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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post
    I am thinking about the long-term health of this game. I don't mind the quest-gated trait points but the trait point behind a entire meta deed is ridiculous.
    If they keep Rohan/Gondor questing as it is, I wouldn't mind it as I enjoy questing.
    The point of this post was the times have changed and these new players are getting discouraged to see endless grinds everywhere they turn their heads.
    I personally hate the class deeds, promotion points and Old Anorien questing and regional meta deed most.
    Minas Tirith is frustrating to navigate, especially when a quest takes you to the upper/lower circles and back and forth. Other than that, I am fine with Old Anorien quests.
    Class deeds are ridiculously long and daily uses cap way too soon. (I propose lifting the max usages and cutting down the deeds if they're kept in the game)

    Oh, and I haven't mentioned the ILI grind, which is by far the worst grind known to newcomers even though the grind is miles better how it used to be.

    Overall, I am fine with the quest-gated and book quest-gated points and I agree that they should remain in the game.
    Again, I am just thinking about the long-term health of the game.

    If it were up to me, I would move the Central Gondor trait points behind Minas Morgul questing and remove the Old Anorien quests meta deed trait points and move one behind Elderslade questing.
    Move the class deed and promotion point trait points to Dunland. Cut back on trait point progression from levels 7-105 to every 3rd level (34 trait points this way vs 54 trait points from every 2nd from lvl 7-105)
    and putting 1 behind each area in Moria. and East Rohan and Mordor (11 from Moria, 7 from East Rohan and 5 from Mordor = 23 total trait points) and bare the rest.
    Then finally cutting back on the trait points you can earn from Epic quests, since we don't need a new trait point every chapter, and putting 8 trait points into Southern Mirkwood. 1 trait point for each area.

    That way you will need Mines of Moria, Siege of Mirkwood, Rise of Isengard, Riders of Rohan, Helm's Deep, Mordor, Minas Morgul and War of the Three Peaks if you want more character progression.
    Not to mention that SSG makes sales from expansion packs since those are going to be vital for endgame instances raids.
    Okay so this is a complete 180 from your original post. This I can get behind, as it includes a variety of ways to "earn" trait points through content, while removing the worse of the trait point grinds.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    You'd be hard pushed to kill a training dummy. You can spar with a kin mate. There are ways around it.
    Yes, but this is IMO the point where earning those deeds leaves the road of "normal playing" and moves towards grinding away artificial hindrances with artificial methods. There are several deeds (including the Far Anorien one) that force players into specific behavior that is not part of "just" playing. Concerning dummy/spar: It does not feel legendary or even worth calling a "deed". And what should the title be? the battle simulator? The dummy slayer?

    There are other deeds (certain quest chains) that force players into very specific content for a quite long time. We should have more/alternate routes for these cases.

  3. #28
    I understand your frustration. It's an easy fix in the scheme of things. Sadly, it seems SSG bases their descions, on the dollar sign. Not on making the game more enjoyable for their players.

    Before SSG does anything with the trait point system they need to communicate their intentions for the LI revamp, and give us some insight on what they're planning and when it will be releasing.

    They really need to make sure EVERY class has a viable trait tree for ALL content in this game.
    I'm Totally Not Roktata...

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primrosy View Post
    I understand your frustration. It's an easy fix in the scheme of things. Sadly, it seems SSG bases their descions, on the dollar sign. Not on making the game more enjoyable for their players.
    Yes. Maybe I am just no longer within the market segment of this game. The obvious strategy of this game is to have 4 factions. One that plays 24/7, one that pays 24/7, one that is frustrated 24/7 (well, not 24/7, this is just a figure of speech) and one that reduces the game to a very small window that allows to get by. (e.g. only play landscape, only play stone of the tortoise, etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Primrosy View Post
    Before SSG does anything with the trait point system they need to communicate their intentions for the LI revamp, and give us some insight on what they're planning and when it will be releasing.
    Not necessarily. They can easily fix availability of trait points and ILI material without revamping the systems. They can add a few more ways to get the trait points, they can reduce the grind for ILI material and they can add a way to apply a stack of ILI material in one go.
    All of this does not require a system revamp. No change in traits or legacies. Just in availability. Same for VXP.

