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  1. #1
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    144

    Recent Downtime Compensation Completed

    Recent Downtime Compensation Completed



    Hello, everyone! We are writing to let people know that we have completed our work to extend active VIP subscription time by two days, and distributed 250 Turbine Points to Lifetime accounts, as our way to thank people for their patience during technical issues that took place in early September. We thank you for playing LOTRO, and we’ll see you in-game!

    In response to the above post by Cordovan in regards to the September Log-In issues as well as down-time, I applaud that some re-compensation has been given; however, as a Premium Player that has purchased every expansion and every available map in the game and spent well over 20,000 turbine points on various parts of the game both game-related as well as cosmetically for Nine Toons and every Pre-Purchase release of the game since Rise Of Isengard I think that premium players need a little love too!

    Sure I could spend $15 dollars a month for 500 tp, access to the Moars, quick-travel, etc.; but I've bought numerous in-store game cards when they used to be sold at major retailers, as well as more recently using the Lotro Store to purchase them directly. Just because I don't spend that $15 a month doesn't mean I haven't supported this game and continue to support it.

    Without the premium players out there, the VIP players most likely wouldn't even have a game to support as most of the monetary compensation coming in to Turbine/WB is from the premium player base not the subscribers, let alone some guy that bought a pre-purchase of the game back when it first came out and is now considered a lifer because of this and is constantly rewarded with free tp or other perks.

  2. #2
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2009
    Messages
    1 495
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    Recent Downtime Compensation Completed



    Hello, everyone! We are writing to let people know that we have completed our work to extend active VIP subscription time by two days, and distributed 250 Turbine Points to Lifetime accounts, as our way to thank people for their patience during technical issues that took place in early September. We thank you for playing LOTRO, and we’ll see you in-game!

    In response to the above post by Cordovan in regards to the September Log-In issues as well as down-time, I applaud that some re-compensation has been given; however, as a Premium Player that has purchased every expansion and every available map in the game and spent well over 20,000 turbine points on various parts of the game both game-related as well as cosmetically for Nine Toons and every Pre-Purchase release of the game since Rise Of Isengard I think that premium players need a little love too!

    Sure I could spend $15 dollars a month for 500 tp, access to the Moars, quick-travel, etc.; but I've bought numerous in-store game cards when they used to be sold at major retailers, as well as more recently using the Lotro Store to purchase them directly. Just because I don't spend that $15 a month doesn't mean I haven't supported this game and continue to support it.

    Without the premium players out there, the VIP players most likely wouldn't even have a game to support as most of the monetary compensation coming in to Turbine/WB is from the premium player base not the subscribers, let alone some guy that bought a pre-purchase of the game back when it first came out and is now considered a lifer because of this and is constantly rewarded with free tp or other perks.
    Lifers didn't buy a pre-purchase of the game--they spent at least $199 for the permanent subscription arrangement. And Turbine has never released data on which group (f2p, premium, vip, lifer) brings in what amount of revenue, so there is no basis for the claim that premiums carry the game. But besides those minor points, I agree--the downtime affected everybody, so my personal opinion is that compensation for major snafus should be awarded to everybody who has logged in during the last month, including premium and f2p. After all, premium and f2p are the players who rely most on access to the game in order to earn tp to keep going, and therefore the most directly affected by the downtime. Active players should be treated equally in these situations.

  3. #3
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    144

    Post

    Citation Envoyé par Whart Voir le message
    Lifers didn't buy a pre-purchase of the game--they spent at least $199 for the permanent subscription arrangement. And Turbine has never released data on which group (f2p, premium, vip, lifer) brings in what amount of revenue, so there is no basis for the claim that premiums carry the game. But besides those minor points, I agree--the downtime affected everybody, so my personal opinion is that compensation for major snafus should be awarded to everybody who has logged in during the last month, including premium and f2p. After all, premium and f2p are the players who rely most on access to the game in order to earn tp to keep going, and therefore the most directly affected by the downtime. Active players should be treated equally in these situations.
    In effect Lifers did pre-purchase this game however you want to mince words. They took a gamble to support a fledgling company that was going to challenge the behemoth that WOW was and continues to be. They took a risk to buy content that might not exist or they might not like one month to six months down the road. They took the risk to enable LOTRO to raise the necessary capital at that time to pay for expenses that that company needed to run such as expenses, advertising, salaries, and development. They were in effect the initial financial investors in a new company and deserve their continued rewards of 500 free TP per month. But lets break that down if we will.

