Fiar play within the Moors - or NOT

[zagreb000]

IF creeps had a warden'esk class, the rivers of tears flowing from freepside would make all of us start looking for a large boat filled with two of every kind.

Oh nice, biblical flood reference.. I have to remember this one ..... +rep to you...

Im just hoping the nerf hammer hits them hard with HD... I can already hear the cries on warden forums: "oh nooo, we are mortal again"!

[taishi]

I've heard rumors the next exp Wardens are getting the ability to fly !

[medwulf]

a. Ignore the warden

b. Um, zerg a hunter and corpse-jump them?

c. Celebrate your skill!

[spelunker]

Omg i have never read so many stupid pro-warden arguments.... No class in the game comes close to the warden god mode class.. Did someone at one point compare them to Rks in any way?... Heres a slap in the face for you (slap!!)......

Doesnt matter where you look.. You will find wardens soloing whole 3 man instances with a single pull of 40-50 mobs, you can see wardens soloing Skraids.. Taking on 6 plus creeps... And someone has the nerve to defend them?.. No other class can do what they can... Some groups cant do what they can...

Wardens are past the point of FOTM.. They are so off the chart they are actually breaking the game not only in pvp... Turbine messed things up so bad with the wardens that you have raid leaders and other players trying to fix the balance by willingly choosing to handicap their group by refusing to play with shield wardens...
Can you imagine that in any other game? If you want to play with others you are forbidden to freely make the choice of a trait line and how you will play......

If you are having a harder time killing a shield warden than healing RK, you're doing it wrong.

The 6-mans losing to a warden either need to get past r4 and have no aud, or they're doing it wrong.

Why would a raid leader want a shield warden in their group? Thats not nerfing, thats making a quality group. There are probably only a small handful of wardens out there who play shield line in an appropriate manner to actually contribute to a freep group beyond trolling.

How many raid groups that pay attention to traiting let a yellow line hunter into their group? or a Yellow line Cappy? Or a Blue line Guard? Or a Fire RK? Maybe the case can be made for the RK, i suppose.

Assuming equally skilled players, a shield warden can, give enough time, win a 6+v1 (assuming the creeps have little or no healing).

There is no excuse. I have no idea why a warden states he runs spear in these discussions. Is it effort to lessen the level of ridiculousness by saying "I could be more OP so be happy that I'm spear traited"?

I've read threads about how wardens have no "burst" DPS, which may or may not be true, its a point definitely worth debating. They most definitely have respectable DPS though. They have unmatched, BY FAR, survivability. No other class freepside is even remotely close. Champs may be for a few moments that's about it. You don't need "burst" DPS if you know you are going to out last your opponents in every fight. Given enough time you...will....win...if you chose to no matter what.

In 1v1s or 2v1s a champ, an LM, or a Mini are OP, but once a break point is reach (3v1s?) they go down and go down fast. Wardens break point may be as high as 6-8v1....

IF creeps had a warden'esk class, the rivers of tears flowing from freepside would make all of us start looking for a large boat filled with two of every kind.

Assuming equally skilled players, this hypothetical situation is only possible when both sides are absolutely terrible players Spam healing on a warden in Det is extremely easy (you don't even need all three gambit builders), the point is you have to do something different to deny them the ability to stack HoTs. Point me to a vid of a warden beating 3 or 4 decent rank (or store bought) creeps of any class makeup, and I'll step by step tell you how to win. Point me to 6-8 that can't do it and I'll point you to 6-8 people who are hopeless.

I state I run spear, because it makes very large differences in how I play, and what is required to be successful killing me, compared to one who plays shield line. I'm also firmly of the opinion that unless you judge the moors entirely by how few times you die, a spear line warden is more "OP" than a shield line one. Bad creeps should wish more wardens ran shield line, it would be easier on them than way.

Have you ever seen a true, skilled pure glory champ? They'll do better dps than a shield warden (when the warden is forced to be defensive) with only slightly less survivability. The difference is that beating the glory champ is relatively straightforward, while the warden requires you as a creep to actually execute a strategy, rather than blindly button mash dps skills.