    Balancing is a different topic. Trying to balance and revamp in one go is IMO more difficult.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeirdJedi View Post
    A couple years ago, I decided to perform an experiment. So many people told me of how important it was to have all these extra things for my minstrel as I leveled it up. Of course, all this information was pretty useless to me since it was based on the fact that I would be going to use my minstrel in higher tiers. So what I decided to do was VIP for a month, utilize every experience bonus available to me, and only do on-level quests.

    My results were pretty astonishing. You don't need any extra trait points since all the ones you get from leveling up will round out all the abilities in The Warrior-Skald tree. I didn't have much to contribute to virtues since I didn't have many deeds finished. I also found out that I didn't need to get any scrolls outside the initial investment of imbuement.

    I went with a hybrid dagger and songbook that was good for both healing and damage. Helm's Deep was rough around the edges without a proper bridle. By the time I reached Central Gondor, I definitely needed my legendary items maxed out (and then eventually imbued). Otherwise I was perfectly fine doing the content just as long as I kept applying Star-Lit crystals.

    In summary - no extra trait points, no swapping gear, no virtues, no scrolls, nothing from instances, nothing crafted, and nothing passed down from my main character. The only thing I needed was the gear from the quests (which some came from the Epic) and about 1 Star-Lit Crystal applied every level from 100 - 130 (alternate between weapon and songbook) on top of the initial 6 before imbuement... as a Minstrel.



    This is why I agree with Arnenna. If you really want to be competitive, go right ahead. They've given you plenty of things to do. There's a reason why people say there is never an end to playing MMOs. There will always be something there to strive for.
    Up until Mordor you could ignore every game mechanic in the game and get by if you picked up quest gear. Many on VIP would be over level just from bonuses, it was only nearing each level cap that you could start to struggle. But those who continued to ignore these mechanics, as it was the way they had always played, found themselves in a confused heap of trouble - Mordor and beyond. If you had never bothered to understand LIs from level 50 you aren't the type to suddenly "get them" at 105.

    Imbuing and a ton of crystal at 100+ gets you walking around with the weaponry of a 125+ level. You only have access to that many crystals if you've been farming festivals for years, have tons of gold for the AH or a load of LP - until the mote to crystal introduction and you don't prioritise the dressing up game.

    On a minstrel specifically your Warrior-skald is easy enough but without choice traits from elsewhere you are significantly disadvantaged and you can't really know it if you haven't experienced the difference. Again if you habitually decline the hints the game provides along the way you just fall further behind the curve and just face a whole heap of grinds or would need to throw cash at dubious store alternatives.

    Advocating people to play in such a way is just setting them up to be store junkies later on, else landscape will be utter misery in the late game.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    Up until Mordor you could ignore every game mechanic in the game and get by if you picked up quest gear. Many on VIP would be over level just from bonuses, it was only nearing each level cap that you could start to struggle. But those who continued to ignore these mechanics, as it was the way they had always played, found themselves in a confused heap of trouble - Mordor and beyond. If you had never bothered to understand LIs from level 50 you aren't the type to suddenly "get them" at 105.

    Imbuing and a ton of crystal at 100+ gets you walking around with the weaponry of a 125+ level. You only have access to that many crystals if you've been farming festivals for years, have tons of gold for the AH or a load of LP - until the mote to crystal introduction and you don't prioritise the dressing up game.

    On a minstrel specifically your Warrior-skald is easy enough but without choice traits from elsewhere you are significantly disadvantaged and you can't really know it if you haven't experienced the difference. Again if you habitually decline the hints the game provides along the way you just fall further behind the curve and just face a whole heap of grinds or would need to throw cash at dubious store alternatives.

    Advocating people to play in such a way is just setting them up to be store junkies later on, else landscape will be utter misery in the late game.
    This is the whole point. This right here. People are looking at store bypass and thinking, this horrid grind is here to promote the store bypass. Yup - it is, which is why it will remain. they sell a heapload of Valar products and giving away what is included in those products will make sales drop. So, that's never going to happen.

