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  1. #76
    I don't know why people can't understand that their business model doesn't include improving content that you've already paid for.

    They couldn't fix the rubber-banding and hitching even when mounted combat was the RoR selling point. Today's under-provisioned servers freeze, hitch and rubber-band even when not on a warsteed.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

    < No Dorfs >
    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    I don't know why people can't understand that their business model doesn't include improving content that you've already paid for.

    They couldn't fix the rubber-banding and hitching even when mounted combat was the RoR selling point. Today's under-provisioned servers freeze, hitch and rubber-band even when not on a warsteed.
    What they couldn't do and what they weren't allowed to do are two different things. However, with this push toward making the game more appealing to a broader audience to capitalize on the buzz created by the upcoming TV series, now might be a good time to throw some polish on such systems as needs it.

    Also, they have improved content in the past, even though it wasn't current content. So it's not an expectation without precedent.

    I understand the cynicism. And it's not completely unwarranted. But I also was there for the good as well as the bad and think this team has more than earned the benefit of the doubt.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    And how do they fix the speed, the ride off mobs, the unwanted pulling of mobs?
    A. "Fix Speed" is a bit too generic of an issue to specify what's actually wrong. Assuming you mean how the game doesn't really handly the faster movement speed- use 64-bit (?) as it's at least smooth enough to steer and be playable for the updated memory cap.

    B. AI Pathing is an issue with mobs on their own and frankly it barely scratches the surface on how monster/pet AI is out of date in various aspects- *cough* banner-guard/animal pathing in instances.

    C. Unwanted Pulling of mobs would be made better with the proper damage scaling of Warsteed skills / Bridles. If they're easier to kill, then easier to mow down groups. Beyond that, watch what you're riding into.... I mean, if you ride through a cluster of mobs there's not much SSG can really do to fix that.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    I don't know why people can't understand that their business model doesn't include improving content that you've already paid for.

    They couldn't fix the rubber-banding and hitching even when mounted combat was the RoR selling point. Today's under-provisioned servers freeze, hitch and rubber-band even when not on a warsteed.
    It's the exact same rubber-banding that was in AC2 - loads of tiny imperfections to get hooked on and the server having to work out where you should be rather than where you think you are. Games that took the client's word for it open to exploiting: Early ESO had bots under the landscape farming nodes, WOW porting all over the place and a load of tech developed to stop/limit it.

    I can't be sure it's just blocks that just don't abut but artists are more about how it's going to look than an engineer's testing the limits. Maybe it needs some post processing filling in the gaps. But that's not an algorithm you want to get wrong. Fixing manually on a /bug report gets us nowhere even if we had an easy means to do that. You could have the server report back all those locations where it occurred but that needs someone to care.

    Just my thoughts...

    P.S. Doesn't help that places like Hytbold have stuff we can't yet see to negotiate around.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillard1959 View Post
    There's a reason why only a small number of players use bridles.
    Are you basing that on actual data? There are a lot of completionists in this game, and I can't imagine any self-respecting completionist tooling around sans bridle. The really hardcore ones -- those with a bit of the hoarding impluse, in addition to suffering from completionism -- actually farmed a full set of bridle legacies just in case bridle imbuement became a thing. <looks around, warily>

    Now it seems bridles will be pseudo-imbued ab initio, and those legacies are useless, since, you know, traceries instead of legacies. But that's how things go when you make plans for game changes that may or may not ever be realized...

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by egarthur View Post
    Are you basing that on actual data? There are a lot of completionists in this game, and I can't imagine any self-respecting completionist tooling around sans bridle. The really hardcore ones -- those with a bit of the hoarding impluse, in addition to suffering from completionism -- actually farmed a full set of bridle legacies just in case bridle imbuement became a thing. <looks around, warily>

    Now it seems bridles will be pseudo-imbued ab initio, and those legacies are useless, since, you know, traceries instead of legacies. But that's how things go when you make plans for game changes that may or may not ever be realized...
    Actual data? No. But when Cordovan says only a small part of the playerbase actually utilizes mounted combat, I'm given to take him at his word. After all, he likely has seen the data regarding various statistics for the game.

    Also, they still haven't announced what they're actually doing about bridles. Which is what you'd expect when it comes to a system that isn't actually making them money and largely gets ignored by the playerbase at large. I'm hoping they do something, otherwise it's going to leave a very bad taste in some new players mouths the first time they interact with the system. Personally, if they don't want to actually work on improving Mounted Combat, then I'm in favor of simply making some fixed-stat, non-legendary bridles available through vendors and/or crafting. It wouldn't be great, but it would at least be something.

    Edit: Just to clarify, the inference I was trying to make is that players weren't using bridles is because many of them aren't using Warsteeds at all. No need to invest in a bridle when you don't use the mount you'd put it on.

