We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1

    Dwarf animations slower than man/elf for champions

    Hey, so basically there is a known fact in the lotro community that dwarf combat animations are slower than man/elf combat animations. From my own testing and also from what players that play both dwarf and man/elf champion reported, it seems that dwarf are about 9% slower. On a 3 min parse on a dummy, it means good man/elf champions can do about 580+ attacks while good dwarf champion can do about 530+ attacks. Then, this difference also shows in dps with about the same %, meaning a player that get 200k dps on his man champion will usually get 185k on his dwarf champion. This difference is actually pretty big and sums up to be huge on very long fight.

    To be honest, I was really disappointed when I found that out. In my case, the character progression is my main objective when playing the game. I love to see my character getting stronger and I am sure its the case for many other players. Now, I feel like I cant progress as far as I could just because of a race choice I did 8 years ago. It is straight up unfair since this choice has nothing to do with my skills as a player. I feel like the game is asking me to choose the "right race" for my class whitout any disclamer that dwarfs actually sucks for being champion. Shouldn't the race choice be only a role playing one ?

    It is also my understanding that this issue has been going on for several years. I dont understand why it hasn't been fixed and why I dont see this as a priority ? To me, because of this issue, the game is currently unfair to many players and I dont think a video game should ever be unfair, especially an MMO.

    Could we potentially see a fix for this soon, maybe in the Gundabad expansion ? Since this expansion will be about the great story of the dwarfs, it would make sense to me that the long overdue greatness of them would also be restored !


    Thank you very much for your time and efforts !

    PS: Still adore the game despite the issue though

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    229
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMiky View Post
    Hey, so basically there is a known fact in the lotro community that dwarf combat animations are slower than man/elf combat animations. From my own testing and also from what players that play both dwarf and man/elf champion reported, it seems that dwarf are about 9% slower. On a 3 min parse on a dummy, it means good man/elf champions can do about 580+ attacks while good dwarf champion can do about 530+ attacks. Then, this difference also shows in dps with about the same %, meaning a player that get 200k dps on his man champion will usually get 185k on his dwarf champion. This difference is actually pretty big and sums up to be huge on very long fight.

    To be honest, I was really disappointed when I found that out. In my case, the character progression is my main objective when playing the game. I love to see my character getting stronger and I am sure its the case for many other players. Now, I feel like I cant progress as far as I could just because of a race choice I did 8 years ago. It is straight up unfair since this choice has nothing to do with my skills as a player. I feel like the game is asking me to choose the "right race" for my class whitout any disclamer that dwarfs actually sucks for being champion. Shouldn't the race choice be only a role playing one ?

    It is also my understanding that this issue has been going on for several years. I dont understand why it hasn't been fixed and why I dont see this as a priority ? To me, because of this issue, the game is currently unfair to many players and I dont think a video game should ever be unfair, especially an MMO.

    Could we potentially see a fix for this soon, maybe in the Gundabad expansion ? Since this expansion will be about the great story of the dwarfs, it would make sense to me that the long overdue greatness of them would also be restored !


    Thank you very much for your time and efforts !

    PS: Still adore the game despite the issue though

    Also very curious if this could be addressed before Gundabad, dwarf animations/dps has had threads, posts, studies and graphs done about this for years but I always just assumed they fixed it by now...not good. Because champion is in a good place it seems easy to ignore, which means if champions ever get nerfed without this bug being fixed the dwarves will justifiably be the angriest of all.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    534
    This really needs to be addressed, though I don't know if I've ever seen a blue name even comment on it. I made a champ recently, and initially wanted to do a stout-axe but as soon as I saw how slow that animation for brutal assault was I just immediately deleted him knowing there wouldn't be a point.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeneth View Post
    This really needs to be addressed, though I don't know if I've ever seen a blue name even comment on it. I made a champ recently, and initially wanted to do a stout-axe but as soon as I saw how slow that animation for brutal assault was I just immediately deleted him knowing there wouldn't be a point.
    I don't remember any dev comments on this either. Sounds like one for Raninia, given that he's been making a habit of addressing issues such as these which may have been overlooked beforehand.
    - Taravan, R12 Captain - Tirian, Tanking Guardian - Telperon, Completionist LM -
    - Afranius, R9 WL - Tolobain, R7 Weaver - Vargan, R6 Stalker -

    Ex-Leader of Lost Realm of Imladris - Evernight - Co-Founder of Beauty and the Beasts

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    229
    I sent Raninia a link to this via PM on the 25th, hoping he sees it before Gundabad though I imagine he is very busy.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    229
    No reply for about a month in DMs, no reply on the forums about this problem for a...decade? And all the Gundabad talk is about the LI revamp, which I thought was a free thing they just wanted to do, not a major use of time during the creation of an expansion pack. More of the same lately.

  7. #7
    Had to race change my dwarf hunter to elf for the bow damage racial (used to only apply to auto-attacks when I made the char so no big deal). Also dwarf animations were slower so was probably around a 12% increase in DPS by race changing.

