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  1. #76
    Date d'inscription
    août 2007
    Messages
    3 595
    Citation Envoyé par mrfigglesworth Voir le message
    Can anyone answer these questions? I'm curious if anyone knows another counter to flayer warg root as I've never seen one besides sprint.

    And also what are the other incoming healing debuffs for each class? The champ no longer has incoming healing debuff on armor, it was switched out of our fervor gear for another 4 set bonus.

    Hunters ?
    rks ?
    any others?
    Sorry, I'd been drinking a bit when I posted that and got myself confused, forget the root stuff...

    Minstrels have a moors relic that gives -10% inc healing on song of soothing i think it is.
    Burgs get a relic that does gives -10% on subtle stab.
    As I said previously, hunters get the bonus on merciful shot with 4 pieces of the predator set (I don't know the %)
    Nyrion mentioned the -30% on essence of winter already.
    Routing Cry 4-set bonus on the Loyalty moors set gives -35% for cappies
    Onslaught, Warden's Triumph, and Adroit manouvre give -25% for wardens in melee stances only that stacks to -50%

    I don't know how potential stacking on the non-warden ones work.
    Citation Envoyé par Bels_illuminati Voir le message
    I have to take issue with these points. In recklessness we are very reliant on DoTs yes, but on 75 dummies over 16 seconds (until they reset) it is possible to do OVER 5k dps in assailment even in red traits totally solo.

    Which leads on to the second point about no burst. I disagree entirely because of the possibilities in assailment. Once you're all buffed and have a battle prepped WoS and masteries off cd I fail to see how WoS>WoS>WoS>Wages from behind>SpSp>SpFi Sp FiFi>WoS>WoS (meaning two more WoS while only using the Sp builder once) is anything BUT burst, in fact it is up there with the best burst in the game and has very little cooldown. Considering in PvE WoS comfortably reaches 12-13k devs solo and over 15k in groups this has an incredible damage potential in a short space of time. If coordinated with Oathies.... dear lord
    One, or a handful of parses on an underlevel training dummy doesn't make for a great example, especially considering what the level gap does to your crit chance. Assailment is absolutely where our burst dps lies, but it isn't that great, its a slow stance, and most importantly to me at least, forces you into complete garbage rotations that make you no better than hunters whose whole class revolves around spamming one skill.

    P.S. why Boar's rush over combination strike for burst damage? even with the slightly higher crit change, boar's rush on a crit hits softer than a regular combination strike.

    Citation Envoyé par Untg99 Voir le message
    Galtrev dummies are of little to no indication of PvP potential as the magnitude of critical chance tends to be higher.
    Try it on the medium or light dummy in GV.
    Given the allotted animation time, it's still a fairly lengthy period, and still very reliant on morbid crit chance when both compared to the skill synergies of other classes.

    Assailment burst can be deadly it's true, but I personally tend to see it as more of a clickers stance.
    Also, building for assailment damage doesn't leave much room for dynamic combat, unless you gear swap.
    this.

    Citation Envoyé par Cloudie-wan Voir le message
    Only if you use the PvMP relics, thus nerfing both your healing and damage, and only for a truly negligible amount of -inc healing even then.
    I've heard in combat LI swaps aren't going anywhere with HD.
    Dernière modification par spelunker ; 05/09/2013 à 19h16.

  2. #77
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    France
    Messages
    749
    Citation Envoyé par spelunker Voir le message
    I've heard in combat LI swaps aren't going anywhere with HD.
    Gear swapping for a minor and very short debuff on a long induction, meh, all that really does is make you waste time and cause you to end up with the wrong gear on because inductions prevent gear swapping. Well you can also waste a trait to make it instant and longer cooldown I suppose ...

  3. #78
    Date d'inscription
    août 2007
    Messages
    3 595
    Citation Envoyé par Equendil Voir le message
    Gear swapping for a minor and very short debuff on a long induction, meh, all that really does is make you waste time and cause you to end up with the wrong gear on because inductions prevent gear swapping. Well you can also waste a trait to make it instant and longer cooldown I suppose ...
    I never said it was worth it, and particularly for minstrels it probably isn't, just that it is out there, and the sacrifice of a relic slot isn't exactly all it seems. Ending up with the wrong gear on is a user error, not really the issue at hand.

