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  1. #1

    Angry The trainwreck that is the champion class

    Let's start off with this gem from +Cordovan and +Raninia. https://clips.twitch.tv/TangentialSi...nMP9BJlw_sy60O
    So you're telling me these changes made it through internal and palantir testing and got the nod? You need new testers on both!

    These new legacies...

    +5s Adamant/Invincible duration, 30.8% unbreakable damage -> +5.5s Adamant/Invincible duration, +55.8% ubreakable damage. // Cool, a buff, blue champ is still bad

    +34.8% Hamstring damage -> +38.5% Hamstring damage & +6.6s hamstring duration. // Cool, a buff for moors that just means no more swapping for that specifically.

    +5s Champion's horn Stun duration, -7300 pmit debuff -> +55% horn of gondor damage & +2.2%mitigation debuff. // What is the point in this nerf? Reducing champ's utility? Either make this accompanied by a buff to the horns to always be 10s or revert this. Horn of gondor isn't used as a dps skill anyway!

    +34.8% merciful strike damage -> 38.5% merciful strike damage. // standard scaling up of a legacy i guess, skill is still terrible.

    +34.8% Raging blade damage -> 38.5% raging blade damage. // standard scaling, no complaints here

    +52.2% Relentless/remorseless damage -> 38.5% Relentless/remorseless damage // Why have you nerfed this so drastically? just scale it like the others, champ is about to shafted when you remove weapon swapping...

    +52.2% bracing attack heal -> +55% bracing attack heal // standard scaling, skill heals far to little to make this legacy ever worthwhile however

    -20s Battle frenzy cooldown, +6300 physical mastery from battle frenzy -> -22s Battle frenzy cooldown // Kinda pointless buff to the cd but cool. mastery is no loss. Why do the lower levels of this legacy provide below 20s cd reduction? This is part of the problem with champs pre LIs currently. The class doesn't function without 10s CD Battle frenzy

    +52.2% Feral/savage strikes damage -> +55% Feral/savage strikes damage // Standard scaling, skill is still terrible for dpsing

    -5s Ferocious strikes cooldown, +34.8% damage -> -3.3s Ferocious strikes cooldown, + 38.5% ferocious strikes damage // Why on earth have you nerfed the cooldown? Make it 5s for all variations of this legacy, a nerf here is highly unnecessary. The damage scaling is fine

    +8700 Fight on critical rating -> +0.055% fight on melee critical chance // Is this a typo? what a worthless buff lol. useless before and after,

    +34.8% Fury of blades damage from fervour -> 38.5% fury of blades damage from fervour // Fine

    +11s Great cleave duration // Cool to get this off of the pre-imbued LIs.

    +34.8% devastating strike damage multiplier -> 38.5% devastating strike damage multiplier // standard increase, please fix the description though; make it match the brutal strikes damage increase text

    +52.2% blade wall damage -> +55% blade wall damage // Fine scaling

    +52.2% Brutal strikes damage -> 55% brutal strikes damage // Fine scaling

    -60s Dire need cooldown, +21.2% dire need power cost -> -60s Dire need cooldown, -22% dire need power cost // This might actually be a nerf with the reduction to power cost. Regardless, the skill is useless at current cap as is this legacy.

    -60s Ebbing ire cooldown, +5300 ebbing tactical mitigation -> -60s Ebbing ire cooldown, 16.5% ebbing tactical mitigation // Cool, a buff to an unused skill

    +34.8% exchange of blows melee damage -> 38.5% exchange of blows melee damage // fine scaling

    -30s Fear nothing cooldown, +6300 incoming healing rating -> -16.5s fear nothing cooldown, +11% incoming healing rating // This is already the worst removal skill in the game, why are you nerfing the cooldown like this?

    +34.8% riposte damage -> 38.5% riposte damage // fine scaling i guess

    +8700 rend armour reduction -> 2.2% rend mitigation reduction, 55% rend bleed damage // Changing it from a rating is a nerf to its mitigation reduction Will the bleed damage still affect deep strikes as the merged legacy "rend bleed damage" does?