  8. #8

    Thumbs up

    Not only that, Male characters are slower than female characters.

    The best choice for a champion is the female high elf.

    You can try...
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC7SBISVGLMxNDhlhvZiReA/videos

    "Nolomir" R11 Captain - "Nolofin" R11 Warden

  9. #9
    Is this matter of just champions, or all classes?

    I mean brawler will be pretty close to champs, in terms of combat style/animations, and i was planning to finally play dwarf after 12 years of non-dwarf alts

    Commander Liliam - the Warden
    Evernight

  10. #10
    I agree, hopefully with Gundabad, the devs look into that. The difference is noticeable and makes dwarf champs feel neglected.

  11. #11
    Dorfs are fat and stinky.

    That's why.
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

    < No Dorfs >
    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    229
    Still no reply to my DM, still no replies to these threads. Why would I buy the brawler knowing that the champion is being neglected? I liked my champion fine, all it needed was a few bug fixes. Within a decade would have been great.

  13. #13
    it's because dwarves ARE slower... ; )

  14. #14
    I actually made it a point to test this on Bullroarer (free Race Changes, woo) and can confirm that each race still has a different animation speed.

    Methodology: parse 5 times and filter highest and lowest to control for RNG. Parses with major mistakes (server lag, skill bugs) were immediately dropped and excluded.

    In hindsight I realize omitting female characters was a big oversight (and a bit misogynistic), but this took the better part of 2 hours and I only had so much time and finger stamina.



    Takeaways:
    - Dwarves are not quite the slowest, but they are close. Stout-Axes have earned that distinction and you can really feel it. I already sort of knew this having both Elf and Stout-Axe Champions on Live, but their differences in gear and LIs always complicated comparisons.
    - Male Elves and High Elves are very close on average. I suspect the modest difference can be attributed to the Elves' only getting +5% 1H sword damage while High Elves get +5% 1H and 2H sword damage. Probably not worth spending LP over, as I've considered in the past.
    - I was legitimately shocked at how much faster and stronger Male Man Champ was. It felt like a completely different class from Stout-Axe and the numbers bear that out. If I didn't have elaborate mental lore for my Elf Champion, I would absolutely Race Change for the additional damage.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    534
    Honestly what I find most surprising out of that test is that there's a slightly larger gap between male high elves and men, than there is between dwarves and male high elves. (I've seen another test elsewhere showing that female high elves do indeed have the fastest of all animations) I've compared both before and it really didn't feel or look like high elf was any slower than man was, but dwarf and stout-axe felt noticeably slower to me. I didn't do a numbers test or anything though, I just played with each to get a feel for them.

    There's not enough of a difference to where I'd race change personally, because I really enjoy being a high elf, but it is really unfortunate that it's there at all. I wonder if things would be any different with dual wielding or not. Because at first if I would have seen man doing a bit more damage then I would have assumed it was because of the spinning blade wall animation on high elf. However normal elves don't have that, so it seems that it actually doesn't hurt them much. Instead I wonder if it has anything to do with the weird way elves hold 2H swords, and how they always kind of return and start from that position after and before each skill. Because besides that the animations themselves really don't look any slower than man.

    I really wish this is something that they would get around to. I have no idea how hard it would be to fix, but in general I find it irritating that man not only has the fastest animations, but also the best racial abilities by far with duty bound and 5% incoming healing, both of which are pretty big now with how high stats have gotten. I remember Raninia saying a while back on a stream that racial balancing was a pretty low priority, but I really wish they'd reconsider that after Gundabad is all out. This has been an issue for too long. Both animations and racial abilities need balancing.

    I'd wager the animation differences are most noticeable on champ because of the role and nature of the class, but are likely present on some other classes too in some form.

  16. #16

    Unhappy

    I guess the lack of communication of SSG towards this issue proves that we won't have a fix for that soon... I am very disappointed that they don't recognize the importance of race balance. It is discriminatory towards some players so I really think it should be of the highest priority. I guess it doesn't bother SSG to be unfair to some of their player...

    Also, I dont understand why they couldn't implement a hotfix only based on the statistical differences. Just from the table someone did in this post, you can start to see the dps differences between the races. Doing this exercice with a sample of player/parses sufficent would give a pretty accurate approximation of the dps gap % between the races. Then, an appropriate permanent attack speed boost could be given to the races that lack behind.

    It may not be a solution as good as revamping the races animation but at least it would be fast to do and effectively solve the problem for now. If SSG lack the capability to generate this analytic, I am sure many players would be happy to provide it for them. Actually, if you ask the high end raiding community, they probably already have a solid idea of what are the % differences between the races.

    Ultimately, I am starting to believe the reason this problem has not been solved yet is not the lack of ressources, but the lack of care towards it. It really sucks and it gives me the impression this issue will never be solved...

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload