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  1. #51
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    Dec 2007
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    Danquanngaytho's several posts list the questions I'm also wanting answered. Thanks Danquanngaytho, also hoping they get addressed.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever View Post
    ^This right here. It sums up so much of the frustration from Lotro players the last few years. It feels like class/balance/LI decisions are made with only the barest knowledge of said classes. I'm not asking devs to be t5 raiders. But they need to be cognizant of what a high end player values or doesn't value in terms of stats/legacies/traits etc. Otherwise the decisions feel like shots in the dark. Orion was the last dev I felt like understood the class I play.
    Orion was a true lover of this game, and played it as we did. He still streams it occasionally to this day. He was laid off after Rohan, I don't know which expac it was but likely HD which saw the demise of many a career at Turbine. His replacement is Vastin. Vastin is a lover of math. But the lore, artistry and feel of the game are things that escape him. That's not to say he hasn't done some things right. Nor is it to say Orion was infallible, he was roasted more than a few times over champ and mini changes iirc.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by danquanngaytho View Post
    After another day testing the LI, I have couple of questions:

    1. What will happen to your traceries when your characters reach the maximum level requirement?
    They will no longer provide benefits to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by danquanngaytho View Post
    2. Will you be unable to equip the LIs if you don't slot new traceries that are suitable for your level?
    Yes, you'll still be able to equip LIs if they have traceries that are below your level. Importantly, the maximum level is not just within the range of the tracery itself - each tracery range is still usable in the subsequent range, you just can't improve them into that level range, so you'll want to replace them with better ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by danquanngaytho View Post
    3. What happened to all the Enhancement Runes that you use on the below level traceries? For example, if my traceries for the level range 116-120 are fully upgraded by Enhancement Runes, will those runes be completely lost if I slot new traceries for level 121-140 in the LI? Is there anyway to recollect these runes after the traceries are not suitable for the character's levels?
    If you use an Enhancement Rune, it's used, so you won't get it back. However, the iLvl increase will be baked on the slot, so if you unslot it or replace it with another tracery in the same range, the iLvl increases you've achieved with Enhancement Runes will remain. You can also - once you're able to - slot in a higher iLvl tracery, it'll just increase to that tracery's iLvl.

    Quote Originally Posted by danquanngaytho View Post
    4. If we need to upgrade our LIs every 15 levels or so, what is the difference between this system and the action of replacing LIs every 10 level like we did before the imbuement system was introduced? For instance, we often replace our LIs after level 65, 75, 85, and 95. With the current LI pre-imbuement, we only need to craft or find a new LI and use them after 10 levels. Additionally, for some players, they may not need to replace their LIs until they reach level 100. However, with the LI revamp, the new system will force players to replace and upgrade 10 traceries at least for each LI per 15 levels.
    First of all, you don't need to upgrade your LIs every fifteen levels. You can reforge them every five levels, but you don't have to do so. As you're levelling, reforging your LI will give you the biggest bump in terms of your ability to continue levelling easily. Reforging we think is notably simpler than having to remake an LI every ten levels, especially since it's optional. You'll probably want to do it semi-regularly anyway - I know I'll try and reforge every 5 levels if I can - but that's more of me being a completionist than it being strictly required.

    Second, as I said above, traceries don't stop working once you out-level their range, they only stop working when you out-level their subsequent range. So most of the time, you'll have at least 15 levels of levelling - we have two 5 level ranges - to do before your tracery stops providing any benefit. Since you'll have the chance to get new ones in the new range, we think that it'll be rare that a player will be forced to use all 15+ of those levels. Folks can obviously choose to, and we'll keep an eye on how distribution goes and make improvements if we're seeing that not happen. Of course, if you have a tracery you really like and want to use it for all 15+ levels until it gets phased, and you happen to not get a better version of it, we're not gonna stop you from doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by danquanngaytho View Post
    5. How does the conversion from the current LI to new LI work? Will the NPC give the new LI ingredients to you based on the current state of your LIs or characters' levels? To illustrate, if I have a lv 115 toon with maxed out LIs, will that NPC give me enough ingredients to max out my new LI for level 130 or just until level 116? At least please give us a hint what your plan is. Right now, many players wonder if they should max out the LIs for their characters before these toons reach level cap or not.
    We'll have a more detailed explainer, but essentially, you'll be able to open your LI panel, select an LI, and then click a "Convert" button. That will then give you some amount of Ancient Script, Cracked Traceries, and Shattered Traceries to make a new LI that is as powerful or more than the LI you got converted. Our goal is that converting your LI is always the right choice.