    +8700 Sprint evade rating -> +33 Sprint duration, +5.5% sprint evade chance // pvp community might send death threats if this goes live lmao

    -15s sudden defence cooldown, +26.8% champion bubble magnitude ->-16.5s cooldown, +22% bubble mag // useless trait line but why nerf it? lmfao

    -50% Swift strike/swift blade power cost, 18% damage -> 38% swift strike/blade damage, -36.3% power cost // fine by me to trade power csot for more damage

    +52.2% wild attack damage -> +55% wild attack damage // fine scaling

    +174% critical damage multiplier -> gone // This legacy is unique to champions. The available to everyone version that gives ~20% does not make up for champions losing their most important damage legacy with 0 compensation. The fact that EVERY class has access to the crit chance and magntiude legacy means the gap created by this LI "rework" is even greater

    +87% rend bleed damage -> gone/merged with the rend mit debuff // The nerf to the bleed % is not needed, both bleeds it affects are terrible and if this fixes it to stop affecting deep strikes then lmfao more nerfs.

    +34.8% area of effect skill damage -> gone // another champ unqiue legacy gone with no compensation.

    -20% blade line AoE power cost, +13.2% AoE skill critical damage -> gone // another champ unqiue legacy gone with no compensation.

    I don't care that the true heroics and second wind legacies are gone.


    So you've removed a lot of the damage legacies and not made compensatory buffs. Making similar legacies (like the crit %, crit mag and just flat skill damage one) available to ALL classes DOES NOT compensate for nerfing a specific class, it just puts that class further behind. It makes sense that the crit mag legacy needs to go, it's going to be a nightmare to balance. BUT DON'T NERF THE CLASS INTO THE GROUND WHILE YOU DO THAT. Give the removed legacies back while you actually think about the balance of this class.

    I also don't understand why there are so many weaker versions of the legacies now; playing with non 9s fero and non 10s BF is not fun and leaves the class in the dust (even more than it is already) at lower levels/weaker gear

    TL;DR re-add the crit mag legacy, the aoe damage legacy and the aoe crit mag legacies.

    Can't wait for the absolute balance trainwreck that is to come with the removal of weapon swapping...
    Last edited by Nubja; Sep 08 2021 at 06:10 PM.

  2. #2
    Totally agree. Champ dps is ruined.

  3. #3
    every class ive seen so far has parsed nearly double champ, at the very least. Champ is garbage currently
    Lugbur

  4. #4
    Your first line says it all, this LI change getting past internal and palantir testing scares me, it really does. The lack of knowledge about the champ from SSG is astounding. I can’t wait for the removal of weapons swapping…….

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    3,348
    If anyone from SSG gets on Ghyn's Discord you can see how real players who understand the classes in this game feel about these changes. It's infuriating to see decisions made because of clueless posters on the forums complaining (i.e. weapon swapping getting disabled). Champs are already taking a massive DPS hit (and honestly a massive hit to their combat style actually being engaging) with the removal of weapon swapping. Instead of compensating for this the changes above look like Champs are taking even more of a hit.

    The running joke is that Champions drowned themselves in booze because these LI changes are so awful, dropped their weapons, and became the brawler.

    The sentiment by actual end game players right now is that Champs will likely be dead after the next update. I don't think that's exactly fair to jump to the conclusion so early, but from what we've seen so far it is very clear that champs are heading in that direction.

    It will not be acceptable if SSG does not seriously address champ issues. The goal of having at least 1 trait line for every class be viable is a low bar enough, we are at risk of having Champs have no useful trait lines.
    Servers: Treebeard | Arkenstone | Landroval
    Classes: Hunter | Champion | Loremaster | Warden | Beorning

  6. #6
    +1 to everything above. Champion is completely ruined if no further changes are made. Either HARD base damage buffs or reintroduce some legacies which got deleted. Additionally some of the legacies/traceries need to be adjusted, for examples take the ones which got mentioned above.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubja View Post
    +8700 rend armour reduction -> 2.2% rend mitigation reduction, 55% rend bleed damage // Changing it from a rating is a nerf to its mitigation reduction Will the bleed damage still affect deep strikes as the merged legacy "rend bleed damage" does?
    I'll debate this one.
    • On T5 mobs (base mitigation = ~50%) unaffected by any armor debuffs (no AC), this is a 1% mitigation buff (43.8% old vs 42.8% new).
    • On targets affected by the first 10s of AC, this is no change (already at negative mitigations).
    • On targets affected by the remaining 35s of AC, this is a 3.3% mitigation nerf (23% old vs 26.3% new).

    During that 35s of AC, you should also have Bee Swarm, Marked/Diminished Target, Penetrating Shot, Captain pet armor debuff, etc. In reality, the target should be at 0% mitigation for the 45s duration of Ancient Craft regardless of new/vs old rend. All this combined means that rend is actually buffed with these changes, when you look at the bigger picture.

    Plus, lets be honest, when level 140 rolls around and mobs have more base armor, the devs would probably have forgotten that rend was a flat rating modifier so it would be way less than the percentage modifier we're getting now.