    Edit the 2nd: Source https://youtu.be/OoBz4Tigyx0?t=527
    Last edited by hillard1959; Sep 28 2021 at 12:33 PM.

  7. #82
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    When Langflood was released, this sort of discussion was made regarding the error in the Warg-Rider programming. The reason why it wasn't caught beforehand was because the enemy type was added to the landscape after public beta testing but before the initial release. Instead of giving them the standard attack sequence, they tied the mounted combat code to it by accident. The results were astounding: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...19#post8004019

    Mirroring this thread, there are still a lot of people who would like mounted combat to come back despite the numerous number of people I know that hate it. Everyone I know still uses their war-steed with the sacrifice ability to do a Scourge Run in Mordor Besieged. But do people still use their bridles? Considering that I stacked critical chance and damage, my captain can practically kill targets instantly. The additional maneuverability with agility helps a lot as well.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdJedi View Post
    When Langflood was released, this sort of discussion was made regarding the error in the Warg-Rider programming. The reason why it wasn't caught beforehand was because the enemy type was added to the landscape after public beta testing but before the initial release. Instead of giving them the standard attack sequence, they tied the mounted combat code to it by accident. The results were astounding: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...19#post8004019

    Mirroring this thread, there are still a lot of people who would like mounted combat to come back despite the numerous number of people I know that hate it. Everyone I know still uses their war-steed with the sacrifice ability to do a Scourge Run in Mordor Besieged. But do people still use their bridles? Considering that I stacked critical chance and damage, my captain can practically kill targets instantly. The additional maneuverability with agility helps a lot as well.
    Honestly, I think we're experiencing a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy. "Well, most of the playerbase doesn't think this thing is fun. So we should do something else and just ignore it."

    I'd love for Mounted Combat to get a revamp and actually be fun. But until SSG have the time to and are willing to, that's not going to happen. And the more it doesn't happen, the more people are going to disengage with the system. And the more people that disengage with the system, the less likely SSG are to actually work on it. Turtles. Turtles all the way down.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by hillard1959 View Post
    Honestly, I think we're experiencing a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy. "Well, most of the playerbase doesn't think this thing is fun. So we should do something else and just ignore it."

    I'd love for Mounted Combat to get a revamp and actually be fun.
    TBF, this is a very tall ask. Not just from SSG, but from any company. Mounted combat is difficult in games in general, but this is especially true for a classic MMO like LOTRO with it's MMO-style combat. I'm not disagreeing with you either. MC is too big a part of the game from Rohan to Gondor for them to just drop it off, but putting many resources on a system that'd be difficult to get to work for a much bigger studio may be hard to justify.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by NonHyperHamster View Post
    TBF, this is a very tall ask. Not just from SSG, but from any company. Mounted combat is difficult in games in general, but this is especially true for a classic MMO like LOTRO with it's MMO-style combat. I'm not disagreeing with you either. MC is too big a part of the game from Rohan to Gondor for them to just drop it off, but putting many resources on a system that'd be difficult to get to work for a much bigger studio may be hard to justify.
    Oh, I understand that. I honestly don't think it would need a complete revamp as such, like we're getting with Legendary Items. And I doubt they'll have time to actually work on it anytime soon. It's work that should have been done ages ago if it was going to be done at all. But a good bit of polish is in order at the minimum. And with them going to have to do some work on bridles at some point "soon", there's no time like the present to at least see what Band-Aids can be applied.

    I'm still of the opinion that improving that experience would probably gain them more money in the long run just off of sales from Warsteed cosmetics. Because there's apparently still enough interest in Mounted Combat for them to include said cosmetics in preorder bonuses and continue selling them on the in-game store.

    Sometimes, when a person says "I can't," they're actually saying "I won't."

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Hallandil View Post
    A. "Fix Speed" is a bit too generic of an issue to specify what's actually wrong. Assuming you mean how the game doesn't really handly the faster movement speed- use 64-bit (?) as it's at least smooth enough to steer and be playable for the updated memory cap.

    B. AI Pathing is an issue with mobs on their own and frankly it barely scratches the surface on how monster/pet AI is out of date in various aspects- *cough* banner-guard/animal pathing in instances.

    C. Unwanted Pulling of mobs would be made better with the proper damage scaling of Warsteed skills / Bridles. If they're easier to kill, then easier to mow down groups. Beyond that, watch what you're riding into.... I mean, if you ride through a cluster of mobs there's not much SSG can really do to fix that.
    I can NOT control the steed so I mostly go in circles to avoid running into something. I don't know what skills to use either, to me they are all in chinese. Warsteed for me is playing another game, same with epic battles and to some extend session play.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    I can NOT control the steed so I mostly go in circles to avoid running into something. I don't know what skills to use either, to me they are all in chinese. Warsteed for me is playing another game, same with epic battles and to some extend session play.
    It is a different system for sure. What worked for me in leveling four classes through Rohan in last couple of months:

    1. max agility ASAP; fill out your other skills as you get those riding points
    2. use a bridle and reforge when available
    3. figure out which four skills do the most damage for your class and spam those off cooldown while riding around in circles

    4. bonus if you are over-leveled and don't aggro adds as you ride around.

