
    Messages
    7 898
    Citation Envoyé par Fredelas Voir le message
    After Monday's update (11.5), you won't suffer any longer. These statistics will be calculated in the background AFTER you log in.
    I'd rather not take the performance hit to begin with.

    Never used them, and I want them gone.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  5. #5
    Date d'inscription
    février 2007
    Messages
    12 677
    Citation Envoyé par Almagnus1 Voir le message
    Never used them, and I want them gone.
    There shouldn't be any need to get rid of them. Lazy evaluation is often done to solve issues like this... they're only calculated when you first need them. If you never need them, then they're never calculated. Win/win, typically. The one problem can be that if it takes a very long time to do the calculations or gather the data, the first time you go use that feature in a given session, it might take a long time to come up. Then after that it's fast.

    I have no idea whether these can be reasonably done via lazy evaluation or not, but it would be nice if they could be.

    Khafar

  6. #6
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2011
    Messages
    449
    Citation Envoyé par Khafar Voir le message
    I have no idea whether these can be reasonably done via lazy evaluation or not, but it would be nice if they could be.
    Sounds like they're sending the raw data during login and the client crunches the numbers before the login process completes. I assume the only change will be to when the client crunches the numbers; it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to delay that indefinitely until the system needs it (say, when the user opens up the Skirmish Panel to look at the stats). If they changed the Skirm Panel around so that the Traits tab was default, even opening the panel wouldn't necessarily trigger the calculation.

    Such a delay might look a little bit like the delay a player sees on first accessing a vault during a given play session. You get a blank screen for a few seconds, while the vault contents are downloaded from the server. There's a similar delay when activating the quest log's "Show Completed Quests" option.

    My main problem with these delays is that they're input-blocking: the entire game seems to freeze up while the client processes the new data. You can't move for 5 seconds or so, and that makes the game feel positively antique. There's no reason I can't be typing in the chat window or casting skills at a mob while waiting for the completed quests to load.

    If they can avoid the input-blocking delay during the number crunching, I don't really care where they do it. If the input-blocking delay is a necessary evil, only doing the calculation when the skirm stats tab is first opened makes sense to me.

  7. #7
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2008
    Localisation
    Middle Earth, Arda
    Messages
    3 498
    The LOTRO Game Servers will be taken down on Monday October 14 from 7:00AM Eastern – 11:00AM Eastern (-4GMT) for Update 11.5. Your Skirmish stats will then update in the background, as you play. This should allow some characters who have been unable to login due to a timeout to get into the game.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Notes-Official

  8. #8
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Seattle, WA
    Messages
    7 898
    Citation Envoyé par Khafar Voir le message
    There shouldn't be any need to get rid of them. Lazy evaluation is often done to solve issues like this... they're only calculated when you first need them. If you never need them, then they're never calculated. Win/win, typically. The one problem can be that if it takes a very long time to do the calculations or gather the data, the first time you go use that feature in a given session, it might take a long time to come up. Then after that it's fast.

    I have no idea whether these can be reasonably done via lazy evaluation or not, but it would be nice if they could be.
    I would doubt that they could be done that way, since it was taking me ~5 minutes or so to log in. It rendered logging in on my laptop a futile exercise.

    And if they are what's really causing the login time, it (most likely) means the first few minutes after logging in are probably going to be pretty sluggish......
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  9. #9
    Date d'inscription
    août 2012
    Messages
    336
    Citation Envoyé par banjolier Voir le message
    an option in UI Settings to disable the client-side calculation might be reasonable.
    I'd like to see this implimented - not as a store brought disabler tho - as I don't think I've bothered looking at my skirm stats - only the skirm deeds.

    Exiting the game or logging out your character before the skirmish data has finished updating may cause your client to crash.
    IMO having a crash as a feature is not good programming. An option would be to disable logging out until the skirm info has updated, which would prevent unavoidable crashes from logging out alts to quickly.

  10. #10
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Seattle, WA
    Messages
    7 898
    Citation Envoyé par Tarlywyn Voir le message
    IMO having a crash as a feature is not good programming. An option would be to disable logging out until the skirm info has updated, which would prevent unavoidable crashes from logging out alts to quickly.
    Eh, I'd rather have them gone.

    What's the point of skirmish stats without the leaderboard?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  11. #11
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2011
    Localisation
    The Prancing Pony, usually I'm drunk in a corner
    Messages
    3 028
    Citation Envoyé par Almagnus1 Voir le message
    I'd rather not take the performance hit to begin with.

    Never used them, and I want them gone.
    You want them gone. Just because you want them gone doesn't mean we all do.