    Thats just one legacy/tracer though, I agree with you on just about everything else.
    Last edited by laughatdo0m; Sep 08 2021 at 10:52 PM.

  8. #8
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    ...... Not really sure what to say here... Weapon swapping will kill champs agreed. Not tuning the class to compensate for crit mag going away also kills class agreed... However the LI change overall is not bad. Needs alot of work but the core idea opens up a ton of flexibility. We need some major changes to the actual new legacy numbers and need to bring back some legacies but to cry right now at a preview MONTHS ahead of release and doom and despair everything becasue champs are f'd is a little much. History shows us they dont make they changes we want so you got it there... but as long as champs get some skill rebalancing and crit mag back they would be good. By skill rebalancing I mean skills doing the same net damage 2-1h or a 2h... But yeah rip weapon swap. Sucks for other classes to use but was cool on champ.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Khluzainn View Post
    ...... Not really sure what to say here... Weapon swapping will kill champs agreed. Not tuning the class to compensate for crit mag going away also kills class agreed... However the LI change overall is not bad. Needs alot of work but the core idea opens up a ton of flexibility. We need some major changes to the actual new legacy numbers and need to bring back some legacies but to cry right now at a preview MONTHS ahead of release and doom and despair everything becasue champs are f'd is a little much. History shows us they dont make they changes we want so you got it there... but as long as champs get some skill rebalancing and crit mag back they would be good. By skill rebalancing I mean skills doing the same net damage 2-1h or a 2h... But yeah rip weapon swap. Sucks for other classes to use but was cool on champ.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubja View Post
    What? Meme is great but doesn’t fit thread at all… been on these forums since 07 bud.. will have to wait and see if champs get adjusted or not… they can definitely screw it up and have many times but to act like this whole direction is a disaster because one class got mostly overlooked is just dishonest. End of story

  11. #11
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    You guys are really suprised? They introducing new pay-to-have mele class and one of current classes needed to be destroyed to make space in raids and sales. I'm sure rebalancing champ will come when they put gundabad for lotro points. Same was with 130 and Remmo... Remeber where were champs and hunters in begining of this lvl cap? And about palantir "testers" - there are people there who don't know anything so they can't give any feedback.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TronGilrain View Post
    You guys are really suprised? They introducing new pay-to-have mele class and one of current classes needed to be destroyed to make space in raids and sales. I'm sure rebalancing champ will come when they put gundabad for lotro points. Same was with 130 and Remmo... Remeber where were champs and hunters in begining of this lvl cap? And about palantir "testers" - there are people there who don't know anything so they can't give any feedback.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...n-with-Raninia

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    you constantly launch content that favors some classes and excludes others
    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia
    As for instances that "favor some classes," yeah, that's totally true. That's not strictly an accident either. We don't feel that perfectly balanced instances for each class are generally that interesting, not too mention, extremely difficult to do.
    He then doubles down on the notion in the same thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Raninia
    I've been a progression raider and had to fight for my spot. I've experienced class balances that killed the spec I was playing and forced me to relearn my class or my role. I ended up levelling multiple alts to cap in order to have alternative ways of playing the content I wanted to get into, even if it wasn't the way I necessarily wanted to. I've done that, multiple times. I get the emotional impact of seeing someone else get something cool that boosts their DPS by 10% while I'm playing as well as I can, knowing that despite my best efforts, they're just gonna be better at my role than me, through no fault of my own.
    Good luck champs, and


  13. #13
    With all the aforementioned nerfs and absolutely nothing to look forward to, are you guys planning to adjust any of our currently useless skills? Bracing attack heals for the same amount as a single pulse of fight on. There's no good reason a melee class should have its only worthwhile snare (not including duel here, this is a crutch skill for otherwise poor design) on a 20s cool down. Currently attack durations make it so that red line doesn't have enough skills to really maximize fervor use since merciless strike is junk and feral strike only useful for corruption removal. Unless you're planning on removing crit multiplier and are damage and adding it to base class stats this is an atrocious nerf.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.



  14. #14
    After a look and play I feel the champ has yet again been let down (all covered above). It seems that we have been ignored/nurfed and poorly patched since HD. All we can hope for is some changes before going live if we are to remain viable for anything other than landscape and t1.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by laughatdo0m View Post
    I'll debate this one.
    • On T5 mobs (base mitigation = ~50%) unaffected by any armor debuffs (no AC), this is a 1% mitigation buff (43.8% old vs 42.8% new).
    • On targets affected by the first 10s of AC, this is no change (already at negative mitigations).
    • On targets affected by the remaining 35s of AC, this is a 3.3% mitigation nerf (23% old vs 26.3% new).