    1-3 worked pretty well and with 4 it was easy.

    Getting back to the topic of mounted combat in general, I agree that a bit of polish and updating could make mounted combat slightly less frustrating and maybe even fun. Relative to other needs - LI fix, crafting, itemization, class balance work - I don't think it is the top priority for a small team.
    Last edited by Chizbo; Sep 28 2021 at 04:24 PM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    Would have been cheaper to do an in-game tutorial that analysed your choices over the years and reported where you had gone wrong. Like a sat nav pointing out your missed turns.

    Seems a lot of work to just fix it for those who suck at ILIs because of their bad choices and sanctioned miss direction.....

    Well, to be fair the imbued system did have some issues that needed to be addressed, even if one understood it very well (e.g. the rather large number of empowerment scrolls required to max out legacies). And while no doubt some made poor choices due to lack of understanding, some choices that made sense when they were made were caused to become poor ones after the fact due to class changes (and of course there was never any compensation offered in terms of imbued legacy replacement scrolls.)

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillard1959 View Post
    Actual data? No. But when Cordovan says only a small part of the playerbase actually utilizes mounted combat, I'm given to take him at his word. After all, he likely has seen the data regarding various statistics for the game.

    Also, they still haven't announced what they're actually doing about bridles. Which is what you'd expect when it comes to a system that isn't actually making them money and largely gets ignored by the playerbase at large. I'm hoping they do something, otherwise it's going to leave a very bad taste in some new players mouths the first time they interact with the system. Personally, if they don't want to actually work on improving Mounted Combat, then I'm in favor of simply making some fixed-stat, non-legendary bridles available through vendors and/or crafting. It wouldn't be great, but it would at least be something.

    Edit: Just to clarify, the inference I was trying to make is that players weren't using bridles is because many of them aren't using Warsteeds at all. No need to invest in a bridle when you don't use the mount you'd put it on.

    Edit the 2nd: Source https://youtu.be/OoBz4Tigyx0?t=527
    Um, you are aware that war-steeds are faster than normal mounts, right? So there's a reason to use war-steeds that has nothing to do with mounted combat, even in areas where mounted combat isn't allowed. And while most war-steed legacies are focused on mounted combat, many of them enhance maneuverability. So, to say that most players don't have bridles because mounted combat is unpopular, is a very bold one, and frankly, I don't think it's backed by evidence. You made the assertion; let's see the proof.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by egarthur View Post
    Um, you are aware that war-steeds are faster than normal mounts, right? So there's a reason to use war-steeds that has nothing to do with mounted combat, even in areas where mounted combat isn't allowed. And while most war-steed legacies are focused on mounted combat, many of them enhance maneuverability. So, to say that most players don't have bridles because mounted combat is unpopular, is a very bold one, and frankly, I don't think it's backed by evidence. You made the assertion; let's see the proof.
    I can say with almost some certainty that every member of my kinship, who uses a warsteed, for no other reason than the fact that it is faster than a normal horse, has not looked at their bridle since level 85 (perhaps 95/100 if we want to be generous), myself included. The bridle offers extremely little in the way of stats and or bonuses to maneuverability as you suggest (in fact I've never had a maneuverability issue with my warsteed, other than when lag is involved), so to suggest this as a basis that everyone who uses a warsteed, outside of specific mounted combat related activities has or uses a bridle is quite inaccurate from my perspective.

  16. #91
    I wish they'd put some work into cleaning up and modernising Mounted Combat but whether or not that happens I will still be using my War-steed in most situations for two reasons, the increased speed and most importantly the increased 'awareness' range. On a War-steed I can keyboard select objects and entities much farther away than normal and to me this is a huge benefit when exploring and adventuring.
    << Co-founder of The Firebrands of Caruja on Landroval >>
    Ceolford of Dale, Dorolin, Tordag, Garberend Bellheather, Colfinn Belegorn, Garmo Butterbuckles, Calensarn Nimlos, Langtiriel, Bergteir


  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by egarthur View Post
    Um, you are aware that war-steeds are faster than normal mounts, right? So there's a reason to use war-steeds that has nothing to do with mounted combat, even in areas where mounted combat isn't allowed. And while most war-steed legacies are focused on mounted combat, many of them enhance maneuverability. So, to say that most players don't have bridles because mounted combat is unpopular, is a very bold one, and frankly, I don't think it's backed by evidence. You made the assertion; let's see the proof.
    Nobody is claiming they don't have bridles. My claim is that most people don't use their warsteeds for Mounted Combat. As for proof, you'll either need to petition SSG for those stats or poll the playerbase itself. To suggest that your own assertion is anymore grounded in proof is laughable at best. Yes, I'm quite aware that some folks use their warsteeds for the extra speed. That does not change the flaws that are apparent with the system.

