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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    Evendim does have an instance with a turtle which cannot be beat if the players do not know the details. Whether it is a raid or not could be debatable.
    Tomb of Elendil Fellowship Instance. Boss is called Nornagol, a Turtle.

    Just to give context to what Instance and Boss.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    You don't play the same LOTRO I play, as you noted later you don't even know how to check a DPS parse. There is an entire community in this game that enjoys and thrives on the fast paced combat system we have in place (until Gundabad). These people pay a lot of money for LOTRO and they keep end game alive. When this game loses all raids or turns to flower picking the population dies, we've seen it happen before.

    I play festivals, the music system, landscape, slow leveling, PvMP, all the way through T5 raiding. I play all elements of this game and I know this game well. I am not the one trying to turn it into something it's not, but there are a lot of loud casual players who don't understand 90% of what happens after you hit level 130 that are trying to turn LOTRO into something it's not.

    As for all the trolls who posted here, not going to address some of your ridiculous comments, please return under the bridge you came from.
    Firstly, calling people that disagree with you trolls, isn't really doing much for your argument. Please be civil and rational.

    You keep referring to weapon swapping as "fast-paced" combat. It isn't. All the skills that you use, regardless of weapon are all governed by the same cooldowns. You hit more keys, yes, but its hardly what I'd call fast-paced. Those people that you refer to as paying money for LOTRO, are not the only ones that pay it. I agree, the loss of raiding and boring, monotonous landscape ideas like flower picking lose players. So does tougher landscape (Mordor lost it's fair share of players) and weapon swapping has causes it's fair share of "used to" raid players that no longer want to raid because - weapon swapping has become the criteria which determines their spot.

    I use weapon swapping on a few characters, and not on others. Depends which character it is and how often I take it into raids. I won't miss it. It should never have got to a place where it is a mandatory playstyle.

    Now, if they were to introduce a level of complexity to combat that involves using skills and function built into the actual combat side of it, rather than through gear swapping (which they did away with years ago), and swapping out weapons or other things, I'd support that.
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  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    As for all the trolls who posted here, not going to address some of your ridiculous comments, please return under the bridge you came from.

    Yea, if you run out of arguments you have to offend people. -.-

    To be clear, if i play this game, raiding is a big part of it. But where are your other mates ? You are literally the only one in the forums complaining so hard against the plans to remove weapon swapping. Where are all the raiders to change the mind of SSG ?

  4. #29
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    I wouldn't mind weapon swapping if it wasn't tied to the grindiest system in the whole game! But it is, and the new LI system seems to be just as if not more grindy. Classes needs to be able to shine in their main spec without weapon swapping, simple as that. And maybe we can get to that point now with swapping being disabled.
    Last edited by bjute; Sep 20 2021 at 04:28 AM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    Evendim does have an instance with a turtle which cannot be beat if the players do not know the details. Whether it is a raid or not could be debatable.
    Not really up for debate. LOTRO defines "Raid content" as 12-24 man content. That Evendim instance can only be entered by up to 6 players are a time.
    Last edited by Joedangod; Sep 20 2021 at 06:49 AM.
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  6. #31
    People seriously comparing L40 instance to T3+ FOKD?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Firstly, calling people that disagree with you trolls, isn't really doing much for your argument. Please be civil and rational.
    Read the first few responses in this thread. No substance, just insults, I call those trolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Now, if they were to introduce a level of complexity to combat that involves using skills and function built into the actual combat side of it, rather than through gear swapping (which they did away with years ago), and swapping out weapons or other things, I'd support that.
    It sounds like you agree with me, maybe you didn't read my suggestion? This thread has nothing to do with bringing back weapon swapping, it's about making combat more engaging and fast paced for classes that have always been described as 'fast-paced' DPS classes.
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  8. #33
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    Personally, most people I know who weapon swap don't particularly enjoy having to do so. It's just something that needs to be done, so you grin and bear it. I think a lot of top-tier raiders will be happy to see it go.