    Some of us like to do skirmishes every now and then

    Glorgnorbor
    Happy Halloween!
    Did everyone get a bugged signature? My BB code doesn't work anymore
    ____________________________
    [img]http://i.imgur.com/CnvXnLv.jpg[/img]
    [color=Orange]Glorgnorbor,[/color] [color=cyan][I]A Rock And A Hard Place,[/color][/I] [color=red]Stop by our Friday music shows! 4PM EST at the Bree West Gate on Dwarrowdelf![/color]
    [color=red]If a Malledhrim Soldier dies alone in the forest because of canceled quest, will it make a sound?[/color] ~Leixy

  12. #12
    Date d'inscription
    février 2007
    Messages
    12 677
    Citation Envoyé par Almagnus1 Voir le message
    What's the point of skirmish stats without the leaderboard?
    That's an odd statement. Many people like measuring sticks, even when just looking at their own characters - or perhaps doing some comparisons between them. It's like asking why anyone would want to time themselves on a run or walk unless it was at a track meet. Some won't, of course, but a non-trivial percentage of people will.

    The skirmish leaderboards were far and away the least used feature of the old forums, according to Sapience. Yet I'll bet a lot of the people who never looked (or cared) about those leaderboards would bring up their skirmish stats now and again. That certainly describes me. I quit looking at the leaderboards within a few weeks of Mirkwood's arrival... I simply didn't care. Still don't. But I like seeing some stats tracking what I've done while playing the game, quite independent of how anyone else does.

    Khafar

  13. #13
    Date d'inscription
    août 2012
    Messages
    336
    Citation Envoyé par Almagnus1 Voir le message
    Eh, I'd rather have them gone.
    I agree, I wouldn't miss them, as I never look at them. I was just pointing out previously a solution to prevent leaving people open to crashing while the info is updating, as it looks like the skirm info is here to stay for a while yet.

  14. #14
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Seattle, WA
    Messages
    7 898
    Citation Envoyé par robbie1435 Voir le message
    You want them gone. Just because you want them gone doesn't mean we all do.

    Some of us like to do skirmishes every now and then

    Glorgnorbor
    Happy Halloween!
    I want to clarify that I'm referring to the statistics that we can browse, NOT the skirmishes themselves.

    I run skirmishes myself, but have not looked at the statistics in years.

    Citation Envoyé par Khafar Voir le message
    That's an odd statement. Many people like measuring sticks, even when just looking at their own characters - or perhaps doing some comparisons between them. It's like asking why anyone would want to time themselves on a run or walk unless it was at a track meet. Some won't, of course, but a non-trivial percentage of people will.

    The skirmish leaderboards were far and away the least used feature of the old forums, according to Sapience. Yet I'll bet a lot of the people who never looked (or cared) about those leaderboards would bring up their skirmish stats now and again. That certainly describes me. I quit looking at the leaderboards within a few weeks of Mirkwood's arrival... I simply didn't care. Still don't. But I like seeing some stats tracking what I've done while playing the game, quite independent of how anyone else does.

    Khafar
    Yeah, I'd agree.... if it was anywhere close to right (I've only killed 3 monsters?), and had a playtime of 1 minute? **facepalm**

    Why spend the time processing information that's laughably wrong?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  15. #15
    Date d'inscription
    août 2012
    Messages
    336
    Citation Envoyé par Almagnus1 Voir le message
    I want to clarify that I'm referring to the statistics that we can browse, NOT the skirmishes themselves.
    I assumed that's what you were referring to - I don't agree to losing access to skirms I've paid for.

  16. #16
    Date d'inscription
    février 2007
    Messages
    12 677
    Citation Envoyé par Almagnus1 Voir le message
    Why spend the time processing information that's laughably wrong?
    Well, mine seems correct. Over 5K kills on the character I looked at, nearly 150 skirmishes total, a little over 4 per hour of gameplay. The other characters I looked at today seemed correct as well.

    Khafar

  17. #17
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2011
    Localisation
    The Prancing Pony, usually I'm drunk in a corner
    Messages
    3 028
    Citation Envoyé par Almagnus1 Voir le message
    I want to clarify that I'm referring to the statistics that we can browse, NOT the skirmishes themselves.

    I run skirmishes myself, but have not looked at the statistics in years.
    Have you viewed your marks and medallions recently?

    Those are considered skirm stats.

    Glorgnorbor
    Happy Halloween!
    Did everyone get a bugged signature? My BB code doesn't work anymore
    ____________________________
    [img]http://i.imgur.com/CnvXnLv.jpg[/img]
    [color=Orange]Glorgnorbor,[/color] [color=cyan][I]A Rock And A Hard Place,[/color][/I] [color=red]Stop by our Friday music shows! 4PM EST at the Bree West Gate on Dwarrowdelf![/color]
    [color=red]If a Malledhrim Soldier dies alone in the forest because of canceled quest, will it make a sound?[/color] ~Leixy

  18. #18
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2008
    Localisation
    The Highlands of Scotland
    Messages
    5 409
    Citation Envoyé par robbie1435 Voir le message
    Have you viewed your marks and medallions recently?

    Those are considered skirm stats.
    I rather doubt that they recalculate how many skirmish marks/medallions/seals every time you login. Common sense says they are just counters.