Oh nice, biblical flood reference.. I have to remember this one ..... +rep to you...

Im just hoping the nerf hammer hits them hard with HD... I can already hear the cries on warden forums: "oh nooo, we are mortal again"!

Couldn't agree more.



Since its all the rage in forums:
tl;dr L2P

[ksjock]

it is a game design problem that it does require at least 2, and generally 3 solid creeps to take down a warden who is doing what they can to prevent death. I've stated that in one form or another so many times in the last 2 years it feels rather pointless to continue.

Gambits take time to build. 3 dps classes should be able to kill a warden faster than they can stack all their bleeds and do a bit more dps to get a kill (contrary to popular belief, a creep with full aud doesn't simply keel over the second the third bleed is applied. This means unlike say a champ whose dps is only slightly hindered by popping a bubble, the warden has lost a more significant amount of time/damage.

CC is a two way street, wardens have a good slow, an at best 55% (fairly inaccurate number here, since it requires tradeoffs no warden planning to fight 3v1 will accept) chance at a stun on a skill that is otherwise a poor choice, and a chance at a fear whose duration is low enough that it only messes with attacks, not movement. So perhaps when the warden used their slow on one warg, another could tendon shred buying them space? Perhaps they could use objects like trees or rocks to create space?

How is a warden setting up next to npcs for morale taps any different from say, a burglar setting up next to a cliff for safe fall? Even ignoring that point, warden AoE morale taps are the absolute easiest thing to deny them: chain your CC/silence/disarms, it works a lot better than the fools that space them out.

A halfway decent warden would kill a warg long before DC was up, if the warg was dumb enough to continue fighting them in that time. Cooldowns beget cooldowns, if you're a warg you have 2 fantastic options to assure you never die if a warden uses DC in a fight.

Tl;dr. the times 3 or more creeps played well fought against my warden completely backs up my assertion that they should win handily (I'm a spear traited warden, for those not on E as we are). The times I've creeped and fought 3v1 against Term (solos traited shield, runs assailment in pve gear and swaps to full mits/aud when targetted, perfectly willing to blow cooldowns and spam heal while retreating to npcs/1-shots given the opportunity) my assertion holds true as well.

I get kills quite frequently in 3v1s with and without DC, but there is almost no situation where I've done so where i couldn't look back on the fight and seen numerous occasions where the creeps could have played better and denied me any kills. Creeps have the short end of the stick for the majority of this expansion, that is quite obvious. Many terrible freeps are running around thinking they aren't because of how ignorant they are to how skewed things are in their favor. But just as many terrible creeps are running around QQ-ing over unbeatable God-mode freeps when they know nothing more than mashing dps skills against the the person they were told to, and standing on top of some dude with a symbol over their head. If thats what those people enjoy, great, continue on if that makes you happy. If remaining ignorant about how to fight other classes causes you to lose fights you should win, and that is upsetting to you, perhaps you should look at your own approach in the moors. Not directed at you ksjock, btw.

I'm sure what you're saying is very true and it should be clear (I hope) that going for straight out DPS v's a tanking class is a bad idea.

I've been in a 3 man group; me (defiler 8), Lush (WL 12?) and Bayo (BA 11?) that have taken down your warden a few times, at least I think it was you.

The [your?] warden went after my defiler hard, seriously nerfing my heals because I couldn't stop for inductions. At one point I feared and went for a big heal, they potted the fear and got off a moral leach. I recall Occa/Bayo getting annoyed with me because we had to get our pots on CD. Anyway we won the fight and with just one DPSing BA but the crazy thing was how much healing had to be pumped into my defiler. IIRC, bubble, quitters and at least one Get a Grip (uruk heal) not to mention me spamming my on the run HOTs and WL heals.

We were chating after and decided we needed to spread out better, which can be hard if you want to stay in heal range all the time. We also figured it probably wasn't worth trying to get of inductions and to just kite constantly. Anyway the warden came stright back and went for the WL this time, the end result was much the same but with better defiler heals I think it was a more dominate win to us.

