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  1. #1

    Seven Houses of the Dwarves - Tolkien names vs LOTRO names

    So, with update 30, we get to see all seven dwarf houses show up for the battle of Azanulbizar, and can run around their camps checking out their different dress and appearances, which I really enjoyed! I was wondering though which house names in LOTRO correspond to the house names Tolkien gave them. I understand that SSG can't use the actual Tolkien names because of licensing reasons, but I'm sure that the devs made an effort to match them up to Tolkien's actual houses just the same. I've also been wondering which clan the Stout Axes belong to, but all I could originally find was "one of the groups from the east" which wasn't very helpful. I think now with Update 30, we have enough info to answer these questions!

    I tried to figure it out and thought I would post it here.

    Longbeards ---------> Longbeards (no problems there!)

    Firebeards ----------> Narfanghoth

    Broadbeams --------> Landorrim

    Ironfists -------------> Zhelruka

    Stiffbeards ----------> Kambrada (sub branch = Stout Axes)

    Blacklocks -----------> Temamir

    Stonefoots ----------> Abnuzhu


    Here's how I came to those conclusions:


    Firebeards ----------> Narfanghoth because their flag literally has flames and a red beard on it, and their King is named Bloodwhisker. That one was pretty obvious!

    Ironfists -------------> Zhelruka because according to some past discussions I found online, Zhulruka roughly translates to "Iron hand" in a slavic language and their flag has a gauntlet on it.

    Stonefoots ----------> Abnuzhu because their flag is a boot

    Stiffbeards ----------> Kambrada (sub branch = Stout Axes) because their flag has a white beard made out of sharp (stiff) points. At one point King Thorin III basically links the Kambrada with the Stout Axes in a quest dialog. He says, "I have drafted missives to the Kings of Temamir, the Abnuzhu, and....the Kambrada. After all it is high time they learned of their cousins in Mordor!"

    That left the Broadbeams and the Blacklocks, which I wasn't as sure of but I think it makes sense like this:

    Blacklocks -----------> Temamir because they all have dark hair

    Broadbeams --------> Landorrim because Broadbeam sounds like an Ent name to me and their flag has a tree on it. Also, they are all NOT dark haired.


    We know that the Firebeards and Broadbeams are from the West, while the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots are from the east. We also know that these clans in the east were "born" in groups of two: Ironfists & Stiffbeards, Blacklocks & Stonefoots. The Stonefoots (Abnuzhu) and the Blacklocks (Temamir) go together like they should because they all have dark skin and hair, and their dress is more African-inspired, which would make sense if they were both from the southern regions of their zone (since Middle Earth seems to match our cultures approximately in that way.) Likewise, the Ironfists (Zhelruka) and Stiffbeards (Kambrada) look more alike as well, and the game even suggests in character creation that some stout axes would have slavic names which would have made sense if the two groups had intermingled through the years.

  2. #2
    That's it perfectly!
    Argendauss, Captain
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    Hrodgart, Beorning
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  3. #3
    And the Dourhand Dwarves? Are they a sub branch of the Narfanghoth or the Landorrim?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ZypoDasko View Post
    And the Dourhand Dwarves? Are they a sub branch of the Narfanghoth or the Landorrim?
    When I was googling around for info I found a dev interview somewhere where it was said that the Dourhands were a mix of "bad" dwarves from both branches.

  5. #5
    I wonder why they didn't just use the Tolkien names ? I'm sure there is a thread on that somewhere
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavinDwarf View Post
    I wonder why they didn't just use the Tolkien names ? I'm sure there is a thread on that somewhere
    They're not in sources we have access to use, so we need to use our own.

    MoL

  7. #7
    This is excellent! Thank you so much. I took a moment during the Council of Seven to look at all the different Kings and banners, then try to connect them with the Dwarf clans we already know about. Didn't think about licensing with the renaming - I figured the devs just went with Dwarvish names for the clans.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    They're not in sources we have access to use, so we need to use our own.

    MoL
    Yall did a great job being as lore adjacent as possible, sharing identifiable elements and having clear analogues without it being a cheesy the way NukaCola is to CocaCola. A nod without a wink.
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Gunnart, Guardian

  9. #9
    This is awesome, CloudCastle! Thank you!

    As a side note, I stared at King Drogar's beard for a good 5 minutes and still sometimes stable master back to stare at it. It is the most impressive beard I have ever seen. <3

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    When I was googling around for info I found a dev interview somewhere where it was said that the Dourhands were a mix of "bad" dwarves from both branches.