    During that 35s of AC, you should also have Bee Swarm, Marked/Diminished Target, Penetrating Shot, Captain pet armor debuff, etc. In reality, the target should be at 0% mitigation for the 45s duration of Ancient Craft regardless of new/vs old rend. All this combined means that rend is actually buffed with these changes, when you look at the bigger picture.

    Plus, lets be honest, when level 140 rolls around and mobs have more base armor, the devs would probably have forgotten that rend was a flat rating modifier so it would be way less than the percentage modifier we're getting now.

    Thats just one legacy/tracer though, I agree with you on just about everything else.
    Well that’s all well and good if it were true. Currently the new % based Rend Debuff is actually broken. The tooltip for it is currently at -.052% mitigation reduction. Yes that is .(0)52. I can’t even imagine how that number came up. I’m all for switching to percentage based systems rather than poorly scaled rating systems but yeah as it stands now, it’s completely broken.

    And as for the rest of the people here, I agree that it’s looking VERY bleak for Champ. I parsed for about an hour today in both Red and Yellow line. Red line DPS went down by about 60% and Yellow Line went down about 40%. That’s the number while weapon swapping the new LI’s. I even gave it a few tries without weapon swapping and the DPS loss was even more immense than that.
    Last edited by Fresuvi; Sep 08 2021 at 11:32 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fresuvi View Post
    Well that’s all well and good if it were true. Currently the new % based Rend Debuff is actually broken. The tooltip for it is currently at -.052% mitigation reduction. Yes that is .(0)52. I can’t even imagine how that number came up. I’m all for switching to percentage based systems rather than poorly scaled rating systems but yeah as it stands now, it’s completely broken.

    And as for the rest of the people here, I agree that it’s looking VERY bleak for Champ. I parsed for about an hour today in both Red and Yellow line. Red line DPS went down by about 60% and Yellow Line went down about 40%. That’s the number while weapon swapping the new LI’s. I even gave it a few tries without weapon swapping and the DPS loss was even more immense than that.
    Have you actually tested it? I was incorrect with what I had said. It is not 5% base with an extra 2.2%; its 3% base with an extra 2.2%. The 0.052 will be the same thing as 3% + 2.2% (and having tested on a dummy on bullroarer, that works correctly). With that in mind, this is a nerf even compared to live landscape rends so I entirely retract my previous argument. There wasn't even a silver lining in these champ changes

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by laughatdo0m View Post
    Have you actually tested it? I was incorrect with what I had said. It is not 5% base with an extra 2.2%; its 3% base with an extra 2.2%. The 0.052 will be the same thing as 3% + 2.2% (and having tested on a dummy on bullroarer, that works correctly). With that in mind, this is a nerf even compared to live landscape rends so I entirely retract my previous argument. There wasn't even a silver lining in these champ changes
    Yes I understand that is the intended way for it to work as a calculation in the coding for the skill. However, when it actually applies to target, it is reducing Mits by .052%. If something is a 5.2% mit reduction for any other class, it shows 5.2% in the actual tooltip. For example, Marked Target is 5% base mit reduction. It shows up as 5% not as .05%. Whoever wrote the code for it likely attempted to put it in multiplicatively but mit reductions are additive not multiplicative. I have tested it and Rend does not increase damage on a training dummy whatsoever.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fresuvi View Post
    And as for the rest of the people here, I agree that it’s looking VERY bleak for Champ. I parsed for about an hour today in both Red and Yellow line. Red line DPS went down by about 60% and Yellow Line went down about 40%. That’s the number while weapon swapping the new LI’s. I even gave it a few tries without weapon swapping and the DPS loss was even more immense than that.
    This is exactly why the acknowledgement that champs are heavily LI dependent on one of the Q&As meant nothing to me. There has always been a massive disconnect between the people who engage with the players and the people who design this game. I'm sorry to anyone from SSG who is reading this if I come across as harsh, but as a 15 year player who loves this game and has invested significant amounts of time and money here I am immensely pissed at what I've seen so far in this preview.

    I was so excited to throw a couple hundred bucks for the double points promotion until I saw the BR preview. Now I just don't feel right putting another dollar into this game until it's obvious these issues are resolved, not just 'planning to work on it', but actually resolved and ready to go when the update goes live.