We have had good fights and good wins against good Freep groups with even and sometimes even outnumbered odds. I also recall plenty of occasions when just one solo warden has stumbled accross our group fighting a good fight and totaly turned the tide, much more that a + 1 from any other class would have.

My point really is this:

It's not impossible or even really all that hard to kill a warden, with the right group and a bit of coordination. The real problem is, if Creeps all started making groups every time a Warden showed up in the Moors, then the Freeps who aren't playing Wardens will surely get annoyed by all the small Creep groups getting about zerging solo players.

I think they [wardens] are a big destabilising factor in the Moors and Turbine should have seriously looked at them by now.

[zagreb000]

If you are having a harder time killing a shield warden than healing RK, you're doing it wrong.

Im really considering putting this in my signature as a quote with an attached date and a sarcastic remark... Beyond preposterous...

You claim that its as hard to kill a warden as is a healing rk that poses absolutely no threat and is basically dead when stunned.... I cant not laugh..

I think you dont even barely get the point...
Raid leaders dont tell shield wardens to retrait because they dont need them.. They specifically forbid them to play in that way... Because it makes the fights completely unbalanced... You go shield warden, no raid for you...

Wardens can do what no other class can.. It doesnt matter if you think that with your hindsight skills you could tell us how a group of 6 7 creeps can beat a warden... The whole problem is that a warden can stand up to that number of creeps.. That is whats horribly wrong with the class... No class should even stand a chance in such scenarios.... And no other class does..

[Yelloweyedemon]

Honestly, other than creeps being generally quite helpless in RoI on a 1v1 basis, I've been a lot more annoyed by the 'FOTM' sort of wardens that popped after the revamp, usually shield traited, found in the herd, not particularly good, but blessed with the magic DC button for ####-ups and a strong sense of when it's time to leave other freeps to die behind.

DC seems to be going away (at least the panic button we know atm) with HD.

[spelunker]

@ksjock: that was me and I remember those encounters quite clearly. This is a great example of a small group making mistakes at first, learning from them and rather handily putting me down in subsequent fights, even with a less than ideal makeup to do it. a single class shouldn't be able to give 3 solid creeps so much trouble for sure, but when these same claims are made about groups of 4, 5, 6, and even 8, the creeps deserve more blame than the devs or wardens.

Im really considering putting this in my signature as a quote with an attached date and a sarcastic remark... Beyond preposterous...

You claim that its as hard to kill a warden as is a healing rk that poses absolutely no threat and is basically dead when stunned.... I cant not laugh..

I think you dont even barely get the point...
Raid leaders dont tell shield wardens to retrait because they dont need them.. They specifically forbid them to play in that way... Because it makes the fights completely unbalanced... You go shield warden, no raid for you...

Wardens can do what no other class can.. It doesnt matter if you think that with your hindsight skills you could tell us how a group of 6 7 creeps can beat a warden... The whole problem is that a warden can stand up to that number of creeps.. That is whats horribly wrong with the class... No class should even stand a chance in such scenarios.... And no other class does..

Please do quote me on that. That you are so afamant on this point clearly shows you are in fact doing it wrong, or the rk is.

What exactly is the shield warden bringin to the group that a spear or even fist one couldn't do better? Conviction healing? No matter how they're traited dc means they will be one of the last targets, so all those defensive abilities are a waste untill the group is already wiped. If a raid leader thinks their group is too powerful because the warden traited shield, they're an idiot. Please, raid leaders speak up and tell me I'm wrong.

Wardens pare the most powerful class in the moors, I wouldn't dream of denying that, but the qq drivel spewed by people who can't fathom why their mindless dps doesn't win every fight are we have uninformed posts like yours, and why the level of which wardens are the most op class in the game gets blown out of proportions.

[zagreb000]

basically the *you're a fail, they are fail, everybody is fail except me* argument

Hmm, i think this quote that i got once i managed to shrink your posts into a single awkwardly put together sentence, says it all...

