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  1. #1
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    Any Plans to Make Combat More Engaging After You Kill Weapon Swapping?

    I would really like to know if SSG is happy with the level of engagement and speed of combat for fast-paced DPS classes with weapon swapping being thrown out the window. I listened to Cord of the Rings today and I have to say I took issue with how Cordovan framed weapon swapping, most notably that it is just "cheesing the system".

    I bring this up because it makes me feel like you guys never really understood the implications of swapping. It's not cheesing the system when the system is designed and balanced around it. I guarantee you not a single group would have cleared T5 FoKD if you took away weapon swapping, so we certainly weren't doing anything wrong by leveraging it. I understand there are a loud group of non-raid ready players who frame this argument over and over again on the forums, but it's just not true.

    In any case, I want to look to the future of LOTRO combat. As it stands, fast-paced DPS classes will be hardly that once swapping is gone. I believe we need more to do in combat and I'd like to hear if SSG has plans to make the combat system more engaging for DPS classes in a post-swapping world.

    One suggestion I and others have made in the past is to introduce or re-introduce stances for DPS classes. They already exist for hunters and wardens, but they currently serve very little to no purpose and can be enhanced upon greatly.

    In my opinion, we would ideally end up in a place where all DPS classes have stances to choose from. These stances would provide situational benefits or modifications to skill efficacy that would incentivize players to swap through them in combat. As long as there is no CD and no animation (and they do not cut other animations as immediate skills do), then they could provide a way for DPS classes to do much more in combat and squeeze out a small incremental amout of DPS as reward for doing so.

    This solves the problem that LI swapping created (huge grind, making legacy selection pointless, huge disparity in DPS for swap vs no swap), but it brings back the things that are essential (more engaging combat system, ability to push the limits higher to squeeze out incremental DPS).

    I guess this all boils down to the following questions for SSG:

    1) Are you happy with a less engaging combat system?
    2) If not, what are your plans to make combat more fast-paced and engaging as it was with weapon swapping enabled?
    Last edited by Strider5548; Sep 17 2021 at 05:10 PM.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning

  2. #2
    "Excuse me, Sir Orc. I know you're trying to kill me, but could you step back for just a few seconds? I have to swap weapons."

    I suggest that if you can't have fun without weapons swapping, you don't know how to press buttons and perhaps tiddlywinks is more your speed.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    I listened to Cord of the Rings today and I have to say I took issue with how Cordovan framed weapon swapping, most notably that it is just "cheesing the system".
    Yeah, I don't like the word cheesing either. Exploit is more accurate.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    There would be no possible way to make combat *less* engaging than to keep weapon swapping.

  5. #5
    Weapon Swapping was an unintended and intended System. LOTRO and SSG in particular allowed such to keep going on so long.

    Now SSG, LOTRO and the LOTRO Community will suffer for a time as we begin rebuilding from various changes LOTRO will wrap up with to round out 2021.

    Get comfy.

  6. #6
    Hunter doesn’t need swapping on new LIs as all legacies are available. Sword doesn’t limit legacies anymore.
    Warden main hand LI dps is above crafted so no swapping there.
    Champion 1h dps is above 2h dps by quite a bit on ferocious and brutal strikes as of yesterday so no need to swap there.

    Not sure about burg needing swapping as I never played it much.

    So, if there is no dps need for swapping would you start swapping if it was allowed again? Why?

  7. #7
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    Going to be really fun and interesting when you realise you started the fight with the wrong IoL equipped and can't swap in the right one any more.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    Going to be really fun and interesting when you realise you started the fight with the wrong IoL equipped and can't swap in the right one any more.
    The situation would be different, but how much? People might not only forget to swap in their LI, but also other stuff. Or they might not even notice.

    The mentioned problem could probably be solved by having complete setup pages for multiple roles - similar to cosmetic pages. Maybe a QOL feature that should be there anyway. People can of course use sequence bars or similar, but maybe it is time to move this from plugins to the game.

