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  1. #1

    Brawler race aviablity

    I believe that the brawler should only be either man or dwarf(stoutaxe included), and maybe hobbits but not to elves or high elves. This is not due to any gameplay issues but rather lore issues. I may be wrong but i dont believe any elf would lower themselves to "brawling" as they are too dignifed. The would see "brawling" as inelegant, too unrefined, too uncivilised.

  2. #2
    totally agree
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    Founder of the kinship "Beschützer des Lichtes" Server Belegaer Beschützer des Lichtes
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  3. #3
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    After playing around with each of them here's how I feel:

    Man - Yes
    Class is based on Helm Hammerhand, obviously should be an option. People from Bree and Rohan seem more likely to be rough and tumblers than Gondor or Dale, but since that distinction doesn't really exist in the game it's fine. The combat looks really smooth and natural on them even if I have doubts about how long a Man would be able to swing those battle gauntlets around for.

    Dwarves - Yes
    A very well-suited choice, already having a reputation as a hardy folk that can withstand tougher blows than other races. They're pretty much the only ones who look believable when Mighty Upheaval does the ground stun. They look really good in the armour too.

    Stout-Axes - Hell Yes
    Arguably even better-suited than regular Longbeards given their rough background. Also look especially good in the armour because they're the best player models currently in the game. If you told me Stout-Axes invented the battle gauntlets, I would believe you.

    High Elves - Hell No
    Look completely wrong. Extremely unnatural and uncomfortable even just standing there straight up in the air, let alone while actually in combat where they resemble someone cosplaying at an anime convention. If Burgling is beneath them, so is Brawling.

    Elves - Maybe
    Similarly silly, especially in the larger gauntlet models that look more like over-sized mittens on them. But there is something about how much leaner they look that suits the punching animations well without totally venturing into goofy territory. I guess if I really think about it I can imagine rowdy Mirkwood Elves getting tipsy enough on Dorwinion wine to go out wrestling spiders.

    Hobbits - Patience
    Extremely ridiculous and ridiculously adorable. They look like they stole the High Elves' cosplay to wear out on Halloween. I have no doubt these would be one of the most popular choices especially since hobbits are one of the most limited on classes, but I think we should wait on River Hobbits for this combo. They're the wilder cousins you'd totally expect to be more proficient with their hands than a weapon and it's a better option for a race exclusive than the other classes (LM, RK, Cappy, Champ).


  4. #4
    a very good summary, thanks.
    Good idea to wait for River-Hobbits for the Brawler and hobbit combination.

    What do you think about beorninger?
    --------------------
    Founder of the kinship "Beschützer des Lichtes" Server Belegaer Beschützer des Lichtes
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  5. #5
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    Yep, as I had posted in my own thread I really don't think brawler is suitable for either of the elves, but *especially* the high elf. Hobbits are silly as can be in this class, but only a bit more so than they already are with Guardian and Warden. So from a gameplay perspective of them needing more up front melee classes, ok, it's a bit more tolerable even if I wouldn't have added them for brawlers myself. High elves though should get a big veto. Just the character creation screen for a high elf brawler looks super weird and out of place.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arantha View Post
    What do you think about beorninger?
    That wouldn't work with the way they're implemented, but in an alternate reality yeah I could imagine the Beorning race having Brawlers, Guardians, Minstrels, Hunters, and Lore-Masters. Maybe Champions. But I like the way they are. No one in Middle Earth can do what Beornings can do.


  7. #7
    True, on a technical point of view that makes no sense.
    --------------------
    Founder of the kinship "Beschützer des Lichtes" Server Belegaer Beschützer des Lichtes
    Founder of the german newspaper for Lotro and Tolkien Funkenflug

  8. #8
    I guess you do not realise that Elves, especially High Elves, are physically superior to other races in Middle Earth. They are stronger, taller, studier then any man or dwarf. A typical High Elf warrior is a heavy armored fighter with a shiled and spear or sword. And they are not so dignified as many people believe. They do things with style and the concept of beauty is important to them, but elves can be very "savage" and brute.

    That being said, I dislike the idea of Brawler in general. It really looks out of place here. And I do agree that combat animation of an elf brawler looks hilarious.

