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  1. #51
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    Doesn't the story telling have to remain in early 20th century England or Middle-earth. Maybe I don't understand. Weirdly I'm thinking 60s Batman chat bubbles, any skins available?

    The façade of the world building passes muster. The music should complement but at times past, I guess ego, has made it dominate. I blame the sycophants and the need to please them. Too many years of my GPU thrashing away and watching blocks load and now after all that rendering another set of objects and triggers to load on top of the copy/paste world-building shortcut now in play.

    But the artists get to have better GPU than most of us so they aren't running at 100% on the selection screen maybe.

    As for the game:
    What scruples do we have and what's our breaking point and for balance how strong is our self-denial/belief mechanism? How much do we flip between to justify our actions? Not sure there is anyone left playing to understand the question.

    "If you let them do it they will keep on doing it." Don Lemon, CNN. May 3 21

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    Again, you seem to not read or understand what I am writing, I even said, that the worldbuilding, the music is good. But I stand with my point that the storytelling is not up to modern standards anymore.
    I'm not sure what kind of storytelling you would want. It's middle Earth. Modern standards don't really apply. Maybe if you explain better what kind of storytelling you'd like to see, and how that would help people with their distaste for grinding trait points as they progress through said story, it would be a bit easier to understand you. Perhaps you are referring back to your point about continuously running instances with friends? So quest tells you to run X instance, then after that, run Y instance and so forth. Kinda like powerlevelling - but with trait points attached to it.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I'm not sure what kind of storytelling you would want. It's middle Earth. Modern standards don't really apply. Maybe if you explain better what kind of storytelling you'd like to see, and how that would help people with their distaste for grinding trait points as they progress through said story, it would be a bit easier to understand you. Perhaps you are referring back to your point about continuously running instances with friends? So quest tells you to run X instance, then after that, run Y instance and so forth. Kinda like powerlevelling - but with trait points attached to it.
    Storytelling is not about WHAT you are telling, but rather about HOW you are telling it. Your Story can be exciting as it gets, but if you miss on transfering it to the user in a proper way, it doesnt matter. Things that help doing that could be cutscenes or voice acting, things that make the user feel more immerse, than just making them read 10000 of questboxes.

    EDIT: I remember times when you had a cutscene every 3 or 4 bookquests, and characters sometimes had actual proper voice acting.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    Storytelling is not about WHAT you are telling, but rather about HOW you are telling it. Your Story can be exciting as it gets, but if you miss on transfering it to the user in a proper way, it doesnt matter. Things that help doing that could be cutscenes or voice acting, things that make the user feel more immerse, than just making them read 10000 of questboxes.
    Heh. You reminded me of my nephew. Not that you are in any way like him. After quickly approaching a quest-giver and accepting what he had to offer, he would look at me and shout, "Now tell me what to shoot!" and within two seconds follow-up with "There's a guy! I bet we kill him. Charge!" He would skip every single cutscene we encountered and continuously begged me to give him currency to buy better gear at the Auction House. This was a reoccurring thing that would happen no matter what game we played. We started playing when he was 14 years old. To him, storytelling was automatic. If there was something in the distance to interact with, that was it. He would never read the instructions, never read what the objective was, and never knew where to go next. All he wanted to do was go where the quest pointed to and kill things.

    Which is kind of disheartening for a Lord of The Rings fan. Every time I go back through my screenshots and notes when reviewing a zone, I think "They did a lot of cool things!" I loved how much voice work was put into the story missions in War of Three Peaks. I loved the voice-work during the new Agoroth instance. But I don't think there is a single person in my kin who hasn't once said during a scene that played out, "Man these guys talk a lot." I'd really like it if more people did the Scholar quest chain that follows the Anduin River north. But a lot of people just don't care to watch ghost figures act out the past, added voice-work, and various cutscenes to hear about the history.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdJedi View Post
    Heh. You reminded me of my nephew. Not that you are in any way like him. After quickly approaching a quest-giver and accepting what he had to offer, he would look at me and shout, "Now tell me what to shoot!" and within two seconds follow-up with "There's a guy! I bet we kill him. Charge!" He would skip every single cutscene we encountered and continuously begged me to give him currency to buy better gear at the Auction House. This was a reoccurring thing that would happen no matter what game we played. We started playing when he was 14 years old. To him, storytelling was automatic. If there was something in the distance to interact with, that was it. He would never read the instructions, never read what the objective was, and never knew where to go next. All he wanted to do was go where the quest pointed to and kill things.

