Dev Diary: Trait Trees in Helm's Deep

[Kaynith]

My two coppers:

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

- Robert A. Heinlein

I also don't forget how to bake a cake IRL just because I learned how to mow the lawn.

[Seschat]

Sooner, or later...
Time will tell.

So stop complaining before you've actually played the new system. Changes are good. Big changes are better than just good.(

No. Change is change, it is neither inherently good nor bad, despite what Corporate America tells us. The benefit or quality of a change can only be determined by thorough analysis. And since I wasn't blessed enough to get into closed Beta, I, like most of the posters in these public forums, don't have access to said analysis. And in the human condition, ignorance breeds (frequently legitimate) paranoia. I just ask that people stop telling the complainers that their worries aren't legitimate, because there is no proof either way at this time.

Thank you.

[Namesse]

Thanks for this, but I'm left with some questions.
1) HD takes us to lvl95, by the time we get to Mordor we will be much higher (probably about 120) - will the trait trees be obviously incomplete to show where future development will go? Or will they be complete, and all future development just cramming more skills into the existing structure (exactly what HoarseDev said is the current problem)?

It's likely that the skill trees will be changed around in some regard with every expac and update, either reworking costs or bonuses or base skills. It's also possible that as you continue past 95, that the trees adjust the cost of skills, or higher level skills now require more points spent to achieve the same skill set.

Think about a skill that you have to spend 3 points to get 300 mastery, with the future expac that skill may now be 4 points to get 300 mastery. It could very well be the illusion of progress in that you have more points to spend as you level to 105 and beyond, but if the devs say the goal is to limit what you can do out of your chosen skill line, giving you more points to become more powerful out of your skill line isn't something they're going to let get out of hand.

Exactly how they're going to handle it isn't known yet, so everyone needs to accept the stated goal that they want you to specialize, and they will work the tree to ensure that you don't have an opportunity to gain too many skills out of your specialization.

[GrandCru]

Are there OOC skills (working out of combat and/or not putting in combat, like buff/debuff), or traits improving such skills, that are exclusive to a Trait Tree?
If yes, what's the point of making them exclusive to a Trait Tree if I can change at will Tree spec. while out of combat?

[Gottapee]

My re-occuring theme captured in a picture that I use for Turbine and WB.

[Seschat]

This is exactly the stuff I've been chirping on the forums here since the skill trees were announced. Hopefully people will give more weight to a dev saying it. There is no freaking use for 4 full skillbars, that does not make for a fun game, yet people seem to still want to argue for it. I want to know my skills and love my skills. Right now all my characters feel so blended and watered down. There needs to be some real separation between character builds. Thank you, Turbine, can't wait!

I'll have to disagree with you here. I used and enjoyed 4 full skillbars in FF XI, plus convenient pull-down menu for less used skills (does anyone use their rez power often enough to keep it in their skill bar?). In City of Heroes, I routinely used four skillbars, five on my Masterminds (pet class). Here, my lvl 62 Lore-master and lvl 54 Rune-Keeper have four full bars, plus the travel plug in (and the LM has a 5th for all the pet skills)

Want to clear up screen real estate? Give us a pull-down menu so I don't lose track of my res skill in the weeks between the times I use it. Give me the ability to change the icons to words so I can tell my skills apart visually rather than by muscle-memory (play a friend's setup sometime, do you really remember the differences between two swords-with-a-swoosh on red background skills?). Want to make the skills exciting? MAKE THEM EXCITING! A 2% accuracy debuff is hardly worth the time used to activate the power (this is something I'm hoping IS part of the HD changes).

[Fredelas]

What happens when you keep mixing different paint colors? You get an underwhelming sort of brown color.

I'd like to point out that if you mix red, yellow, and blue paint alongside each other, you get a beautiful rainbow. I'm truly going to miss LOTRO's beautiful rainbow of class trait selections.

[Cheery]

You get 2 trees. I'll probably buy the third. If you have done your deeds, you'll have access to the same abilities that you have now (not necessarily the same skills, but the same kinds of skills). The main difference that I see is that you have to choose your role before going into battle. In solo situations, we'll learn what we need pretty fast. In group situations, the group will need to plan more. Kins will learn how to do that. PUGs will become more frustrating and will generate more "ignores".

[monk_tbd]

You get 2 trees. I'll probably buy the third.

Where did you get this information?