    P.S. Keep your hands off Hobbits!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomex View Post
    High Elves - Hell No
    Look completely wrong. Extremely unnatural and uncomfortable even just standing there straight up in the air, let alone while actually in combat where they resemble someone cosplaying at an anime convention. If Burgling is beneath them, so is Brawling.
    What's funny is I actually think one would be able to make a better case for high elf burglars than high elf brawlers. I don't think that they should be either one, but if I was going to make a case for high elf burglars I would certainly be able to make points about their light-footedness, skilled bladework, wit for riddles, etc. Not to mention you could make a reference to Maedhros and Maglor sneaking in and stealing the silmarils (though they did get caught to be fair, just let go). It may not be the strongest case ever, but there is at least one that could be made if somebody really wanted to push it.

    For brawler there just isn't much of a case to be made anywhere for elves. I've seen a few posts here and there refer to Finrod, but him wrestling and biting a werewolf in a last stand effort to save Beren is pretty unrelated. Especially since in two conflicts prior he fights with songs of power (minstrel) and before that with sword and bow when ambushing orcs (champ/hunter). A brawler he certainly was not.

    Not to mention it's not exactly like elves or high elves are hurting for available classes. Hobbits, while silly, at least can make the case that they are fairly limited on what they can play.

  10. #10
    Colcalad from the Funkenflug (german newspaper) wrote a comment. His opinion is, that the brawler is a really good work from SSG, some things have to be done. The availability should be restricted to men and dwarves. Never ever does the brawler fit to elves, and mostly not to hobbits. The comment is in german and quite long.

    https://funkenflug.ag/mit-blossen-faeusten/
    --------------------
    Founder of the kinship "Beschützer des Lichtes" Server Belegaer Beschützer des Lichtes
    Founder of the german newspaper for Lotro and Tolkien Funkenflug

  11. #11
    SSG isn't allowed to state it outright, but I suspect that much of the brawler class is also based on Tulkas of the Valar. He's described as wielding only his fists, as being very strong, as laughing in battle and taunting Melkor. No doubt there could have been High Elves that venerated Tulkas, and lo and behold, the brawler class gets some light damage bonuses and skills, just like High Elves do. I could make an argument that High Elves could be just as suitable for the class as dwarves or men.

    The idea of hobbit brawlers really does crack me up though. That said, I would go for Stout-axe myself.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    SSG isn't allowed to state it outright, but I suspect that much of the brawler class is also based on Tulkas of the Valar. He's described as wielding only his fists, as being very strong, as laughing in battle and taunting Melkor. No doubt there could have been High Elves that venerated Tulkas, and lo and behold, the brawler class gets some light damage bonuses and skills, just like High Elves do. I could make an argument that High Elves could be just as suitable for the class as dwarves or men.

    The idea of hobbit brawlers really does crack me up though. That said, I would go for Stout-axe myself.
    possible, correct, but really pulled by the hair.

    Tolkiens concept of elves and highelves is a different from the valars and b not suitable to a brawler as an elve, as we normal fight in the game. This is not an assasin creed or so...
    --------------------
    Founder of the kinship "Beschützer des Lichtes" Server Belegaer Beschützer des Lichtes
    Founder of the german newspaper for Lotro and Tolkien Funkenflug

  13. #13
    I agree that Elf and High Elf Brawlers don't really look or feel right, but I feel like the cat's out of the bag at this point. They've put in some obvious hard work into adapting the class animations for each race already. I doubt they'd be willing to cancel their plans for elven Brawlers at this late stage. Plus now that they've been publicly playable on the test server, there are definitely going to be people who are going to be very disappointed if plans for elven Brawlers are canceled.

    There's only so much time and effort that can go into the creation of class animations, and I would have personally preferred that the energy going into making the Brawler playable by every race would have instead gone into increasing the quality or number of animations for a more trimmed-down list of playable races. But on the flip side, I'm sure there are plenty of diehard elf players out there who will be very happy about the fact that their two races will continue to have the ability to play any class in the game except for Burglar.

  14. #14
    I said it elsewhere before will say it here, I have to agree that It doesn't fit the elf race at all to me, they shouldn't be a brawler, however I'm fine with Hobbits though if stretching the lore a lot, just cause Hobbits don't get much to play, so man, dwarf and Hobbit would be a enough fun, but its highly unlikely anything will change though.
    Pontin Level 130 Hobbit Burglar Leader of Second Breakfast Crickhollow Server.
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    Taken many Screenshots of Middle-earth, Also a Moderator of the LotRO Community Discord server

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Treadstone87 View Post
    I agree that Elf and High Elf Brawlers don't really look or feel right, but I feel like the cat's out of the bag at this point. They've put in some obvious hard work into adapting the class animations for each race already. I doubt they'd be willing to cancel their plans for elven Brawlers at this late stage. Plus now that they've been publicly playable on the test server, there are definitely going to be people who are going to be very disappointed if plans for elven Brawlers are canceled.