  4. #79
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    1 171
    @spelunker sorry I meant SpSh not SpFi ^^. So WoS rather than Boar's.

    I agree it's trashy and hunteresque, but that doesn't stop it being extremely effective. It is also certainly not slow in groups with cappy war cry/blade bro and adroit manoeuvre active in particular.

    There's no escaping the fact that to maximise dps on a warden you have little choice but to stack bleeds in reckless then move to range and deliver a burst. It may seem trashy BUT actually it is a complex overall rotation, more so than any other dps class I know of and not just in lotro.

  5. #80
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    France
    Messages
    749
    Citation Envoyé par spelunker Voir le message
    I never said it was worth it, and particularly for minstrels it probably isn't, just that it is out there, and the sacrifice of a relic slot isn't exactly all it seems. Ending up with the wrong gear on is a user error, not really the issue at hand.
    Well, it's not just "user error", you can't swap gear while doing an induction, you can't queue gear swapping, and latency being what it is, you soon end up with the wrong gear on because of that. Swapping multiple items also takes multiple clicks or keystrokes unless you are using macro'ing software that can queue keystrokes faster than humanly possible which I believe is in violation of the TOS.

    There's this idea floating about that freeps can just swap gear at will instantly, and it irks me a bit. That might work relatively well for induction-less classes using macro'ing software, not so great on induction classes, even less so for players who don't use outside 'help'. Going induction - pause - click click ... - pause - induction - pause - click click ... with the character panel in your face to make sure you don't end up with 0 audacity or the wrong LIs equipped is what it is.

  6. #81
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Australia
    Messages
    3 851
    Citation Envoyé par spelunker Voir le message
    Sorry, I'd been drinking a bit when I posted that and got myself confused, forget the root stuff...

    Minstrels have a moors relic that gives -10% inc healing on song of soothing i think it is.
    Burgs get a relic that does gives -10% on subtle stab.
    As I said previously, hunters get the bonus on merciful shot with 4 pieces of the predator set (I don't know the %)
    Nyrion mentioned the -30% on essence of winter already.
    Routing Cry 4-set bonus on the Loyalty moors set gives -35% for cappies
    Onslaught, Warden's Triumph, and Adroit manouvre give -25% for wardens in melee stances only that stacks to -50%
    Burglars get 10% chance to apply a -50% debuff, I thought minnies were -25%, hunters is -50%.
    Different classes debuffs stack afaik.

  7. #82
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    4 000
    Wardens don't have any burst; they have to build gambits. Gambit builders/masteries consume time. Time in which other classes can continue to DPS/"Burst". Then they rely on DoTs, too. Kind of funy anyone even tried to mention burst DPS for Wardens.

  8. #83
    Date d'inscription
    août 2007
    Messages
    3 595
    Citation Envoyé par Untg99 Voir le message
    Burglars get 10% chance to apply a -50% debuff, I thought minnies were -25%, hunters is -50%.
    Different classes debuffs stack afaik.
    I can't read the full tooltip on the relics at the GV barter vendors, but from what I can read, they don't appear as you describe. Perhaps this has been changed recently? If you hadn't noticed, the Warden Boar's Rush relics have taken a pretty hefty nerf.

    Citation Envoyé par Giliodor Voir le message
    Wardens don't have any burst; they have to build gambits. Gambit builders/masteries consume time. Time in which other classes can continue to DPS/"Burst". Then they rely on DoTs, too. Kind of funy anyone even tried to mention burst DPS for Wardens.
    if you can battle prep (or are in combat and use battle memory) 3 ranged WoSs from a dps build spear warden can be done in about 3 seconds. If 1 or 2 of them crit, any unsupported creep will be at half health, which is a pretty solid burst over 3 seconds, especially since it can be repeated every 15 seconds. Certainly it doesn't compare to a hunter burn-hot camo-gank, but to dismiss it out of hand would be a mistake.