    It could also be solved by having long in-combat CDs on swapping.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post

    1) Are you happy with a less engaging combat system?
    2) If not, what are your plans to make combat more fast-paced and engaging as it was with weapon swapping enabled?
    I think those questions are really for you, if these qualities are important to you in a game, why play LOTRO?
    LOTRO combat was never engaging or fast paced, nor did it require lightning fast reflexes, you could play perfectly well with just a few gentle mouse clicks and occasional peck at the keyboard.

    Stop trying to turn LOTRO in to something it isn't and never was.
    Evernight - Walred (Champ), Walmur (RK), Walbert-2 (Cappy)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Once_of_Bree View Post
    I think those questions are really for you, if these qualities are important to you in a game, why play LOTRO?
    LOTRO combat was never engaging or fast paced, nor did it require lightning fast reflexes, you could play perfectly well with just a few gentle mouse clicks and occasional peck at the keyboard.

    Stop trying to turn LOTRO in to something it isn't and never was.
    yo link a dps parse of you clicking skills with an occasional "keyboard peck". i'm sure you're a top tier player

  11. #11
    well thats really only needed if he needs to show a parse to get in a TOP TIER raid.

    since the majority of players are not raiders and you can pretty much casually stroll thru landscape with a couple clicks and a peck or 2 at the keyboard. hes not wrong.

    all the raiders i know will master the new system and have meta builds SSG never dreamed of in no time and they will adapt to no weapon swapping with ease,

    if they or you dont like the changes just go play something else, hopefully enough like the changes to stick around cuz i dont think LOTRO can survive another failed system at this point.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    I bring this up because it makes me feel like you guys never really understood the implications of swapping. It's not cheesing the system when the system is designed and balanced around it.
    Weapon Swapping was never really an intended feature, as Lotro was never made with weapon swapping in mind at all, not even close, so no nothing was ever designed around it as you claim, It is there yes, but they just never changed it in forever until now, I never done the swapping myself, though i never saw it as much of an issue, but at same time it doesn't make sense to me as the game isn't build around the idea. Players who play a Champion would never need to swap if their class was balanced better with damage and such.
    Pontin Level 130 Hobbit Burglar Leader of Second Breakfast Crickhollow Server.
    Alts: Belladonea Hobbit Minstrel, Unnari Dwarf Guardian, Jorunn Man Captain, Anemonellie Hobbit Guardian. Laurelin Server, Edwell Man Hunter.



    Taken many Screenshots of Middle-earth, Also a Moderator of the LotRO Community Discord server

  13. #13
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    How are your fishing rod stats guys? What are your rod parses looking like? I kind of like the idea of a Rod of Legend. Impact as far as classes go is the differences ways IoL are unequipped or not when taking up a rod.

    Is class item swap allowed? Well no given the implied reasoning.
    I wish the devs would be clear with naming, Items of Legend not new LIs. Weapon swapping or IoL swapping. Which is it?

    Clearly the ability to swap weapons and class slot items in combat have always been part of the game at least since fishing, just taken to the nth degree in one or two cases. We can stack traceries to not need to, we have champ weapon type damage near equality to reach these aims going in. These are the things that needed addressing.

    Does the swap go away with non IoL weaponry and class items also? Are these taxing the server performance?

    Can you at least equip if it's slot is free, can you remove a rod in combat?

    One round of beta left

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    How are your fishing rod stats guys? What are your rod parses looking like? I kind of like the idea of a Rod of Legend. Impact as far as classes go is the differences ways IoL are unequipped or not when taking up a rod.(

    I think a simple fix to being stuck with a fishing rod equipped while in combat,
    (look at Dor Armath quests then the quests in Vales of Anduin where you have to fish up rubbish for Radagast in a place that is filled with hostile mobs)
    Would to add a hobby slot so you can have your fishing pole equipped passively and you only see it when you have it cosmetically equipped or go fishing.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nubja View Post
    yo link a dps parse of you clicking skills with an occasional "keyboard peck". i'm sure you're a top tier player
    I never claimed to be, funny thing I've played since launch and never found the DPS parse option, odd isn't it.
    Evernight - Walred (Champ), Walmur (RK), Walbert-2 (Cappy)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Once_of_Bree View Post
    I think those questions are really for you, if these qualities are important to you in a game, why play LOTRO?
    LOTRO combat was never engaging or fast paced, nor did it require lightning fast reflexes, you could play perfectly well with just a few gentle mouse clicks and occasional peck at the keyboard.