    My point is - ignore the store bypass, do the grind. Work it early, include what you can along the way, then chase what's left later on and hopefully if you levelled up with the grind in mind - that won't be too much. Ignoring the grind until the final hurdle is just asking for trouble and lots of runback grind. "Normal play" is being brought into it, as in, we should be able to just do quests, through x regions and then everything should fall into place at the end. It's never worked that way, nor will it, it takes some thought and work, and yes, moving off that straight line of play. If a class skill is needed and the dummy or sparring breaks immersion too much for anyone, then pull heavy on mobs and you'll stay in combat long enough. There are ways around all of it, so best to start thinking about using them, while ignoring the store bypass IMO. My take on alts that are just playing the game is the store bypass doesn't exist, because, I never consider it or even look at it. I plan early straight out of the intro and while my rotations are a bit peculiar until about level 60 - everything gets covered, without slowing me down any. No store required.
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  7. #32
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    sry guys, but everyone who levels more than 2-3 toons to 130 through questing must be delusional

    Not even speaking of old Anorien and Epic Battles

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    My point is - ignore the store bypass, do the grind. Work it early, include what you can along the way, then chase what's left later on and hopefully if you levelled up with the grind in mind - that won't be too much. Ignoring the grind until the final hurdle is just asking for trouble and lots of runback grind. "Normal play" is being brought into it, as in, we should be able to just do quests, through x regions and then everything should fall into place at the end. It's never worked that way, nor will it, it takes some thought and work, and yes, moving off that straight line of play. If a class skill is needed and the dummy or sparring breaks immersion too much for anyone, then pull heavy on mobs and you'll stay in combat long enough.
    The problem with that approach is that it fails the plausibility check. Why? Because it is still valid when grind becomes insane. The question is not if things are available at normal play. The question is how *far* you have to move away from normal play. And, having a look at current LOTRO, doing all the trait, ILI and VXP grind (ignoring essences for now) is not done by simply moving a "little" away. My guess is that a leveling player doing all of that would spend at least double the time of normal playing in intermediate grind.
    Example: Playing from 100 to 130 through all available content has equal or less quests than just leveling one ILI set from scratch to 83. And then people do VXP. And go to the dummy. And do reputation to get some travel skills. And so on. It is the sum that is too much and this requires to cut something at *every* piece that is contained in this sum.
    So a clear no. It is not about doing that little extra off the straight line of play. It is moving away so much that normal play becomes the little extra that one can do from time to time.
    And the result is that people end up at cap with all that "undone" grind.

    Concerning trait points from skills: One design error in the trait revamp was the idea that people would play *all* trees and get all their deeds done.
    This was accompanied by the idea to make only 2 tree slots available (even for VIP...), the fact that some trees were not really meaningful in solo (tank/heal) and the fact that a few of the trees were so unbalanced that they were not played for *years*. Some are still not played today, a few became better, but another few became a lot worse and are no longer played today.

    The solution was *already* present in the initial revamp: Count several skills from different trees for one deed. These deeds were IMO based on actual skill uses statistics *before* the trait revamp. The thing that is missing was another iteration, based on the actual skill use statistics *after* the revamp.
    Last edited by thinx; May 04 2021 at 10:10 AM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    sry guys, but everyone who levels more than 2-3 toons to 130 through questing must be delusional

    Not even speaking of old Anorien and Epic Battles
    I really don't understand this one. What's wrong with questing? I like questing. You get a lot through questing, you get slayer deeds, location deeds, skill deeds, making money from vendor trash and so on.


    And that's not even including enjoying the storylines, scenery, and zone soundtracks.


    I'll stay delusional thank you very much!
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    This is the whole point. This right here. People are looking at store bypass and thinking, this horrid grind is here to promote the store bypass. Yup - it is, which is why it will remain. they sell a heapload of Valar products and giving away what is included in those products will make sales drop. So, that's never going to happen.

