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  1. #151
    Date d'inscription
    juillet 2007
    Localisation
    Beaumont, Texas
    Messages
    210
    Excited. Bring on tomorrow!
    Bace- R14 Suicidal Minstrel and Kamikaze Karaoke King, Firefoot

  2. #152
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2007
    Messages
    2

    Thumbs down I don't understand

    I don't understand about comments like this. I know you're entitled to your own opinion and such, however if you feel this way, and others who have negative comments about the game, I've always been curious as to why you play?

    Citation Envoyé par bastiat1 Voir le message
    Look, here's the bottom line for all the haters. It's a casual solo game. It's built on the fundamental illusion of "character advancement". You are killing the same wolves in Rohan that you killed in Bree but the Rohan wolves are so much more 1337 than those wussies in Bree. You wouldn't stand a chance against them unless you were 85 because they create an artificial level difference function that enforces leveling up. But again, it's all an illusion. You don't have to be any better at playing your class. The only requirement is simply that you've played.

    Well, eventually people catch on to this illusion and Turbine needs a way to make people believe they are advancing even though they aren't. The game was designed for this by periodically giving away skills and earning traits. As the Developers point out there is a design limitation on continuously placating the casual illusion with new skills every couple of levels.

    The solution then is to do a one-time rewrite. You simply take away a bunch of skills and reduce effectiveness, but then given that effectiveness back over time as people level up to 205 or whatever. That keeps people thinking "wow, I'm much more 1337 now, hear me roar" every time their little experience bar flips. It's a good model for keeping people running cheap Kill Boar and Deliver Pie quests almost indefinitely without having to invest in more expensive / creative content.

    You could have a game that had no levels. One where people advanced based on achievements. But that doesn't fly here. Better to keep people on the koolaid.

  3. #153
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    7

    traits and trees

    First, i really love this game. Second, i am looking forward to a new challenge. Third, i appreciate the ambition of the developers. For as much as i enjoy the existing traits and skills and how they work. I am curious to see if the new format will make it easier and more understandable for me to spec out my character. It would be awesome if the trait trees could give immediate feedback in the form of numbers and graphs so that i as a player can decide how to adjust my traits in order to make my character stronger in different areas.

    I might be way off base, but it only makes sense to me that a new trait tree system would change from just a bunch of numbers to more or a visual presentation. For example in the existing system my character might have a resistance rating of 3,500. Well . . . how the heck do i know if that is at the top end or low end of the scale. Of course i can research it online ask friends and test out differences. But what i'm hoping for is more drastic differences in class traits along with clear and noticeable differences in trait trees that will be obvious to me when i play the game.

    Having played with a hunter and a mini and not having much different combat experiences at the lower level of the characters was kinda uncool. Not that they weren't both fun, but DPSing and killing at the same rate seems weird when minis and hunters are different classes.

    And back to my original point, if the developers can make clear differences with trait trees so that i try various way of fighting, AWESOME.

    Happy Hunting

  4. #154
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2008
    Localisation
    Pacific Northwest
    Messages
    4 345
    Citation Envoyé par BigFreeze Voir le message
    First, i really love this game. Second, i am looking forward to a new challenge. Third, i appreciate the ambition of the developers. For as much as i enjoy the existing traits and skills and how they work. I am curious to see if the new format will make it easier and more understandable for me to spec out my character. It would be awesome if the trait trees could give immediate feedback in the form of numbers and graphs so that i as a player can decide how to adjust my traits in order to make my character stronger in different areas.

    I might be way off base, but it only makes sense to me that a new trait tree system would change from just a bunch of numbers to more or a visual presentation. For example in the existing system my character might have a resistance rating of 3,500. Well . . . how the heck do i know if that is at the top end or low end of the scale. Of course i can research it online ask friends and test out differences. But what i'm hoping for is more drastic differences in class traits along with clear and noticeable differences in trait trees that will be obvious to me when i play the game.

    Having played with a hunter and a mini and not having much different combat experiences at the lower level of the characters was kinda uncool. Not that they weren't both fun, but DPSing and killing at the same rate seems weird when minis and hunters are different classes.

    And back to my original point, if the developers can make clear differences with trait trees so that i try various way of fighting, AWESOME.

    Happy Hunting
    I'm glad you're looking forward to this. The trait trees will not give feedback of any kind in the form of numbers and graphs to help you decide your traits. You won't have a visual presentation replacing your bunch of numbers. Your character will still have a bunch of numbers and your trait tree will be a bunch of pictures that shows skills you put points into. You will not have the exact same skills with the tree you do on your character now.

