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  1. #1
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240

    Eagles! Y u no fly Frodo to Mordor?!

    WHY THE EAGLES COULDN'T JUST FLY TO MORDOR:

    The Eagles are not affected by the tidings of humans, they just don't care. Their pride would keep them from simply delivering people to Mordor like a taxi. The only reason they help Gandalf is because Gwaihir (The Eagle Lord) owes him a favor. But he only owed Gandalf a small favor, not winning the entire war. The main reason the eagles didn't help more is this: The Maia are there to guide. Gandalf is a Maia, he is a teacher to the people of middle earth, and just like as a teacher doesn't take your exams for you, he didn't fight their fights for them. Gandalf was so powerful that he was forbidden from challenging Sauron directly. He could've stood outside the gates of Minas Tirith, farted and every orc there would have dropped dead. Same principle applies to Gwaihir, he can only guide not win the war for them.

    Yes. Gandalf's fart is that powerful of a move.

    In Hipster terms:
    Eagles don't care 'bout us humans and dey ain't taxis. The wizards and eagles are so buff, they could defeat Mordor on their own. Dey like teachers. But dey only dere to guide, not fight. Plus dem eagles are too cool to be taxis.

    EDIT: Also, it would've made for one of the worst and most boring books ever.

  2. #2
    Date d'inscription
    janvier 2012
    Messages
    316
    Because if Frodo dropped the ring while he was a thousand feet in the air then they would all be screwed!

  3. #3
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2007
    Messages
    313
    Hmm, why not bomb Mordor with thousands of cheap copies of the Ring... Let Sauron sort out the mess.

  4. #4
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2011
    Localisation
    Lothlorien
    Messages
    1 708
    What if the Nazgul (on Fellbeasts of course) had attacked with the Eagles in Mid-flight, and somehow managed to knock either Frodo or the Ring off one of the Eagles? Or what if Sauron or Saruman created inclement weather?
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  5. #5
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240
    Citation Envoyé par Selebrimbor Voir le message
    What if the Nazgul (on Fellbeasts of course) had attacked with the Eagles in Mid-flight, and somehow managed to knock either Frodo or the Ring off one of the Eagles? Or what if Sauron or Saruman created inclement weather?
    Sauron and Saruman had no control over weather; the most Saruman could do was shoot lightning out of his hand. Sauron could do almost nothing about the weather because he was not a Maia, he was just a servant of Morgoth. But I see where you are going with the Nazgul, only problem, they wouldn't know they were in Mordor until the ring was destroyed.

  6. #6
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240
    Citation Envoyé par Egorvlad Voir le message
    Hmm, why not bomb Mordor with thousands of cheap copies of the Ring... Let Sauron sort out the mess.
    That would make for a pretty cool comedy.

  7. #7
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240
    Citation Envoyé par BackAgainAndThere Voir le message
    Because if Frodo dropped the ring while he was a thousand feet in the air then they would all be screwed!
    And, they would probably not know where they are.

  8. #8
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Messages
    1 583
    Citation Envoyé par Aideani Voir le message
    Sauron and Saruman had no control over weather; the most Saruman could do was shoot lightning out of his hand. Sauron could do almost nothing about the weather because he was not a Maia, he was just a servant of Morgoth. But I see where you are going with the Nazgul, only problem, they wouldn't know they were in Mordor until the ring was destroyed.
    Are you referring to the nifty wizard fight between Saruman and Gandalf in "Fellowship" ? That only happened in the movie. In the book it was much more subdued. They had a conversation about the Ring and using it and then Gandalf was taken to a high place as captive.

    Sauron did indeed have some control over the weather - darkness poured out of Mordor once he set his armies in motion against Gondor and did not dissipate until the siege was broken and a wind from the sea came up Anduin (pushing Aragorn's fleet along with it). It may only have been some sort of control over Orodruin but it did seem to erupt when Sauron was about and active such as when he returned to Mordor in the Second Age after the fall of Numenore and again when he returned in the Third Age after leaving Dol Guldur.

    Sauron was originally a Maia of Aule but joined Morgoth early on in the history, before the awakening of the Elves and the breaking of Utumno.
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  9. #9
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240
    Citation Envoyé par tuor66 Voir le message
    Are you referring to the nifty wizard fight between Saruman and Gandalf in "Fellowship" ? That only happened in the movie. In the book it was much more subdued. They had a conversation about the Ring and using it and then Gandalf was taken to a high place as captive.

    Sauron did indeed have some control over the weather - darkness poured out of Mordor once he set his armies in motion against Gondor and did not dissipate until the siege was broken and a wind from the sea came up Anduin (pushing Aragorn's fleet along with it). It may only have been some sort of control over Orodruin but it did seem to erupt when Sauron was about and active such as when he returned to Mordor in the Second Age after the fall of Numenore and again when he returned in the Third Age after leaving Dol Guldur.