    Which is kind of disheartening for a Lord of The Rings fan. Every time I go back through my screenshots and notes when reviewing a zone, I think "They did a lot of cool things!" I loved how much voice work was put into the story missions in War of Three Peaks. I loved the voice-work during the new Agoroth instance. But I don't think there is a single person in my kin who hasn't once said during a scene that played out, "Man these guys talk a lot." I'd really like it if more people did the Scholar quest chain that follows the Anduin River north. But a lot of people just don't care to watch ghost figures act out the past, added voice-work, and various cutscenes to hear about the history.
    Yeah I'm really not like your nephew. I played divinity 1/2 and did every possible sidequest(which required a lot of reading), or Fallout: New Vegas and explored every corner of the map. But Lotro is a MMO and sadly quests are very repetitive. Thats why having to run the same repetitive quests over and over for trait points is mind-numbingly boring. Doing that stuff with multiple alts because the story is great? Delusional D:

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    Storytelling is not about WHAT you are telling, but rather about HOW you are telling it. Your Story can be exciting as it gets, but if you miss on transfering it to the user in a proper way, it doesnt matter. Things that help doing that could be cutscenes or voice acting, things that make the user feel more immerse, than just making them read 10000 of questboxes.

    EDIT: I remember times when you had a cutscene every 3 or 4 bookquests, and characters sometimes had actual proper voice acting.
    So, you think doing story content is boring after the second of third time through it, and you think cutscenes and voice acting may solve that for you? I've no objections to that. I don't know what it will do to satiate the people that do not wish to do quest content at all for trait points, but if it would satisfy more people story-wise, then it's good. I don't know what it would solve in relation to the topic of this thread though, because text, cutscenes, voice, it's all the same for those that get bored easily, and once done a few times, they will not want to do it all again, no matter which way it's delivered.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    . Doing that stuff with multiple alts because the story is great? Delusional D:
    Well, like i said before, I'll stay delusional thank you very much.

    I do the quest lines, look at the scenery, enjoy the hobbit banter with multiple alts because I really enjoy it. I love the storyline at the beginning of The Great River with the female elf falling in love with a male human.


    Fallout New Vegas? I like Fallout 3 a lot better. Fawkes is DA MAN. And Charon blowing his boss away was classic.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    So, you think doing story content is boring after the second of third time through it, and you think cutscenes and voice acting may solve that for you? I've no objections to that. I don't know what it will do to satiate the people that do not wish to do quest content at all for trait points, but if it would satisfy more people story-wise, then it's good. I don't know what it would solve in relation to the topic of this thread though, because text, cutscenes, voice, it's all the same for those that get bored easily, and once done a few times, they will not want to do it all again, no matter which way it's delivered.
    Thats what I think yes, but thats also how good storytelling is usually done. I also never said that will solve anything, because no matter what, having to repeat repetitive quests over and over is no matter how you put it, mind-numbingly boring. And thats not the fault of the lotro developers or anyone else, because thats just how most MMORPs work if you want more alts (ff14 requires only one char at high level afaik).
    But you can add stuff, like valars and purchasable trait points, to give people a way to avoid it. Or you could actually just remove trait points from the most boring stuff, like old anorien deeds and epic battles.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    Thats what I think yes, but thats also how good storytelling is usually done. I also never said that will solve anything, because no matter what, having to repeat repetitive quests over and over is no matter how you put it, mind-numbingly boring. And thats not the fault of the lotro developers or anyone else, because thats just how most MMORPs work if you want more alts (ff14 requires only one char at high level afaik).
    But you can add stuff, like valars and purchasable trait points, to give people a way to avoid it. Or you could actually just remove trait points from the most boring stuff, like old anorien deeds and epic battles.
    I would really like it if they trait points were just based on level. I like to choose different paths for different characters. But tell me, what interesting thing is there to do at cap? You complain about repetitive questing after so many alts but last I checked repetition is all that is there.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    I would really like it if they trait points were just based on level. I like to choose different paths for different characters. But tell me, what interesting thing is there to do at cap? You complain about repetitive questing after so many alts but last I checked repetition is all that is there.
    Like I already said, the Multiplayer part of Massively Multiplayer Online is what makes the game enjoyable for me. And arguably the best way to do that is by running raids/instances with other people. Preferably with multiple different alts on 130 for change.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    Like I already said, the Multiplayer part of Massively Multiplayer Online is what makes the game enjoyable for me. And arguably the best way to do that is by running raids/instances with other people. Preferably with multiple different alts on 130 for change.
    Very repetitive.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    Very repetitive.
    You are following a previously started argument here, which was not a particularly good one.
    It doesn't matter if cap content is not interesting for you. There are enough people that play it. But in opposite to questing, noone forces players through a year of raids before they are allowed to play solo.