  9. #84
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Sunset Strip
    Messages
    820
    Citation Envoyé par spelunker Voir le message
    if you can battle prep (or are in combat and use battle memory) 3 ranged WoSs from a dps build spear warden can be done in about 3 seconds. If 1 or 2 of them crit, any unsupported creep will be at half health, which is a pretty solid burst over 3 seconds, especially since it can be repeated every 15 seconds. Certainly it doesn't compare to a hunter burn-hot camo-gank, but to dismiss it out of hand would be a mistake.
    ... that line had 2 'if' one 'about' and one 'unsupported'.

    That's not what I call burst dps. Yeah sure it can happen, but then again one shotters can be killed by an organised attack as well...

  10. #85
    Date d'inscription
    août 2007
    Messages
    3 595
    Citation Envoyé par Yelloweyedemon Voir le message
    ... that line had 2 'if' one 'about' and one 'unsupported'.

    That's not what I call burst dps. Yeah sure it can happen, but then again one shotters can be killed by an organised attack as well...
    And those same ifs, abouts, and unsupported clauses apply to every other class in the game, too. Can a hunter do a crazy burst if burn hot or their dev pots are on cooldown (or whatever else they use for temporary damage bursts). Champs have seeking blade, and if thats on cooldown their burst is just an 'if' it crits.

    I can think of 3 classes with a single skill that hits harder than ranged wall of steel, champs, rks, and hunters. They have better burst dps, but who else does?

  11. #86
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Sunset Strip
    Messages
    820
    Citation Envoyé par spelunker Voir le message
    And those same ifs, abouts, and unsupported clauses apply to every other class in the game, too. Can a hunter do a crazy burst if burn hot or their dev pots are on cooldown (or whatever else they use for temporary damage bursts). Champs have seeking blade, and if thats on cooldown their burst is just an 'if' it crits.

    I can think of 3 classes with a single skill that hits harder than ranged wall of steel, champs, rks, and hunters. They have better burst dps, but who else does?
    Burst dps clas, is a class that can do super high damage at will. Burst dps is a hunter poping out of stealth and taking away 3/4 of your health before you realise what's going on. Burst dps is a champion charging at you, stuning you, and taking away half of your health before you recover.

    Warden is a class that is heavily relying on dots to put some strong dps, and might see highish numbers on a crit.

  12. #87
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Australia
    Messages
    3 851
    Citation Envoyé par Yelloweyedemon Voir le message
    Burst dps clas, is a class that can do super high damage at will. Burst dps is a hunter poping out of stealth and taking away 3/4 of your health before you realise what's going on. Burst dps is a champion charging at you, stuning you, and taking away half of your health before you recover.

    Warden is a class that is heavily relying on dots to put some strong dps, and might see highish numbers on a crit.
    A lot about burst damage is subjected to critical hit chance and whatever that criticals magnitude is. The classes with the most burst damage potential contain synergised skillsets in which they can manipulate either critical hit chance(usually the case) or critical hit magnitude or both.
    Wardens don't have access to this type of manipulation outside of LI's, traits and items that they cannot use in the ettenmoors anyway.

    With that said, wardens are still subjected to the regular critical magnitudes and chances which uniform burst damage.
    However it is extremely unreliable as a combo to be using normally (Which I see a lot of wardens doing).
    Built glasscannon, it will work the way you want it to around 10% of the time you try to use it.

    Not overtly effective IMO.

  13. #88
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    1 171
    Citation Envoyé par Untg99 Voir le message
    Not overtly effective IMO.
    Please explain how WoS>WoS>WoS>Wages doesn't count as effective burst. And also explain which other class can access their burst during combat, every few seconds, from 40 metre range and on the run.

    Warden burst may not be the highest figure wise, but to be frank it isn't far off and requires no skill or positioning to pull off. Also repeatable in-combat burst>opening combat burst for anything but 1v1 ganking (it is also superior to burst that relies on long cd self buffs).

