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  1. #1

    Exclamation Updated for Beta 3 Feedback - Major issues with Minstrel class and LIs for healing and dps

    Existing issues updated for Beta 3

    Greetings,

    Upon further testing there are still several major issues with Minstrel on this Bullroarer build in both its healing spec and its dps, that need to be addressed before they get to live.

    Heal specialization:

    1. Behind the scenes 10-15% decrease on healing skills tooltips between BR and Live servers with same old LIs.
    2. Triumphant Spirit skill's cooldown is not affected by the Triumphant Spirit trait in the Watcher of Resolve trait line.
    3. Inspire Fellows remains totally broken.
    4. Fellowship's Heart skill's initial heal is not affected by any "Word of Power" tracery. FIXED in Beta 3.
    5. The removal of the 34.8% H&M legacy got replaced by the 22% ST heal and 16.5% AoE Heal traceries, which arent enough compensation for the healing lost.
    6. Cry of the Chorus has lost 34.8% of its Outgoing Healing Effect Modifier due to the removal of the H&M skills legacy.



    7. The new tracery for Anthem of Composure doesnt apply the +33% Tactical Mitigation Buff.
    8. The new tracery for Anthem of War is now 2.2% damage boost instead of 5.5% and 5% from live. That's a further nerf on these anthems in the last few months.



    9. Some legacies have been unbundled creating more legacies than before. This leads the Minstrel to have 14 must-have/important legacies for 12 slots, making it almost impossible to include the Anthem of Composure & War class traceries.

    Suggestions:
    1. Buff minstrel base heal skills and/or the AoE and ST healing traceries to compensate for the H&M legacy removal.
    2. Buff Cry of the Chorus base skill or the new CotC cooldown class tracery to include a 34.8% OGH boost.
    3. Either consolidate some of the healing class traceries or combine ALL the anthem class traceries, so we can have them all slotted. (it is unfair that the minstrel and maybe a handful of other classes/specs have to make any important choices, when most classes can fit all their must have class traceries for one or even two trait lines in 2 LIs)

    DPS specialization:
    1. Several of our dps legacies have been nerfed in BR compared to live, some of them are compensated via the ST and AoE dmg WoP traceries, but Minor Ballad and Piercing Cry (two of our most important dps skills) are not compensated.
    2. Our Light Damage boosts from our Class Item LI on live that can be up to 74.6% ( 69.6% from Legacy + 5% from LI title) is replaced by a 25% light dmg boost from using 2 OGH traceries... This is a 50% dmg nerf on all our damage skills.



    3. Timless Echoes of Battle skill is only affected by the DoT tracery and not by light damage, despite doing light damage.

    Suggestions:
    Increase the base damage of the damage skills to compensate for the 50% light damage loss, or give us back the light damage legacy.

    So far both minstrel heals and dps is breaking even because we are getting +600 tactical damage and healing ratings from the new LIs which are meant to be scaled for lvl140. If these numbers dont scale further when we hit lvl140, the state of the minstrel class will be catastrophic.

    Live Server DPS parse: ~183k
    Bullroarer Beta 3 DPS parse: ~ Dummy Warg says, 'Grrrrr... you dealt me a total of 187,952.844 damage each second over the course of our battle.



    Last edited by Caladria-Gr; Sep 23 2021 at 01:05 PM. Reason: updated for Beta 3 info

  2. #2
    i'm just gonna bump this
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  3. #3
    Now, not saying I'm bumping, but I agree with everything Cala put 100%

    This was from the second beta, where the same bugs were reported in the first as well... D:
    Gilrain - World Draigoch First
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    +Celestrata tells you 'You are by far the best mini I've seen out of any server, Congrats on world first!'
    Worlds Only Abyss T2 6 Man - Minstrel.

  4. #4
    So far my experience on BR is that for minstrel dps I am better off with my old main hand LI and the new class item with 6 dps traceries. Losing the additional TDR on the new main hand is more than made up by the size of the old legacy boosts and doubling down on dps legacies in the class item. I will have to have a different set just like with armor and traits for healing. Beorning healers also lost their global heal % boost and even that legacy on their old class item is now 0%. Not sure what all the nerfs/bugs on healing are for.