    My point is - ignore the store bypass, do the grind. Work it early, include what you can along the way, then chase what's left later on and hopefully if you levelled up with the grind in mind - that won't be too much. Ignoring the grind until the final hurdle is just asking for trouble and lots of runback grind. "Normal play" is being brought into it, as in, we should be able to just do quests, through x regions and then everything should fall into place at the end. It's never worked that way, nor will it, it takes some thought and work, and yes, moving off that straight line of play. If a class skill is needed and the dummy or sparring breaks immersion too much for anyone, then pull heavy on mobs and you'll stay in combat long enough. There are ways around all of it, so best to start thinking about using them, while ignoring the store bypass IMO. My take on alts that are just playing the game is the store bypass doesn't exist, because, I never consider it or even look at it. I plan early straight out of the intro and while my rotations are a bit peculiar until about level 60 - everything gets covered, without slowing me down any. No store required.
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    The problem with that approach is that it fails the plausibility check. Why? Because it is still valid when grind becomes insane. The question is not if things are available at normal play. The question is how *far* you have to move away from normal play. And, having a look at current LOTRO, doing all the trait, ILI and VXP grind (ignoring essences for now) is not done by simply moving a "little" away. My guess is that a leveling player doing all of that would spend at least double the time of normal playing in intermediate grind.
    Example: Playing from 100 to 130 through all available content has equal or less quests than just leveling one ILI set from scratch to 83. And then people do VXP. And go to the dummy. And do reputation to get some travel skills. And so on. It is the sum that is too much and this requires to cut something at *every* piece that is contained in this sum.
    So a clear no. It is not about doing that little extra off the straight line of play. It is moving away so much that normal play becomes the little extra that one can do from time to time.
    And the result is that people end up at cap with all that "undone" grind.
    Exactly this. Class skills require an insane number and for some another tree has to be used. Slayer deeds have grown insane (some due to # but others due to little mob count) and even explorer meta has to be done with wiki open due to chests and markers. At least the pages were numbered and for the most part just of the road. Do this all on one character, no problem, a second is ok but after that I just want to see the wonderful world they created and not worry over trait points, vxp, ILI, essences etc. There was always a grind, yes... but just having played through Eriador, it has grown insane. Quest and explorer deeds are done just playing the game 90%, slayer deeds might need a little and so do reputations but nothing like we have in some of the later regions which go beyond kindred. Virtues are nice but not needed and capped at half the level and no LI to worry about. Most trait points also just come with levelling. The game was much simpler then. Now we have ever growing systems that become a big hurdle for new characters to catch up with. Grind while doing the region just doesn't go along with enjoying it on several characters.

    Add to that that crafting always helped equipping new characters which has fallen to the wayside with insane grind and level requirement. I still enjoy the game but from staying current and playing characters to at cap I have gone to level new characters up to Mordor. At least I can get away with little grind until then. (Just got new ILIs in DA and what a headache these are).

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    I really don't understand this one. What's wrong with questing? I like questing. You get a lot through questing, you get slayer deeds, location deeds, skill deeds, making money from vendor trash and so on.


    And that's not even including enjoying the storylines, scenery, and zone soundtracks.


    I'll stay delusional thank you very much!
    I guess I'm delusional as well.

  12. #37
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    Yes, questing is fine. If you do it once, or maybe twice. Even on the first "playthrough" the quests become really boring pretty fast, because its always just more of the same stuff. Why would you do it 4 or 5 or 6 times then?

    And the "story argument" is just .. have you guys ever played/read a good story? This is only acceptable because its lord of the rings. The writing, voice acting, delivering of the story is just not good or modern enough anymore.
    10 Years ago when I still was a kid, klicking through endless questbubbles with no voice acting, was kind of passable. The worldbuilding and music is fine, yeah. That still doesnt justify the "but the story is good" argument of a really aged story delivery system and mediocre writing.

    Have you guys played something like Divinity, Witcher or Mass Effect? Those contain a good main story and really good written sidequests as well, with awesome music, voice acting etc.
    And arguing "THESE ARENT MMORPGS THO" is nod valid. Yes they arent, but that first of all doesn't make lotros story better and second, if you are arguing that mmorpgs have worse stories on default than games of this kind, you already lost the argument because you admit mmorpgs have a worse story in general.

    Aside from what I said, I still really like the game and hope it will be continued for a long time, but the story-part is just not what you should be emphasizing when trying to argue for tedious questing for trait points.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    Yes, questing is fine. If you do it once, or maybe twice. Even on the first "playthrough" the quests become really boring pretty fast, because its always just more of the same stuff.
    And running the same instance, or even few instances doesn't get old fast?

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post

    Why would you do it 4 or 5 or 6 times then?
    Because it beats running WP about 150 - 200 times. And please, don't speak of "challenge" because there is no challenge involved in that.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    And running the same instance, or even few instances doesn't get old fast?



