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Discussion: Balrog with the ring?

  1. #26
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2007
    Localisation
    In the cupboard under the stairs. (or is it under the stalls?)
    Messages
    3 129
    Citation Envoyé par BirdofHermes Voir le message
    It was hiding. It was still scared from what had happened to its friends at Thangorodrim. The same goes for Sauron and Smaug, Sauron just got over it quicker.
    And it isn't beastly, it just slaughtered an entire Dwarf kingdom because those pesky Dwarves woke it. Aren't you cranky when someone wakes you up for no good reason?
    Hiding for thousands of years?

    I think you've been hiding Bird...

    When all his feathers be from him gone
    He standeth still here as a stone
    grin.....
    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, And count your change, And try to walk the line"

  2. #27
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Middle-earth
    Messages
    1 700
    Citation Envoyé par Boraxxe Voir le message
    Hiding for thousands of years?
    Yes, trying not to attract attention to itself.
    When you don't age, you can wait as long as you want until you think the threat is over.
    Just look at Smaug, he hid much longer than the Balrog.



    I think you've been hiding Bird...

    grin.....
    I don't follow.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  3. #28
    Date d'inscription
    février 2010
    Messages
    44
    I think the Watcher and Durin's bane had no allegiance to anyone after Morgoth's fall (it is questionable whether the watcher ever had allegiance to anyone). If we compare the powers of Durin's bane and Sauron we know both were initially maiar. As Morgoth's lieutenants I would rank Gothmog and Sauron very close to each other. It is reasonable to believe that Durin's bane was significantly weaker than Gothmog and thus weaker than Sauron. With the Ring it could probably have challenged Sauron, but we do not know if it would have desired to do so. The ring corrupts, yes, but the balrog is already corrupt and I think the ring has to latch onto some sort of initial desire. So what does the Durin's bane wish? I sure have no idea.

    Citation Envoyé par Harper_of_Gondolin Voir le message
    Hmmmm, Frodo's power over/with the One Ring ...

    This brings up an opportunity to point out something that a lot of people seem to have missed from reading the Lord of the Rings (Peter Jackson certainly missed it: the scene is absent from the movies): Frodo fails the quest to destroy the Ring; at the last moment, he recants and claims the Ring for himself.

    Obviously, it is not Gollum that achieves this pupose, either: it is the Ring itself that destroys the Ring.

    Follow: on the slopes of Orodruin, Frodo desperately fends off an attack by Gollum, then, with the One Ring clenched in his fist, delivers the imprecation, if [Gollum] ever dares lay hands upon [Frodo], [Gollum himself] will be cast into the Cracks of Doom.

    It is the Ring's own Malice and Power that achieves its destruction.

    The stage for this is set much earlier when Frodo accepts Gollum's oath of Service, "on The Preciousssss": the warning is given (and Frodo's intuitive understanding is revealed), "It will hold you to your promise".

    Frodo did have Power to command the Ring; given sufficient time to grow (millennia, perhaps), he could have become a Power himself, like unto Sauron et al.

    HoG

    I agree with you on the significance on the fact that Frodo fails. Mostly I see it as a mark of Tolkien's literary genius and can't really agree on your theory on the ring causing its own destruction. I can certainly see where you're coming from, but I believe that Gandalf hints strongly on something like fate playing its part. It is also stated that the ring has a will on its own. It prevents Isildur from destroying it by using his grief against him: Isildur wants to keep it as a heirloom, reminder that he avenged his father. It also tries to get back to its master. The ring's corruptive nature certainly proves to be its undoing but saying that it destroys itself sounds to me rather far fetched.

    As to Frodo's powers, it is questionable whether he could have ever used any greater power from the ring without perishing. Even if he could have, he could never have become a powerful entity himself. He could have been horrible to behold with the ring certainly, but even with it he could not have contributed the powers the ring possessed. Thus he couldn't have exceeded the level of power Sauron poured to the ring. If it would have been taken from him then he would have probably been a little more than a shadow. This would require him actively seeking to use the ring. Gollums possessed the thing for a long time, thought wore it little, and then it only gave him invisibility. It gave him no additional powers even when he wore it (though it did give him an unnaturally long life) for he did not really seek to use it.
    [center][charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/06205000000182efb/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

    [i]"For even the very wise cannot see all ends."[/i][/center]