All I know is that we get two slots to save our configurations for free and can buy more if needed like with the MC trait trees whereas with MC we had to buy additional trait tree lines (or have them included when buying the RoR expansion) I did not see any comment that this will be the same with the class trait trees.
However you can always respec a certain configuration by spending silver.

All we know is that the current f2p locked traits will be transitioned into reduced amount of available bonuses for the trait lines.

[Tyveil]

I'll have to disagree with you here. I used and enjoyed 4 full skillbars in FF XI, plus convenient pull-down menu for less used skills (does anyone use their rez power often enough to keep it in their skill bar?). In City of Heroes, I routinely used four skillbars, five on my Masterminds (pet class). Here, my lvl 62 Lore-master and lvl 54 Rune-Keeper have four full bars, plus the travel plug in (and the LM has a 5th for all the pet skills)

Want to clear up screen real estate? Give us a pull-down menu so I don't lose track of my res skill in the weeks between the times I use it. Give me the ability to change the icons to words so I can tell my skills apart visually rather than by muscle-memory (play a friend's setup sometime, do you really remember the differences between two swords-with-a-swoosh on red background skills?). Want to make the skills exciting? MAKE THEM EXCITING! A 2% accuracy debuff is hardly worth the time used to activate the power (this is something I'm hoping IS part of the HD changes).

It has nothing to do with screen real estate. It has to do with having a reasonable amount of skills to use in any single encounter. Just because other games do it doesn't make it good. Think of chess, there are only 6 different piece types on the board, but there are infinite strategies with those pieces. If chess had 40 different types of pieces, it would water down each of the pieces strengths and usefulness, and it would most definitely make it less enjoyable. There is no sense to processing 40 available skills at a time. Yes it's possible, it's just not fun for 90% of us or it turns into (semi-intelligent) button mashing. It also is not any fun building these watered down characters, where most of our choices make little difference.

[Seschat]

It has nothing to do with screen real estate. It has to do with having a reasonable amount of skills to use in any single encounter. Just because other games do it doesn't make it good. Think of chess, there are only 6 different piece types on the board, but there are infinite strategies with those pieces. If chess had 40 different types of pieces, it would water down each of the pieces strengths and usefulness, and it would most definitely make it less enjoyable. There is no sense to processing 40 available skills at a time. Yes it's possible, it's just not fun for 90% of us or it turns into (semi-intelligent) button mashing. It also is not any fun building these watered down characters, where most of our choices make little difference.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here: where you see watered down, I see rich tapestry of options. DCUO limits you to six powers, and I find that frustratingly unplayable, and reduced to mindless button mashing.

YMMV

[Belnavar]

I'd like to point out that if you mix red, yellow, and blue paint alongside each other, you get a beautiful rainbow. I'm truly going to miss LOTRO's beautiful rainbow of class trait selections.

That doesn't change the fact that if you mix the three colours together, you get brown. I think we've gone more brown than rainbow over the years.

DCUO limits you to six powers, and I find that frustratingly unplayable, and reduced to mindless button mashing.

I would be very surprised if we were reduced to six skills, and I would agree with you if that were the case. The devs have already said in Twitter chats that the rough goal is 20 something skills, not counting things like ports. It will be interesting to count just how many skills we end up with, as presumably we will be able to make some hybrid builds that can acquire more.

-Bel

[Mar-Evayave]

You get 2 trees. I'll probably buy the third. If you have done your deeds, you'll have access to the same abilities that you have now (not necessarily the same skills, but the same kinds of skills). The main difference that I see is that you have to choose your role before going into battle. In solo situations, we'll learn what we need pretty fast. In group situations, the group will need to plan more. Kins will learn how to do that. PUGs will become more frustrating and will generate more "ignores".

I think you may be confusing the trees themselves with the specs. Everyone gets access to all three trees and can spend however they wish. What we get free is 2 trait specs or configurations, with more (unannounced #) of more spec slots that we can purchase. it's the same way the Mounted Combat trees will work. We get all 3 trees and 2 free spec slots. The only thing with MC that had to be purchased was light/medium steeds, and since that doesn't apply to our own classes, I'm not sure what has given you the impression that we have to pay for a third tree.

[podgie_bear]

That doesn't change the fact that if you mix the three colours together, you get brown. I think we've gone more brown than rainbow over the years.