Its not that the class is completely broken.. You are exaggerating, oh yes yes. Its just that you all suck.....
Please continue...

Do you not get the point again! People do not want to group with shield wardens because they are a god mode class.. They say that! See, like this: "you cant play with us because shield wardens are a broken class". It doesnt matter what they can or cant do in raids..

[xmorzan]

Hmm, i think this quote that i got once i managed to shrink your posts into a single awkwardly put together sentence, says it all...

Its not that the class is completely broken.. You are exaggerating, oh yes yes. Its just that you all suck.....
Please continue...

Do you not get the point again! People do not want to group with shield wardens because they are a god mode class.. They say that! See, like this: "you cant play with us because shield wardens are a broken class". It doesn't matter what they can or cant do in raids..

I thought we weren't supposed to use the quote function to blatantly and badly misrepresent a poster's argument...

To my knowledge, I don't see anyone here saying the Warden isn't OP, or that it isn't a broken game mechanic that it takes multiple creeps or more to take one down. The point of contention is that when multiple posters are telling you that 3 well-played creeps can in fact defeat a shield Warden, not just Deso, but multiple others, you're essentially calling them liars. This game is not so broken that 6-8 creeps played perfectly can't beat a blue Warden.

Also, maybe it's different on your server, but from my experiences, people don't care to have blue Wardens in their raids because they have no real utility and don't really offer much to a group, not because of some game-wide hatred for them. The ones that do raid up are just the last freep targeted during a wipe.

My advice: take Deso up on his offer to give advice, or try hitting your buttons harder.

[zagreb000]

I thought we weren't supposed to use the quote function to blatantly and badly misrepresent a poster's argument...

To my knowledge, I don't see anyone here saying the Warden isn't OP, or that it isn't a broken game mechanic that it takes multiple creeps or more to take one down. The point of contention is that when multiple posters are telling you that 3 well-played creeps can in fact defeat a shield Warden, not just Deso, but multiple others, you're essentially calling them liars. This game is not so broken that 6-8 creeps played perfectly can't beat a blue Warden.

Also, maybe it's different on your server, but from my experiences, people don't care to have blue Wardens in their raids because they have no real utility and don't really offer much to a group, not because of some game-wide hatred for them. The ones that do raid up are just the last freep targeted during a wipe.

My advice: take Deso up on his offer to give advice, or try hitting your buttons harder.

No thats actually what he says.. Do i need to quote? His whole conversation is based around:"if you cant do what i think you should then you suck".. 6v1? You lost? Well im sorry to say but my judgment is right and you suck... To be fair he doesnt use that exact word but still his point comes across clearly.

I claim that such things should never ever happen in a game. And with the warden those kinds of scenarios happen all the time.. Do you know the difference between: "i have seen wardens beat a group of 6 creeps" and "6 creeps cannot defeat a warden, period"???? What am i asking, ofc you dont.... hahaha

The point of contention is that when multiple posters are telling you that 3 well-played creeps can in fact defeat a shield Warden, not just Deso, but multiple others, you're essentially calling them liars. This game is not so broken that 6-8 creeps played perfectly can't beat a blue Warden.

OMG! This part of your post goes beyond stupidity... Where did i say 3 well played creeps cant beat a warden? Who am i calling a liar? "This game is not so broken that 6-8 creeps played perfectly can't beat a blue Warden."... You actually said this! hahaha.. Its not so broken.. Well its not so broken that 24 players cant beat a warden. How bout 32, 48?..

You know that something is very wrong when someone throws around such numbers.. And 6-8 is a huge number in this case...

Its completely broken... Only reason why pvp is somewhat still going on my server is because all the wardens that pvp are decent people that never go blue...

My advice: take Deso up on his offer to give advice, or try hitting your buttons harder.

How is the reception in there?

[spelunker]

You are quite right, I am saying if you or anyone else is struggling in the examples you provide, you are either under-ranked, under audacity, bad at movement, bad at skill selection, or bad at executing a strategy appropriate for the given encounter. Feel free to quote that as well.