    April 24, 2007 original release date: September 2010 F2P release. 500tp X 3 Years=18,000. Convert that cost to a VIP and we come up with the amount of approximately $780 equivalent cost for that 78 months of access to the same content and 500tp per month at the reduced yearly cost of $10 per month if you get a 12 month subscription or $1140 dollars if they purchased at the $15 per month cost. For a Premium player to purchase a similar amount of tp would cost approximately $200 at the higest tp purchase amount. Most Premium players don't purchase the highest tier tp model and instead usually spend the $19.99 version which equals to around $239 approximately to get the same amount of tp. So a VIP player from original date has paid the most, the Premium player the next amount, and the Lifetimer the least out of all the paying customers if we don't count expansion purchases or additional Turbine Points beyond this rate. This of course doesn't take into account inflationary costs or the likelihood of a VIP player paying for every month of subscription since the games inception.

    Moving on to the data on LIFER>VIP>Premium>F2P income dynamics.

    According to Superdataresearch.com website the below has occurred in f2p games:

    Did you know that free-to-play MMO gamers in the US spent over $200 million in June 2013?

    The Average U.S. monthly f2p player spent just around $15 dollars in May of 2012, just 5 months later that average had doubled to $31.87.

    On http://simple-n-complex.blogspot.com...ub-strata.html the following data was available which pulled their data from the log-in game time available from X-fire in 2010 and a podcast release from Ten Ton Hammer where Turbine announced their revenue numbers.

    Lord of the Rings Online


    Still our Number 1 game of the X-Fire chart listings on my site. This number proves interesting historically as well. Just last week on the Ten Ton Hammer podcast, Turbine had announced tripling of revenue since going free to play. This helps corroborate some older data too...if the X-Fire Game can be trusted.

    A post from March of 2010 was done playing the X-Fire sub game (SOURCE) which did the calc before LOTRO went free to play. They had 213,689 subs according to the math. Triple that and we get 641k. That is SCARY close to what we have now. The only concern is that maybe not all of these players can be considered monthly due to the Free to play mechanic. But, I am not one to argue with the Karmic like nature of the math here.

    You are right that there isn't any LOTRO specific data on VIP>Premium>F2P, other than the above podcast in 2010 of income being triple what it was prior to the introduction of F2P. However, the data out there supports that overall conversions of MMO's, MMORPG's, On-line games, Android/IOS games, and console game micro-transactions vs. subscriptions have more than doubled and sometimes tripled the amounts that were previously purchased when games were subscription only. To say that LOTRO is any different than the rest of the games out there that have converted from VIP to F2P is a broad-generalization on your own part; and ludicrous in its very statement. Why else do you think so many companies have gone F2P then that their own marketing research supports that the overall income benefits more than outweigh the supposed costs of alienating its original paying subscription base and that micro transactions from in-game as well as card purchases at retail level have the potential to far surpass the amounts paid by a smaller subscription paying customer.

    Additionally I, along with several others that I know, that play Lotro as Premium players have more than matched that original $199 payment Lifers paid when they first pre-purchased Lotro. Some of us have well exceeded that by as much as 5x that amount not even counting the expansions of ROI, ROR, Helms Deep with the highest end Legendary Editions of $80-100 per expansion.

    Before starting to attack an argument make sure you do your own research.

    As a side note I don't support a pure F2P player that has never purchased anything in-game or out of game to support the company getting a free hand out just because they couldn't log in to generate free tp, bogging down servers, complaining on the forums, or anything else that a Lifetimer, VIP, or Premium player has earned by continued monetary support or previous support to this wonderful game.
    Dernière modification par Draconfier ; 19/09/2013 à 22h03. Motif: Re-calculation of Math:thanks Yula and others for information regarding my original miscalculations.