    There's only so much time and effort that can go into the creation of class animations, and I would have personally preferred that the energy going into making the Brawler playable by every race would have instead gone into increasing the quality or number of animations for a more trimmed-down list of playable races. But on the flip side, I'm sure there are plenty of diehard elf players out there who will be very happy about the fact that their two races will continue to have the ability to play any class in the game except for Burglar.
    Yeah, I'm one of these. Brawler pretty much busts the lore already, but I really like playing Elves in battle, and I found the Elf Brawler concept just hilarious to play. They just are funner to watch, at least to me. So since they are going this route, they probably should keep it as it is at this point. Palantir was the place to make those decisions, not Bullroarer.

    I'd also say though that......... strictly speaking, Elves shouldn't be a class if we wanted strict lore. Tolkien kept most of the Elves, except for Legolas, away up north in their own lands and fighting their own battles. Just the very concept of my High Elf [name any class] fighting at Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith / Pelennor or Black Gate already puts Lore to the sidelines, as it's basically putting someone like Glorfindel into those situations.

    So when I take my High Elf Champ up atop Minas Morgul, with the shing-shing, and I compare that to my experience playing a High Elf Brawler in War of the Three Peaks on BR, I truly don't feel that much of a difference between them, whether it's swords or battle gauntlets. BOTH feel more like Comic / MCU-style Superheroes than Tolkien-esque to me at this point. So, might as well have fun with it.

    Cheers!
    Phantion no longer has a character named Phantion in-game. He transferred to Landroval.

    .

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Treadstone87 View Post
    I agree that Elf and High Elf Brawlers don't really look or feel right, but I feel like the cat's out of the bag at this point. They've put in some obvious hard work into adapting the class animations for each race already. I doubt they'd be willing to cancel their plans for elven Brawlers at this late stage. Plus now that they've been publicly playable on the test server, there are definitely going to be people who are going to be very disappointed if plans for elven Brawlers are canceled.

    There's only so much time and effort that can go into the creation of class animations, and I would have personally preferred that the energy going into making the Brawler playable by every race would have instead gone into increasing the quality or number of animations for a more trimmed-down list of playable races. But on the flip side, I'm sure there are plenty of diehard elf players out there who will be very happy about the fact that their two races will continue to have the ability to play any class in the game except for Burglar.
    If the brawler is playable for Elves and Highelves they will also disappoint a lot of players.
    --------------------
    Founder of the kinship "Beschützer des Lichtes" Server Belegaer Beschützer des Lichtes
    Founder of the german newspaper for Lotro and Tolkien Funkenflug

  17. #17
    I hope ssg doesn’t get spooked by an anti-hobbit sectarian group and fulfill what was promised by allowing class for every race per fabor if a developer can confirm the race

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Treadstone87 View Post
    I agree that Elf and High Elf Brawlers don't really look or feel right, but I feel like the cat's out of the bag at this point. They've put in some obvious hard work into adapting the class animations for each race already. I doubt they'd be willing to cancel their plans for elven Brawlers at this late stage. Plus now that they've been publicly playable on the test server, there are definitely going to be people who are going to be very disappointed if plans for elven Brawlers are canceled.
    But you have equally disappointed players here as well, that there will be elven brawlers. Nothing will change though, but gotta voice our opinions what we think.
    Last edited by Pontin_Finnberry; Sep 12 2021 at 05:41 PM. Reason: corrections
    Pontin Level 130 Hobbit Burglar Leader of Second Breakfast Crickhollow Server.
    Alts: Belladonea Hobbit Minstrel, Unnari Dwarf Guardian, Jorunn Man Captain, Anemonellie Hobbit Guardian. Laurelin Server, Edwell Man Hunter.



    Taken many Screenshots of Middle-earth, Also a Moderator of the LotRO Community Discord server

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry View Post
    But you have equally disappointed players here as well, that will be elven brawlers. Nothing will change though, but gotta voice our opinions what we think.
    Sure- and I respect your opinion

    ---

    To the thread in general:

    At the end of the day though, it's an argument between:

    Camp A- I want to do what I want to with my own time on the new class that's coming to the game, including on Elves / High Elves, which happen to be my favorite race to play. That "my own time" could include countless hours of solo play.