  4. #29
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240
    Citation Envoyé par Halla Voir le message
    for he did not really seek to use it.
    Gollum sought out to use the ring as little as possible yes, but to keep it as far away from Mordor as he could without treading into Angmar. Thus, Moria is a place where he would be safe. BUT! If he had wished not to use it he would never tread up to the goblins, and kill one on occasion, when he wasn't in the mood for more fish. (Eating fish 365 days a year gets a little repetitive after a while.) So he went up every week or so, so he could get a fresh goblin instead of waiting for a goblin to come down the path because the Great-Goblin wanted fish. He did NOT seek to use it but sought to keep it for himself. The only reason he sought not to use it was because he had to have known somehow that it would drive him insane and make him take it to Mordor eventually, even though he did end up in Mordor at one point it was because the Orcs of Sauron had captured him and taken him back (Goblins probably told.... the sneaky little..... oh well I'll call a champ.).

    I was just further explaining this so those who did not understand why he didn't seek to use it know.

  5. #30
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Bristol, England
    Messages
    6 182
    Citation Envoyé par Aideani Voir le message
    Gollum sought out to use the ring as little as possible yes, but to keep it as far away from Mordor as he could without treading into Angmar.
    That's not really what happened (at least as Gandalf tells the tale second-hand), it was something about how the light had started paining Gollum's eyes so he sought refuge underground (hoping also to find some hidden secrets at the roots of the mountains), and there he stayed. All he found down there was darkness and misery; the Ring grew tired of his smallness and meanness (he was of no use to it, even as a slave) and it tormented him, so he ended up with a demented love-hate thing for it. Mordor only came into it later after he'd lost the Ring, he went looking for it and ended up there.

  6. #31
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2011
    Localisation
    Missouri
    Messages
    68
    I don't know a lot about Balrogs, but from what I have read, they kind of sound like they'd be slightly smarter trolls plus tons of flame. I never imagined them wise enough to be able to do anything with the ring should they get it. I thought that if they would have caught and killed Frodo in Moria, that they would have just stomped on him and kept chasing whoever else was alive without even thinking about the ring. Of course thats just me. Is there a book or something that I missed that delves more deeply into the nature of the Belrogs?

  7. #32
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Messages
    823
    Citation Envoyé par ElffriendNick Voir le message
    I don't know a lot about Balrogs, but from what I have read, they kind of sound like they'd be slightly smarter trolls plus tons of flame. I never imagined them wise enough to be able to do anything with the ring should they get it. I thought that if they would have caught and killed Frodo in Moria, that they would have just stomped on him and kept chasing whoever else was alive without even thinking about the ring. Of course thats just me. Is there a book or something that I missed that delves more deeply into the nature of the Belrogs?
    Balrogs were Maiar, which are basically the same types of creature as Gandalf, Saruman and even Sauron himself. So you can see that they were far from being "slightly smarter" versions of trolls. They were very intelligent and very powerful beings.
    There is quite a bit written about Balrogs in the Silmarillion and also in the appendices of the Lord of the Rings I think from memory. Probably your best bet if you're just looking for a little background material on them is to just google "balrog", that should be enough to get you started.
    Dernière modification par Wolfhelm ; 06/10/2013 à 06h34.

  8. #33
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2007
    Localisation
    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Messages
    18 200
    Citation Envoyé par ElffriendNick Voir le message
    I don't know a lot about Balrogs, but from what I have read, they kind of sound like they'd be slightly smarter trolls plus tons of flame. I never imagined them wise enough to be able to do anything with the ring should they get it. I thought that if they would have caught and killed Frodo in Moria, that they would have just stomped on him and kept chasing whoever else was alive without even thinking about the ring. Of course thats just me. Is there a book or something that I missed that delves more deeply into the nature of the Belrogs?
    Citation Envoyé par Wolfhelm Voir le message
    Balrogs were Maiar, which are basically the same types of creature as Gandalf, Saruman and even Sauron himself. So you can see that they were far from being "slightly smarter" versions of trolls. They were very intelligent and very powerful beings.
    There is quite a bit written about Balrogs in the Silmarillion and also in the appendices of the Lord of the Rings I think from memory. Probably your best bet if you're just looking for a little background material on them is to just google "balrog", that should be enough to get you started.


    Wasn't the Balrog the one that contested Gandalf in a contest of spell casting at a locked door in Moria just after the encounter at Balin's Tomb?
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  9. #34
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2007
    Localisation
    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Messages
    18 200
    Citation Envoyé par BirdofHermes Voir le message
    Just look at Smaug, he hid much longer than the Balrog.