  4. #4
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    54
    "Assuming makes an ### out of u and me".

  5. #5
    Date d'inscription
    février 2007
    Messages
    974
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    As a side note I don't support a pure F2P player that has never purchased anything in-game or out of game to support the company getting a free hand out just because they couldn't log in to generate free tp, bogging down servers, complaining on the forums, or anything else that a Lifetimer, VIP, or Premium player has earned by continued monetary support or previous support to this wonderful game.
    Riiiight....I'm a Lifetimer (x2) and I have purchased, with actual money, every expansion (again x2). I have made additional TP purchases. I tell you this just to prove your initial assumptions about Lifetimers wrong. The ONLY player base that is actually contributing, in an on-going fashion, to the financial well being of the game is the VIP -- they are paying a monthly subscription. Premium players are players that have previously paid money for something, whether it be a month's subscription, x-pac, or TP bundle. Premium players are essentially f2p while they are in a premium status, i.e., they are NOT paying any money during that time period. They are free-loading as much as the pure f2p player is and are not entitled to any compensation for downtime. Lifetimers have permanent VIP status as part of their willingness to plunk down $199-299 up front.

    To sum it up:

    Lifetime = VIP = gets compensated for downtime
    Premium = f2p = doesn't get compensated for downtime

    If you are a Premium player during the downtime, that's why you don't deserve any compensation.
    I like ice cream.

  6. #6
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    1 671
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    April 24, 2007 original release date. 500tp X 6 years 6 months =36,300 TP.
    This just here tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about I'm sorry to say.
    How to get help on the Tech Forums and how to contact Turbine

    Please reply to the topic or PM me if a solution I posted works for you: The more data I can gather the better I can help.

  7. #7
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    144
    Citation Envoyé par Feraxks Voir le message
    Riiiight....I'm a Lifetimer (x2) and I have purchased, with actual money, every expansion (again x2). I have made additional TP purchases. I tell you this just to prove your initial assumptions about Lifetimers wrong. The ONLY player base that is actually contributing, in an on-going fashion, to the financial well being of the game is the VIP -- they are paying a monthly subscription. Premium players are players that have previously paid money for something, whether it be a month's subscription, x-pac, or TP bundle. Premium players are essentially f2p while they are in a premium status, i.e., they are NOT paying any money during that time period. They are free-loading as much as the pure f2p player is and are not entitled to any compensation for downtime. Lifetimers have permanent VIP status as part of their willingness to plunk down $199-299 up front.

    To sum it up:

    Lifetime = VIP = gets compensated for downtime
    Premium = f2p = doesn't get compensated for downtime

    If you are a Premium player during the downtime, that's why you don't deserve any compensation.
    Feraxks,

    Did you even read anything from my post on the amounts I or others like me have purchased, I too have bought every xpac, and encouraged two others to do the same=x3. Premium players, Micro-transactions are what is responsible for the tripling of the game income. I've spent more than enough to be compensated in the same regards as a VIP or Lifetimer. In those two months (August-September) I spent more on tp then what a VIP player did on their subscription. I agree some players that are classified as premium don't currently support or continue to support in the same way as a VIP member, but neither does that Lifetimer if they aren't buying anything either.

    Now you may ask why don't I go VIP. Well it boils down to one thing, I don't value what it has to offer. I spend my money on TP that I can use in game. I own my content for all areas of the game vs. just leasing it; in so far as the game continues to be available. Sure I'd love the quick travel option from point A to point B like what is offered from West-Bree to Michael Delving or Thorin's Hall or Celondim, but having access to the moors as the only other major perk doesn't interest me in the slightest.

  8. #8
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    144
    Citation Envoyé par WBS Voir le message
    This just here tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about I'm sorry to say.
    My thanks for correcting my math, I didn't apparently proof read it well enough to change it from the 72 month equation to 78 monthsx5 for 39,000.