    Camp B- I don't want to be forced to look at other players playing something that isn't lore worthy, from grouping to landscape to Vaults / AH. I sympathize with this view: and this is where I'd still be if I didn't know the class is inevitable.

    So the logic is basically an argument between a license to play and a restriction on others' play time.

    Human logic and basic psychology dictates the old World War II adage: "How are you going to make them go back on the farm once they've seen Paris?"

    If this were Palantir, maybe there'd be some hope. But now that we're at BR: too late, I'm afraid. The time for them to have listened to our feedback about the Brawler class was immediately after the class leaked around War of the Three Peaks. They have had plenty of time and plenty of negative feedback about the class to reconsider. They have decided to go with it anyway after a tidal wave of initial player backlash. It reminds me of the fiasco of trait trees.

    This combined with the "LI Revamp" could prove very disastrous for a longer-term audience of LOTRO gamers. We have yet to observe what the total fallout will be.

    So, I'm not actually defending "Elf" or "High Elf" Brawlers in themselves and so on, and certainly not lore-wise. But what I am saying is that, at this point, players have seen the class and who has access to it, and players really only have a choice between coping with it, indifference, or deciding it's not worth it anymore.

    I bet the same players who are disappointed that the class is even coming to exist in-game when it doesn't fit Middle-earth often overlap with those who are equally disappointed that Elves / High Elves can play it. So, already SSG knows they basically can't persuade folks in that camp to "like the class" either way. SSG then has to avoid alienating players who are warming up to the Brawler or who really want to play it. If Anime fans / folks who play more Anime-style MMOs are their target audience for the Brawler, and not so much us Lore folks, then the worst move they could possibly make would be to restrict the class away from Elves and High Elves.

    Why? Because: LOTRO's original Elves, and then the High Elves, happen to have Anime-style designs. This is most evident in the hair styles. Many folks could make their Elf hair look like Sasuke or Naruto even though the Elves themselves are from a European-inspired mythology; they found a middle ground with Elves and High Elves to reach a diversity of player tastes. So, taking the most Anime-looking characters and barring the Anime-inspired class from playing them just wouldn't make sense from SSG's side of things. It would impact their target audience for the class negatively. They literally have zero incentive to change their plans at this point because, well, this is what upper management wants them to do- and they obviously didn't include us in their audience.

    These aren't hard-line categories either; I happen to enjoy Anime, the MCU, the LOTR movies, the LOTR games, and also the LOTR books, and I also am very clear-eyed on how each of these are their own thing. LOTRO was never LOTR. LOTR = the books.

    I also am an active close-reader of the books; so I'm very keen on what's possible within them and what's not possible. My Champ slaying countless sorcerers atop Minas Morgul is not possible in Tolkien- nor is my LM shocking Wargs with lightning storms, my RK confronting Saruman, my Mini bursting light on Pelennor Fields, my Cappy storming Barad-dur's ruins, etc. I already know the game broke the lore already in many instances to make it more engaging for players.

    I still have hope that at least world-building and quest / game-text-lore are still mostly following the books, I'm not quite going to leave LOTRO over the Brawler's existence. But I do want to prioritize my ability to have fun as a player now, if only to "cope," since "lore" is pretty dodgy at best in-game right now - and has been so, I'd argue, since the One Ring went into the volcano. This is the newest Lhaereth, Borangos, Orc Gladiator Arena, storming Minas Morgul, Shelob Raid, Two-Headed Troll, Hob-goblin, and Viznak in my view: just another thing Tolkien would have never imagined.

    Even still, for me, that fun is not playing some Man or Dwarf playing Rocky Balboa. Not really my taste, even though its the archetype for a class like this. It's my Sindarin High Elf who refused to use a sword on matter of principle because Feanor invented swords and did the Kinslayings- not as a matter of believable lore but as a "What If?" tale for the sheer hilarity of it. In fact, an alternative universe where a High Elf Brawler punches the fire out of Feanor is giving me as much good humor as a Quentin Tarentino movie- and you can bet there were plenty of Sindar after the fall of Doriath and Sirion who would have LOVED the chance to get their hands on Feanor and his sons for what they did in "The Silmarillion."