    That does *not* mean that all trait points should be available just by leveling. But it means that a few of the mechanisms should be modified. IMO the old system of skill deeds and class quests worked quite well, with a few obvious exceptions (rarely used skills and the group class quests in Moria). The new system has a few excessive point requirements and those should be flattened out.

    I expect that people will come up that people can play in groups before being at cap, but sorry, this is ridiculous. As long as we do not have proper and rewarding cross-level play, LOTRO at lower levels will remain an MO, which means the "massive" part is missing. MOs are nice, like playing NWN or Baldur's Gate on LAN. But there was no need for a server structure, high bandwidth networks and all that upkeep cost.
    Epic battles were a half-hearted and abandoned concept for an improvement, but they failed to use their potential AND it required players to buy a cap expansion to cross-level receive grouping at low levels. Not even talking about quality yet.

    Personally I would like to press a button, get back to L50 with a few others (including new players), play an instance, get a useable reward (e.g. ash) and be done. But this is not the case. I need to find a few others, invite a few new players, level a char to 50, gear up, play that instance, parts of the group might not join, cannot play with my cap kin for weeks of my play time, need to use a stone of the tortoise and so on. And if we go on to 58, we can no longer go back to 50.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    You are following a previously started argument here, which was not a particularly good one.
    It doesn't matter if cap content is not interesting for you. There are enough people that play it. But in opposite to questing, noone forces players through a year of raids before they are allowed to play solo.

    That does *not* mean that all trait points should be available just by leveling. But it means that a few of the mechanisms should be modified. IMO the old system of skill deeds and class quests worked quite well, with a few obvious exceptions (rarely used skills and the group class quests in Moria). The new system has a few excessive point requirements and those should be flattened out.

    I expect that people will come up that people can play in groups before being at cap, but sorry, this is ridiculous. As long as we do not have proper and rewarding cross-level play, LOTRO at lower levels will remain an MO, which means the "massive" part is missing. MOs are nice, like playing NWN or Baldur's Gate on LAN. But there was no need for a server structure, high bandwidth networks and all that upkeep cost.
    Epic battles were a half-hearted and abandoned concept for an improvement, but they failed to use their potential AND it required players to buy a cap expansion to cross-level receive grouping at low levels. Not even talking about quality yet.

    Personally I would like to press a button, get back to L50 with a few others (including new players), play an instance, get a useable reward (e.g. ash) and be done. But this is not the case. I need to find a few others, invite a few new players, level a char to 50, gear up, play that instance, parts of the group might not join, cannot play with my cap kin for weeks of my play time, need to use a stone of the tortoise and so on. And if we go on to 58, we can no longer go back to 50.
    The way I see it that some of the trait points in other trees give a nice bonus to my chosen tree. This becomes very importent when playing blue hunter or LM since the blue trees don't necessarily have enough dps boost. LM is bad in some lvl ranges since they nerfed the pets. There is a trait in yellow for red mini that helps with procs and shorter cd's=less death. Do I need all trait points? No. But if I want a nice build (yes, even a landscape player cares about that) I need more when I just get levelling and all the extra ones either determine the path I have to take and/or are locked behind a big grind. Sure there are some skills I easily max, funny thing is that the grouping of skills always has at least one outlier...sometimes even requiring another tree. I haven't played with the old system long enough to say if it was better or worse. The best way to go would be cap and add more points in each addition to the game even if in lower zones or even exsisting ones to give choices on the path a character takes. They did the first already.