  9. #9
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2008
    Localisation
    Knoxville,Tn
    Messages
    269
    I saw this thread coming...Attack the Lifer's...must be either AI or one of his drones.

  10. #10
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    1 671
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    My thanks for correcting my math, I didn't apparently proof read it well enough to change it from the 72 month equation to 78 monthsx5 for 39,000.
    It's not your math in any way.

    It's that you don't know that there were no Turbine Points for years after the game launched.
    How to get help on the Tech Forums and how to contact Turbine

    Please reply to the topic or PM me if a solution I posted works for you: The more data I can gather the better I can help.

  11. #11
    Date d'inscription
    février 2007
    Messages
    974
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    I agree some players that are classified as premium don't currently support or continue to support in the same way as a VIP member, but neither does that Lifetimer if they aren't buying anything either.
    I did read what you posted. You said in the quote above that you agree "some players that are classified as premium don't currently support...".

    Wrong.

    ALL players that are classified as premium don't currently support the game. If you were a Premium player during the downtime, then you weren't a player supporting the game during the downtime, which makes you the same as a f2p player and are not entitled to compensation. It is as simple as that.

    I don't disagree that a Lifetimer is, monetary-wise, the same as a Premium player. The distinction is that Turbine has equated them to VIP status. Thus one of the less known perks of being a Lifetimer is that we get compensated for downtimes (when Turbine decides to do so).
    I like ice cream.

  12. #12
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    144
    Citation Envoyé par mykidstjz Voir le message
    I saw this thread coming...Attack the Lifer's...must be either AI or one of his drones.
    In effect Lifers did pre-purchase this game however you want to mince words. They took a gamble to support a fledgling company that was going to challenge the behemoth that WOW was and continues to be. They took a risk to buy content that might not exist or they might not like one month to six months down the road. They took the risk to enable LOTRO to raise the necessary capital at that time to pay for expenses that that company needed to run such as expenses, advertising, salaries, and development. They were in effect the initial financial investors in a new company and deserve their continued rewards of 500 free TP per month. But lets break that down if we will.

    Not sure how this is an attack on Lifer's. See above excerpt from my own posting.

  13. #13
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2007
    Messages
    35 764
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    My thanks for correcting my math, I didn't apparently proof read it well enough to change it from the 72 month equation to 78 monthsx5 for 39,000.
    The problem with your math is the wrong start date for earning Turbine Points. The official launch of F2P was September 10, 2010. Which gives 36 months at 500 Turbine Points a month = 18,000 Turbine Points not 39,000.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  14. #14
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    144
    Citation Envoyé par Feraxks Voir le message
    I did read what you posted. You said in the quote above that you agree "some players that are classified as premium don't currently support...".

    Wrong.

    ALL players that are classified as premium don't currently support the game. If you were a Premium player during the downtime, then you weren't a player supporting the game during the downtime, which makes you the same as a f2p player and are not entitled to compensation. It is as simple as that.

    I don't disagree that a Lifetimer is, monetary-wise, the same as a Premium player. The distinction is that Turbine has equated them to VIP status. Thus one of the less known perks of being a Lifetimer is that we get compensated for downtimes (when Turbine decides to do so).
    Once again you didn't read my post and instead choose a portion of a sentence to support your own position. Please post the entire sentence next time.

    In those two months (August-September) I spent more on tp then what a VIP player did on their subscription. I agree some players that are classified as premium don't currently support or continue to support in the same way as a VIP member, but neither does that Lifetimer if they aren't buying anything either.

  15. #15
    Date d'inscription
    février 2007
    Messages
    974
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    They took a gamble to support a fledgling company.
    Except Turbine wasn't a fledgling company. They had already produced several other relatively successful MMOs.
    I like ice cream.

  16. #16
    Date d'inscription
    février 2007
    Messages
    974
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    Once again you didn't read my post and instead choose a portion of a sentence to support your own position. Please post the entire sentence next time.