    I'd rather SSG put more effort into creating engaging encounters, rather than ones where needing to eke out that last bit of DPS via weapon swapping is the difference between success and failure.
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  9. #34
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    Learning to mash which buttons and when is, well, just learning to mash which buttons and when. Like learning your multiplication tables. Or that poem you have to recite in front of class. Weapon swapping does nothing to make it more engaging. It's just another button to mash.

    It's not chess it's noughts and crosses. Just don't put your X in the wrong box.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Personally, most people I know who weapon swap don't particularly enjoy having to do so. It's just something that needs to be done, so you grin and bear it. I think a lot of top-tier raiders will be happy to see it go.

    I'd rather SSG put more effort into creating engaging encounters, rather than ones where needing to eke out that last bit of DPS via weapon swapping is the difference between success and failure.
    Like FOKD then; enough of this "engaging encounters" rubbish. You've got one and most people can't do it.

    And trust me, the people that have completed FOKD T5 in general do not want weapon swapping to go,

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubja View Post
    Like FOKD then; enough of this "engaging encounters" rubbish. You've got one and most people can't do it.

    And trust me, the people that have completed FOKD T5 in general do not want weapon swapping to go,
    Maybe, but I don't buy that it's because it's more engaging.
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  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Maybe, but I don't buy that it's because it's more engaging.
    There's no maybe about it. it is a highly engaging and complex encounter.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubja View Post
    There's no maybe about it. it is a highly engaging and complex encounter.
    Think they were talking about weapon swapping with that remark.

    Either way, people need to stop throwing out the word "engaging" as it honestly doesn't have a consistent definition for anyone within this thread. You may consider the inflated APM that weapon swapping results in to be "engaging" but others are perfectly within their rights to instead consider it tedious or any other word. Some find pressing more buttons increases their engagement, some find that making more decisions is what increases their engagement, there may be a correlation between those two things but equally there may not be. There could also be many other factors that influence how "engaged" people are when operating their character in combat. There simply is no singular answer for what is and is not "engaging".
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    There simply is no singular answer for what is and is not "engaging".
    Whilst you are correct in this statement; for the most part from what I can glean from the thread is that those people who enjoyed weapon swapping, or robustly engaged with it, will now find themselves in a position wherein combat will feel much slower, which is true no matter which side of the argument you are on, you are inputting fewer commands, have less to do, and less to engage with. I feel like perhaps ''engaging'' is not the right word to use in this instance, because it is entirely subjective to each individual person.

    That being said, everything is subjective to everyones own playstyle, outside of weapon swapping LOTRO's combat system is rather average and simplistic, not to say weapon-swapping made it any less of either of those things, but it required a greater level of participation, especially so in the case of min/max champs and hunters. It is not wrong however for someone to ask for SSG to make combat more ''engaging'' to them [that person], if that is what they want, they are free to ask for it. Will there be some great consensus on what that actually means? Of course not, but people can still put their ideas forward and SSG can either take them on board or ignore them.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    [weapon swapping] required a greater level of participation
    That part remains debatable. Does adding an extra key modifier to each skill force a greater level of participation or are you just making the control scheme less intuitive? The gameplay with weapon swapping wasn't inherently superior or inferior to the gameplay without, it is simply different.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    That part remains debatable. Does adding an extra key modifier to each skill force a greater level of participation or are you just making the control scheme less intuitive? The gameplay with weapon swapping wasn't inherently superior or inferior to the gameplay without, it is simply different.
    This is not debatable. Whether you like weapon swapping or not you were doing more and now you will be doing less. Good hunters and bad hunters will be harder to differentiate when it comes to pure DPS numbers now, it's a fact. The spread between the the best parses and good parses will be much thinner, and it has nothing to do with swapping vs not swapping, I'm talking about a good parse with swapping and a great parse with swapping.