    Hope that helps! I know there were other questions in this thread, but didn't have a ton of time to respond. Will attempt to poke my head in more.

  4. #54
    New LI leveling up through questing is currently unclear. The intro quest to obtain an LI weapon did reward a staff for my LM with a LM tracery level rare, easily done with level 50 crafting gear and jewels and that's good. Chapter 10 rewarded a Heraldry tracery lowest level to apply to weapon. Progressing through several quest in Moria and leveling up from lvl 50 to lvl 53 I’m concerned that with this latest release there is still no indication on how a landscape player will level up their LI. With the old system as you progressed through landscape quest you would gain LI xp, runes, 3rd age weapons etc. that could be used to level up your weapon as you quested. You don’t need the best weapon to level up your character and quest the different areas, but you do need to be able to upgrade weapons somewhat. Hopefully Ancient Script scrolls will drop as rewards from landscape quests. If the new system gates everything behind instances that would not be a good option for leveling up characters as grouping for lower-level instances is nonexistent.The Barter in Rivendell makes me wish there was a quick travel to Rivendell like the mission stable horses. The location is on the second floor of Homely house across from scholar guild and available once you complete V2B1Ch13- Seeker of deep places. The layout is straight forward, and things are easy to find so that’s a plus.I applied the lowest level enhancement runes to the lowest level traceries that are available with just Ancient Script Scrolls assuming these will be available with landscape questing and was able to progress fine through level 50 through 52 areas without difficulty. I have not yet reached a reforge point so not sure how that looks but so far it appears leveling up will work with the lowest level traceries and enhancement runes. That is a plus.Still no exact information on conversion of existing items and that is worrisome. Losing all your enhancement runes when you out level your traceries and have to upgrade is also a concern unless the A.S. scrolls are plentiful but overall, I think the new system is workable.
    Main Godhroran (Hunter) - Formerly Windfola moved to Crickhollow- Thorns of Telperion.

  5. #55

    Quick Bug report

    Hi there,

    Just a quick bug I've noticed on the new LI's.

    If you try to replace a lower tier tracery (eg slot a legendary type tracery instead of an uncommon type tracery), the LI won't allow you to do so as they are still considered to be 2 identical traceries. The only viable option to replace the tracery is to unslot it with Mithril coins. Not much of an issue in beta but a huge issue if it was in live as the only way to 'upgrade' a tracery would be to spend Mithril or re-roll an LI.

    Thank you muchly!

    -The Doctor
    The Doctor of Arkenstone
    Commander General of Audacity Kinship- discord.gg/QXnpg2gkKJ
    Master of -Inquisition- Kinship
    Avid Bullroarer Tester: discord.gg/72DaJhSHXM

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by SingularityNow View Post
    Vastin is a lover of math. But the lore, artistry and feel of the game are things that escape him. That's not to say he hasn't done some things right. Nor is it to say Orion was infallible, he was roasted more than a few times over champ and mini changes iirc.
    Vastin designed the Library of Steel instance in Moria. 'Nuff said.

    Orion was not a detail guy. Through carelessness, he screwed up the armor rating tables and left Wardens completely gimped for an entire expansion.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

    < No Dorfs >
    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    They will no longer provide benefits to you.



    Yes, you'll still be able to equip LIs if they have traceries that are below your level. Importantly, the maximum level is not just within the range of the tracery itself - each tracery range is still usable in the subsequent range, you just can't improve them into that level range, so you'll want to replace them with better ones.



    If you use an Enhancement Rune, it's used, so you won't get it back. However, the iLvl increase will be baked on the slot, so if you unslot it or replace it with another tracery in the same range, the iLvl increases you've achieved with Enhancement Runes will remain. You can also - once you're able to - slot in a higher iLvl tracery, it'll just increase to that tracery's iLvl.



    First of all, you don't need to upgrade your LIs every fifteen levels. You can reforge them every five levels, but you don't have to do so. As you're levelling, reforging your LI will give you the biggest bump in terms of your ability to continue levelling easily. Reforging we think is notably simpler than having to remake an LI every ten levels, especially since it's optional. You'll probably want to do it semi-regularly anyway - I know I'll try and reforge every 5 levels if I can - but that's more of me being a completionist than it being strictly required.