I would be very surprised if we were reduced to six skills, and I would agree with you if that were the case. The devs have already said in Twitter chats that the rough goal is 20 something skills, not counting things like ports. It will be interesting to count just how many skills we end up with, as presumably we will be able to make some hybrid builds that can acquire more.

-Bel

The big question is what 20 skills isn't it? And are those skills going to provide different results depending on stance in the way that 'Major Ballad' does for a Minstrel in/out of War Speach? Having just 20 skills is not a lot for classes with more than one possible role to play, so those skills are going to have to be VERY carefully selected and balanced or the classes are going to end up being dumbed down to a very low level!

[JTollers]

This is expected. Many old-time players are only waiting the moment when they can say: "Look, you updated the game, it is now unplayable, I quit".
However, I see it only as an excuse. I can understand it. Someone who spent a couple of years on certain sort of activity, get tired of it, no fun anymore. Can not quit without reason, looking for reason and yep, here's the reason: the game has been changed and it became unplayble in personal opinion.

While, at the same time, newcomers will be (or will not be) happy with the new system. It may be better, it may be worse. We have yet to see it.
One thing is certain. Many old-timers will find upcoming change a good excuse to leave the LOTRO boat.

It IS expected. Well, by me, in any case

What are you suggesting?...that Turbine's revenue strategy is on acquisition, not pull through or retention?

[Dmaic]

Once upon a time, there was a game that had different classes that performed different roles. Solo content ranged from easy to difficult based on the class played. People dealt with the variation of the solo content for the dynamics of group instances that required each of the different roles.

Then people started to complain about the group content. It was too difficult to find 5 people that could fill the various roles needed. For some, it was too difficult to find 5 people at all. Something had to be done. The game then changed to include group content designed for less than 6 people.

Small fellowship content led to complaints about the need for the standard tank/heals/dps roles required for completion, while the design of the content forced less of a reliance on the debuff and cc roles initially designed for certain classes. Hybrid classes and those that didn't fill those standard molds were cast aside. Something had to be done. Insert better tanking/healing/dps for those classes.

As the game moved along, those hybrid classes with the ability to tank/heal/dps became more powerful than the standard tank/heal/dps only classes. Something had to be done. Insert hybrid roles for those standard classes.

Fast forward to today, where hybrid classes are left far more powerful as upgrades to the tanking/healing/dps made them most flexible to handle the small fellowship content. The benefit of having a "tanking only", "healing only" or "dps only" class is gone. Something had to be done.

In the future, it appears as if each class will have to choose prior to a battle which role they will fill. The questions that remain are many, but the main concern is for small fellowship content as it relates to the non-standard class types. Will debuffing and cc go the way of the dinosaur? How does that affect those classes originally designed with those roles in mind? Will every class have some build that permits it to tank/heal/dps/debuff/cc? If so, why are there different classes at all?

The moral of the story seems to be that giving us everything we ask for has led to the need to swing the pendulum the other way. My hope is that trait trees will allow for the initial class designs to show new life (possibly at the expense of balancing small fellowship content). Others will detest this concept. My fear is that trait tree specialization will destroy the uniqueness of classes even more than it already is. If everyone can make a comparable dps build, why would anyone choose a class that doesn't have a true option for the other 2 standard roles (tank/heal)?

[Iozeph]

Bland? Lotro's classes -even after all this time- aren't bland. Rather they're as bland, or complex, as you wish to play them. But you're breaking that, aren't you?

What then? Are the fools you're catering to with this coming pretend-expansion unable to click and drag an ability off of their bars in order to witness more of this game's long past aging artworks? No? Why must others suffer for -and I won't say ineptitude- but rather laziness? Why?

There's nothing wrong with the traits we now have, nor the skills. Nothing wrong that taking five minutes and reading a bloody tool tip shouldn't mend. They work. They do what they say. Or is the next pretend-expansion after this catering to the 'redeng iz dum' set? Lord of the Rings Online: Siege of Gondor, "Now with Pretty Colour Mashy Buttons!™"

If you'd wanted to strike boldly whilst 'cutting the fat' from parts of lotro that truly needed the trimming -why did you never have rid of legendary items? You've said classes are become bland- that they need further focusing, and a feeling of growth. Then why not take all the legacies we have now and use them as the foundations of your new trees? A tree apart from the traits yet which builds on them and grows as we level? You'd still have a feeling of growth from level one, while leaving the choosing for further complexity where it is. Why not this- why not please so many more of us, and elegantly so? Is it more to do with keeping guaranteed seller -legendary item augmenters- in your cash shop? Or it that such a system would actually function as legendary items should have done all along?

