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  1. #1
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2010
    Messages
    612

    So where do you think human go when they are dead?

    I know that noone really know about this, even Valars. Some source guess they go to a new world, where they can build it as they want. Hmm... isnt that make them god? Im not support this idea. What do you think?

    Imo, i think they'll come back to Ea, in a new form. Their memories will be wiped out. I think thats the meaning of their "gift", they can forget everything, while the elves have to watch what they loved gone and stacking their grief forever. There need to be some kind of reward and punishment for good and bad people too, so i think Eru will judge them. Good people could be reborn in a good family, or any kind of life they choose. An eagle, or a dolphin for example. Some heroic people could even become an elf maybe? In the other hand, bad people would be born in an unhappy family, or have to take the orc form... Lúthien and Arwen brought me this idea, because the elves said Arwen was like Lúthien had come on earth again. Lúthien chose the mortal life. She die as a mortal, therefore take the same path that every mortal goes. Eru wiped her memories, and send her back to Ea as Arwen.

  2. #2
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Bristol, England
    Messages
    5 685
    Citation Envoyé par Hiritier Voir le message
    I know that noone really know about this, even Valars. Some source guess they go to a new world, where they can build it as they want. Hmm... isnt that make them god? Im not support this idea. What do you think?

    Imo, i think they'll come back to Ea, in a new form. Their memories will be wiped out. I think thats the meaning of their "gift", they can forget everything, while the elves have to watch what they loved gone and stacking their grief forever. There need to be some kind of reward and punishment for good and bad people too, so i think Eru will judge them. Good people could be reborn in a good family, or any kind of life they choose. An eagle, or a dolphin for example. Some heroic people could even become an elf maybe? In the other hand, bad people would be born in an unhappy family, or have to take the orc form... Lúthien and Arwen brought me this idea, because the elves said Arwen was like Lúthien had come on earth again. Lúthien chose the mortal life. She die as a mortal, therefore take the same path that every mortal goes. Eru wiped her memories, and send her back to Ea as Arwen.
    Tolkien was devoutly Catholic, so reincarnation for Men wouldn't be at all likely even if he hadn't so strongly implied that mortality was a one-off deal. It's probably a simple case of him leaving it mysterious to allow people to imagine whatever version of the afterlife they want to - he wasn't one to force his own beliefs on his readers. Besides, Heaven would arguably be ineffable (couldn't be described in words) so it's best not to try.

  3. #3
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2012
    Messages
    449
    Citation Envoyé par Hiritier Voir le message
    Imo, i think they'll come back to Ea, in a new form.
    Quite big deal is made out of the fact that one of the crucial differences between men and elves is that men are not "bound to the Circles of the World" so that would suggest that whatever happens to them, coming back to Ea is definitely not a possibility.
    I think the general idea is that they just go chillout somewhere (no one knows where - some subsidiary of the Halls of Mandos?) until Ragnarok. Er, I mean, Dagor Dagorath.

  4. #4
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Bristol, England
    Messages
    5 685
    Citation Envoyé par Taravith Voir le message
    I think the general idea is that they just go chillout somewhere (no one knows where - some subsidiary of the Halls of Mandos?) until Ragnarok. Er, I mean, Dagor Dagorath.
    Since they went beyond the world they were beyond Mandos' domain too, as he was a worldly Power just like the other Valar. As I understand it, Men went to the Halls of Mandos for a time (analogous to the Catholic concept of Purgatory, or so it seems to me) and then went on... somewhere else. To somewhere analogous to Heaven, I'd suggest, but Tolkien was too subtle to come right out and say that. However, given that Eru Iluvatar was imagined as God (in all but name) then it's no stretch to imagine that there's supposed to be a Heaven (in all but name) as well. Not being worldly (and hence being beyond time as well) it logically couldn't be a physical place like Aman, though. so no literal halls.

  5. #5
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2010
    Messages
    612
    Citation Envoyé par Taravith Voir le message
    Quite big deal is made out of the fact that one of the crucial differences between men and elves is that men are not "bound to the Circles of the World" so that would suggest that whatever happens to them, coming back to Ea is definitely not a possibility.
    I think the general idea is that they just go chillout somewhere (no one knows where - some subsidiary of the Halls of Mandos?) until Ragnarok. Er, I mean, Dagor Dagorath.
    I know that the soul of men are not "bound to the world", but since their memories, what once made that "man"(woman), was wipe out, that person has gone, released, freed, whatever... forever. That "person" no longer exist, not "bound to the world" anymore. That's my idea though :/ . Somehow, the ability to "forget" still sound like a true "gift" to me .
    One more thing i wonder. If the men are not bound to the world, if they already went to a new world, a better one, then why they have to come back for Dagor Dagorath? I mean, they have no responsibility with Ea anymore so that isnt their battle. That's why i lean toward the "reborn" idea.

  6. #6
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2008
    Messages
    19
    I think they go to the halls of Eru Illuvater

  7. #7
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2011
    Messages
    34

    beyond the stars

    I personally believe, that after the humans in Tolkien's universe die, they go beyond the circles of the world and do battle with Morgoth and his cronies.
    That may be just me.

  8. #8
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2012
    Messages
    1
    Although Tolkien never (to my knowledge) explicitly stated where the spirits of men go after death, there are a few hints in some of his posthumously-published works.

    First, men are not reincarnated. Elves do return to life after death, and there are hints that the dwarves had some cultural belief in limited reincarnation (although there is no sustaining evidence that they actually were reincarnated; I highly doubt that they were). For men, though, it's apparent that they do not reincarnate. In some stories, such as in the Akalabeth, reincarnation would have a potentially huge impact on the direction of the plot. But there is no impact. Also, in a very early Middle-earth related poem, Tolkien presents a scene of the spirits of men leaving the world. The canon status of that poem as it relates to Tolkien's final conception of Middle-earth is highly debatable. However, it does shed some light on how Tolkien, at least initially, perceived the fate of men within his sub-creation.

    Second, men do retain their memories after death. Beren died and was resurrected with no loss of memory, knowledge or personality. In the Dagor Dagoroth, Turin Turambar returns to life to battle Morgoth; he has full knowledge and memory of his personal claims against Morgoth.

    Finally, the lore of Middle-earth was conceived and developed as a mythological pre-history of the real world. The geography is even closely analogous to real-world Europe. This connection is made even more obvious in the early versions of The Silmarillion, in which Tol Eressea eventually becomes England. In Tolkien's mythology, men are given a distinct place in the universe by Iluvatar, a place and a role the elves do not understand much in the same way that few men understand elves. It is reasonable to assume that this place is the same one men hold in the real world, from a Judeo-Christian, specifically Roman Catholic, worldview. In such a case, it's possible that Tolkien would not explicitly elaborate on it. He might expect it to be understood by his audience.

  9. #9
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Localisation
    Texas
    Messages
    1 946
    Ain't sure about Men but when Hobbits die I hear they go to the Lands of Neverending Pie.

    Mmmm pie...
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

  10. #10
    Date d'inscription
    décembre 2008
    Localisation
    Middle Earth, Arda
    Messages
    3 498
    Citation Envoyé par bambubambubambu Voir le message
    Ain't sure about Men but when Hobbits die I hear they go to the Lands of Neverending Pie. Mmmm pie...
    Is the Hobbit Heaven where Holy Hornblower will finally learn to make good pies? I don't want to see another rancid pie!

 

 

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