    Stop trying to turn LOTRO in to something it isn't and never was.
    You don't play the same LOTRO I play, as you noted later you don't even know how to check a DPS parse. There is an entire community in this game that enjoys and thrives on the fast paced combat system we have in place (until Gundabad). These people pay a lot of money for LOTRO and they keep end game alive. When this game loses all raids or turns to flower picking the population dies, we've seen it happen before.

    I play festivals, the music system, landscape, slow leveling, PvMP, all the way through T5 raiding. I play all elements of this game and I know this game well. I am not the one trying to turn it into something it's not, but there are a lot of loud casual players who don't understand 90% of what happens after you hit level 130 that are trying to turn LOTRO into something it's not.

    As for all the trolls who posted here, not going to address some of your ridiculous comments, please return under the bridge you came from.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Once_of_Bree View Post
    I never claimed to be, funny thing I've played since launch and never found the DPS parse option, odd isn't it.
    Have to spend figments to barter a target dummy and place it in your yard. Rarely available but it's still a thing and gives you a report. It's always your level unlike those in the world so great for comparisons.
    Like Alexa but more judgemental.

    You can study combat logs all day long for the minutia but combat analysis will give it to you straight. It's only tabulating a thing in the game that existed before the game.

  18. #18
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    May 2016
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    22

    the end isnt the destination

    You speak of "endgamers" like the world owes you a living .
    This game was always about the road and not the end .
    You're at the end , that's what you wanted , get over it .

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylnconn View Post
    You speak of "endgamers" like the world owes you a living .
    This game was always about the road and not the end .
    You're at the end , that's what you wanted , get over it .
    I've been what you would call casual for a long while due to real life commitments but I'd rather associate myself with anything else. Why?

    A lot of you hardly know a thing about truly mastering one's class, completing challenging content and so forth. And no, I'm not saying you should and that there is no game outside of your comfort zone but holy smokes you are the first ones to mock anyone and anything that mentions endgame, challenging content and people who value those things over other types of gameplay. Any major change that has a significant impact on a certain user base, be it casuals or non-casuals, should absolutely be discussed and criticized. The questions Strider raised are valid and I hope SSG staff recognize those concerns. I don't think players are expecting any major updates in the coming weeks but given how much champion gameplay is affected, experienced players and their feedback should be listened and taken seriously. I'm cautiously opitimistic thanks to greatly improved communication and I hope everything turns out well.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus778 View Post
    The questions Strider raised are valid and I hope SSG staff recognize those concerns. I don't think players are expecting any major updates in the coming weeks but given how much champion gameplay is affected, experienced players and their feedback should be listened and taken seriously. I'm cautiously opitimistic thanks to greatly improved communication and I hope everything turns out well.
    Ehh, I'm not sure their questions are particularly valid, it's all highly subjective.

    Weapon swapping may well have been engaging for them, but that doesn't mean everyone found it so. Personally I found it somewhat tedious, didn't really appreciate having to add additional keybinds for the sake of it. With weapon swapping removed you're still making pretty much the exact same number of decisions you were making before, you just don't have to press as many buttons to do it. APM has certainly been reduced but LOTRO still has fairly high APM for a tab-target MMO and it's pretty debatable whether high APM makes for good gameplay anyway. I mean clearly it's important to OP but whether it is that important to everyone else is something we can only answer on an individual level.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    You don't play the same LOTRO I play, as you noted later you don't even know how to check a DPS parse. There is an entire community in this game that enjoys and thrives on the fast paced combat system we have in place (until Gundabad). These people pay a lot of money for LOTRO and they keep end game alive. When this game loses all raids or turns to flower picking the population dies, we've seen it happen before.

    I play festivals, the music system, landscape, slow leveling, PvMP, all the way through T5 raiding. I play all elements of this game and I know this game well. I am not the one trying to turn it into something it's not, but there are a lot of loud casual players who don't understand 90% of what happens after you hit level 130 that are trying to turn LOTRO into something it's not.

    As for all the trolls who posted here, not going to address some of your ridiculous comments, please return under the bridge you came from.
    Rather, there are a lot of whales who think exploits are cool. I used to raid, but when it was fun. When you could enter on with a wide range of classes and think your way through a raid. Now it's just tiny tweaks to weapons and gear and following a script. You find that fun, many don't. It's why so many casual players have left the game.

    As some folks pointed out, there's only one place where a "weapon swap" matters. When you're in Rohan and need to switch from a fishing rod to a weapon.

    If you really can't find out how to fight without the completely unrealistic cheat of weapons swapping, I'll repeat the same way you repeat -- maybe an MMO isn't for you.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froyo_K_Baggins View Post
    I used to raid, but when it was fun. When you could enter on with a wide range of classes and think your way through a raid. Now it's just tiny tweaks to weapons and gear and following a script. You find that fun, many don't. It's why so many casual players have left the game.
    Can't say I have any idea what you're talking about with raiding there.

    Old LOTRO raids are significantly more basic than modern raids, and required much less thought. Generally the old raids would only ever throw one mechanic at you at a time, modern raids focus on a lot more overlap of mechanics. The actual strategies are notably less scripted these days and tend to have a bit of variation as people are required to respond to what is actually occurring that particular run. There's a greater emphasis on thinking in modern raids due to the increased challenge being presented on those higher tiers, a level of challenge that was notably absent from the older stuff.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Can't say I have any idea what you're talking about with raiding there.

    Old LOTRO raids are significantly more basic than modern raids, and required much less thought. Generally the old raids would only ever throw one mechanic at you at a time, modern raids focus on a lot more overlap of mechanics. The actual strategies are notably less scripted these days and tend to have a bit of variation as people are required to respond to what is actually occurring that particular run. There's a greater emphasis on thinking in modern raids due to the increased challenge being presented on those higher tiers, a level of challenge that was notably absent from the older stuff.
    Says someone with "take the player not the class" as a sig line while we all know leaders want an except mix and refuse certain classes completely. The fact that happens completely argues against your claim.

    There were multiple tactics used all the way back to the original Everswim turtle raid. As for claiming everything was the same, sure, there weren't different bosses in DN that needed different tactics. There weren't very different thinking needed in the rest of Moria, still the based grouping of instances. Now it's not even just class. There are certain specs required to even enter a T1, a level of grinding that drives away the casual player.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froyo_K_Baggins View Post
    Says someone with "take the player not the class" as a sig line while we all know leaders want an except mix and refuse certain classes completely. The fact that happens completely argues against your claim.
    No, it really doesn't. You're trying to compare 50-65 raids with their T1-T2C difficulties to T5. Those things aren't comparable. T5 of modern LOTRO content takes significantly more co-ordination than those old raids, they simply weren't designed to the same level of difficulty. It would be more fair for you to compare something like original Rift to T2 of modern content, T2 of modern content has no particular class requirements, any class will accomplish their given role just fine. The meta only really starts to matter T3+.

    Quote Originally Posted by Froyo_K_Baggins View Post
    There were multiple tactics used all the way back to the original Everswim turtle raid. As for claiming everything was the same, sure, there weren't different bosses in DN that needed different tactics. There weren't very different thinking needed in the rest of Moria, still the based grouping of instances. Now it's not even just class. There are certain specs required to even enter a T1, a level of grinding that drives away the casual player.
    Evendim doesn't have a turtle raid, Filikul is Moria and Filikul was cleared within 17 minutes of release so didn't exactly require much thought/effort. I did not claim everything was the same, I pointed out that mechanically everything tended to follow a step by step pattern of mechanics as opposed to modern design which tends to lump a variety of different mechanics together at once.

    And no, certain specs are not required for T1, literally any class/role combination can complete T1 without much issue. People really seem to focus on a meta they don't understand, a Red Guardian is not a bad DPS spec, it's very competent...it just doesn't quite match a Champion and doesn't bring much support so nobody at a T5 level is going to choose it over something that does bring those things. In T1, you don't need those things at all but people still think they need to follow the meta, you don't.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  25. #25
    Evendim does have an instance with a turtle which cannot be beat if the players do not know the details. Whether it is a raid or not could be debatable.
    "That what is explicitly two, can at the same time be implicitly one."

    Alan Watts

 

 
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