    In those two months (August-September) I spent more on tp then what a VIP player did on their subscription. I agree some players that are classified as premium don't currently support or continue to support in the same way as a VIP member, but neither does that Lifetimer if they aren't buying anything either.
    I quoted the entire section for context and then quoted a portion for emphasis and you are just repeating yourself. Simply put, if you were not paying a subscription when the downtime occurred, then you were free loading and not entitled to any compensation. It has NOTHING to do with what you might have done in the past or might do in the future. Only VIPs get compensated. Lifetimers have permanent VIP status because Turbine says so.
    Dernière modification par Feraxks ; 19/09/2013 à 21h34. Motif: typo
    I like ice cream.

  17. #17
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    144
    Citation Envoyé par Yula_the_Mighty Voir le message
    The problem with your math is the wrong start date for earning Turbine Points. The official launch of F2P was September 10, 2010. Which gives 36 months at 500 Turbine Points a month = 18,000 Turbine Points not 39,000.
    Thanks, but I was using the model of the original release date of the game not the F2P version. Original release date according to LOTRO was the date I included and used that as the model for 39,000 points worth of time towards the game. If you would rather use the F2P model date then we can re-calculate the math for those metrics instead, but don't really feel like it at this point.

    I'm not attacking the Lifetimer, I'm not attacking the VIP, I am stating that Premium players that made purchases towards LOTRO during August, September should be recompensated in the same way or even a lesser amount. The only group I have stated have no right to recompensation is the "PURE F2P" that has never purchased anything in game or out of it to support Code-Masters, Turbine, WB in their continued efforts to provide us with a Lord of the Rings themed MMORPG.

  18. #18
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2009
    Messages
    1 495
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    Before starting to attack an argument make sure you do your own research.
    Umm, I didn't attack your argument. I agreed with it. I specifically said that premiums should be compensated for downtime, which was your point, wasn't it?

    I've paid several hundred dollars more than my lifetime subscription purchase to pay cash for expansions and extra TP. But we've all suffered through the endless arguments about which payment type is more valuable to the game, and ultimately those arguments achieve nothing. I personally think that everyone who participates in this community is of equal value. People who haven't spent a dime on the game but who run a great kin or are helpful to new players or host fun events are contributing to the game's success in their own way. People who spend their hard-earned cash on improving their game experience also are contributing to the game in their own way. I simply won't buy into the idea that people with different incomes and different priorities for using their incomes are more important or not.

  19. #19
    Date d'inscription
    juillet 2008
    Messages
    1 830
    Turbine also had a fairly big failure of a MMORPG, AC2, that was shut down a couple years before LOTRO launched , and there was legal jousting over DDO, since the D&D licenses are a huge mess.

    So they offered lifetime accounts to get cash.

    They could have tried selling stock, but that would have meant they would have had to make dividend payments, have to deal with outsiders having a say in management, and of course, people who bought stock would also be able to sell it later (like when WB bought them out), probably making a tidy profit.

    But for Turbine, and everyone involved, raising cash by LT accounts was a much better deal.

  20. #20
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2009
    Messages
    1 495
    Citation Envoyé par Feraxks Voir le message
    Except Turbine wasn't a fledgling company. They had already produced several other relatively successful MMOs.
    And LOTRO was far from new when the last of the lifetime subscriptions was sold. I bought mine when the game was 3 years old, just before Mirkwood came out.

  21. #21
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2007
    Messages
    35 764
    Citation Envoyé par Feraxks Voir le message
    Except Turbine wasn't a fledgling company. They had already produced several other relatively successful MMOs.
    Turbine was under extreme financial pressure due to a heavy debt load. Turbine borrowed a boat load of money from bankers and used it to do all the following at the same time:

    1) Buy back Asheron's Call from Microsoft
    2) Buy back Asheron's Call 2 from Microsoft
    3) Build customer service department
    4) Build a Game Master department
    5) Build a billing system
    6) Build a system test organization
    7) Build an organization to create installers and patches
    8) Figure out how to negotiate with distributors and retailers
    9) Do an expansion for Asheron's Call
    10) Do an expansion for Asheron's Call 2
    11) Finish and launch DDO
    12) Finish and launch Lotro

    Prior to this time Turbine was a game development house. Microsoft collected all dollars, made the boxes, shipped the boxes to stores, handled customer servers, operated the servers, provided the Game Masters, handled all the administration like bug reports - building the loads - patching - creating the installation files ...