    Second, as I said above, traceries don't stop working once you out-level their range, they only stop working when you out-level their subsequent range. So most of the time, you'll have at least 15 levels of levelling - we have two 5 level ranges - to do before your tracery stops providing any benefit. Since you'll have the chance to get new ones in the new range, we think that it'll be rare that a player will be forced to use all 15+ of those levels. Folks can obviously choose to, and we'll keep an eye on how distribution goes and make improvements if we're seeing that not happen. Of course, if you have a tracery you really like and want to use it for all 15+ levels until it gets phased, and you happen to not get a better version of it, we're not gonna stop you from doing so.



    We'll have a more detailed explainer, but essentially, you'll be able to open your LI panel, select an LI, and then click a "Convert" button. That will then give you some amount of Ancient Script, Cracked Traceries, and Shattered Traceries to make a new LI that is as powerful or more than the LI you got converted. Our goal is that converting your LI is always the right choice.

    Hope that helps! I know there were other questions in this thread, but didn't have a ton of time to respond. Will attempt to poke my head in more.
    as someone who is NOT playing beta (for IRL reasons), but hoping for a less grindy, more convenient LI system, let me get this straight:

    1) i have to convert my LI... does this mean that an LI will automatically replace it, and i only have to upgrade it by slotting everything? or does it mean i destroy the weapon and have to start completely from scratch: create a new weapon AND all the upgrades?

    2) does the reforge destroy any slotted items (like masteries, etc)?

    3) the slotted stuff expires, then becomes useless.

    the above makes me think that i'm starting all over every reforge. the thing i LIKED about the "old" LI's was that the legacies in the imbued LI never needed to be replaced (my only 2 complaints, a: the DPS legacy should automatically go up whent he character's level goes up, and b: scrolls of empowerment should have dropped like water from landscape mobs), but now, every so many levels, they become useless. meaning i go from having + buff to zero buff, just by levelling up. that means that while the DPS "legacy" goes up, the DPS doesn't, because all the buffs i had are lost... this is BAD, REALLY BAD. i should be allowed to slot ANY mastery regardless of level if i have it, and it NOT be destroyed in a reforge, and then replace it later on when a better one drops for me in open world. if i'm required to group up for instanced content just to slot stuff in my LI, i'll be more than angry. i'm already upset that you're (SSG) MAYBE throwing away everything i bought with points. (all the SoEs to level my legacies) now you're telling me that i'll have to craft everything all over again from scratch. and since my toons aren't max, anything i CAN craft with what you give me will be totally useless with the expansion-level-cap-rise.

    it really seems LESS convenient to have to earn new stuff to slot all the time. the essence armour made me pretty much quit because i could never keep up anymore as a casual. my problem was that you gave us empty armour. armour with no stats until i slotted everything, but the essences were harder to get than raid armour. now you're telling me the new LI system is going to be the same? (except i can reforge the LI to boost the base damage)

    as you can see, i'm still very fearful....

    my first suggestion is simply, get rid of the max level for masteries.
    my second suggestion, is to autofill the empty slots on crafter armour (with default essences) so that the armour isn't total trash, wasting away in inventory or bank, until i finally earn the essences
    my third suggestion, is to convert all the purple, teal, and gold armour / jewelry into legendary, so i can reforge it every 5 levels to be able to still do stuff, since my only upgrades are ###### yellow and purple gear that is worse than teal gear from 8 levels ago
    Forgotten_Legend, The Baconnaire
    Malinon - 105 Champion | Avornial - 120 Champion | JAZRAIEL - 120 HUNTER | Taeran - 120 RuneKeeper
    Founder - Lifetimer

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    it really seems LESS convenient to have to earn new stuff to slot all the time.
    This is my fear as well. I'm ok with replacing certain things, like relics in the current system make sense, but if we had to replace our legacies every few levels that just sounds like a major pain. I have to admit I don't quit understand Raninia's explanation, the problem is probably on my end, but at least for me I am pretty confused around how this new system is going to work and it seems to me like there will be more of a grind not less.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    Second, as I said above, traceries don't stop working once you out-level their range, they only stop working when you out-level their subsequent range. So most of the time, you'll have at least 15 levels of levelling - we have two 5 level ranges - to do before your tracery stops providing any benefit. Since you'll have the chance to get new ones in the new range, we think that it'll be rare that a player will be forced to use all 15+ of those levels. Folks can obviously choose to, and we'll keep an eye on how distribution goes and make improvements if we're seeing that not happen. Of course, if you have a tracery you really like and want to use it for all 15+ levels until it gets phased, and you happen to not get a better version of it, we're not gonna stop you from doing so.
    If I'm understanding this correctly, you level your tracery up through an expansion, once the level cap is increased and the next expansion starts, your traceries become effectively useless the second you level and you have to start from scratch all over again?

    Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, this sounds worse than what we have now though.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    as someone who is NOT playing beta (for IRL reasons), but hoping for a less grindy, more convenient LI system, let me get this straight:

    1) i have to convert my LI... does this mean that an LI will automatically replace it, and i only have to upgrade it by slotting everything? or does it mean i destroy the weapon and have to start completely from scratch: create a new weapon AND all the upgrades?
    The new system doesn't use the old panel, so nothing will "automatically replace" your old LI. You'll need to then select the LI's you wish and then slot them as you see fit with the currency we give you on conversion.

    QUOTE=Forgotten_Legend;8092775]2) does the reforge destroy any slotted items (like masteries, etc)?[/QUOTE]

    No, the only thing that reforge does is increase the base stats of your LI and sometimes unlock a new slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    3) the slotted stuff expires, then becomes useless.

    the above makes me think that i'm starting all over every reforge. the thing i LIKED about the "old" LI's was that the legacies in the imbued LI never needed to be replaced (my only 2 complaints, a: the DPS legacy should automatically go up whent he character's level goes up, and b: scrolls of empowerment should have dropped like water from landscape mobs), but now, every so many levels, they become useless. meaning i go from having + buff to zero buff, just by levelling up. that means that while the DPS "legacy" goes up, the DPS doesn't, because all the buffs i had are lost... this is BAD, REALLY BAD. i should be allowed to slot ANY mastery regardless of level if i have it, and it NOT be destroyed in a reforge, and then replace it later on when a better one drops for me in open world. if i'm required to group up for instanced content just to slot stuff in my LI, i'll be more than angry. i'm already upset that you're (SSG) MAYBE throwing away everything i bought with points. (all the SoEs to level my legacies) now you're telling me that i'll have to craft everything all over again from scratch. and since my toons aren't max, anything i CAN craft with what you give me will be totally useless with the expansion-level-cap-rise.
    Yes, if you choose to not slot in a new tracery and wait 15+ levels, it will eventually stop working. But, you can just slot in something else, and using one from your current level range will give you a statistically better item than one from the previous. You won't need to replace your new LIs, as they're shells that progressively get stronger as you level - once you hit cap, you reforge it, and then the stats are the best they can be until we extend or introduce a new range in the future. Reforging will have a lot more value to you than replacing traceries as you're levelling, because the biggest chunk of your levelling stats will come directly from the weapon. The worst case scenario you're talking about - where one level you have a buff, and the next level you don't - is going to be one where you're not slotting in traceries that you're getting, not one where you don't have anything to replace them with.

    You won't need to min/max your traceries nearly as much as you currently need to min/max legacies and other pieces of the current LIs or ILIs, because the traceries aren't where you're getting the vast majority of your DPS from. I'm not sure where you got the idea that reforging would destroy your traceries - it won't. The only way you can "destroy" a tracery in your LI is by overwriting it with a new one. Most players will receive a bunch of traceries by engaging with on-level content, which is mostly gonna just be questing for folks that don't want to run instances as they level.

    And as I stated to the player I was responding to, the purpose of conversion is specifically so that we're not "throwing away everything" that players have on their LIs currently, and no, it doesn't become useless with an expansion level rise, because your lvl 130 traceries will continue to work until we the next time we increase the level cap after Gundabad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotten_Legend View Post
    it really seems LESS convenient to have to earn new stuff to slot all the time. the essence armour made me pretty much quit because i could never keep up anymore as a casual. my problem was that you gave us empty armour. armour with no stats until i slotted everything, but the essences were harder to get than raid armour. now you're telling me the new LI system is going to be the same? (except i can reforge the LI to boost the base damage)
    To reiterate: as a casual player, you should be able to level through landscape without significant issues just by reforging your weapon, slotting in traceries along the way, and using the enhancement runes you get. I encourage you to take a look at Bullroarer and try out the experience for yourself, or short of that, look at what other folks have said on the forums, other player communities, or from content creators.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    If I'm understanding this correctly, you level your tracery up through an expansion, once the level cap is increased and the next expansion starts, your traceries become effectively useless the second you level and you have to start from scratch all over again?

    Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, this sounds worse than what we have now though.
    Specifically this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    you level your tracery up through an expansion, once the level cap is increased and the next expansion starts
    Once that next expansion starts, your tracery continues to function exactly as it did beforehand. Once you get to the next level, it will still continue to work. But when the next level cap increase happens after that, the tracery that you got from two level ranges ago stops working.

    For example:
    I get a tracery in Minas Morgul. I cap out that tracery with enhancement runes.
    Then Gundabad comes out. My tracery still works. I can use that tracery all throughout Gundabad. I'll probably get new ones that I can replace my Minas Morgul tracery with, but let's say I decide not to, and keep using my Minas Morgul ones all the time. They work fine.
    Then, we release the next expansion at some point in the future, that has a new level cap. At that point, once I level into the new expansion, my tracery from Minas Morgul stops working. But I have a bunch of Gundabad traceries that I can replace it with - that I could've used at any time during Gundabad - and they'll work just fine in that future expansion as well.

    Hopefully that's a bit clearer
    Last edited by Raninia; Sep 24 2021 at 03:57 PM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    Yes, if you choose to not slot in a new tracery and wait 15+ levels, it will eventually stop working. But, you can just slot in something else, and using one from your current level range will give you a statistically better item than one from the previous.
    That doesn't seem to be entirely the case. Right now the only thing that scales off of level in regards to traceries are the secondary stats. The primary effect of each tracery only scales off of rarity. It's the primary effects that actually matter here, we don't really care for the raw stats since they don't actually contribute much in comparison.

    As an example, let's say we have a level 95 Beorning with the following traceries:

    • Bear Form Damage - Legendary (Grants 38.5% bonus bear form damage and 289 critical rating)
    • Man Form Damage - Legendary (Grants 38.5% bonus man form damage and 275 physical mastery)
    • Bee Swarm Damage - Legendary (Grants 38.5% bonus bee swarm damage and 340 finesse)


    Now let's say I level up to 120 via valar, all of those traceries I had active have now been disabled and I need to grab new ones to replace them. As I've just hit 96 I'm probably not doing any group content, probably not doing any challenging content at all so I'm likely to only be getting the lowest tier of traceries. I'm fortunately able to quickly pick up the same traceries I had but this time as 120 "common" variants. Now I have the following:

    • Bear Form Damage - Common (Grants 28% bonus bear form damage and 12582 critical rating)
    • Man Form Damage - Common (Grants 28% bonus man form damage and 12247 physical mastery)
    • Bee Swarm Damage - Common (Grants 28% bonus bee swarm damage and 30240 outgoing healing)


    Now between these level ranges I've technically gained the following stats:

    • 12293 Critical Rating
    • 11972 Physical Mastery
    • 302420 Outgoing Healing Rating



    but lost the following percentage damage boosts:

    • 10.5% Bear Form Damage
    • 10.5% Man Form Damage
    • 10.5% Bee Swarm Damage


    So going from level 95 traceries to 120 traceries has been a net DPS loss. At the end of the day, those % damage boosts are notably superior to the stat difference. And I used the level 50 traceries vs the 120 ones there which is the best case scenario for the stat boosts outweighing the primary effects.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    That doesn't seem to be entirely the case. Right now the only thing that scales off of level in regards to traceries are the secondary stats. The primary effect of each tracery only scales off of rarity. It's the primary effects that actually matter here, we don't really care for the raw stats since they don't actually contribute much in comparison.

    As an example, let's say we have a level 95 Beorning with the following traceries:

    • Bear Form Damage - Legendary (Grants 38.5% bonus bear form damage and 289 critical rating)
    • Man Form Damage - Legendary (Grants 38.5% bonus man form damage and 275 physical mastery)
    • Bee Swarm Damage - Legendary (Grants 38.5% bonus bee swarm damage and 340 finesse)


    Now let's say I level up to 120 via valar, all of those traceries I had active have now been disabled and I need to grab new ones to replace them. As I've just hit 96 I'm probably not doing any group content, probably not doing any challenging content at all so I'm likely to only be getting the lowest tier of traceries. I'm fortunately able to quickly pick up the same traceries I had but this time as 120 "common" variants. Now I have the following:

    • Bear Form Damage - Common (Grants 28% bonus bear form damage and 12582 critical rating)
    • Man Form Damage - Common (Grants 28% bonus man form damage and 12247 physical mastery)
    • Bee Swarm Damage - Common (Grants 28% bonus bee swarm damage and 30240 outgoing healing)


    Now between these level ranges I've technically gained the following stats:

    • 12293 Critical Rating
    • 11972 Physical Mastery
    • 302420 Outgoing Healing Rating



    but lost the following percentage damage boosts:

    • 10.5% Bear Form Damage
    • 10.5% Man Form Damage
    • 10.5% Bee Swarm Damage


    So going from level 95 traceries to 120 traceries has been a net DPS loss. At the end of the day, those % damage boosts are notably superior to the stat difference. And I used the level 50 traceries vs the 120 ones there which is the best case scenario for the stat boosts outweighing the primary effects.
    You're right, I wasn't accounting for someone using legendary traceries vs. uncommon rarity traceries, I was assuming like-for-like.

  14. #64
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    Still waiting for some kind of response or acknowledgement of the brawler feedback that has been posted..

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    Specifically this part:



    Once that next expansion starts, your tracery continues to function exactly as it did beforehand. Once you get to the next level, it will still continue to work. But when the next level cap increase happens after that, the tracery that you got from two level ranges ago starts working.

    For example:
    I get a tracery in Minas Morgul. I cap out that tracery with enhancement runes.
    Then Gundabad comes out. My tracery still works. I can use that tracery all throughout Gundabad. I'll probably get new ones that I can replace my Minas Morgul tracery with, but let's say I decide not to, and keep using my Minas Morgul ones all the time. They work fine.
    Then, we release the next expansion at some point in the future, that has a new level cap. At that point, once I level into the new expansion, my tracery from Minas Morgul stops working. But I have a bunch of Gundabad traceries that I can replace it with - that I could've used at any time during Gundabad - and they'll work just fine in that future expansion as well.

    Hopefully that's a bit clearer
    Thank you! This makes way more sense. OK, not nearly as bad as I thought, since you aren't really losing anything at each new expansion, the transition period will make for more logical progression.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    You're right, I wasn't accounting for someone using legendary traceries vs. uncommon rarity traceries, I was assuming like-for-like.
    This actually adds a lot of complexity to the system. Determining when to upgrade your traceries will be become a fairly complex math exercise if you have have a well geared end game character going into a new expansion. Also, it seems to me that your old traceries may last well into the next level cap because % based increases are so vastly superior to ratings based. It seems to me you will have to give out teal/gold early in the level cap cycle, just to make them interesting to well geared toons from the prior level cap. i.e. if you only give out green/purple traceries in the first set of instances (like the green/purple essences in MM) they will be clearly inferior to what we already have.

    It seems to me making those percentage based increases part of the end game grind is going to be an itemization issue and/or a noob trap.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Still waiting for some kind of response or acknowledgement of the brawler feedback that has been posted..
    Brawler feedback - including yours - has been passed along to the folks working on it. We'll continue doing so as we see it, we just don't usually call it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustALittlePeril View Post
    This actually adds a lot of complexity to the system. Determining when to upgrade your traceries will be become a fairly complex math exercise if you have have a well geared end game character going into a new expansion. Also, it seems to me that your old traceries may last well into the next level cap because % based increases are so vastly superior to ratings based. It seems to me you will have to give out teal/gold early in the level cap cycle, just to make them interesting to well geared toons from the prior level cap. i.e. if you only give out green/purple traceries in the first set of instances (like the green/purple essences in MM) they will be clearly inferior to what we already have.

    It seems to me making those percentage based increases part of the end game grind is going to be an itemization issue and/or a noob trap.
    That's certainly a possibility, we're gonna have to see how it plays out. I suspect that it won't be as much of an issue for players as they go through the whole level cap cycle, since they'll eventually be getting pieces that are better than what they have, but it may take them a while to get to that point. That's also where the tracery barter will help.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    Brawler feedback - including yours - has been passed along to the folks working on it. We'll continue doing so as we see it, we just don't usually call it out.



    That's certainly a possibility, we're gonna have to see how it plays out. I suspect that it won't be as much of an issue for players as they go through the whole level cap cycle, since they'll eventually be getting pieces that are better than what they have, but it may take them a while to get to that point. That's also where the tracery barter will help.
    If we can barter for gold traceries at the beginning, there will be a giant grind on day 1 for the traceries, then they will be garbage after that. Unless of course, new/better ones are added, which could make the issue worse at the next level cap.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    Brawler feedback - including yours - has been passed along to the folks working on it. We'll continue doing so as we see it, we just don't usually call it out.

    Acknowledgment is one step, engagement is the next. It is good to hear that at least we are not just posting in vain (this is important to understand, even a simple message just as you have done, to say the feedback has been read, acknowledged and passed along is paramount for good communication).

    That being said, engagement from the specific developer(s) working on the class would be even better; are we along the right lines with our feedback? Is what we have been posting relevant to the overall design goals for the class? Where do you see this classes position within the game and the content? I do not wish to see the mistakes of Beorning being repeated, in which the class had no presence in PvE content for almost 3 years.

    What we’ve seen so far of the brawler is intriguing, in my view, but it has a long way to go - back and forth interactions between the devs and the community is essential in these types of situations.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    Brawler feedback - including yours - has been passed along to the folks working on it. We'll continue doing so as we see it, we just don't usually call it out.



    That's certainly a possibility, we're gonna have to see how it plays out. I suspect that it won't be as much of an issue for players as they go through the whole level cap cycle, since they'll eventually be getting pieces that are better than what they have, but it may take them a while to get to that point. That's also where the tracery barter will help.
    What I’m most concerned about is that 130 level Minas Morgul Gold Mastery traceries will be better than any Mastery tracery available in Gundabad other than Gold. So we’ll be back to the problem where people are farming OLD high-tier raid content in order to secure the best traceries, rather than spending time on the new Gundabad content.

    Idk about the rest of the people here, but I’m tired of doing Throne T2C as a main source of LI supplies. I don’t want to be running old raid content to acquire best in slot traceries. I guess this won’t be a problem if the Barter system doesn’t gate gold traceries for Gundabad behind some tier 5 deed.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fresuvi View Post
    What I’m most concerned about is that 130 level Minas Morgul Gold Mastery traceries will be better than any Mastery tracery available in Gundabad other than Gold. So we’ll be back to the problem where people are farming OLD high-tier raid content in order to secure the best traceries, rather than spending time on the new Gundabad content.

    Idk about the rest of the people here, but I’m tired of doing Throne T2C as a main source of LI supplies. I don’t want to be running old raid content to acquire best in slot traceries. I guess this won’t be a problem if the Barter system doesn’t gate gold traceries for Gundabad behind some tier 5 deed.
    I mean it has kind of already been speculated that the best traceries will drop randomly from high-tier raid content [from both the palantir leak and the Q&A with Vastin], whether this will remain the 'only' source of acquiring them, and whether or not there will be some kind of deed gating, is of course, less clear.

  22. #72
    This morning I logged in to BR and found the Ancient Script cost of everything went up another 50% (to 450 on purple and 900 on teal). This means to get a single LI to purple is 5000+ Ancient Scripts (11-12 x 450 AS(s)). Double that for teal assuming you can even get them under T3. Right now running a MM daily T1 you get a single purple from the last boss chest that disenchants for 40 AS(s). So that is 130+ instance runs per LI to PURPLE. Not at all sure what to run for lower level ranges. Unless there are huge sources yet unknown this is a far worse grind than before and while you keep your "base" LI your traceries have to be re-bought what 4-6 times from 50-130+. And the % bonuses are the same each replacement.

    The hints from the 131-150 traceries is that we will see a 2.3x higher stat bloat with the next expansion as the mastery given by the base traceries are about that much higher than the 121-130 traceries. So, anyone for stat cap of 1.5million?

    I just logged out, deleted BR, and went for a walk. I will wait until release to find out how screwed (or not) I am.

    Hope I got all this wrong due to my mistakes.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    This morning I logged in to BR and found the Ancient Script cost of everything went up another 50% (to 450 on purple and 900 on teal). This means to get a single LI to purple is 5000+ Ancient Scripts (11-12 x 450 AS(s)). Double that for teal assuming you can even get them under T3. Right now running a MM daily T1 you get a single purple from the last boss chest that disenchants for 40 AS(s). So that is 130+ instance runs per LI to PURPLE. Not at all sure what to run for lower level ranges. Unless there are huge sources yet unknown this is a far worse grind than before and while you keep your "base" LI your traceries have to be re-bought what 4-6 times from 50-130+. And the % bonuses are the same each replacement.

    The hints from the 131-150 traceries is that we will see a 2.3x higher stat bloat with the next expansion as the mastery given by the base traceries are about that much higher than the 121-130 traceries. So, anyone for stat cap of 1.5million?

    I just logged out, deleted BR, and went for a walk. I will wait until release to find out how screwed (or not) I am.

    Hope I got all this wrong due to my mistakes.
    Currently, progressions in the new level ranges are still at a default +20/+100%, while current expansions are in 'end-level mode'.



    The U23 and U25 segments need to be compressed down to standard +10/+50% and +20/100% to:
    1) fight high stat numbers
    2) guarantee smoother leveling for starters

    The U31 segment needs to set to 'end-level mode' with high start rise to:
    1) force people to switch to new gear, because they have better stats, despite being of lower quality.
    2) make the new area challenging.

    I think having different percentages on traceries is a bad idea, because it's not offset with enough stat points on that item. Let's say a jewelry set gives a percentage bonus. That bonus is accompanied by a lot of stat points in those set items. A single tracery has only a tiny amount of stat points.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    For example:
    I get a tracery in Minas Morgul. I cap out that tracery with enhancement runes.
    Then Gundabad comes out. My tracery still works. I can use that tracery all throughout Gundabad. I'll probably get new ones that I can replace my Minas Morgul tracery with, but let's say I decide not to, and keep using my Minas Morgul ones all the time. They work fine.
    Then, we release the next expansion at some point in the future, that has a new level cap. At that point, once I level into the new expansion, my tracery from Minas Morgul stops working. But I have a bunch of Gundabad traceries that I can replace it with - that I could've used at any time during Gundabad - and they'll work just fine in that future expansion as well.
    Thanks for the summary.
    << Co-founder of The Firebrands of Caruja on Landroval >>
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  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia View Post
    Once that next expansion starts, your tracery continues to function exactly as it did beforehand. Once you get to the next level, it will still continue to work. But when the next level cap increase happens after that, the tracery that you got from two level ranges ago stops working.

    For example:
    I get a tracery in Minas Morgul. I cap out that tracery with enhancement runes.
    Then Gundabad comes out. My tracery still works. I can use that tracery all throughout Gundabad. I'll probably get new ones that I can replace my Minas Morgul tracery with, but let's say I decide not to, and keep using my Minas Morgul ones all the time. They work fine.
    Then, we release the next expansion at some point in the future, that has a new level cap. At that point, once I level into the new expansion, my tracery from Minas Morgul stops working. But I have a bunch of Gundabad traceries that I can replace it with - that I could've used at any time during Gundabad - and they'll work just fine in that future expansion as well.

    Hopefully that's a bit clearer
    If the primary goal is to simplify the system for new people coming in, I think you're setting yourself up to fail on that front. Level-locked traceries and enhancement runes with multiple tiers in each window is going to cause a lot of undue grief the same way level 50-95 crystals and SoE's currently do. GM's will be doing a lot of currency refunding because people didn't realize they were bartering for stuff they couldn't actually use or was less useful than an alternative. Or they won't refund and call it user error and then you'll have a bunch of confused and pissed off customers to deal with.

    If the secondary goal is to satisfy existing players, I can tell you as a player who has been around since 2008 and participated in Bullroarer that I am dreading this update. With a few exceptions, my characters have been using their same ILI's since the system was released 6 years ago, and even though the work getting them maxed out was considerable, it helped that it happened in steps (3-4 new legacy tiers at a time) and I knew the only thing I needed was a few crystals and SoE's, and to swap for better relics and titles as they came along.

    Now it's like the whole weapon is full of relic slots that you stack a massive amount of SoE's on, but only certain SoE's at certain thresholds, and eventually everything is going to expire and you get to restack new SoE's on new relics. It really strips away everything inherently unique and consistent about our LI's and turns it into another system we'll re-grind with every level increase, which frankly I don't know if I have to energy to do that for one character's weapons, let alone all 15.

    I mean, the premise of the Legendary Item system is a weapon that grows with you as you use it. Now the only thing that will grow is the dps when you reforge it. Everything else is accessories you have to find or buy. I understand the need to monetize the game, but this is adding toll booths to a road that's already been built when we were promised a light rail a half-decade ago.

    I know you're new and I really do appreciate the time and effort you've made to engage with the playerbase on multiple fronts, but it simply isn't enough to know someone's listening if there's no change as a result, and it has been excruciating to watch this team repeat its mistakes year after year as we scream into the void.

 

 
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