    There it is: https://thedwarrowscholar.com/2019/0...-talk-dwarves/

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Pierson
    the comparison with the Dourhands is actually fairly accurate in as much as they are their own thing that has arisen from one of the other clans – The Dourhands arising from multiple clans
    Last edited by Malachi108; Jun 11 2021 at 02:56 PM.

  11. #11
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    I would also like to point out how wonderful it is to see the two houses of Dwarves of Color. I know a lot of people are tired of dwarf-centric stories, but I hope we get to find out more about the history of these two clans and the far-flung lands from which they come.
    Arda Shrugged - Elendilstone / Landroval / Anor

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gildhur View Post
    I would also like to point out how wonderful it is to see the two houses of Dwarves of Color. I know a lot of people are tired of dwarf-centric stories, but I hope we get to find out more about the history of these two clans and the far-flung lands from which they come.
    I real enjoyed handing out combs amongst the Temamir so their beards wouldn't get nappy! It's a small but meaningful nod to the very real upkeep that Black hair requires and shows they're thinking beyond just cosmetic differences.

    Hopefully we get more of all clans in Gundabad, and further down the line some cool Blacklock and Stonefoot architecture when we finally get to Harad/Khand/etc.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    Firebeards ----------> Narfanghoth because their flag literally has flames and a red beard on it, and their King is named Bloodwhisker.# That one was pretty obvious!
    Narfanghoth is a straight Sindarin translation. Naur "fire" fang "beard" hoth "horde". They must have taken this name from their neighbors, the Elves of Lindon. I wonder if there's any significance to the class plural hoth which is derogatory compared to rim and usually used either for enemy forces or for those considered "barbarians" like the Lossoth. Maybe a relic of the strife between Elves and Dwarves in the First Age?

    We don't have enough name examples for me to be certain, but Drógar looks like a Norse name to me. Having had close relations for the Longbeards for thousands of years, I guess the Narfanghoth would take names in the Northman language the same as the Longbeards. The Dourhands are a renegade subgroup of Narfanghoth and/or Landorrim and they have Northman names, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    Ironfists -------------> Zhelruka because according to some past discussions I found online, Zhulruka roughly translates to "Iron hand" in a slavic language and their flag has a gauntlet on it.
    Right, this was figured out soon after the Zhélruka were introduced. I haven't noticed any interesting new details about these Zhélruka. Just different century, different king. The Zhélruka language is based on Old Slavic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    Stonefoots ----------> Abnuzhu because their flag is a boot
    And it looks like they wear sandals! Very interesting aesthetic for this House. Next is to figure out what language "Abnúzhu" is from. Any help here, MadeOfLions?

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    Stiffbeards ----------> Kambrada (sub branch = Stout Axes) because their flag has a white beard made out of sharp (stiff) points. At one point King Thorin III basically links the Kambrada with the Stout Axes in a quest dialog.# He says, "I have drafted missives to the Kings of Temamir, the Abnuzhu, and....the Kambrada.# After all it is high time they learned of their cousins in Mordor!"
    Also, the Zhélruka we meet in Ered Mithrin refer to our Stout-axe companions as Kámbrada. The Kámbrada/Stout-axes use names inspired by Baltic and Slavic language. The native word for "Stout-axe", Khirvísa, comes from the Baltic words for something like "little axe" I think. I can't quite find the suffix I found before.

    Kámbrada comes from the Slavic words for "Stone beard". I noticed King Usk (whose name is Baltic for "Faith") and his son have pretty impressively pointy beards, and a derogatory Zhélruka name for the Kámbrada is "boar-whiskered" or a Slavic approximate translation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    That left the Broadbeams and the Blacklocks, which I wasn't as sure of but I think it makes sense like this:

    Blacklocks -----------> Temamir because they all have dark hair
    Like the Abnúzhu, I really like these dwarves' look and the diversity they bring, and I hope we can figure out what language the Temánir use.

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    Broadbeams --------> Landorrim because Broadbeam sounds like an Ent name to me and their flag has a tree on it.# Also, they are all NOT dark haired.
    Good catch. "Beam" is from the old Germanic word for tree, as in modern German "baum". These seem to have the same kind of names as their Narfanghoth neighbors. In Sindarin: Land "broad" orn "tree" rim "people". I think their personal names are also Norse. Interesting that they wear hides and furs and they have a tree motif. Could these be woodsy hillfolk type dwarves?