  14. #89
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    4 000
    Citation Envoyé par spelunker Voir le message
    if you can battle prep (or are in combat and use battle memory) 3 ranged WoSs from a dps build spear warden can be done in about 3 seconds. If 1 or 2 of them crit, any unsupported creep will be at half health, which is a pretty solid burst over 3 seconds, especially since it can be repeated every 15 seconds. Certainly it doesn't compare to a hunter burn-hot camo-gank, but to dismiss it out of hand would be a mistake.
    Oh wardens have ranged burst DPS, surely, but not in melee. I thought the point of the whole thread was Wardens Bleeds (=melee)? If not so, then yes, wardens have very nice burst DPS. As I said somewhere before, I took out a lowrank in literally half a raid (12) at TR gy, all on my own, no other freeps near. But it's all about the crits. 2x WoS + WoF crit = about 8k (with my gear, far and far from the best). Can be fired off in a couple of seconds.

  15. #90
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2007
    Localisation
    Australia
    Messages
    3 851
    Citation Envoyé par Bels_illuminati Voir le message
    Please explain how WoS>WoS>WoS>Wages doesn't count as effective burst. And also explain which other class can access their burst during combat, every few seconds, from 40 metre range and on the run.

    Warden burst may not be the highest figure wise, but to be frank it isn't far off and requires no skill or positioning to pull off. Also repeatable in-combat burst>opening combat burst for anything but 1v1 ganking (it is also superior to burst that relies on long cd self buffs).
    The idea that warden burst is superior because you can perform it more often is very fallible in itself. What constitutes burst damage? Doing the most damage in the least amount of time. You yourself imply that wardens 'burst damage' is not about that definition, in which case it conflicts with itself.

    Warden burst can be effective, but it is completely reliant on a single uncontrollable factor: base crit chance. Other classes simply have a lot more control over initial burst and burst followups, as well as build fluidity in facilitating their burst options.

    For wardens I think thats the main thing that makes it very unreliant for the class in general. Why build yourself into a pidgeonhole just to get big crits on one skill, when you could easily be building for other things that the warden class is better at doing and being able to react to?
    There's only one answer, and thats the huge ###### of the warden in the moors right now.
    To be able to compete for a well served purpose in larger scale fights, assailment is unequivocally the best option to go. Otherwise you're stuck with mediocre DPS (DoT damage in raids suck mans ######) or simply spamming your two raid-worthy debuffs.
    With the mind-numbing simplicity, and borked cow corpse that assailment encompasses on the class, it annoys me considerably, because thats certainly not what most assailment wardens have in mind when they build this way.
    Dernière modification par Untg99 ; 12/09/2013 à 08h17.

  16. #91
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    1 171
    Citation Envoyé par Untg99 Voir le message
    The idea that warden burst is superior because you can perform it more often is very fallible in itself. What constitutes burst damage? Doing the most damage in the least amount of time. You yourself imply that wardens 'burst damage' is not about that definition, in which case it conflicts with itself.

    Warden burst can be effective, but it is completely reliant on a single uncontrollable factor: base crit chance. Other classes simply have a lot more control over initial burst and burst followups, as well as build fluidity in facilitating their burst options.

    For wardens I think thats the main thing that makes it very unreliant for the class in general. Why build yourself into a pidgeonhole just to get big crits on one skill, when you could easily be building for other things that the warden class is better at doing and being able to react to?
    There's only one answer, and thats the huge ###### of the warden in the moors right now.
    To be able to compete for a well served purpose in larger scale fights, assailment is unequivocally the best option to go. Otherwise you're stuck with mediocre DPS (DoT damage in raids suck mans ######) or simply spamming your two raid-worthy debuffs.
    With the mind-numbing simplicity, and borked cow corpse that assailment encompasses on the class, it annoys me considerably, because thats certainly not what most assailment wardens have in mind when they build this way.
    As I said warden burst is not the highest figure wise, but it is infinitely repeatable and unrelenting, coupled with the 40 metre range it is unsurpassable IMO.
    Plus you don't have to build for it, sure you can improve it slightly traiting assailment and gearing for ranged bonuses, but frankly running in red with a reckless build as I do, ranged damage is still high and bursty.

    Recklessness in small scale provides excellent dps, more than enough to kill even healers (best class v WLs by far imo) especially with bleeds maintaining pressure during those moments the warden may need to rebuff or wait for masteries. Assailment in the same build is great for RvR.