    Sauron was originally a Maia of Aule but joined Morgoth early on in the history, before the awakening of the Elves and the breaking of Utumno.
    Pretty sure it might be two towers, but not sure. I saw the movies when I was really little and I didn't know we had the books so I couldn't read them . Then when I figured out we had them I started reading them. Only just finishing The Hobbit, so again, not very far in.

  10. #10
    Date d'inscription
    octobre 2010
    Messages
    429
    Citation Envoyé par Aideani Voir le message
    Pretty sure it might be two towers, but not sure.
    It's definitely in the Fellowship of the Ring. The confrontation between Sauruman and Gandalf takes place before the Council of Elrond.

    And, getting back to the OP, here is some discussion on the issue from Tolkien Gateway:

    - The Eagles coming from the air would have been fairly obvious and defensible to Sauron; the Fell beasts and/or archers would most likely have stopped the attempt. The Eagles expressed fear in The Hobbit about going into the Lands of Men because of their bows.

    This often cited argument could possibly have been countered with a parallel divertive battle plan, more or less like the Battle of the Morannon begun to help Frodo.

    - The Eagles could have possibly become corrupted by the power of the Ring and would have most likely attempted to prevent the destruction. Gandalf himself not only knew that anyone might and would refuse to throw in the Ring, but he was also afraid of it; the Eagles, as Maiar, could have been corruptive and dangerous.

    - Although Tolkien does not mention anything about it, it's possible that the Eagles were somehow limited in how they acted and participated, similar to how the Wizards were prohibited to directly fight Sauron by physical or supernatural force. The Eagles are seen to aid the free peoples and even participate in battles, but it's possible that for affairs of greater scope (such as Sauron and the Ring) they were either afraid, unwilling, incapable, or not allowed to take any part.

    - The Eagles's availability and power must have been limited. Gwaihir only arrives at Isengard because he is sent by Radagast. Once he rescues Gandalf, the Wizard asks him how far he can bear him, to which the Eagle replies "...not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens." He took Gandalf just to Edoras, so he could find a horse to ride, and then departed.

    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eagles
    "I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend," Faramir in TTT by JRRT.

  11. #11
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2008
    Localisation
    Mirkwood
    Messages
    583
    Citation Envoyé par Aideani Voir le message
    Sauron and Saruman had no control over weather; the most Saruman could do was shoot lightning out of his hand. Sauron could do almost nothing about the weather because he was not a Maia, he was just a servant of Morgoth. But I see where you are going with the Nazgul, only problem, they wouldn't know they were in Mordor until the ring was destroyed.
    Sauron was a Maia under Auel before he switched sides and served Morgoth.

  12. #12
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240
    Citation Envoyé par Wilros Voir le message
    Once he rescues Gandalf, the Wizard asks him how far he can bear him, to which the Eagle replies "...not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens." He took Gandalf just to Edoras, so he could find a horse to ride, and then departed.

    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eagles
    The only horse Gandalf would ride was Shadowfax. The king among horses. And a problem with the 'The eagles would've gone corrupt because of the ring' HOW COULD THEY USE IT?! THEY CAN'T PUT IT ON THEIR FREAKING CLAWS THE CLAWS ARE TOO BIG! THE EAGLES CAN'T WANT IT!

  13. #13
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Localisation
    Texas
    Messages
    2 055
    The Eagles thing again? I'm all for discussion, but ain't this particular dead horse been beat to a bloody mess?
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

  14. #14
    Date d'inscription
    juin 2011
    Messages
    1 645
    Citation Envoyé par Aideani Voir le message
    The only horse Gandalf would ride was Shadowfax. The king among horses. And a problem with the 'The eagles would've gone corrupt because of the ring' HOW COULD THEY USE IT?! THEY CAN'T PUT IT ON THEIR FREAKING CLAWS THE CLAWS ARE TOO BIG! THE EAGLES CAN'T WANT IT!
    Shadowfax was not "The king among horses", he was the Lord of the Mearas. Not the same thing at all. It's also not the only horse Gandalf would ride, just the one he rode in the books.

    Being corrupted by the Ring has nothing to do with being able to wear it. Isildur never wore it but it affected his mind as soon as he had it compelling him not to destroy it.

    The wil of the Ring is very strong and will overcome most people's minds just being near it. Consider Boromir.
    How to get help on the Tech Forums and how to contact Turbine

    Please reply to the topic or PM me if a solution I posted works for you: The more data I can gather the better I can help.

  15. #15
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2007
    Localisation
    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Messages
    18 100
    Citation Envoyé par Aideani Voir le message

    EDIT: Also, it would've made for one of the worst and most boring books ever.
    This right here in a nutshell.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  16. #16
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240
    Citation Envoyé par Nymphonic Voir le message
    This right here in a nutshell.
    Really, it's not that hard to tell.

  17. #17
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2007
    Localisation
    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Messages
    18 100
    Citation Envoyé par Aideani Voir le message
    Really, it's not that hard to tell.

    It's true. I would say just about every work of fiction has a plot hole somewhere, and a fine work like Lord of the Rings is no exception. That's like the Matrix. That would be a BORING movie if you just put a ton of puppies on program loops instead of making a virtual world with human batteries hooked to it.