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by auximenes View Post
    I wish they'd put some work into cleaning up and modernising Mounted Combat but whether or not that happens I will still be using my War-steed in most situations for two reasons, the increased speed and most importantly the increased 'awareness' range. On a War-steed I can keyboard select objects and entities much farther away than normal and to me this is a huge benefit when exploring and adventuring.
    That's actually not a bad idea.

    As for modernizing Mounted Combat, I think that if they used this new system and included an increased armor and endurance main stat, and then included such traceries as, say, increased melee range (or ranged range or healing range) such as what we saw on the weapon LIs, I think that would go a long way to improving the system overall. I honestly don't think the entire system is bad per se. I think that the bridles we currently have don't quite interact with various warsteed traits in the most desirable way.

    Then there's the rubberbanding. That's probably something on the backend that I can't even begin to make a suggestion about. Just a plead of "please look into it."

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillard1959 View Post
    Actual data? No. But when Cordovan says only a small part of the playerbase actually utilizes mounted combat, I'm given to take him at his word.....

    Well, how much of that is self-fulfilling though? I mean when you neglect a system for so long, such that values are a tiny fraction of what they should be for current content, what's the point in using it?

  20. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    Well, how much of that is self-fulfilling though? I mean when you neglect a system for so long, such that values are a tiny fraction of what they should be for current content, what's the point in using it?
    That's kinda the point, though. If EG7 has their way, they're going to make a big push to capitalize on the buzz the TV series will generate. That means new players, many of who will have never stepped foot in the game before. At least some of those will make it to Rohan in relatively quick fashion. It might be a good idea to make that experience as painless as possible.

    That being said, there is a lot of things that absolutely should be prioritized before this. Launcher issues, 4k resolutions and monetization issues should be addressed before this. Which, realistically, will probably eat up their time. But that's not to say that Mounted Combat shouldn't ever get looked over. QoL for legacy systems is nearly as important as new content when it comes to attracting new players. But in this regard, I don't really lay this at the feet of SSG, but rather EG7. If they're actually serious about growing this game and keeping it profitable.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillard1959 View Post
    That's kinda the point, though. If EG7 has their way, they're going to make a big push to capitalize on the buzz the TV series will generate. That means new players, many of who will have never stepped foot in the game before. At least some of those will make it to Rohan in relatively quick fashion. It might be a good idea to make that experience as painless as possible.

    That being said, there is a lot of things that absolutely should be prioritized before this. Launcher issues, 4k resolutions and monetization issues should be addressed before this. Which, realistically, will probably eat up their time. But that's not to say that Mounted Combat shouldn't ever get looked over. QoL for legacy systems is nearly as important as new content when it comes to attracting new players. But in this regard, I don't really lay this at the feet of SSG, but rather EG7. If they're actually serious about growing this game and keeping it profitable.
    If there is a large influx of new players, the increase in numbers alone will likely cause massive problems the way things are currently.

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    If there is a large influx of new players, the increase in numbers alone will likely cause massive problems the way things are currently.
    And there's the rub. Granted, I'm probably too emotionally involved to be completely rational about this, but I still believe in this game. And I believe in this team. Yes, it's a bit dated. I'm sure you could serve a good bit of the code up with meatballs. But the amount of care and detail placed into LOTRO to recreate Middle Earth is, simply put, amazing and unmatched. I honestly, at one point, did not think the game would survive WB. And it nearly didn't. SSG stepped in, gave us Mordor and have largely returned the game to form. I honestly hadn't had that much fun in this game since Rise of Isengard. This is the only game in existence that gives me that. And I'm grateful.

    But now is not the time to be complacent. While it's no longer a thing, it wasn't that long ago there was another LOTR MMO being developed. I had no faith in that one, and ultimately I was proven right. But what if I had been wrong? What if it picked up and flourished? I can't say that it would have killed this game, but it would have definitely hurt it. It was a warning shot. Which makes it seem obvious to me that there's still a good deal of interest for players in a Middle Earth MMO.

    And that's largely on EG7. They're the ones who, ultimately, now own this game. They're the ones who set budgets and hire new talent. If it was within their power to place a team in place to review the code, then it's in their power to put together a team to work on technical issues on SSG's behalf, allowing SSG to continue working on new content and revamping systems.

    I don't expect this game to last forever. But I do have a hope, however small, that it might outlast me. Which isn't nearly as big an ask as you might think.

 

 
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