I've said my part, and reiterated it enough times in this thread and countless others that there is little reason to continue. You read into my posts however you want anyway rather than legitimately considering what's brought forward, so feel free to continue to do so. Also, feel free to continue blaming other classes and players when much of the problem lies in your inability, or unwillingness to consider better approaches to a problem.

My offer stands to you or anyone else, find a vid of a trio or more of decent rank/audacity creeps losing to a warden, and i'll do my best to explain how to not do so.

[xmorzan]

How is the reception in there?

Ok, first off I'll start by apologizing. You didn't say that 3 creeps cant beat a warden, nor did you say 6+ can't. My mistake, I misread someone else's post for yours.

But to address the other issues, yes I do know the issue between a warden taking on 6+ and and 6+ not being able to beat a Warden. You blame class balance for this when it's clearly a player issue. Plenty of other classes can do the same when the creeps are bad enough. I've seen Minstrels, Champs, RKs and Captains do the same every now and then and every single time, it's done against poorly played creeps. And when we throw around numbers that big when you know that 2-3 can get the job done, wouldn't you think it's something the players are doing?

Secondly, just as I made a mistake in reading yours and other's post, isn't is possible that you could be doing the same thing with Deso? You're getting all worked up to the point of insulting other people rather than rebuffing their argument. Why not tell us how a shield warden makes a raid unfair? Why did you decide to use the quote function to try to make him look bad instead?

I get that no class should be able to take on that many opponents, and maybe I did a poor job of relaying that. But at the end of the day, when those things happen, it's a player problem.

[poxnoxious]

But to address the other issues, yes I do know the issue between a warden taking on 6+ and and 6+ not being able to beat a Warden. You blame class balance for this when it's clearly a player issue. Plenty of other classes can do the same when the creeps are bad enough.

Could you possibly be more off? I've tried marking your text there for you, I'd say it should be self-explanatory what's wrong with it. Knowing these forums and the amount of casual ezmoders running around thinking they have a clue, I'll assume it's not though. (Not saying quoted poster is one of them, clearly he knows his buisness.)

So here goes; 'self-explanatory mmo pvp stuff that really shouldn't be needed to be bend in neon for the plebs, but alas it is' - Any PvP environment where 6 horrible, talentless, button-mashing casuals can't bring down a solo player of any level of skill is unbalanced. Period. End of discussion. (I wont even go into your last sentence, I underlined it, well, for the lulz and the obvious.)

Have a nice weekend all. o/

[Laggus]

[QUOTE=Shintagh;6926629]If 6 of you can't kill 1 Warden then it's your fault not Turbines. Learn to play your classes. All you need is 1 warg, 1 defiler and any 1 or 2 dps classes. QUOTE]


erm...lol, this here is a prime example of whats wrong. Even this guy says is "All you need is 1 warg, 1 defiler and any 1 or 2 dps classes". <<<I know whats stupid and its not Creeps!

[Squelcher]

The wardens who believe that creep skill is at fault, not wardens being overpowered... Amusing. Never could you find a more solid example of fundamental attribution error.
Anyone who believes warden is even close to balanced is either completely blind, or has highly limited knowledge of the meaning of the term 'balance', or both.

I can easily outplay and outmaneouvre the vast majority of freeps, however that doesn't mean I can beat them. Pure numbers are against me. You can't beat maths no matter how good you are, unless your opponent is very bad (which many wardens are), but even bad wardens are powerful.

Playing a weaker character on a weaker faction makes it more likely, logically, that you will be of a higher skill level than a person who plays an easymode, spoonfed, god-mode button masher class on a faction of similar description.

''That which isn't constantly challenged grows weak''. Tell me, wardens, is it a constant challenge to defeat your opponents?

[spelunker]

The wardens who believe that creep skill is at fault, not wardens being overpowered... Amusing. Never could you find a more solid example of fundamental attribution error.
Anyone who believes warden is even close to balanced is either completely blind, or has highly limited knowledge of the meaning of the term 'balance', or both.