    Also, you guys need to stop getting hung up on the word "engaging", for some people engaging might mean playing shire quests over and over again for 15 years, I regret using this word because so many people fail to get the point.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    This is not debatable. Whether you like weapon swapping or not you were doing more and now you will be doing less.
    No, now you're pressing fewer buttons to perform the same number of actual actions. It's like moving from a shoddy keybinding setup to one that actually keeps things organised, close together, and minimises movement. In-game you're technically still firing off the same number of abilities, there's just less faffing about with random extra key modifiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    Good hunters and bad hunters will be harder to differentiate when it comes to pure DPS numbers now, it's a fact. The spread between the the best parses and good parses will be much thinner, and it has nothing to do with swapping vs not swapping, I'm talking about a good parse with swapping and a great parse with swapping.
    What are you basing that off of? If anything the percentage difference between "good" and "bad" should generally stay about the same as both would have their skill damage equally impacted by the removal of weapon swapping, everyone weapon swapping was getting the same modifiers to their skills. The gap closing in terms of parses would primarily be between people who didn't weapon swap at all and those who did swap. Which doesn't really have any inherent negatives, actually kinda works out as a positive balance-wise as there's less variation in the playerbase at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    Also, you guys need to stop getting hung up on the word "engaging", for some people engaging might mean playing shire quests over and over again for 15 years, I regret using this word because so many people fail to get the point.
    I dunno that anyone missed the point you were trying to make, they mostly just seem to disagree with it. You think weapon swapping added something to the game whereas others here seem to think it detracted from it instead. You want to bring some of those aspects back, others want those aspects to remain buried. People disagreeing with you aren't "failing to get the point", they just don't think the point has merit.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    That part remains debatable. Does adding an extra key modifier to each skill force a greater level of participation or are you just making the control scheme less intuitive? The gameplay with weapon swapping wasn't inherently superior or inferior to the gameplay without, it is simply different.
    Yes. It does involve a greater level of participation. It requires a greater thought process, and I also noted;

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    LOTRO's combat system is rather average and simplistic, not to say weapon-swapping made it any less of either of those things
    I did not quantify the system as being superior or inferior with weapon swapping, I simply said that those that liked it, and robustly engaged with it will now find their combat slower, which is not something that can be argued, because it will be, to them. I also said, what qualifies as 'engaging' is different to each individual person, but that each individual person has their own right to submit ideas as to how they would want combat to be engaging for them.

    So arguing whether or not it has merit is irrelevant, because it does have merit, to the person that is making the suggestion, you cannot simply say their idea has no merit because there are some people that have disagreed with them.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Yes. It does involve a greater level of participation. It requires a greater thought process, and I also noted;
    If I were to rig up a system where every single time you pressed a key, you'd have to follow it up by dodging a blast of pepper spray to the face... Would you immediately jump to the conclusion that this new control system has a greater level of participation or would you go with more of a "This is an exceptionally dumb thing to do, you're just making controlling the character needlessly irritating" kind of view?

    Ironically it doesn't require any greater thought process as most people just rely on muscle memory to handle it properly rather than consciously making the decision to swap weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    I did not quantify the system as being superior or inferior with weapon swapping, I simply said that those that liked it, and robustly engaged with it will now find their combat slower, which is not something that can be argued, because it will be, to them. I also said, what qualifies as 'engaging' is different to each individual person, but that each individual person has their own right to submit ideas as to how they would want combat to be engaging for them.
    The reference to being superior/inferior was mostly directed at the OP and their original set of questions which were founded on a faulty premise:

    1) Are you happy with a less engaging combat system? It's not a "less engaging combat system", it's simply a different combat system.
    2) If not, what are your plans to make combat more fast-paced and engaging as it was with weapon swapping enabled? Weapon swapping technically did not speed up the pace of combat and again, the engaging bit is utterly subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    So arguing whether or not it has merit is irrelevant, because it does have merit, to the person that is making the suggestion, you cannot simply say their idea has no merit because there are some people that have disagreed with them.
    Hmm, suppose everyone just needs to be really supportive of my pepper spray control system then. It has merit, doesn't need to be a good idea or even something that is remotely feasible, if it has been written down in a forum it automatically has merit and must be considered.