    Given that we no longer have the skirmish leaderboards on the website, there seems very little point in keeping these stats at all now.
    [COLOR=Red][B]TANSTAAFL[/B][/COLOR]

  19. #19
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2012
    Localisation
    Orem
    Messages
    786
    who would even think removing the marks and stats would be a good idea. in my opinion you would have to be crazy to want to remove skirmish stats.


    skirmish stats include
    A: Marks.
    B: Medallions.
    C: Seals.
    D: Superior Fourth Mark.
    E: Any mark or money type earned in a skirmish.
    F: How many skirmishes and instances you have done.

  20. #20
    Date d'inscription
    août 2012
    Messages
    336
    Citation Envoyé par mjk47 Voir le message
    I rather doubt that they recalculate how many skirmish marks/medallions/seals every time you login. Common sense says they are just counters.

    Given that we no longer have the skirmish leaderboards on the website, there seems very little point in keeping these stats at all now.
    Citation Envoyé par Zepherzaper Voir le message
    who would even think removing the marks and stats would be a good idea. in my opinion you would have to be crazy to want to remove skirmish stats.


    skirmish stats include
    A: Marks.
    B: Medallions.
    C: Seals.
    D: Superior Fourth Mark.
    E: Any mark or money type earned in a skirmish.
    F: How many skirmishes and instances you have done.
    Mmm - so which one is correct? It does seem odd they'd be recalculated each time you log in - the differences (when you spend some) would also need to be stored and then worked into the calculation as well. Seen as most, if not all, are account bound then each calculation would also take into account all alts activities on an account. If it's just the running total of how many an alt has earned, and not related to what's in the wallet - is this really needed?

  21. #21
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2012
    Localisation
    Orem
    Messages
    786
    Citation Envoyé par Tarlywyn Voir le message
    Mmm - so which one is correct? It does seem odd they'd be recalculated each time you log in - the differences (when you spend some) would also need to be stored and then worked into the calculation as well. Seen as most, if not all, are account bound then each calculation would also take into account all alts activities on an account. If it's just the running total of how many an alt has earned, and not related to what's in the wallet - is this really needed?
    well my comment was to the op and about there comment and there thread so I have nothing to do with that other person.

    and to be right both of us are correct because my comment and theirs were both pulled out of context.

  22. #22
    Date d'inscription
    août 2012
    Messages
    336
    Citation Envoyé par Zepherzaper Voir le message
    well my comment was to the op and about there comment and there thread so I have nothing to do with that other person.

    and to be right both of us are correct because my comment and theirs were both pulled out of context.
    K - just trying to figure out if the skirm stat info calculated at login for marks etc is just how much an alt has earned over it's lifetime, and not calculating how many marks etc you have in your wallet. If this is the case, then IMO I agree with the OP that it's not really needed.

  23. #23
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2008
    Localisation
    The Highlands of Scotland
    Messages
    5 409
    Retrieving the number of skirmish-related currency items should be no different to retrieving the amount of anything in your wallet. If the system was actually recomouting your entire skirmsh history and skirmish currency transactions to compute the current totals, that would be an act of immense programming folly.

    I am sure that what the calculatioon refers to is the hugely verbose statistics that the system keeps for every skirmish you ever do. If you bring up the Skirmish Panel, the amount of information is mind-boggling, and one has to serioudly question whther it is of any use or interest to anyone. When we had a Skirmish league table, then it had some relevance, but as it stands now, I would just delete the vast bulk of it.

    It may be that Turbine makes use of it for their data-mining studies of player behaviour, but as far as the in-game display is concerned, it should be computed on demand only, not every time you login. Even with the current computation in the background, it is still a huge waste of client-side resources if most players never bother to look at it. let those who want it choose to pay the price of calculating it. Don't assume that 100% of the players need to do it every time.
    [COLOR=Red][B]TANSTAAFL[/B][/COLOR]

  24. #24
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2008
    Localisation
    Middle Earth, Arda
    Messages
    3 498
    Citation Envoyé par Zepherzaper Voir le message
    well my comment was to the op and about there comment and there thread so I have nothing to do with that other person. and to be right both of us are correct because my comment and theirs were both pulled out of context.
    This tread is so over due. It should have being deleted yesterday. The OP is not requesting to remove the stadistics or the marks, of the skirmishes. He is requesting to remove the automatic chat that on logging was giving about the skirmishes. This was corrected on yesterday update.

  25. #25
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Seattle, WA
    Messages
    7 898
    Citation Envoyé par YamydeAragon Voir le message
    This tread is so over due. It should have being deleted yesterday. The OP is not requesting to remove the stadistics or the marks, of the skirmishes. He is requesting to remove the automatic chat that on logging was giving about the skirmishes. This was corrected on yesterday update.
    No, they "fixed" it by pushing the calculations to this "loaded" side of the character loading, which gives me the benefit of being able to play my captain on the laptop again.

    Howerver.... it still causes performance issues once I'm loaded, and I'd rather not have to deal with the slowdown to begin with.

    I have no use for the stats, I'd rather not waste my CPU cycles calculating information I do not care about.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

 

 
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