I can easily outplay and outmaneouvre the vast majority of freeps, however that doesn't mean I can beat them. Pure numbers are against me. You can't beat maths no matter how good you are, unless your opponent is very bad (which many wardens are), but even bad wardens are powerful.

Playing a weaker character on a weaker faction makes it more likely, logically, that you will be of a higher skill level than a person who plays an easymode, spoonfed, god-mode button masher class on a faction of similar description.

''That which isn't constantly challenged grows weak''. Tell me, wardens, is it a constant challenge to defeat your opponents?

Who are you even talking to? I'm pretty much the only active warden in this thread and every post I've made has the clear admission that wardens are obviously OP. I play the most op class in the game and my current one has a 1.5 kill to death ratio. Ill skip the claims of being god's gift to wardening but I don't think you'll find many people on E who think I'm a bad player. Care to share your war-tab and explain to me how that shows you chalenging yourself more than me? The best II can tell you're looking for an excuse to call yourself good without having to back it up with facts.

@pox: I've witnessed a reaver win a 5v1 against terrible freeps, does that make that class broken? That there are possibilities for skilled play to overcome sheer numbers is good design, not bad. I just wish it was more readily availible to more classes.

Also, the example shintagh provides is a fantastic way for a 3 or 4 man to not kill a shield warden.

[Stepbrother]

Who are you even talking to? I'm pretty much the only active warden in this thread and every post I've made has the clear admission that wardens are obviously OP.

I'm pretty sure we all said the class is OP in this thread before suggesting there's more to the story if 6 creeps can't beat 1 warden.

[xmorzan]

Could you possibly be more off? I've tried marking your text there for you, I'd say it should be self-explanatory what's wrong with it. Knowing these forums and the amount of casual ezmoders running around thinking they have a clue, I'll assume it's not though. (Not saying quoted poster is one of them, clearly he knows his buisness.)

So here goes; 'self-explanatory mmo pvp stuff that really shouldn't be needed to be bend in neon for the plebs, but alas it is' - Any PvP environment where 6 horrible, talentless, button-mashing casuals can't bring down a solo player of any level of skill is unbalanced. Period. End of discussion. (I wont even go into your last sentence, I underlined it, well, for the lulz and the obvious.)

Have a nice weekend all. o/

How about finding a quote in here that says Wardens aren't OP , or that the PvP is balanced. Nobody is arguing these points. You see, even if this game was somewhere actually close to being balanced, you'd still have some players winning these lopsided fights. If you're simply unwilling to put any thought into your class and the skills your character has, or think about more than following a selected target assist and staying close to the leader, then expect to see lopsided fights. Period. End of discussion.

Again, we know the Warden is OP, and we know there is no balance in PvP. we really do. A class imbalance issue would be multiple, well-played creeps losing a single freep (which certainly exists here in Lotro aplenty). It becomes more of a player problem when you completely ignore basic combat processes and gameplay while expecting to win regardless of how awful you are.

Enjoy your weekend as well

[Squelcher]

Who are you even talking to?

Dunno, just making a broad statement based on the only partially proven preconception that someone in this thread believes that wardens are not OP.

[spelunker]

Dunno, just making a broad statement based on the only partially proven preconception that someone in this thread believes that wardens are not OP.

So its reading comprehension.

[Squelcher]

So its reading comprehension.

No, I can comprehend everything being said. I just chose not to read most of it.

Sue me.

[poxnoxious]

@pox: I've witnessed a reaver win a 5v1 against terrible freeps, does that make that class broken? That there are possibilities for skilled play to overcome sheer numbers is good design, not bad. I just wish it was more readily availible to more classes.

This can easily turn in to a lenghty debate, with all the unknowns involved and what not, but I'll try for a short one for starters


First of all, lets start with the end.

That there are possibilities for skilled play to overcome sheer numbers is good design, not bad.

No two ways 'bout that.

I've witnessed a reaver win a 5v1 against terrible freeps, does that make that class broken?

No, but it makes it abundantly clear the entire game balancing system is messed up, that is what I'm talking about. Granted, I don't know all the circumstanses of either fight; was there clever using of enviroment, breaking LoS, use of NPCs etc. etc. I do know that those freeps would have to be either extremely rubbish and/or extremely ###### geared, probably both. I also know that on comparison that the creeps fighting a warden with similar result not necessarily need to be as bad/undergeared (read auda/ranked). But that not really important in this post.
The post from which you reply to me is about classes being OP versus the whole game balancing. What I was talking about wasn't specific classes OPness or lack of same, but balancing. They related, obviously, but it's not the same. In fact, since I'm really tired, I'll just answer with this and hope that explains what I mean

That there are possibilities for skilled play to overcome sheer numbers is good design, not bad. I just wish it was more readily availible to more classes.

------> That my friend is lack of balance. What we have at the moment is freeps having OP classes with a balancing system that is skewed towards their favour aswell = unbalanced gameplay.

Anyways, I'll edit this in the morrow, well tired now :P

I'll just voice my opinion again, no class, no matter how well played should be able to survive 6 enemies go full on out on them for an extended period of time, no matter how ridiculously poor those 6 players are as long as they make an actual effort. Anything else just opens up for too much 'interpretation'. In another game, sure. In LotrO, no thanks. That would require they tossed the whole pvmp thingy in the bin and started from scratch, or pretty much anyways.

[spelunker]

No, I can comprehend everything being said. I just chose not to read most of it.

Sue me.

It explains the responses, thats for sure. A rather convenient way to say whatever you want and then write off whatever doesn't stick when you do so.

This can easily turn in to a lenghty debate, with all the unknowns involved and what not, but I'll try for a short one for starters


First of all, lets start with the end.


No two ways 'bout that.





No, but it makes it abundantly clear the entire game balancing system is messed up, that is what I'm talking about. Granted, I don't know all the circumstanses of either fight; was there clever using of enviroment, breaking LoS, use of NPCs etc. etc. I do know that those freeps would have to be either extremely rubbish and/or extremely ###### geared, probably both. I also know that on comparison that the creeps fighting a warden with similar result not necessarily need to be as bad/undergeared (read auda/ranked). But that not really important in this post.
The post from which you reply to me is about classes being OP versus the whole game balancing. What I was talking about wasn't specific classes OPness or lack of same, but balancing. They related, obviously, but it's not the same. In fact, since I'm really tired, I'll just answer with this and hope that explains what I mean

------> That my friend is lack of balance. What we have at the moment is freeps having OP classes with a balancing system that is skewed towards their favour aswell = unbalanced gameplay.

Anyways, I'll edit this in the morrow, well tired now :P

I'll just voice my opinion again, no class, no matter how well played should be able to survive 6 enemies go full on out on them for an extended period of time, no matter how ridiculously poor those 6 players are as long as they make an actual effort. Anything else just opens up for too much 'interpretation'. In another game, sure. In LotrO, no thanks. That would require they tossed the whole pvmp thingy in the bin and started from scratch, or pretty much anyways.

I'll do my best to skip the lengthy debate as well. 2 points:
#1 This whole post is based off the idea that there is a game balancing system for PvMP, which i think is a mistake. There may be some vague macro numbers thrown around in terms of overall ren/inf earnings, and some specific adjustments based on specific complaints (forum, Palantir, Beta QQ primarily) but any suggestion that there is an actual system for balancing the classes or sides in PvMP beyond whims and wishes is mistaken, I believe.

#2 We'll have to agree to disagree regarding the ability for a given player to survive or defeat "overwhelming" numbers. I stand by my point that it being possible is a good thing for pvp. A friend of mine is fond of saying "nothing is foolproof to the talented fool". Perhaps those creeps losing 6v1s to wardens are less talented at it that others might have to be, but that doesn't put them above being fools.

[Squelcher]

A rather convenient way to say whatever you want and then write off whatever doesn't stick when you do so.

Of course. If I have a way to make a statement without reading stuff, then cover myself if I'm wrong, then I'll do it.