    My favorite plot hole is Princess Leia bringing the Death Star plans to Yavin even though she knew she was being tracked lol.

    Are there any plot holes in the book version of "The Hobbit"? I cannot think of any right off the top of my head.


    EDIT: Got logged out while submitting this post. Grrrr.......
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  18. #18
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2012
    Localisation
    Fangorn Forest
    Messages
    340
    Citation Envoyé par Selebrimbor Voir le message
    What if the Nazgul (on Fellbeasts of course) had attacked with the Eagles in Mid-flight, and somehow managed to knock either Frodo or the Ring off one of the Eagles? Or what if Sauron or Saruman created inclement weather?
    What if Shelob captured Frodo while he was trudging all the way to Mordor? What if he had to duel with Gollum at the last second?

    Citation Envoyé par Aideani Voir le message
    EDIT: Also, it would've made for one of the worst and most boring books ever.
    Well it would have had a complete book I. That would be still far less boring than that play about a Danish prince who ignores his father's ghost and goes on to be king.

  19. #19
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2012
    Localisation
    Fangorn Forest
    Messages
    340
    Citation Envoyé par Nymphonic Voir le message
    It's true. I would say just about every work of fiction has a plot hole somewhere, and a fine work like Lord of the Rings is no exception. That's like the Matrix. That would be a BORING movie if you just put a ton of puppies on program loops instead of making a virtual world with human batteries hooked to it.

    My favorite plot hole is Princess Leia bringing the Death Star plans to Yavin even though she knew she was being tracked lol.

    Are there any plot holes in the book version of "The Hobbit"? I cannot think of any right off the top of my head.


    EDIT: Got logged out while submitting this post. Grrrr.......
    Plot holes? It depends how you look at them. One way is a plot swiss cheese filled with Deus Ex Machina. Except that really isn't true considering most of the characters bailing them out are already introduced.

    Plot:
    Trolls : bailed out by Gandalf
    Goblins: most of the party and dwarves are bailed out by Gandalf
    Riddles in the dark: Bilbo saves himself.
    Wargs: bailed out by Eagles

    interlude where Gandalf helps get Beorn to bail out the company

    Quite a bit were Bilbo bails out the dwarves, mostly with the One Ring.

    Plot hole alert!: There is the question of Dwarf survival in waterproof casks. Sure, they should breath (waterproof != airtight). But how much do they (it gets pretty close, especially since most of them didn't leak)? Also dwarves in leaky casks (a few of them) were likely to die of hypothermia. Apparently dwarves really do have that high a vitality score.

    Finally, Bilbo's ring is no match for a dragon (Tolkien wouldn't make it the One Ring for awhile, nor would Bilbo have the power to make it so). So we go back to the standard plot:
    Bard slays Smaug, bails out company.
    Company is repeatedly bailed out, especially during the 5 armies (Dwalin, Beorn, and the Eagles show up glad to help).
    Bilbo goes home (much less help needed).

    I suppose you could call it a "heroic journey" (especially for kids) as Bilbo goes from being bailed out all the time to bailing out the dwarves (with the help of the ring). Once things go beyond a hobbit (dragons, wars), he goes back to needing such help. I wouldn't go claiming the reason people like the Hobbit is because of the plot.

  20. #20
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2007
    Messages
    313
    You forgot Bilbo bailing himself and the company from the giant spiders, actually being the one who found the back door, being smart enough to find Smaug's weak spot, and executing a very daring stratagem to blackmail Thorin out of a standoff with Arkenstone. I'd say Bilbo does a lot of heroic stuff for a small and timid hobbit...

  21. #21
    Date d'inscription
    avril 2011
    Localisation
    Lothlorien
    Messages
    1 708
    Citation Envoyé par Jewl_of_the_lake Voir le message
    Sauron was a Maia under Auel before he switched sides and served Morgoth.
    ^

    /10chars
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  22. #22
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2011
    Localisation
    Land of Entrapment (come on vacation, leave on probation)
    Messages
    347

    It's obvious

    Unless I failed to see it all of you miss the obvious reason. The great eagles moving over Mordor would not fail to draw the attention of the eye of Sauron. Elrond and Gandalf were plain that the only hope for success for the ring-bearer's mission was in stealth, hence the choice of a hobbit (among other reasons).
    "Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." -C. S. Lewis-

  23. #23
    Date d'inscription
    mars 2007
    Localisation
    Texas
    Messages
    2 055
    Okay somebody had to post it...

    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

  24. #24
    Date d'inscription
    novembre 2010
    Localisation
    UK
    Messages
    89
    Citation Envoyé par bambubambubambu Voir le message
    Okay somebody had to post it...

    You just won the interweb sir:P
    Cuthilion
    Children of Iluvatar
    Laurelin

  25. #25
    Date d'inscription
    février 2012
    Localisation
    My house
    Messages
    240
    Citation Envoyé par Aladdar Voir le message
    You just won the interweb sir:P
    Don't you mean dah Intwerwebzezes?

 

 
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