    Not surprising the transition was troubled and more costly than expected. In many ways Turbine was a "fledgling company". Turbine was making the transition from a company that only writes games to a company that does it all. Turbine managed to pull it off when companies like Sierra flamed out and disappeared.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  22. #22
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    1 671
    Citation Envoyé par Draconfier Voir le message
    Thanks, but I was using the model of the original release date of the game not the F2P version. Original release date according to LOTRO was the date I included and used that as the model for 39,000 points worth of time towards the game. If you would rather use the F2P model date then we can re-calculate the math for those metrics instead, but don't really feel like it at this point.
    I don't even know how to reply to such a messed up argument as this.

    I'll stop now as you honestly, no insult intended, do not know what you're talking about.
    How to get help on the Tech Forums and how to contact Turbine

    Please reply to the topic or PM me if a solution I posted works for you: The more data I can gather the better I can help.

  23. #23
    Date d'inscription
    août 2011
    Messages
    144
    Citation Envoyé par Whart Voir le message
    Umm, I didn't attack your argument. I agreed with it. I specifically said that premiums should be compensated for downtime, which was your point, wasn't it?

    I've paid several hundred dollars more than my lifetime subscription purchase to pay cash for expansions and extra TP. But we've all suffered through the endless arguments about which payment type is more valuable to the game, and ultimately those arguments achieve nothing. I personally think that everyone who participates in this community is of equal value. People who haven't spent a dime on the game but who run a great kin or are helpful to new players or host fun events are contributing to the game's success in their own way. People who spend their hard-earned cash on improving their game experience also are contributing to the game in their own way. I simply won't buy into the idea that people with different incomes and different priorities for using their incomes are more important or not.
    My apologies, wasn't specific on that. I appreciate the part about everyone being affected but took exception to the portion on the current market data involving F2P models vs. subscription based games. Thanks.

  24. #24
    Date d'inscription
    février 2007
    Messages
    974
    Citation Envoyé par Yula_the_Mighty Voir le message
    Turbine was under extreme financial pressure due to a heavy debt load. Turbine borrowed a boat load of money from bankers and used it to do all the following at the same time:

    1) Buy back Asheron's Call from Microsoft
    2) Buy back Asheron's Call 2 from Microsoft
    3) Build customer service department
    4) Build a Game Master department
    5) Build a billing system
    6) Build a system test organization
    7) Build an organization to create installers and patches
    8) Figure out how to negotiate with distributors and retailers
    9) Do an expansion for Asheron's Call
    10) Do an expansion for Asheron's Call 2
    11) Finish and launch DDO
    12) Finish and launch Lotro

    Prior to this time Turbine was a game development house. Microsoft collected all dollars, made the boxes, shipped the boxes to stores, handled customer servers, operated the servers, provided the Game Masters, handled all the administration like bug reports - building the loads - patching - creating the installation files ...

    Not surprising the transition was troubled and more costly than expected. In many ways Turbine was a "fledgling company". Turbine was making the transition from a company that only writes games to a company that does it all. Turbine managed to pull it off when companies like Sierra flamed out and disappeared.
    Yula, 30K+ posts later and you never cease to amaze me with all the knowledge you have. (please note: no sarcasm switch). I did not know any of the above. Thank you for the info -- informative as always.
    I like ice cream.

  25. #25
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2007
    Messages
    632
    I'm premium. I use to be VIP. I've purchased a lot of expansions. I play a lot of LOTRO. I also didn't get any free Turbine points....


    oh well. I don't care. I"ll keep on enjoying LOTRO regardless.

 

 
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