  5. #5
    I have two "main" characters, hunter and MINI. Agree with this post, and I am NOT HAPPY. Thousands of other minstrels won't be either if you go live with these mistakes.
    Linden Starfall, Leader of Mithril Crowns of Elendilmir and Arkenstone

  6. #6
    I was just starting to warm up to the idea of the new LI system, until I read this thread. These issue must be resolved. Thank you for being so thorough, Caladria.

  7. #7
    I would much rather see an LI revamped get pushed back until it is ready rather than it put a sour taste in people's mouths.
    This time of year there are far too many games for people to jump ship to with being dishearten with a rushed LI revamp. The game is already suffering somewhat with population right now, take the time to get this right, please.
    Releasing content and changes that aren't ready for live carries too many risks. LOTRO players will be patient if careful consideration is taken in this huge change.
    Azulia | Azaa | Azotic | Azabella | Azilia | Izarah
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  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyMountains View Post
    I would much rather see an LI revamped get pushed back until it is ready rather than it put a sour taste in people's mouths.
    This time of year there are far too many games for people to jump ship to with being dishearten with a rushed LI revamp. The game is already suffering somewhat with population right now, take the time to get this right, please.
    Releasing content and changes that aren't ready for live carries too many risks. LOTRO players will be patient if careful consideration is taken in this huge change.
    been here for 13+ years....kinda got used to "sour" by now.....
    dont worry the dev's are working on a fix that fixes the fix that fixed the fix that was fixing the fix....

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hetweith View Post
    been here for 13+ years....kinda got used to "sour" by now.....
    Ditto...
    Home base: Gladden - Fluff server: Shadowfax
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  10. #10
    All but one of the above issues remain in Beta 3 at least regarding healing and anthems. Only Fellowship Heart's initial heal not being buffed by the WoP traceries. Now it is affected by the AoE heal tracery!

    Small Victory..

    I will be testing damage numbers at some point tomorrow, however nothing seems to have been changed in that regard.

    Updating the main post.
    Last edited by Caladria-Gr; Sep 22 2021 at 06:34 PM.

  11. #11
    Another pointless and inexplicable change is the removal of the essence slot in minstrel's lvl105 instrument from Throne. Other classes still have the essence slots on their throne gear on BR.



    Also added parse numbers from Live and BR Beta 3 on main post.
    Last edited by Caladria-Gr; Sep 23 2021 at 01:06 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr View Post
    Another pointless and inexplicable change is the removal of the essence slot in minstrel's lvl105 instrument from Throne. Other classes still have the essence slots on their throne gear on BR.



    Also added parse numbers from Live and BR Beta 3 on main post.
    WAIT WHAT?!?! WHY?!?!?!

    I hope they at least don't decide to go back and remove the essence slots on the ones people have already bartered for.
    Ughh...another one of those mad, hungry hobbits with a sword...

    Mydiel Pineapple 130 LM The Pirate Alliance Landroval

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by cbfan14 View Post
    WAIT WHAT?!?! WHY?!?!?!

    I hope they at least don't decide to go back and remove the essence slots on the ones people have already bartered for.
    thats an item copied from Live so they have.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr View Post
    thats an item copied from Live so they have.
    *sigh* I hope this is only a bug and gets reverted.
    Ughh...another one of those mad, hungry hobbits with a sword...

    Mydiel Pineapple 130 LM The Pirate Alliance Landroval

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr View Post
    Another pointless and inexplicable change is the removal of the essence slot in minstrel's lvl105 instrument from Throne. Other classes still have the essence slots on their throne gear on BR.



    Also added parse numbers from Live and BR Beta 3 on main post.
    Your parse numbers proof that mini dps has got buff. Si I do not understand what is the problem. I think that is exactly what the aim is, no major difference in dps compared to imbued LI's, but major buff to dps rating of weapons. Weapons dps rating has caused lot of issues with balance in the past and 1st aid was done with dps and heal rating runes.

