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  1. #1
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    Another idea for the LI revamp

    If you guys want to balance classes so much then why not get rid of weapon swapping?
    I know people are going to automatically hate this thread because of that sentence alone but hear me out.

    If you have a skill or legacy that's best used on a 2h then why not buff the legacy on a 1h and vice versa?
    For example, Champions do more damage with Rend, Ferocious Strikes and Brutal Strikes with a 2h weapon
    and dual wielding is best Relentless/Remorseless Strikes, Wild Attack and Blade Wall.
    Why not buff the damage of Brutal Strikes, Ferocious Strikes and Rend if used while dual wielding while buffing Relentless/Remorseless Strikes and Blade Wall if used with a 2h?

    Further on with the LI suggestions. Why not scrap the idea of melee/ranged and class item legacies and give us the opportunity to use another Crystal of Remembrance?
    In all, we will have 8 legacies on each LI but with the class/ranged and class item legacy restrictions lifted, we can now put any legacy on either LI if we want it that way.

    For example, Blade Wall Damage is no longer restricted to a Champion's rune and Critical Hit Damage is no longer restricted to the champion's sword.
    That also opens up the pathway of making Blade Wall hit harder for a 2h LI if placed there instead of making it a necessity of dual wielding for that attack.
    Blade Wall on a 2h can do the same damage as Blade Wall while dual wielding.
    Also, I would suggest adding the passive mitigation debuff to the Horn Damage legacy, combine Rend Bleed and Armor Reduction legacies, keep the unimbued Great Cleave Duration legacy.
    Rework the Horn Stun Duration legacy as a passive for another legacy. Maybe add that to Great Cleave Duration?

    Another example, for Hunters, Burn Hot Damage is no longer restricted to our bows and Merciful Shot Cooldown + Critical Multiplier is no longer restricted to our sword.
    With 8 legacies per LI, we will be able to have all of the bow skills,
    i.e, Merciful Shot, Quick Shot Damage, Quick Shot Crit Chance, Heart Seeker, Upshot, Rain of Arrows, Induction Bow Damage and one more on our bow
    while having Precision Stance Critical Multiplier, Burn Hot Damage, Induction Bow Critical Multiplier, Focus Bow Critical Multiplier, Focus Bow Power Cost + Damage, Trap Damage, Hunter Damage Over Time and one more on our sword

    Don't get me wrong, we will still need multiple LIs for multiple specs, that's only natural.
    We will be able to fit all of the legacies we need for our builds on a set of LIs instead of needing 3-5 per setup.

    Then on classes where there is a clear shortage of legacies, like Beornings,
    we can just simply combine the Bee Swarm Damage (Imbued) and Duration (unimbued) legacies into one then add a legacy to boost bleed damage and maybe bleed or flat critical damage.
    Add a legacy to buff Bash damage and some legacies that are more appropriate for blue and yellow specs. I haven't played my beorning that much to really give a proper assessment
    but there are many others who have and had some good suggestions on Beorning legacies.

    With all of this being implemented, DPS generation would be pure rotation like it should have been from the start and a lot of headaches would be eased then the game will be more fun for most of us.
    Right now only the players who have mastered the art of weapon swapping are able to do t3+ raids and most of them transferred over to a server with others alike.
    Weapon swapping his is a skill that is only required in Lord of the Rings Online. Any other game doesn't require it. At least not to my knowledge.

    I reiterate, I am probably going to receive hate for this idea because people took the time to learn weapon swapping and I am suggesting to remove the concept of it from the game like they did for armor swapping.
    It's not the fact that we non-swappers need to "git gud", we just cannot afford a computer that won't lag terribly, have disabilities, etc. There are numerous reasons why we are unable to rise up to the task.
    Call me lazy all you want for not wanting to learn weapon swapping but doesn't change the fact that this needs to change.

  2. #2
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    They should not get rid of weaponswapping, imagine removing a huge layer of combat from the game without any replacement for it. Combat is gonna become so much more boring and much less engaging than it already is. Lotro is already known for not having very engaging fights, mechanics are little and slow. Weaponswapping is not even needed to clear any content. You can do AD T5, Remmo t5, Khazad Dum t3 without anyone ever weaponswapping no problem. The only place where weaponswapping has a big impact is during raid progression races or first clears in general. After that the only reason why people weaponswap is because it's a lot more engaging and thus more fun, it gives you something more to do in the game and such players love to maximize their performance. It gives a nice boost in performance and indeed an advantage, but you well deserved that advantage by putting in extra work. Someone who doesn't do x mechanic is indeed disadvantaged when the boss smacks him in the face everytime. Tho this is not really a fair comparison as weaponswapping is not even needed so its more like taking a tiny tickle from the boss everytime you dont do his mechanic*

    It already takes zero effort to learn, just clickswap or have 1-2 (3) keys you just constantly click before certain skills and secondly you don't even have to weaponswap in this game to finish any content at all. So i don't understand why the push to remove it, all it does is remove the fun from people who want to add some more spice to their food.

  3. #3
    SSG knows about weapon swapping and that its a vicious cycle where players weapon swap so ssg puts in stuff to ensure instances & raids have more things that need to be debuffed/etc by said weapon swapping which makes players do it more. They want to do something about it but as of the last friday's Q&A they pretty much have no true idea of where to go with such beyond moving away from such at a later date and time.

  4. #4
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    IMO they should remove them entirely, but that'll never happen.

    So if they'll stay, we should only get 1. Just one.

    This stays with us from 50 to 130, it upgrades, we reforge it like narsil to anduril, which allows players to make it a different kind of legendary (sword to axe, for example, or get a different look, or etc). We can apply upgrades to it as well. Dungeons and raids could drop items that provide both upgrades and change the look, too.

    This provides visual diversity as well as an upgrade path while allowing players to create the story of their legendary weapon. It would also be WAY more in tune with lore.
    Last edited by SniperCT; Jun 22 2021 at 09:21 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by SniperCT View Post
    IMO they should remove them entirely, but that'll never happen.

    So if they'll stay, we should only get 1. Just one.

    This stays with us from 50 to 130, it upgrades, we reforge it like narsil to anduril, which allows players to make it a different kind of legendary (sword to axe, for example, or get a different look, or etc). We can apply upgrades to it as well. Dungeons and raids could drop items that provide both upgrades and change the look, too.

    This provides visual diversity as well as an upgrade path while allowing players to create the story of their legendary weapon. It would also be WAY more in tune with lore.
    They have a new LI System coming before U31 (Gundabad Expansion) pending they get it out before then. A preview of such might be out in August if not before.

  6. #6
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    They should not remove weapon swapping. It makes combat more interesting and interactive and provides one more layer of optional complexity for players who enjoy it.

    Should they fix the fact that there are too many broken LI legacies? That we still have this ridiculous unimbued/imbued system? That some classes don't even need LIs because their legacies are so useless? That some classes have way too many good legacies on one LI and not enough on another? YES, all of these should be fixed, but weapon swapping should not be removed.

    If you do not like weapon swapping, do not partake. It's that simple. You can run pretty much any content on any class without weapon swapping at this point. Will you be able to DPS your way through T4/T5 FoKD when it comes out without weapon swapping? Probably not if you are a champ or hunter, but honestly who cares? If you are complaining about weapon swapping at this point in the game chances are you wouldn't be running that content when it first gets released anyway.

    I'm going to provide one last perspective here. I have a level 20 champ that I have started leveling and am thoroughly enjoying. I like the fact that my champ can use a 2 hander or two 1 handers. I like even more the fact that I can swap them in combat. Does it provide me any real value when I'm hacking away at Jagger Jack while swapping weapons? Of course not, but it's fun to do. The combat is more interactive, and there is an immersion factor to dropping two small swords and grabbing a large 2 hand weapon mid fight.
    Erendil 50 Hunter Rank 7, Mavellen 45 Warden; Officers of Disciples
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvain View Post
    They have a new LI System coming before U31 (Gundabad Expansion) pending they get it out before then. A preview of such might be out in August if not before.
    I'm aware, I'm hoping it's something like what I suggested!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post

    If you have a skill or legacy that's best used on a 2h then why not buff the legacy on a 1h and vice versa?
    For example, Champions do more damage with Rend, Ferocious Strikes and Brutal Strikes with a 2h weapon
    and dual wielding is best Relentless/Remorseless Strikes, Wild Attack and Blade Wall.
    Why not buff the damage of Brutal Strikes, Ferocious Strikes and Rend if used while dual wielding while buffing Relentless/Remorseless Strikes and Blade Wall if used with a 2h?
    I don't raid for several reasons but one of them is that I main a champ and have no desire to engage in weapon swapping, which is basically expected of champs as I understand it. I love your suggestion and its what I would love to see in the future. Maybe it will be a possibility with the revamp. Of course, given that I don't raid atm, my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. Maybe the revamp will remove the requirement of weapon swapping for champs to maximize their dps but allow for the act of weapon swapping for those who enjoy it with some other benefit, I dunno. In his Q&A with Cordovan, Raninia alluded to looking at champs when weapon swapping was brought up and mentioned that there might be a need to nerf them temporarily to work on them but I DEFINITELY do not want that. Ugh.

  9. #9
    Unless the insane number and value of legacies is reduced massively, class balance will be a nightmare to achieve.

    There are too many modifiers effecting each character. Legendary weapons 1. need to drop again, so that they are both legendary and.... weapons. Right now, they are part of your character. They don't feel like actual items. Everyone has them-- in fact, you can't really play the game without them. The name legendary is completely and utterly false at this point.

    And 2. There should be 3 legacies tops for each weapon. These things shouldn't be extensions of your trait tree or stat panel. Its absurd what all they do.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PewPew9700 View Post
    In his Q&A with Cordovan, Raninia alluded to looking at champs when weapon swapping was brought up and mentioned that there might be a need to nerf them temporarily to work on them but I DEFINITELY do not want that. Ugh.
    I definitely don't want this either, which is why I'm against them making any short sighted changes around weapon swapping. LI revamp is more than welcome, but when SSG says they are going to "nerf them temporarily" it's like when I tell my wife "i'll get to it"...whatever I left half-done is not going to get looked at for 6 months. SSG has a history of destroying great classes to try to 'balance' things, blue hunter, blue warden, blue LM, to name a few.
    Erendil 50 Hunter Rank 7, Mavellen 45 Warden; Officers of Disciples
    Ragaroth Warleader Rank 7, Marhawk Stalker Rank 5; Members of Cuddle Squad
    Other Characters: Arthilius - Captain, Arthilias - Guardian,
    Claireth - Runekeeper, Harbuckle - Burglar, Lothlirien - Hunter

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    I definitely don't want this either, which is why I'm against them making any short sighted changes around weapon swapping. LI revamp is more than welcome, but when SSG says they are going to "nerf them temporarily" it's like when I tell my wife "i'll get to it"...whatever I left half-done is not going to get looked at for 6 months. SSG has a history of destroying great classes to try to 'balance' things, blue hunter, blue warden, blue LM, to name a few.
    Yeah, I'm with you. When I heard the words "champ," "nerf," "temporarily" I became like that one Britney Spears fan and yelled, "LEAVE CHAMPS ALONE!" at the screen, lol. Given SSG's history with class tinkering, as you mentioned, I would much rather weapon swapping stay in place than have my favorite DPS class broken in some way or another.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    They should not remove weapon swapping. It makes combat more interesting and interactive and provides one more layer of optional complexity for players who enjoy it.
    The word you were looking for is not complexity, but dexterity. Dependent on class, it is also not so much optional in higher tiers (like every other "you don't need", but "when you want this, you need").

    There is one limited complexity, which is setting up a rotation together with swappies (and swap minimization). But it does not add dynamic gameplay or "live" complexity. People play their trained sequences and if something happens, they try to get back into them without major changes. Playing these sequences requires minor thought (quite often spent by others and copied by many), but some training and this is achievement enough. But it is *not* interactive, not fully optional, not complex and IMO not even interesting.
    An interesting approach to weapon swapping would be if weapon/skill sequences *would* actually make more difference and have branches like warden gambits (which suffer the most by server lag). But this is not what we have. We have "per skill group buffs" with simple groupings. Rare decisions, rare branching, just play the sequences trained into movement memory.

  13. #13
    Not sure why the level of vehemence on weapon swapping. The actions on my champ to press a specific set of buttons in a specific order to increase damage is exactly what happens with my warden in gambit building. If it’s out of order you can result in far less damage. If you hit lag the muscle memory really hurts because the buttons are overwritten instead of in order. Lag is my reason for not playing my warden and minimizing weapon swapping on my champ. Muscle memory is great until the lag equalizer hits with semi-random delays. There are many sequences of serial actions on many characters to get an effect. Swapping is just another one.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    Not sure why the level of vehemence on weapon swapping. The actions on my champ to press a specific set of buttons in a specific order to increase damage is exactly what happens with my warden in gambit building. If it’s out of order you can result in far less damage. If you hit lag the muscle memory really hurts because the buttons are overwritten instead of in order. Lag is my reason for not playing my warden and minimizing weapon swapping on my champ. Muscle memory is great until the lag equalizer hits with semi-random delays. There are many sequences of serial actions on many characters to get an effect. Swapping is just another one.
    On my part I'm against weapons swapping because it can upgrade the LI grind even more, and I hate this grind. (depends of classes and specializations and rerolls numbers...)
    But also cause I find it a bit "unrealistic". I suppose with an animation of 5s, and/or with a limitation of numbers per fight (like the new rez) I will find it "realistic" but then not sure players using it will find it useful.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    Not sure why the level of vehemence on weapon swapping. The actions on my champ to press a specific set of buttons in a specific order to increase damage is exactly what happens with my warden in gambit building.
    You've made your definition so vague that basically everything is the same as weapon swapping. A rotation on most specs is just a specific set of buttons in a specific order to increase damage/healing/support and so on...

    Weapon swapping is just some arbitrary thing that makes you deal more damage with the cost being higher APM, more elaborate keybinding, and longer LI grinds. If you like that kind of thing, sure, weapon swapping is great. If you don't'....well then you just hate weapon swapping and think it sucks you're being penalised for not enjoying a mechanic that wasn't really intended in the first place.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    You've made your definition so vague that basically everything is the same as weapon swapping. A rotation on most specs is just a specific set of buttons in a specific order to increase damage/healing/support and so on...

    Weapon swapping is just some arbitrary thing that makes you deal more damage with the cost being higher APM, more elaborate keybinding, and longer LI grinds. If you like that kind of thing, sure, weapon swapping is great. If you don't'....well then you just hate weapon swapping and think it sucks you're being penalised for not enjoying a mechanic that wasn't really intended in the first place.
    Sorry you read it that way. My intent was to directly compare weapon swapping sequences to warden gambit builder sequences. Nothing to do with rotations or general skill activations. Gambit builders are a specific sequence that must be done in a specific order to get the correct gambit. Block skills to get shield slam to work on guardian must be done first (2-3 of them). A mini must have done 3 ballads within the correct timeframe to get the anthems to activate. Many of those are not order dependent so I used gambit builders as my best analogy.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    Sorry you read it that way. My intent was to directly compare weapon swapping sequences to warden gambit builder sequences. Nothing to do with rotations or general skill activations. Gambit builders are a specific sequence that must be done in a specific order to get the correct gambit. Block skills to get shield slam to work on guardian must be done first (2-3 of them). A mini must have done 3 ballads within the correct timeframe to get the anthems to activate. Many of those are not order dependent so I used gambit builders as my best analogy.
    And it's a really terrible analogy.

    Different builder combos produce wildly different effects. Weapon swapping outright doesn't change anything, just results in a skill doing more damage. Skill does basically the exact same thing regardless of whether you swapped or not. The closest comparison one could make is that weapon swapping is vaguely akin to stance dancing between in the fray and assailment... but even there it's not particularly similar as Assailment actually modifies a whole bunch of things whilst weapon swapping is again...just a damage mod.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  18. #18
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    When weapon swapping doubles your dps then you know there is a problem.
    I guess I am not entirely against swapping as my post indicates but I am rather against how huge of an impact it has at endgame.
    It should not be a requirement or expected of anyone at endgame, only a option. A option that shouldn't really make such a difference.

    People literally get excluded and shunned because players who swap already do 150-200% more dps than they do.
    You can have a great rotation and still do less damage than someone who has an okay rotation but can swap weapons.

    Swapping is the main reason why there is such a gap between players.
    Sure, some may not have a clue on the class or a decent rotation but swapping sets them even further from the rest.
    You won't be taken seriously if you do not swap nor will you ever see anything higher than a t1 completion.


    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    You can do AD T5, Remmo t5, Khazad Dum t3 without anyone ever weaponswapping.
    You literally cannot. Why try to say this when it's not true?
    You can *do* t2 and t3 Remmorchant, AD or FoKD without swapping as an individual but you bet your sweet hiney that you were carried by players who swap effectively and fluently.
    But t4 and t5 is off the table unless you pay up your keister.

  19. #19
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    I essentially agree with everything Pewpewmidgit said. And it is rare when I can find nothing to add or disagree with.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post
    If you guys want to balance classes so much then why not get rid of weapon swapping?
    I know people are going to automatically hate this thread because of that sentence alone but hear me out.

    If you have a skill or legacy that's best used on a 2h then why not buff the legacy on a 1h and vice versa?
    For example, Champions do more damage with Rend, Ferocious Strikes and Brutal Strikes with a 2h weapon
    and dual wielding is best Relentless/Remorseless Strikes, Wild Attack and Blade Wall.
    Why not buff the damage of Brutal Strikes, Ferocious Strikes and Rend if used while dual wielding while buffing Relentless/Remorseless Strikes and Blade Wall if used with a 2h?
    Do you trust them to do this? Guardians complained that Captains were the preferred tank class. So what did SSG do? They nerfed Captain without doing a single thing to buff Guardian to make it the preferred tank class. Do you think they won't do the same if they prevent swapping? They won't buff the skills to be on par. Like I said in another thread, they don't play this game. I would pay every cent in my bank account to watch a developer play in a t4/t5 raid on video.
    Tyrant Vargburz, The Most Hated

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by reverendmaggot View Post
    Do you trust them to do this? Guardians complained that Captains were the preferred tank class. So what did SSG do? They nerfed Captain without doing a single thing to buff Guardian to make it the preferred tank class.
    ...Guardian is now the preferred tank class, at least in FOKD.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by reverendmaggot View Post
    Do you trust them to do this?

    I actually don't trust them to do anything right at all.
    Swapping made too much of a difference in endgame raids.
    My guess about them waiting until NOW to come out and say that they're looking to do away with weapon swapping was because not everyone was grinding their hearts out....
    We had people paying out the pocket for Mithril Coins to skip the grind and then the catch up bundle they sold last year.
    They were making enough money to let the issue slide as long as it has.

 

 

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