    All classes are reliant on crits btw, and yes champs can force one on a loooong cd, while hunters are deadly in the first 10 seconds. But after that I still maintain wardens are possibly the best dps in RvR right now. I mean list the benefits, survivability that comes from being ranged AND strong clickies means they are targeted last. Being able to apply heavy dots from range (which actually makes wardens less reliant on crits than the other dps classes). Self healing from range. Interrupting from range (absolutely key). Strong healing debuffs when geared for it, or aoe slows instead (both very powerful options). Fellowship wide buffs to top it off. All this to also go with the ability to hit three WoS and a wages almost at will for heavy single target damage, if a couple of those crit it becomes 8-9k up front damage in about 3 seconds, adding another couple of k if bleeds are up.

    Applying bleeds also does good damage on the application, enough to pressure certainly.

    The reason I prefer warden dps over other options is the 'survive the burst' syndrome. If on my creeps I can out play the bursty freep classes by avoiding or countering their short burst windows then victory is almost assured. For example against a hunter, survive the first ten seconds or so in good shape and it's setup for a win. Against wardens there is no downtime or chance to avoid it. If you reflect on spid to counter champ use of auto crit for example then it's countered. On warden they just come and come again.


    Basically wardens are unrelenting.

  17. #92
    Date d'inscription
    février 2013
    Messages
    65
    Nerf freep healing by giving more -inc. healing debuffs for creeps - this way you don`t have to rebalance PVE healing.
    Nerf creep healing by giving more -inc. healing effects as set bonuses - this way you make moor sets more attractive for damage-focused freeps.
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

  18. #93
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    4 000
    Citation Envoyé par Olfaran Voir le message
    Nerf freep healing by giving more -inc. healing debuffs for creeps - this way you don`t have to rebalance PVE healing.
    Nerf creep healing by giving more -inc. healing effects as set bonuses - this way you make moor sets more attractive for damage-focused freeps.
    I suggest giving back -100% inc healing to Wardens...! But tbh, there's enough -inc healing already, and clearly this is not the solution.

  19. #94
    Date d'inscription
    février 2013
    Messages
    65
    Citation Envoyé par Giliodor Voir le message
    But tbh, there's enough -inc healing already
    On creep side?
    and clearly this is not the solution.
    Maybe, I`t s clear for you - but not for me. Elaborate, please.
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

  20. #95
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    4 000
    Citation Envoyé par Olfaran Voir le message
    On creep side?
    Yes, on Creepside. More than enough Reavers around. A well-timed Blight does wonders, too.

    Maybe, I`t s clear for you - but not for me. Elaborate, please.
    Healing is still screwed up, and there are lots of clueless players who don't realise the importance. Reducing overall healing would be a much more effective solution.

  21. #96
    Date d'inscription
    février 2013
    Messages
    65
    Citation Envoyé par Giliodor Voir le message
    Yes, on Creepside. More than enough Reavers around. A well-timed Blight does wonders, too.
    So, it`s all about reavers, reavers, reavers and defilers? I wouldn`t call it "enough".

    Reducing overall healing would be a much more effective solution.
    And screw PVE in the process. Do you really expect this to happen in PVE-oriented game?
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

  22. #97
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    4 000
    Citation Envoyé par Olfaran Voir le message
    So, it`s all about reavers, reavers, reavers and defilers? I wouldn`t call it "enough".
    I would.

    And screw PVE in the process. Do you really expect this to happen in PVE-oriented game?
    Monsterplay Buff, my friend.

  23. #98
    Date d'inscription
    février 2013
    Messages
    65
    Citation Envoyé par Giliodor Voir le message
    I would.
    You would punish players for not rolling a reaver?
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

  24. #99
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    4 000
    Citation Envoyé par Olfaran Voir le message
    You would punish players for not rolling a reaver?
    Are we talking solo play? Please, don't make me laugh.

  25. #100
    Date d'inscription
    février 2013
    Messages
    65
    Citation Envoyé par Giliodor Voir le message
    Are we talking solo play?
    Duels/small groups/warg packs/ranged-heavy raids. Because there is time and place for all of those.
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

 

 
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