    The difference between a hunter and a mini at low levels is not nearly as drastic as it is at high levels. It's a huge dps difference at high levels pre-HD, and I believe it will be afterwards as well. The latest minstrel dps was difficult to test and it went from pathetic to oddly OP last week, and I'm not sure either are correct. My main is a minstrel and I don't like the way it plays now. At all. Your experience may be different than mine because you may not play yours the way I did - I was a raid healer primarily, with forays into the Ettenmoors and instance content. From what I hear the hunter was balanced better but since I didn't test it I can't say for sure.

    Your different trait trees will force you to choose a tree and basically stick with it. My experience is you're boxed in more, even with 2 trees to choose from between fights. It's more a case of you can do A) or you can do B), but you can't mix it up much. I miss the ability to mix and match what I could do.

    You'll have to see how you like it after Helms Deep. I hope you still have fun.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    GLADDEN SERVER
    Moochy, 105 Minstrel R10

  5. #155
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2012
    Localisation
    Croatia
    Messages
    425
    Citation Envoyé par Beaniemooch Voir le message
    From what I hear the hunter was balanced better but since I didn't test it I can't say for sure.
    You heard wrong. Losing so many vital skills (agile rejoinder, cry of the predator, ability to track stealth.. + all those I won't have since I won't be "properly" traited) isn't exactly well balance.
    But I totally agree with you, versatility has been killed.
    Trait trees have ruined the game

  6. #156
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2007
    Messages
    4 279
    Citation Envoyé par Beaniemooch Voir le message
    snip...
    Your different trait trees will force you to choose a tree and basically stick with it.
    You can pre-define trait tree setups. You can switch them in a few clicks when Out of Combat. You are not "stuck" with one and one only. You can do this anytime and anywhere without going to a bard or interrupting your questing plans (to return to a city to change up). You can buy extra slots for more pre-definitions too.

    You can also completely "re-spec" which is quite similar to what we do today when you change out your entire trait setup. This you can also do on-the-fly without going to a bard. The cost is roughly the same as doing a full change up in your traits today.

    Today there are numerous things you cannot do in combat like eat food, read scrolls, pop hope tokens. We will have to add 1 more item to the list: which pre-defined tree do I want for this quest?

    One very good advantage of the pre-defined setups is that I can change my setup from Solo Mode to Group Mode to Raid Mode (maybe even different Raid setups) as needed in a few clicks. If I'm in the "wrong mode" for my quest, a short pause between trash mobs and I can change up. No more problem if I forget to trait X or Y, I can change this as needed.

    You are not going to be stuck with Just One.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  7. #157
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2009
    Localisation
    St Louis Mo
    Messages
    1 999
    Sooo.. I get that you dont understand why people are upset. Lets try and splain.

    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    You can pre-define trait tree setups.
    Yep, with you there.

    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    You can switch them in a few clicks when Out of Combat.
    This is the problem. When I am DPSing and the tank dies I need to change and become a tank, not DPS. I cannot change that with a push of a button to change stance, the group instead has to wipe and then we have to hope we get the exact same scenario and rolls on hits dealt by us and the mob to get us to the same point where my respec has an advantage.

    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    You are not "stuck" with one and one only. You can do this anytime and anywhere without going to a bard or interrupting your questing plans (to return to a city to change up).
    No, true, I wont need to head to a bard to respec. I will be running back from a rez ring instead, with a repair bill.

    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    You can buy extra slots for more pre-definitions too.
    Does not help if I cannot use them in-combat.

    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    You can also completely "re-spec" which is quite similar to what we do today when you change out your entire trait setup. This you can also do on-the-fly without going to a bard. The cost is roughly the same as doing a full change up in your traits today.
    Umm.. I NEVER respec entirely. I change out 5 class traits and a legendary capstone, running me about 300 silver. And, on both my warden and my LM, I may do this twice a week. I hear something over a gold to wipe your spec and redo it?

    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    Today there are numerous things you cannot do in combat like eat food, read scrolls, pop hope tokens. We will have to add 1 more item to the list: which pre-defined tree do I want for this quest?
    We all understand that. See points above.

    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    One very good advantage of the pre-defined setups is that I can change my setup from Solo Mode to Group Mode to Raid Mode (maybe even different Raid setups) as needed in a few clicks. If I'm in the "wrong mode" for my quest, a short pause between trash mobs and I can change up. No more problem if I forget to trait X or Y, I can change this as needed.
    The ability to pre-define which traits I am wearing is actuallly pretty slick. I wish they could have just made that option available to us. However, it does not replace the need my guard/warden/champ/captain has to change from DPS stance to Tank stance IN COMBAT, WHEN THE MAIN TANK DIES, to keep the group from wiping.