    If you want something to have merit you kinda need to back it up with some solid reasoning/evidence, which OP has yet to do. If all OP wishes to do is put forth their own personal opinion that weapon swapping is superior to no weapon swapping then yeah, people disagreeing with that opinion kinda just cancels all the merit out.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    If I were to rig up a system where every single time you pressed a key, you'd have to follow it up by dodging a blast of pepper spray to the face... Would you immediately jump to the conclusion that this new control system has a greater level of participation or would you go with more of a "This is an exceptionally dumb thing to do, you're just making controlling the character needlessly irritating" kind of view?

    Ironically it doesn't require any greater thought process as most people just rely on muscle memory to handle it properly rather than consciously making the decision to swap weapon.
    It requires an additional thought process to swap, whether it was from muscle memory or not, you are making that decision to do it, thus greater participation, likewise extending your arguments to the extent of a logical fallacy doesn't really help support what you are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    The reference to being superior/inferior was mostly directed at the OP and their original set of questions which were founded on a faulty premise:

    1) Are you happy with a less engaging combat system? It's not a "less engaging combat system", it's simply a different combat system.
    2) If not, what are your plans to make combat more fast-paced and engaging as it was with weapon swapping enabled? Weapon swapping technically did not speed up the pace of combat and again, the engaging bit is utterly subjective.
    Weapon swapping required more input per minute, which therefore resulted in the player making more conscious decisions, if you completely negate that process, which disabling weapon swapping does, it equates to there being less to do, less to think about, and more time inbetween your inputs, because you are not inputting however many extra actions for swapping, which all equates to a slower feel during combat. Of course weapon swapping did not ''actually'' speed up the pace of combat, but losing the ability to weapon swap, has the perceived effect that combat is slower, because you [as the person behind the player] are doing less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Hmm, suppose everyone just needs to be really supportive of my pepper spray control system then. It has merit, doesn't need to be a good idea or even something that is remotely feasible, if it has been written down in a forum it automatically has merit and must be considered.
    Other than engaging in reductio ad absurdum, if you put forth a genuine idea or opinion, it has merit, whether or not is considered is entirely the prerogative of SSG and no one else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    If you want something to have merit you kinda need to back it up with some solid reasoning/evidence, which OP has yet to do. If all OP wishes to do is put forth their own personal opinion that weapon swapping is superior to no weapon swapping then yeah, people disagreeing with that opinion kinda just cancels all the merit out.
    It doesn't cancel it out, because it has merit to the person who suggested it; if someone has an opinion or idea that people disagree with, it doesn't mean their opinion or idea is invalid or any less valuable [or meritable] than someone elses, it just means it lacks support.

    EDIT: Quite frankly, it is not up to us to decide whether or not someones opinion has merit or not anyway, it's an opinion, it can't really have merit, all you can reasonably say is that you either agree or disagree with it, because giving something merit just posits that you agree with the idea or the opinion, and just because there are people that disagree with it, likewise there are people that agree with it, unless you plan to take a poll of everyone who wants to offer an opinion and see whether more people disagree with it than agree with it, you cannot justify saying that it doesn't have merit.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Sep 21 2021 at 02:01 PM.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    Any Plans to Make Combat More Engaging After You Kill Weapon Swapping?
    I know this is a very serious subject for you. But I can't help myself from replying...

    Inside information has leaked on the level of immersion that will be released in the game in 2022 as a replacement for weapon swapping. The default will be normal immersion, but for those that wish a higher level of Combat Engagement there will be three additional levels added: [ purchased with LPs]

    1) Level 1 - Eau de Orc. Combat will be no more dangerous than now, but your house will reek of sweaty Orcs.
    2) Level 2 - Blood Lust. You will get to wear a special set of real life armor that sticks knifes into your body and draws blood every time you take a hit in the game.
    3) Level 3 - Dragon Fire. SSG will send a real, 10 ft high, non house-trained dragon to live in your home. The dragon is wired to become increasingly violent the more you attack mobs in the game.