Without legendary items, we could have crafter's wares -weapon smiths, woodworkers etc.- matter once again - more than as offhand weapons or pullers for tanks. Without legendary items we could have the loots- even weapons loots from instancing and skirmishing and yes, even raiding, matter again in turn. You could fold in some of the augmenters -the stat and damage items we have from quartermasters -Beleriand, Ancient Dwarf, Westernesse- to function with regular loot and crafted weapons. And who knows? Players might even want to try and spend an outting in the barrows or Moria or Annuminas, what more the other places you'd given us in the last few years, if they only knew they might find a lovely new sword or mace or bow or axe or whatever within. I know I'm not the only soul who loves weapons with unique textures and meshings. And there again are the cosmetic slots for weapons, what more dyeing for shields and other off hand items so many have begged for.

As it is now- as it is with everything I've read about Helm's Deep, nothing's truly changed or changing. Blandness was come before in the shape of overarching currencies -medallions etc.- and should only grind onward with Big Battles. Come November, after having played the same battles endlessly- and for some this will begin as early as level ten- we'll all of us spend on the same armours and jewelry rather than finding them, looting them, from the dungeons and world we explore. What we'll have -and should this pay handsome for you- for years to come is yet another and another and another set of grinds. Bland and wearing grinds where, having reached whatever their endings, we'll have naught but more standing about in the hub cities of the moment, dressed up with nowhere to go.

Recall when you'd said before, when you'd taken daily skirmishing rewards away, that you'd given us the fellowship finder -the thing that punished us for choosing rather than taking random instancings- so that players would play more than the same one or two dungeons that gave the best rewards for time spent. Rather than say, tweaking those other dungeons to make them worth playing. But now, here you're come, turned about, and done one better _or worse- and given us an even narrower path! No random loots, no nothing, gathered in one place with naught but a bar for marking how much mind-numbing tedium we've set through and how much further tedium we've left before we're given one of your dubious treats.

Here you are, ushering in some of the worst McGaming I've ever seen, and you've the gall to run on about blandness?

For that, and for all of it yet to come, I feel you lot at Turbine should be ashamed.

[GrayTalon]

Ground targeted skills? I run without the mouse, so these will be more or less useless for me. I hope they aren't useful skills, or that there are classes that don't have them, or that they are 95% as effective targeted on a fellow/enemy.

[Steer]

Blarg! Skill Trees, huh? Man I really REALLY want to see the MMO industry get away from that design. SWtOR is where my loathing for that mechanic really hit its stride. It completely turned me off that game. Skill Trees are just so restrictive, so two-dimensional. They give this illusion of choice and flexibility, but it's so horribly far from that. I'm FORCED to go through tiers of #### that I DON'T want. Staring at a Skill Tree is a ball-punchingly frustrating exercise in excitement at what COULD be, coupled with annoyance I what I have to go through (stuff I don't want) to get it. And every time I look at one of those trees, every time I spend a point in some craptacular throw-away skill that I don't want, my interest in playing the game diminishes. Every time I click that button and waste a point, a little part of my MMO soul dies. Just sayin'.

I dunno, I hear what the dev's are talking about with the complexity of open-ended systems, and how you can get painted into a corner (ALOTTA corners). But this is not the answer. This is a step BACKWARDS in MMO design. And I'm not one of those that thinks every MMO has to be a step forward either, far from it. I just hate to seem a game take such a tired, lukewarm, homogenized step backwards.

NOTE: It is, of course, way too late to change anything now. The wheels are turning. Just wanted to voice my opinion.

[Tyveil]

Staring at a Skill Tree is a ball-punchingly frustrating exercise in excitement at what COULD be, coupled with annoyance I what I have to go through (stuff I don't want) to get it. And every time I look at one of those trees, every time I spend a point in some craptacular throw-away skill that I don't want, my interest in playing the game diminishes. Every time I click that button and waste a point, a little part of my MMO soul dies. Just sayin'.

Turbine has stated their goal is to make every skill useful, no throwaway skills, that's a part of the overall skill reduction. The only thing the tree does is restrict you from getting some skills until you have level'd up enough. The only difference between this and a min level requirement is the skill tree gives you a bit more flexibility at what level you can unlock certain skills.