    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    You are not going to be stuck with Just One.
    You ARE stuck with just one when you get in a situation and can not fix it until the group/raid runs back from the rez ring.

    Oh, and dont get me started about the classes that are support classes instead of with just a main job..

  8. #158
    Date d'inscription
    août 2009
    Messages
    3
    To mention that we can "respec" during questing without going to a bard is crazy talk. That is only benefitting squishy classes. My champ, guardian, and capt don't need to retrait EVER when just questing. And if that was their motive for doing the trait tree, then clearly they targeted the solo questing player for HD.

    Disappointing but I will hold my final opinions until after I get my hands on HD and see the final product! I hope it's good!

  9. #159
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Lumbercamp
    Messages
    363
    Citation Envoyé par BigFreeze Voir le message
    For example in the existing system my character might have a resistance rating of 3,500. Well . . . how the heck do i know if that is at the top end or low end of the scale. Of course i can research it online ask friends and test out differences. But what i'm hoping for is more drastic differences in class traits along with clear and noticeable differences in trait trees that will be obvious to me when i play the game.
    How about mousing over the 3,500? See? No change needed.
    [url=http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/index.php][img]http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/any/5/4/9/0/0/5654900bzdgw.png[/img][/url]

  10. #160
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2007
    Messages
    4 279
    Citation Envoyé par Planters Voir le message
    To mention that we can "respec" during questing without going to a bard is crazy talk. That is only benefitting squishy classes. My champ, guardian, and capt don't need to retrait EVER when just questing. And if that was their motive for doing the trait tree, then clearly they targeted the solo questing player for HD.

    Disappointing but I will hold my final opinions until after I get my hands on HD and see the final product! I hope it's good!
    Perhaps you missed the part that you have the option of doing so or that if you are called to off-tank, you can have a spec ready for that and if you are a main tank you can have something special in that line.

    If you have one version that works for you all the time, then resetting should never be an issue for you.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  11. #161
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    48
    Citation Envoyé par slashmcbain Voir le message
    Sorry if this has been covered somewhere else,
    while I don't see a problem with Trait Trees...in fact I quite like the idea, having played Star Wars Galaxies when they had a similar Skill Tree system, I thought it worked well and allowed for better customization, although theirs was even wider, you could be a Bounty Hunter and still put skills in Dancing Etc if you really want to?..When the Skill Trees were scrapped is when I and I think a lot of Galaxies players Left the game.
    But the Question I have is .. We will be getting a Free Respec I assume when it all changes? and if Deeds etc. count towards Trait Points, will already completed Deed be taken into account? ..My highest guy is only 58 Level, but I Imagine the Max level people, who have completed Most if not all the Area & Class deeds already will feel a little cheated if Deeds are not looked at in retrospec.
    Someone else might have answered this, but if not...

    You automatically get two trait trees to fill up with acquired skilled points (gained by levels) when you log into HD. All of your traits deeds will be grouped into 8 meta deeds which give one skill point each, so they do count.

    Hope this helps.

  12. #162
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Localisation
    Australia
    Messages
    1 896
    I am looking forward to seeing how well this is implemented, once it has been in a bit and fine-tuned. Too many classes these days try to be a bit of everything, clearer definition may be a good thing. Of course, how this works for classes which were meant to be hybrids will be something to watch for.
    The Balrog lives!! Oh, and give MECCG a try.

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000002be0/01008/signature.png]Eladrath[/charsig]

  13. #163
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2008
    Localisation
    Pacific Northwest
    Messages
    4 345
    Citation Envoyé par SabrielofLorien Voir le message
    Perhaps you missed the part that you have the option of doing so or that if you are called to off-tank, you can have a spec ready for that and if you are a main tank you can have something special in that line.

    If you have one version that works for you all the time, then resetting should never be an issue for you.
    If you're called to off-tank in combat, you can't switch. If you need to main-tank in combat, you can't switch. That's the problem for many people. If something goes wrong they've lost their "oh-####" ability to fill in til order is restored.

    My issue with resetting a tree (regardless of cost) is that you have to reset all points. So I have to reapply 65 points (at level 95, if I've done all the deeds) as opposed to swapping one or two traits, or even seven. And I still won't get the flexibility I had before, which is a deal breaker for me on the minstrel.

    I appreciate you're a fan. I'm not. Everybody will see for themselves how it works for their characters tomorrow and be able to make whatever choices works best for them. *shrug* Like it or not, here it comes.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    GLADDEN SERVER
    Moochy, 105 Minstrel R10

 

 
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