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    We know that the Firebeards and Broadbeams are from the West, while the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots are from the east.# We also know that these clans in the east were "born" in groups of two:# Ironfists & Stiffbeards, Blacklocks & Stonefoots.# The Stonefoots (Abnuzhu) and the Blacklocks (Temamir) go together like they should because they all have dark skin and hair, and their dress is more African-inspired, which would make sense if they were both from the southern regions of their zone (since Middle Earth seems to match our cultures approximately in that way.)# Likewise, the Ironfists (Zhelruka) and Stiffbeards (Kambrada) look more alike as well, and the game even suggests in character creation that some stout axes would have slavic names which would have made sense if the two groups had intermingled through the years.
    I agree. The Zhélruka, Kámbrada, and Abnúzhu have all been associated with the Ered Cernin, which sounds like LOTRO's license-friendly version of the Red Mountains known in Quenya as Orocarni, the great mountain range of the East. Maybe the Ered Cernin extend to Harad, and the Abnúzhu live in that part of it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    The Stonefoots (Abnuzhu) and the Blacklocks (Temamir) go together like they should because they all have dark skin and hair, and their dress is more African-inspired, which would make sense if they were both from the southern regions of their zone (since Middle Earth seems to match our cultures approximately in that way.) .
    Your geography is a bit off... anywhere further south than Gondor would be very much the South (Harad), whereas Tolkien said the other Dwarves lived in the East; he talks about the Easterlings having had dealings with the Dwarves in the past. Dwarves and other underground-dwelling, treasure-guarding beings similar to them can be found in Norse, Germanic, Celtic and Slavic myth and folklore so that's the sort of culture they belong with. So no, what you said there doesn't really make sense, it's just SSG following in MERP's footsteps and contriving an excuse for Dwarves being in the south as well. Lore-wise they can't be 'from' the South: in the already unlikely circumstance they'd wandered that far (they weren't much for wandering far from home unless they were forced to), that wouldn't make them look so different too so that part likewise makes no sense.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnagerwine View Post
    Good catch. "Beam" is from the old Germanic word for tree, as in modern German "baum". These seem to have the same kind of names as their Narfanghoth neighbors. In Sindarin: Land "broad" orn "tree" rim "people". I think their personal names are also Norse. Interesting that they wear hides and furs and they have a tree motif. Could these be woodsy hillfolk type dwarves?



    I agree. The Zhélruka, Kámbrada, and Abnúzhu have all been associated with the Ered Cernin, which sounds like LOTRO's license-friendly version of the Red Mountains known in Quenya as Orocarni, the great mountain range of the East. Maybe the Ered Cernin extend to Harad, and the Abnúzhu live in that part of it.
    Thanks for all the interesting info! I had the feeling there was more going with the meaning behind "broadbeam" but I wasn't sure what it was. I just knew that some Ents had "beam" in their names here in LOTRO and I figured that wasn't on accident, especially with that dwarven flag having a tree on it.


    As for the clans in the eastern mountains, it sounds like SSG has assigned the Abnuzhu and the Tememir to the southern portion of their mountain range and the Zhelruka and Kamrada to the northern portion. One of the dwarven clans had a look that made me think of ancient Egypt, so perhaps they are assuming that the mountain range does indeed extend very far south (even adjacent to Harad or Khand.) I hope LOTRO heads east eventually and we get to find out more about this part of the map!



    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Your geography is a bit off... anywhere further south than Gondor would be very much the South (Harad), whereas Tolkien said the other Dwarves lived in the East; he talks about the Easterlings having had dealings with the Dwarves in the past. Dwarves and other underground-dwelling, treasure-guarding beings similar to them can be found in Norse, Germanic, Celtic and Slavic myth and folklore so that's the sort of culture they belong with. So no, what you said there doesn't really make sense, it's just SSG following in MERP's footsteps and contriving an excuse for Dwarves being in the south as well. Lore-wise they can't be 'from' the South: in the already unlikely circumstance they'd wandered that far (they weren't much for wandering far from home unless they were forced to), that wouldn't make them look so different too so that part likewise makes no sense.
    Does seem like SSG is using some creative license here in how they interpret the culture and geography of the eastern dwarven clans. I have noticed though that the Longbeards always seem to be in a state of permanent exile - no matter where there are or for how long, it's never their true home, because they always end up driven out of the previous one! Perhaps the other dwarven clans of the east have similar problems? Who knows how far they could have spread over the years.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCastle View Post
    Does seem like SSG is using some creative license here in how they interpret the culture and geography of the eastern dwarven clans. I have noticed though that the Longbeards always seem to be in a state of permanent exile - no matter where there are or for how long, it's never their true home, because they always end up driven out of the previous one! Perhaps the other dwarven clans of the east have similar problems? Who knows how far they could have spread over the years.
    The western Dwarves had had a particularly hard time of it; I don't think Tolkien imagined quite the same sort of epic bad luck (or ill fate) plaguing the eastern ones. But yeah, the Dwarves in general did have some bad things happen to them, in particular after they'd accepted the gift of the Seven Rings - after it turned out that the curse on those couldn't turn the Dwarf-lords into wraiths, Sauron had reclaimed three of the rings and the other four had been consumed by dragons so obviously some bad stuff had happened elsewhere.