    .
    Other than playing riddle games with Bilbo and getting shot in the chest with an arrow, which part did he play in history? From what I read in The Hobbit, he was a full fledged dragon, the real deal. The last of them also, if I am not mistaken.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  10. #35
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2012
    Localisation
    2 Waterbank Road, Eryn Lelryn, Falathlorn Homesteads
    Messages
    1 875
    Citation Envoyé par Nymphonic Voir le message
    Other than playing riddle games with Bilbo and getting shot in the chest with an arrow, which part did he play in history? From what I read in The Hobbit, he was a full fledged dragon, the real deal. The last of them also, if I am not mistaken.
    He forced the dwarves from Erebor, and put into play the finding of the ring by Bilbo, the most unlikely of those to find it. Had he not assaulted Erebor, the quest to retake it would never have happened, and Gollum would have either lost it to an orc/goblin or kept it hidden until he finally died. What happens after that is unknown, but it'd be a far cry different than what did happen.

    I'd say that's a pretty big part of history.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  11. #36
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2010
    Messages
    1 034
    I think is clear that both Balrogs and Dragons have a tendency for lazyness. Balrogs might be stuborn enough to not listen to even Sauron they are "Individualistic lazy entities of evil" thats my take.

  12. #37
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Bristol, England
    Messages
    6 182
    Citation Envoyé par Al. Voir le message
    I think is clear that both Balrogs and Dragons have a tendency for lazyness. Balrogs might be stuborn enough to not listen to even Sauron they are "Individualistic lazy entities of evil" thats my take.
    Balrogs couldn't be that lazy or the Balrog of Moria wouldn't have gone to see what all the racket was upstairs. Dragons, now, were famously lazy. Have a big meal, nice bit of treasure to make a comfy bed out of, and they'd doze off happily for centuries. One other difference - Balrogs didn't seem to mind having Orcs about the place, but dragons seem to have liked their peace and quiet and having the place all to themselves (like when Glaurung kicked the Orcs out of Nargothrond).

  13. #38
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2010
    Messages
    1 034
    Citation Envoyé par Radhruin_EU Voir le message
    Balrogs couldn't be that lazy or the Balrog of Moria wouldn't have gone to see what all the racket was upstairs. Dragons, now, were famously lazy. Have a big meal, nice bit of treasure to make a comfy bed out of, and they'd doze off happily for centuries. One other difference - Balrogs didn't seem to mind having Orcs about the place, but dragons seem to have liked their peace and quiet and having the place all to themselves (like when Glaurung kicked the Orcs out of Nargothrond).
    Barlog aint' lazy? Ofcourse he is!, he only woke up because the racket the orcs and goblins were doing and possibly just followed...he was sleep-walking for all I know...Balrogs are lazy.

    Dragons are the same way, the difference is that dragons are not sleep walkers, they are alert at moments possibly that is why they dislike Orcs they would make noise all the time making the lazy dragon always alert, so no orcs no sound, sleeping lazy dragon

  14. #39
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Localisation
    Texas
    Messages
    2 118
    Citation Envoyé par Al. Voir le message
    Barlog aint' lazy? Ofcourse he is!, he only woke up because the racket the orcs and goblins were doing and possibly just followed...he was sleep-walking for all I know...Balrogs are lazy.
    Been awhile since I read the books, but I don't think it was stated exactly what the Balrog was doing, but I doubt he was sleeping. Moria was a huge place, and I reckon he was the one 'large and in charge' since driving the dwarves out. Probably just busy in some other part of the place, until he came to see what all the ruckus was about like Rad said.
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

  15. #40
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2012
    Localisation
    2 Waterbank Road, Eryn Lelryn, Falathlorn Homesteads
    Messages
    1 875
    Citation Envoyé par bambubambubambu Voir le message
    Been awhile since I read the books, but I don't think it was stated exactly what the Balrog was doing, but I doubt he was sleeping. Moria was a huge place, and I reckon he was the one 'large and in charge' since driving the dwarves out. Probably just busy in some other part of the place, until he came to see what all the ruckus was about like Rad said.
    He/It fled to the Misty Mountains after Morgoth's defeat at the Battle of Wrath in the First Age. It slept (though slept can be construed as waited, hid, or hibernated) beneath Khazad-Dum for over 5000 years before Durin's folk awoke him/it.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  16. #41
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2010
    Messages
    1 034
    Exactly, the thing wasn't just "In charge" it probably been there before goblins and dwarves came.

  17. #42
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Localisation
    Texas
    Messages
    2 118
    Citation Envoyé par LethalLethality Voir le message
    He/It fled to the Misty Mountains after Morgoth's defeat at the Battle of Wrath in the First Age. It slept (though slept can be construed as waited, hid, or hibernated) beneath Khazad-Dum for over 5000 years before Durin's folk awoke him/it.
    Sorry, I meant after Durin's folk woke him up. I've not come across anything that said what the Balrog was doing from then until the Fellowhip encountred him. I suppose he could have just gone back into hibernation, but I don't think the books say for sure.
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

  18. #43
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Middle-earth
    Messages
    1 700
    Citation Envoyé par Nymphonic Voir le message
    Other than playing riddle games with Bilbo and getting shot in the chest with an arrow, which part did he play in history? From what I read in The Hobbit, he was a full fledged dragon, the real deal. The last of them also, if I am not mistaken.
    Took over the greatest Dwarf Kingdom in Middle-earth during TA, I'd say that's pretty significant in itself. Also forced the relocation of an entire human city which later re-relocated back and became a real headache for cartographers. Cause of the quest for the Lonely Mountain in which the One Ring was found.

    Not the last of them, just the last in Middle-earth. There were said to be more of these great dragons in the Northern Wastes (which is where Smaug came from before he descended on Erebor, he had presumably been hiding up north since narrowly escaping death in the War of Wrath).
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  19. #44
    Date d'inscription
    octobre 2012
    Messages
    174
    The Balrog woke up because Mrs. B cracked him over the head with a cast-iron skillet: the furnace wasn't working, the plumbing was shot, there was a draught coming in from the west gate, and vermin were running all over the place; putting on his hat, he complained that she never cleaned up the place.

    Yes, Balrogs are that lazy.

    HoG

  20. #45
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Localisation
    Texas
    Messages
    2 118
    Citation Envoyé par Harper_of_Gondolin Voir le message
    The Balrog woke up because Mrs. B cracked him over the head with a cast-iron skillet: the furnace wasn't working, the plumbing was shot, there was a draught coming in from the west gate, and vermin were running all over the place; putting on his hat, he complained that she never cleaned up the place.

    Yes, Balrogs are that lazy.

    HoG
    Mighty awful handymen those Balrogs are...
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

  21. #46
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2007
    Localisation
    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Messages
    18 200
    Citation Envoyé par LethalLethality Voir le message
    He forced the dwarves from Erebor, and put into play the finding of the ring by Bilbo, the most unlikely of those to find it. Had he not assaulted Erebor, the quest to retake it would never have happened, and Gollum would have either lost it to an orc/goblin or kept it hidden until he finally died. What happens after that is unknown, but it'd be a far cry different than what did happen.

    I'd say that's a pretty big part of history.
    Citation Envoyé par BirdofHermes Voir le message
    Took over the greatest Dwarf Kingdom in Middle-earth during TA, I'd say that's pretty significant in itself. Also forced the relocation of an entire human city which later re-relocated back and became a real headache for cartographers. Cause of the quest for the Lonely Mountain in which the One Ring was found.

    Not the last of them, just the last in Middle-earth. There were said to be more of these great dragons in the Northern Wastes (which is where Smaug came from before he descended on Erebor, he had presumably been hiding up north since narrowly escaping death in the War of Wrath).

    No, I mean back in the days when Bilbo's great great grandparents weren't even born yet. You know, way back when.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  22. #47
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Varda
    Messages
    302
    Balrogs are created by Morgoth the first and most powerful dark lord. They answer to him only. Since he is "dead" or better said - Casted to Void by Valar.


    There are wo speculations.

    Ring doesn't have any effect.

    1.Did you ever wonder one ring would even affect Balrogs - demons of the ancient world? Maybe ring wouldn't mean anything at all to them. They already possses immense destructive power, creatures without fear.mercy or reluctance. They are bringers of doom literally,

    Since they are created by Morgorth and Sauron was just his servant, there is possibility ring would not have any power over them.

    Balrogs are different. They where 2nd most powerful Evil creatures in Middle-Earth , only to be surpassed by Dragons.