    Now when Gundabad goes live, at least mini dps should scale fine.

  16. #16
    This is going to be a colossal, feking mess!
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK - Arkenstone
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler - Arkenstone
    Casithir - Rank 10 RK - Evernight

  17. #17
    Mini DPS is irrelevant in end game raiding, we need our heals and buffs to be usefull at all.

    as the only dedicated healing class, we dont really have a DPS or Tank secondary role.

    Please dont make The Minstrel suck.

    I dont have a good feeling about this launch.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    as the only dedicated healing class, we dont really have a DPS or Tank secondary role.
    Quick reminder that there is no such thing as a "dedicated healing class" and primary/secondary roles are not actual things that exist within the game.

    Minstrel has 3 specs, a heal spec, a DPS spec, and a group support spec. All 3 specs should absolutely be competitive in their given roles.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by JiiPee View Post
    Your parse numbers proof that mini dps has got buff. Si I do not understand what is the problem. I think that is exactly what the aim is, no major difference in dps compared to imbued LI's, but major buff to dps rating of weapons. Weapons dps rating has caused lot of issues with balance in the past and 1st aid was done with dps and heal rating runes.

    Now when Gundabad goes live, at least mini dps should scale fine.
    So 3k difference is a buff to you? that's just slightly better crit rng or a quicker essence proc.. Warden's went from 290k to 550k dps in BR, that's a substantial buff. Hunters went from 250k to 320k+, that's a substantial buff.

    When certain classes double their dps, and you keep your previous dps that's technically a nerf.

    I am gonna underline here that i dont care for the mini to do these numbers, dps is a matter of solo QoL, nothing else.

    The main issue with dps and heal ratings is that SSG hasnt specified whether those ratings available on BR are lvl130 or are the intended numbers for lvl140 cap, since the 600 rating jump is consistent with a 10lvl increase from our current live LIs.

    If the case is that we have been testing with lvl140 ratings and we are barely achieving parity with live numbers, things are way gloomier and way more serious for both our heal and dps specs.

    Given the fact that all dps ratings of the new system LIs is completely broken for lower level caps (instance drops actually have better dps ratings for lower levels), I am more certain that these "boosted" ratings are indeed the lvl140 intended ratings and not lvl130.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr View Post
    So 3k difference is a buff to you? that's just slightly better crit rng or a quicker essence proc.. Warden's went from 290k to 550k dps in BR, that's a substantial buff. Hunters went from 250k to 320k+, that's a substantial buff.

    When certain classes double their dps, and you keep your previous dps that's technically a nerf.
    You get that the Warden/Hunter needs some hefty nerfs, right? Goal so far seems to be for DPS to remain about the same, the one class they've actually been tuning in response to these changes is Champion and that has just reached the point where it does around the same damage with the new LI system as it did with the old system (+ weapon swapping).

    I don't get why you think you have level 140 ratings on this stuff either, the reforging takes player level into account so if you've reforged the weapon at 130...you have the 130 damage rating. It's definitely an increase over our live LI's but then our live LI's don't scale correctly so that's hardly a surprise.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    You get that the Warden/Hunter needs some hefty nerfs, right? Goal so far seems to be for DPS to remain about the same, the one class they've actually been tuning in response to these changes is Champion and that has just reached the point where it does around the same damage with the new LI system as it did with the old system (+ weapon swapping).

    I don't get why you think you have level 140 ratings on this stuff either, the reforging takes player level into account so if you've reforged the weapon at 130...you have the 130 damage rating. It's definitely an increase over our live LI's but then our live LI's don't scale correctly so that's hardly a surprise.
    I am uncertain whether these ratings are lvl130, cause as i stated above the whole system seems rushed, unfinished and generally problematic. For example, the reforging for lower levels is atm unbalanced on the low side, where instance dropped weapons give u more damage than an on level LI. Even traceries for in between levels, which are confirmed that will exist, arent there.