    If we assume that one house of the eastern Dwarves did have to hit the road and head south, though, that wouldn't account for them being so different in appearance to the other Dwarves. That's a bit more creative licence than lore allows for - the apparent idea that they'd somehow need to be in the same way Men would is rather broken because the Dwarves had been made 'strong to endure' to begin with and in particular, they were far less bothered by heat. (Plus they lived under mountains and didn't go out much!).

    The one thing that SSG should stop doing, though, is having Dwarves here, there and everywhere in seemingly endless profusion - like they seem to think that every area of mountains ought to have its own bunch of Dwarves and that's gotten silly, as there weren't supposed to be umpteen of them, nor should they have spread all over.

  17. #17
    I thought those ancient Egyptian looking dwarves looked pretty cool. I certainly don’t mind the creative license used to make them.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by BigLotroFan View Post
    I thought those ancient Egyptian looking dwarves looked pretty cool. I certainly don’t mind the creative license used to make them.
    What about that looks ancient Egyptian to you? Really not seeing it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    What about that looks ancient Egyptian to you? Really not seeing it.
    To me their gold armor and head dress brings to mind king tuts golden mask.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    They're not in sources we have access to use, so we need to use our own.

    MoL


    Tell us friends, are they all kings, or some of them are Queens?

    in dialogs Drógar and Jegin are called by Her/She - but they have male voice acting, so where is the mistake?

    In the Quest Thunder of Zirag Zigil

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgahad View Post
    in dialogs Drógar and Jegin are called by Her/She - but they have male voice acting, so where is the mistake?
    Per the deed "The War-camp of Thráin":

    King Brítu the Redeful pledged the Temámir to the Haban'akkâ of Thráin. Alas, after a string of devastating losses during the Sixth War of the Dwarves and Orcs, all the remained of the royal line was Jegín, a young princess of the Temámir- now named and so honoured as King by her people.
    So, Jegín is female but still holds the title of "King" because she is the sole ruler, while the Queen would be the King's wife.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgahad View Post
    Tell us friends, are they all kings, or some of them are Queens?

    in dialogs Drógar and Jegin are called by Her/She - but they have male voice acting, so where is the mistake?

    In the Quest Thunder of Zirag Zigil
    I took that quest to mean that the leader is called King regardless of if the dwarf is male or female. At least by those clans. Maybe it was a mistake by the writer but I’m going with my own explanation.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BigLotroFan View Post
    I took that quest to mean that the leader is called King regardless of if the dwarf is male or female. At least by those clans. Maybe it was a mistake by the writer but I’m going with my own explanation.
    Yes, sometimes in history, women were called King, not Queen

    but those dwarves, have male voice and male look - comparing to Dis, or thar woman dwarf from the beginning of u 30 - they at least have women look.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by BigLotroFan View Post
    To me their gold armor and head dress brings to mind king tuts golden mask.
    It's nowhere even close. What's shown on that mask of Tutankhamun is him wearing a nemes, that's the striped head-cloth that the Pharaoh traditionally wore. There was a head-band to keep it sitting neatly on his head (that's the bit with the little figure of a snake on it), but the rest was just cloth pleated to drape that way.

    Ancient Egyptian armour looked nothing like that, either.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by BigLotroFan View Post
    I took that quest to mean that the leader is called King regardless of if the dwarf is male or female. At least by those clans. Maybe it was a mistake by the writer but I’m going with my own explanation.
    It's dodgy writing either way. The Dwarves were super patriarchal when it came to who was in charge (like how when the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves were made, the women had been literally just an afterthought*) so it'd always be a guy in charge. Makes sense if you consider that kings are meant to be war-leaders whereas as far as lore goes, Dwarf-women never went to war.

    *Just imagine what Yavanna would have had to say to Aulë about that. As it was she got her own back by making the Ents, so that the Dwarves couldn't just cut down all the trees they wanted.

 

 
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