    SSG is looking for input on other levels.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavinDwarf View Post
    .....
    Since when does Immersion = Engagement?

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    If you want something to have merit you kinda need to back it up with some solid reasoning/evidence, which OP has yet to do. If all OP wishes to do is put forth their own personal opinion that weapon swapping is superior to no weapon swapping then yeah, people disagreeing with that opinion kinda just cancels all the merit out.
    You seem to be really fixated on my opinions/ideas having "no merit". That's fine, not going to engage in a long irrelevant argument with you, you have fun, I will continue posting my thoughts on this game with zero consideration for distracting side arguments.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    Read the first few responses in this thread. No substance, just insults, I call those trolls.



    It sounds like you agree with me, maybe you didn't read my suggestion? This thread has nothing to do with bringing back weapon swapping, it's about making combat more engaging and fast paced for classes that have always been described as 'fast-paced' DPS classes.
    Forgive me then, for what I took from this part of your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    You don't play the same LOTRO I play, as you noted later you don't even know how to check a DPS parse. There is an entire community in this game that enjoys and thrives on the fast paced combat system we have in place (until Gundabad). These people pay a lot of money for LOTRO and they keep end game alive. When this game loses all raids or turns to flower picking the population dies, we've seen it happen before.
    "There is an entire community in this game that enjoys and thrives on the fast paced combat system we have in place (until Gundabad)" is referring to weapon swapping though right? What we have now? And then to refer to those people as the ones paying a lot of money for LOTRO, as if, somehow, their money is more important than anyone elses? The game dies a little with many, and varied aspects of the game. IMO, the current weapon swapping is a contributor. It's become too mandatory for some classes for getting a spot in raids. Some players really aren't interested in the grind that takes and it has nothing to do with them wanting to kill off the game or make content easier or more casual orientated.

    Then there was this . . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post

    I play festivals, the music system, landscape, slow leveling, PvMP, all the way through T5 raiding. I play all elements of this game and I know this game well. I am not the one trying to turn it into something it's not, but there are a lot of loud casual players who don't understand 90% of what happens after you hit level 130 that are trying to turn LOTRO into something it's not.

    As for all the trolls who posted here, not going to address some of your ridiculous comments, please return under the bridge you came from.
    Casual players don't necessarily not understand what the game is about after they hit level 130, they just play a different version of game than you, and they understand it perfectly fine for how they play. Their play style isn't in any form incorrect or "something that LOTRO isn't." If it were then that kind of game play wouldn't exist and if it did - they'd get rid of it, like they are doing with weapon swapping. They may be loud about how they prefer to play, and that's fine. You're being pretty loud about your own preferences, and that too, is fine. Having your opinion is not an issue, but let others have theirs too and without the labels of being casual, loud or clueless of what the game is or supposed to be. Some people like basic or less complicated, and that doesn't equate to them making the game die.

    I don't agree with your other thread opinions about keeping weapon swapping, but I agree with you that combat could be more interesting, but you can say that, without ^^^^ all that other stuff.
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  25. #50
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    > I agree with you that combat could be more interesting<

    Combat can be made worse a lot more easily than it can be made better.

    If you are looking for LOTRO combat to go more in the direction of "action combat" - where player reflexes, vision and internet connection matter more than they do now and character skills and gear matter less - all I can say is may the Valar grant that you not get your wish in any slightest way.

    There are many games like that and New World is about to join the long list of action combat games. We do not need any more. The lore and history of LOTRO and in general the preferences of the players are far better suited to a somewhat slower and more strategic style in the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons where character development matters a *lot* more than how frenetically a player can hit keys.

 

 
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