    This is kind of the final nail in the coffin for me. I was OK with them completely neglecting the legendary servers and not giving us a single challenging or rewarding instance to play. I could put up with class balance issues in the past, I play a blue warden and understand that they broke the class years ago and had no expectations of them fixing it. I put up with blue hunters getting destroyed and went back to red. I was OK with the LM nerf and looked on the bright side (wind lore CD frees you up to do more, groups are less dependent on LMs). This, however, is too much for me. Champions were perfectly fine as a class but they had to disable weapon swapping which makes combat less interactive and kills our DPS, but instead of making up for it by boosting DPS and implementing a new engaging combat mechanic like stances that we can swap around in combat, we just got a second punch in the gut.

    I completely understand this is just a preview, but it's not looking good, and if this is the best first pass then I don't even know why we should bother giving them more chances. I'll be damned if I'm here 3 years from now begging for champ fixes the way I was with the blue warden.

  19. #19
    If these changes make it to live as is, just disable the class as playable and make it into as a swarm-level trash mob, it will be more in line with its ability.

  20. #20
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    Come on, what do we expect? The number of times Cordovan must have tried to work out how almost every other champ has a 10sec CD on battle frenzy and still hasn't figured it out himself. Over time you can follow where he's placed battle frenzy on his bars as it's come into and out of reach, never getting to number one where it should be. I could never understand why no one at SSG would give him some pointers, he must be beyond anyone's help or they know even less about the class. He and excohost will ofc be seeing only improvement in damage output comparing like for unlike and have nothing but praise later tomorrow.

    Like a Chequers (DDO) player playing a game of Chess and not realising it's actually 3D (Lotro).

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    Come on, what do we expect? The number of times Cordovan must have tried to work out how almost every other champ has a 10sec CD on battle frenzy and still hasn't figured it out himself. Over time you can follow where he's placed battle frenzy on his bars as it's come into and out of reach, never getting to number one where it should be. I could never understand why no one at SSG would give him some pointers, he must be beyond anyone's help or they know even less about the class. He and excohost will ofc be seeing only improvement in damage output comparing like for unlike and have nothing but praise later tomorrow.

    Like a Chequers (DDO) player playing a game of Chess and not realising it's actually 3D (Lotro).
    Of course this was expected; doesn't mean i'm not gonna cry about them being useless.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    Come on, what do we expect? The number of times Cordovan must have tried to work out how almost every other champ has a 10sec CD on battle frenzy and still hasn't figured it out himself. Over time you can follow where he's placed battle frenzy on his bars as it's come into and out of reach, never getting to number one where it should be.
    Oh, come on, even I know that. Isn't it obvious how Battle Frenzy works? Champion is the only class I play "for real", those changes to the class make little sense. Probably look great on paper though...
    Roaming Gladden since 2013

  23. #23
    What would you know, Cord himself plays champ and you're just a T5 raiding champ. Surely he knows the class better than you.

    This is sarcasm, in case anyone out there is that dense. I don't know whether to laugh or cry that they responded indirectly to a player and subsequently ruined his class. When are you going to personally consult high tier raiders before making changes instead of continuing to believe stuff like Feral Strikes is a rotation skill? You only see that on new champs who get the legacy and use the skill because it "looks cool" or "does 3 hits" not realizing a sloth could punch 3 times in a more rapid fashion. Even my GF - little MMO experience, raided once on hunter - valared a champ and while giving her a quick 101 on the class I said "Feral Strikes is avoided, why do you think that is", after using it a few more times on a dummy and some thought she said "It's slower than the other combo attacks and is needed at specific times to remove corruptions?".

    So why can't a developer acknowledge this after being involved in the game far longer than her and who even streams on that class?
    Last edited by TobiasEstForte; Sep 09 2021 at 05:07 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/222190000001ddbef/01005/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by m4r View Post
    After a look and play I feel the champ has yet again been let down (all covered above). It seems that we have been ignored/nurfed and poorly patched since HD. All we can hope for is some changes before going live if we are to remain viable for anything other than landscape and t1.
    Not sure what you are talking about, really...

    Champs have been absolutely OP for the past months. Champs single target DPS should have been nerfed a long time ago!

    From all the complaining I read in this post, looks like SSG has made some long overdue corrections to the class...

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sk0field View Post
    Not sure what you are talking about, really...

    Champs have been absolutely OP for the past months. Champs single target DPS should have been nerfed a long time ago!

    From all the complaining I read in this post, looks like SSG has made some long overdue corrections to the class...
    lmao champs aren't the top ST dps class on live. people like you only call them op because the content SSG designs at the moment favours them

 

 
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