    F Example if Smaug took one ring - I think he would see it as his "precious" only as Smeagol once said. But only as treasure.

    2. Ring does have effect , but only thanks to the will of Morgoth which still has power.

    Dont forget Morgoth is actually an Evil himself, a cause for all suffering,death and destruction. Despite the fact he is in the Void , he can still influence those beings created by him, especially Balorgs.

    So if Balrog got the ring, maybe his will would command him to try consume everything or help aid Sauron? It would something terrible to behold. I fear that combined forces of Galadriel,Elrond and Gandalf wouldn't be enough to stop it.


    Anyway, those are just speculations, We'll never know...

  23. #48
    Date d'inscription
    septembre 2011
    Localisation
    Missouri
    Messages
    68
    OK, just throwing this out there, if the ring has a mind of its own and in a sense, a great deal of Sauron in it, could it not control weak minded creatures. I mean, in a sense, everyone who came in contact with the ring was controlled by it, Frodo was continually battling with an overwhelming power that was trying to force him to put it on and reveal himself. If the ring were to be worn by a servant of Morgoth or Sauron, say, a servant that was created by Morgoth and not a "mixed breed" such as the goblins and orcs, could that being not be controlled by the ring itself? Again, just throwing the question out there as my knowledge of Balrogs is limited.

  24. #49
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Bristol, England
    Messages
    6 182
    Citation Envoyé par Melunielsigh Voir le message
    Balrogs are created by Morgoth the first and most powerful dark lord. They answer to him only.
    The Balrogs were demonic 'fallen' Maiar, spirits of fire who'd entered Melkor's service willingly (just as Sauron did) but who'd originally been created by Iluvatar.

    Ring doesn't have any effect.
    Why think that at all? We know that the Ring would work just fine for another Maia - Gandalf could have taken it if he'd wanted to, and Saruman of course wanted it for himself. The catch was that if they had done, they'd have ended up being just like Sauron, which was why Gandalf said he didn't dare have anything to do with it. As the Balrogs were Maiar and already extremely evil, it seems sensible to imagine that the Ring would have served one of them just fine as well. The only thing it wouldn't have done would have been to render them invisible when they wore it. And yes, a Balrog with the Ring would by implication have been pretty much unstoppable, because it'd have had its own considerable power plus most of that of Sauron.

    As for the will of Morgoth - no, it didn't really work like that. Because Morgoth had been cast out of the world into the Void, he was outside time and so his will could no longer affect Middle-earth. However, an impersonal evil that had come from him was still around because before he'd been cast out, he'd expended most of his power to extend a subtle, evil influence over the whole world, so that it couldn't be removed by any means short of destroying everything.

  25. #50
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Localisation
    Middle-earth
    Messages
    1 700
    Citation Envoyé par Nymphonic Voir le message
    No, I mean back in the days when Bilbo's great great grandparents weren't even born yet. You know, way back when.
    You mean First Age? No mention of him so he probably wasn't one of the early winged firedrakes. I assume he was bred later to be used in the WoW.



    Citation Envoyé par Melunielsigh Voir le message
    Balrogs are created by Morgoth the first and most powerful dark lord. They answer to him only. Since he is "dead" or better said - Casted to Void by Valar.


    There are wo speculations.

    Ring doesn't have any effect.

    1.Did you ever wonder one ring would even affect Balrogs - demons of the ancient world? Maybe ring wouldn't mean anything at all to them. They already possses immense destructive power, creatures without fear.mercy or reluctance. They are bringers of doom literally,

    Since they are created by Morgorth and Sauron was just his servant, there is possibility ring would not have any power over them.

    Balrogs are different. They where 2nd most powerful Evil creatures in Middle-Earth , only to be surpassed by Dragons.

    F Example if Smaug took one ring - I think he would see it as his "precious" only as Smeagol once said. But only as treasure.

    2. Ring does have effect , but only thanks to the will of Morgoth which still has power.

    Dont forget Morgoth is actually an Evil himself, a cause for all suffering,death and destruction. Despite the fact he is in the Void , he can still influence those beings created by him, especially Balorgs.

    So if Balrog got the ring, maybe his will would command him to try consume everything or help aid Sauron? It would something terrible to behold. I fear that combined forces of Galadriel,Elrond and Gandalf wouldn't be enough to stop it.


    Anyway, those are just speculations, We'll never know...
    No.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

 

 
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