    I would say that up to lvl 100 we have some nice choices concerning gearing, then we got essences, guild crafting was removed and imbuement became necessary. When I look at the revamped crafting, it is for end game (solo/fellowship) grinders that require on level crafters to get the recipes. And why do we get quest rewards that have healing on it as will classes when I need dps gear like other classes to play landscape?

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    The way I see it that some of the trait points in other trees give a nice bonus to my chosen tree. This becomes very importent when playing blue hunter or LM since the blue trees don't necessarily have enough dps boost. LM is bad in some lvl ranges since they nerfed the pets. There is a trait in yellow for red mini that helps with procs and shorter cd's=less death. Do I need all trait points? No. But if I want a nice build (yes, even a landscape player cares about that) I need more when I just get levelling and all the extra ones either determine the path I have to take and/or are locked behind a big grind. Sure there are some skills I easily max, funny thing is that the grouping of skills always has at least one outlier...sometimes even requiring another tree. I haven't played with the old system long enough to say if it was better or worse. The best way to go would be cap and add more points in each addition to the game even if in lower zones or even exsisting ones to give choices on the path a character takes. They did the first already.
    Agreed, the second might be a solution for the other trait points.

    I am definitely not going to tell you that you "don't need that on landscape". Landscape players have their own targets and there should be a clear separation between "standard" upgrades and "special rewards". Special rewards are reset at every cap, standard upgrades should be what everyone has. Why? Because it is impossible to design meaningful landscape if people go in there with *everything* and with *nothing*. Player skill is on top of that, but there is no need to already make things wrong before.
    Last edited by thinx; May 05 2021 at 09:41 AM.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    Agreed, the second might be a solution for the other trait points.

    I am definitely not going to tell you that you "don't need that on landscape". Landscape players have their own targets and there should be a clear separation between "standard" upgrades and "special rewards". Special rewards are reset at every cap, standard upgrades should be what everyone has. Why? Because it is impossible to design meaningful landscape if people go in there with *everything* and with *nothing*. Player skill is on top of that, but there is no need to already make things wrong before.
    Standard upgrades are just quest gear with yellow not necessarily required essences, a free lvl ILI (I have the crystals maxed but not everybody does), lvl trait points (only have these maxed on my main), maybe 5 maxed virtues if even that much. Crafting used to fill the gap between best instance gear and quest gear but doesn't anymore. I don't even know how many gear upgrades we already had at 130 but vxp requirements are shooting out the roof. I compared my quest chest piece with the new gold crafted which has insane mat requirements for somebody who doesn't play much cap game and it's nearly double the stats. So either Gundabad will be impossible for me or one shot for others. Just glad I'm not interested in a second under the ground environment.

    Looking at all this, trait points are really the least to worry about. The worst offender still is the ILI because without a decent weapon/class item nothing dies. So new characters stay before Mordor for 2 reasons, the story is finished and a new one starts, requirements and gearing get from worse to really bad after that.

    I agree, there should be a difference between standard and special rewards but not as much as right now. Are most players of Lotro are really interested in the ever evolving gear/essence upgrades that outshine even the best raid rewards at the same lvl? I for one am tired of it and just want to play the game without ILI headache and constant new gear/essence requirements to be able to continue. Cap game is way to boring for that. Everything is instanced and dark after NMirkwood.
    Last edited by wispsong; May 05 2021 at 10:04 AM.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    I agree, there should be a difference between standard and special rewards but not as much as right now. Are most players of Lotro are really interested in the ever evolving gear/essence upgrades that outshine even the best raid rewards at the same lvl? I for one am tired of it and just want to play the game without ILI headache and constant new gear/essence requirements to be able to continue. Cap game is way to boring for that. Everything is instanced and dark after NMirkwood.
    The span of current on-level rewards is definitely too much, but I would keep this separate from trait point or ILI discussions. One topic at a time :-). Gearing at a specific cap is a temporary problem that will go away or will be reset with the next cap. We're discussing the permanent problems that remain.

 

 
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