[Darlgon]

Turbine has stated their goal is to make every skill useful, no throwaway skills, that's a part of the overall skill reduction. The only thing the tree does is restrict you from getting some skills until you have level'd up enough. The only difference between this and a min level requirement is the skill tree gives you a bit more flexibility at what level you can unlock certain skills.

Funny you mention that..

Another important note is that, with the exception of some special Gambits and skills which are found in the trees, almost all Gambits will be granted by level, regardless of your specialization.

Soo.. they are doing EXACTLY the opposite of what you said, granting most skills INDEPENDENT of the skill trees. Or, is that what you said and I am too tired to figure it out, now that I am looking at it? Well, they are putting skills behind levels.. (warden skills are called gambits, for non wardens) Ssigh.. Crash time for Bonzo.

[Jenara]

Once upon a time, there was a game that had different classes that performed different roles. Solo content ranged from easy to difficult based on the class played. People dealt with the variation of the solo content for the dynamics of group instances that required each of the different roles.

Then people started to complain about the group content. It was too difficult to find 5 people that could fill the various roles needed. For some, it was too difficult to find 5 people at all. Something had to be done. The game then changed to include group content designed for less than 6 people.

Small fellowship content led to complaints about the need for the standard tank/heals/dps roles required for completion, while the design of the content forced less of a reliance on the debuff and cc roles initially designed for certain classes. Hybrid classes and those that didn't fill those standard molds were cast aside. Something had to be done. Insert better tanking/healing/dps for those classes.

As the game moved along, those hybrid classes with the ability to tank/heal/dps became more powerful than the standard tank/heal/dps only classes. Something had to be done. Insert hybrid roles for those standard classes.

Fast forward to today, where hybrid classes are left far more powerful as upgrades to the tanking/healing/dps made them most flexible to handle the small fellowship content. The benefit of having a "tanking only", "healing only" or "dps only" class is gone. Something had to be done.

In the future, it appears as if each class will have to choose prior to a battle which role they will fill. The questions that remain are many, but the main concern is for small fellowship content as it relates to the non-standard class types. Will debuffing and cc go the way of the dinosaur? How does that affect those classes originally designed with those roles in mind? Will every class have some build that permits it to tank/heal/dps/debuff/cc? If so, why are there different classes at all?

The moral of the story seems to be that giving us everything we ask for has led to the need to swing the pendulum the other way. My hope is that trait trees will allow for the initial class designs to show new life (possibly at the expense of balancing small fellowship content). Others will detest this concept. My fear is that trait tree specialization will destroy the uniqueness of classes even more than it already is. If everyone can make a comparable dps build, why would anyone choose a class that doesn't have a true option for the other 2 standard roles (tank/heal)?

Very nicely summarized, Dmaic, this exactly the way I see the progression/degression as well. It appears we've come full circle, back to "MMORPG standardized" tank/healer/DPS. Maybe the next true innovative game will see this old paradigm retired. At one point I thought that innovative game was going to be Lotro, but it appears I was wrong. Maybe they got tired of swimming upstream and bucking the current.

Although it appears you're one who wants to see the standardization come back, while I do not.

[Dunford]

Thank you for this diary. It makes much more sense than the previous comments that were posted saying that the changes were to 'allow players to experience the trait system from Level 1' or 'the new trait system will allow for more class diversity', neither of which seemed plausible to me.

I understand the desire to reduce quick slot clutter, remove unused/underused skills, and make future content development easier.

My question is, why can't you do those things and still maintain the buffet style approach to selection of traits? Why does consolidation of skills require abandonment of the existing trait selection mechanic?

I despise trait trees. They force players into cookie cutter builds and gate important skills (that can presently be selected by anyone that has earned them) behind skills that may otherwise be unattractive to the specific player's play style.
One of the strengths of LotRO, in my opinion, was the flexibility to configure your class the way YOU liked it, not the way the devs like it. It made every player of a class a bit more unique.
With a trait tree system, that flexibility and uniqueness will, at least to a large extent, be gone.

[Egilric]

Turbine has stated their goal is to make every skill useful, no throwaway skills,

Turbine have also stated they fixed Draigy, sorted out MC lag etc.

Guess what, they haven't.

All The Best

[Leixy]

Draig has worked fine for my groups and I, not sure how you guys are bugging it now.

also, war-steeds are fantastic now. if you're still having trouble, something I found helps regardless of how good your computer, is to set your "Frill Distance" in graphics settings to low or off while on war-steed.