    So, I'll agree to disagree and again I respect your view This is really only my way of coping with this whole situation and how out of line with the lore it is. If we are going to have Hobbit Brawlers running around like "Bugs Bunny" or some very cute version of "Mickey Mouse" taking on Mumakil, frankly, Elves / High Elves trying to punch the daylights out of Black Numenoreans is - slightly - less lore-hideous to me than that

    In short: SSG, if you are going to break the lore in this way, then by all means go all the way; quoth Emperor Palpatine: "DEW IT!" ; quoth Grand Moff Tarkin: "You may fire when ready." Have fun destroying Alderaan... er... Middle-earth. I hope the game survives it- and that you'll return to far more lore-friendly content in the future. My only response that this is happening is just sheer laughter anyway. I'm laughing as hard as Tulkas- since otherwise, I'd cry- hehehehe That's my attitude - I can choose to be miserable about it or have fun with it as a kind of joke. I already know I'll receive more for my entertainment value from the latter of those two options. To each their own

    For lore and my desire for it, I honestly want to read more now. If anything, I should thank the Devs for this; it's pushing me in the direction to want to close-read the books even more and the surrounding manuscript material, to enjoy Tolkien more for his own sake rather than through some other medium that really is farther away from the books. In fact, let me just urge everyone to do that. Want the real Tolkien? Try some reading; you won't be sorry that you did so.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Phantion; Sep 12 2021 at 05:47 PM.
    Phantion no longer has a character named Phantion in-game. He transferred to Landroval.

    .

  20. #20
    I just wanted to remind that IMHO the brawler should be limited to some races. The concept of races in lotro is very clear and to me it makes no sense to change the 14 year old concept, that not every race and class can be combined. It would be really sad, if SSG cancel this. The lore was till today a guideline, more or less. Why not for longer. Point of view to the amazon series and the upcoming investments into lotro, could be a disadvantage to change this strategy.
    Thanks for all discussions and decisions, You are doing a great work
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  21. #21
    Are there any major diferrences between races in terms of speed of animations ? (like with champs its better be HE than dwarf).

    Commander Liliam - the Warden
    Evernight

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gseedstrike View Post
    I believe that the brawler should only be either man or dwarf(stoutaxe included), and maybe hobbits but not to elves or high elves. This is not due to any gameplay issues but rather lore issues. I may be wrong but i dont believe any elf would lower themselves to "brawling" as they are too dignifed. The would see "brawling" as inelegant, too unrefined, too uncivilised.
    We know that High Elves at least are capable of atrocities, and in the example of individual Elves, like Eöl, they were more than capable of nastiness and pre-meditated murder. Not to mention his punishment handed down from the king - thrown to his death off a cliff - is not exactly civilised.
    To say they are above hand to hand combat or the noble art of boxing, and will only cut down their opponents with a blade... I don't really buy it.
    I don't think it's hard to imagine the soldiers of any race training like that, or that some might excel at it, if only to prepare for the scenario where they have been disarmed.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirnir View Post
    if only to prepare for the scenario where they have been disarmed.
    There's a difference, though, between preparing for an emergency situation and making it your way of life.

    Very anti elf brawlers here. Just casting my vote, so to speak.

  24. #24
    Sorry, if this is against the opinion of many here on this thread, but I am definitely looking forward to playing a high-elf brawler. Just the coolest combination I can think of, and I agree with someone who posted above that high-elves would very well be able to fight with their hands. I see the brawler not as someone who would get into a tavern fight while being drunk (actually I could imagine that with a dwarf), but as a weaponless battle artist which makes it fit with high-elves very well IMO. I saw the many different skills of the class here on Bullroarer. I tested it with a stout-axe dwarf, but the longer I played it, the more I got the impression that on live, I will definitely want him to be a high-elf.
    Last edited by Gildoriel; Sep 22 2021 at 11:06 AM.
    There's some good in this world, and it is worth fighting for.

  25. #25
    Sadly it seems they've experienced a shift in mindset and are saying screw it, everything can be a Brawler. MoL has resorted to citing Sam wanting to punch another hobbit as justification for the hobbit Brawler, which is such a stretch that it means bascially everything else is on the table except the Beorning, which I'm sure they would've done if it weren't a technical headache.

    If they wanted to add another "base" class that can be any race like Guardian, Hunter, and Minstrel, I'm sure they could've come up with one. Instead the Brawler's being thrust into that role by what I can only guess is a combination of external performance pressures and internal apathy. Very sad.

 

 
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