    Also SSG has a tendency not to care about old content or balancing them. For them lvl130 is already old content, it has been so since they released FOKD, which they dindt continue to bugfix, cause Gundabad. So i wouldnt be surprised if the rating, given its size boost, isnt for 130lvl.

    Also all the traceries we have are max lvl140.

    So i wouldnt put it past them to have just given us lvl140 items to play with, hoping we wouldnt notice, like they did about bridles or LI conversion (for which they hastily did an 180 and changed their tune when they saw the backlash).

    Warden's dps always relied on the weapon's dmg and not its legacies, that was the reason Warden's didnt even use LIs a year ago. Hunter's are boosted cause the new system gives them access to an extra 25% fire dmg among other things. All these prove that they are changing stuff with no real understanding of what they are doing.

    I certainly cant be sure if they plan to nerf hunters or wardens, I am not sure they know themselves. Regardless, i didnt ask for a boost in mini dps, i simply refuted that guy's statement that mini dps got buffed.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr View Post
    I am uncertain whether these ratings are lvl130, cause as i stated above the whole system seems rushed, unfinished and generally problematic. For example, the reforging for lower levels is atm unbalanced on the low side, where instance dropped weapons give u more damage than an on level LI. Even traceries for in between levels, which are confirmed that will exist, arent there.

    Also SSG has a tendency not to care about old content or balancing them. For them lvl130 is already old content, it has been so since they released FOKD, which they dindt continue to bugfix, cause Gundabad. So i wouldnt be surprised if the rating, given its size boost, isnt for 130lvl.
    Instance dropped weapons are not stronger than the new LI system, they aren't even stronger than the old LI system. There's a bunch of videos over on youtube of a guy showing that classes are notably buffed at low levels using the new LI's:

    FoKD also received quite a few bug fixes over several patches since release. It's hardly bug free but then nothing is, they still put in a fair amount of effort to address the problems that popped up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr View Post
    Also all the traceries we have are max lvl140.

    So i wouldnt put it past them to have just given us lvl140 items to play with, hoping we wouldnt notice, like they did about bridles or LI conversion (for which they hastily did an 180 and changed their tune when they saw the backlash).
    Wouldn't matter if they did, only thing that level does is scale the secondary stats on the traceries. Doesn't influence the % stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caladria-Gr View Post
    Warden's dps always relied on the weapon's dmg and not its legacies, that was the reason Warden's didnt even use LIs a year ago. Hunter's are boosted cause the new system gives them access to an extra 25% fire dmg among other things. All these prove that they are changing stuff with no real understanding of what they are doing.

    I certainly cant be sure if they plan to nerf hunters or wardens, I am not sure they know themselves. Regardless, i didnt ask for a boost in mini dps, i simply refuted that guy's statement that mini dps got buffed.
    You incorrectly refuted the guy's statement based on your own assumptions rather than any actual information.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  23. #23
    dont tell me Minstrel DPS is viable in end game raids. and dont tell me that we are great off tanks.

    Its healing and buffing, if we are no good at that, then Minstrels are useless in end game.

    Dont be a fanboi, low level dps on landscape NPC's is irrelevant.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  24. #24
    Everybody, calm down. The numbers we're seeing on the test server probably aren't the final numbers we'll see. In fact, we'll probably keep seeing adjustments to the system well after it goes live. They've already said as much. You know how they say that no plan survives contact with the enemy? Well, no update survives contact with the live servers. So expect things to be in flux for everybody for at least the next year.

    And yes, Minstrels need to be effective healers in raids. That's kinda our thing. There has never, ever been parity between the various classes for various roles. Maybe there should be, but until there is, we need our heals for group content. I don't want to see a repeat of what we went though on launch day for Moria. So, yes, I want my solo DPS to be viable, too.

  25. #25
    Caladria, I dont want to go much off-topic, but it really surprised me to see you posting about mini dps parsing 183k on Live. You get that on a 3 min parse hitting the housing dummy? Cause Ive been gearing and playing mini dps and hitting 130-140k is the best I can achieve. Any way I can get in contact to check what youre doing to hit those numbers?

 

 
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