    Because it beats running WP about 150 - 200 times. And please, don't speak of "challenge" because there is no challenge involved in that.

    After you run it enough times yes, but then you get new stuff to run and it will get boring way slower, because you do it with other people, thats why it is a multiplayer game, you know.

    And well.. thats the point of lotro being an MMO, the interaction with other players and having fun together

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    Yes, questing is fine. If you do it once, or maybe twice. Even on the first "playthrough" the quests become really boring pretty fast, because its always just more of the same stuff. Why would you do it 4 or 5 or 6 times then?

    And the "story argument" is just .. have you guys ever played/read a good story? This is only acceptable because its lord of the rings. The writing, voice acting, delivering of the story is just not good or modern enough anymore.
    10 Years ago when I still was a kid, klicking through endless questbubbles with no voice acting, was kind of passable. The worldbuilding and music is fine, yeah. That still doesnt justify the "but the story is good" argument of a really aged story delivery system and mediocre writing.

    Have you guys played something like Divinity, Witcher or Mass Effect? Those contain a good main story and really good written sidequests as well, with awesome music, voice acting etc.
    And arguing "THESE ARENT MMORPGS THO" is nod valid. Yes they arent, but that first of all doesn't make lotros story better and second, if you are arguing that mmorpgs have worse stories on default than games of this kind, you already lost the argument because you admit mmorpgs have a worse story in general.

    Aside from what I said, I still really like the game and hope it will be continued for a long time, but the story-part is just not what you should be emphasizing when trying to argue for tedious questing for trait points.
    I HATE Witcher. It's a very over rated RPG. I've tried several times to give that game series a chance but never got past an hour.


    I really gave this some serious thought, and well, I'm just going to stay delusional. I like questing, and yes, I like the story lines. Maybe for you the quests become boring really fast, but not for me.

    Different players have different tastes. You think the quest lines are boring. I don't. Instances bore the Hell out of me, and raids are really not my play style, Don't like them.

    I level a charactr 4, 5, or 6 times because it's fun. I'll tell you what I find boring. The same instance over and over and over again. "F" that.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    I HATE Witcher. It's a very over rated RPG. I've tried several times to give that game series a chance but never got past an hour.
    .
    As you yourself said, thats your subjective view. Objectively you're wrong, but thats fine, just dont try to argue like that.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post
    Hello everybody, time to revisit one of the topics we hate to discuss: trait points.
    As it sits, we still need to grind out 8 trait points via class deeds, 2 from promo points and 10 from quest chains.
    We are now level 130 and our earned trait points from leveling has slowed down considerably since level 105.
    Every third level until 115 then only once at 120 then nothing 121-130.
    Now we have 97 max earned trait points in the game and can only use 95.

    What I can make out from what I've seen on the forums:
    - People are not happy about the trait points bared behind the quest chains in west rohan, central gondor, osgiliath culvarts and old anorien.
    - People are not happy about the trait points bared behind the class deeds and having to repeatedly spam skills 250-1250 times. Some of which will never be used at endgame.
    - People are not happy about the trait points bared behind the promotion points or the book quests
    omg you have to play the game contents to unlock stuff ... how dare they ?

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    As you yourself said, thats your subjective view. Objectively you're wrong, but thats fine, just dont try to argue like that.
    He gave his personal opinion -> "I HATE Witcher. It's a very over rated RPG".

    And the truth sayer replied "Objectively you're wrong". How about "IMHO you're wrong because I like Witcher and there are a large group of people who created the positive ratings" since all of these statements are personal opinion.

    Personally, on the my being delusional, I have altitis so I like running through the content on each different class. Only have 5 classes active now but used to keep up with all 10 classes.

  19. #44
    My Avatar and characters have earned every Class trait Point available to them, to where they are in the story, minus the point or two from Osgiliath. The new Virtue system continues to cause me the most trouble, by far, but The Further Adventures of Bilbo Baggins offers a small ray of hope.
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    I wish all of you many successful and happy adventures., brave Ladies and Lords of Middle Earth!

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    And the truth sayer replied "Objectively you're wrong". How about "IMHO you're wrong because I like Witcher and there are a large group of people who created the positive ratings" since all of these statements are personal opinion.
    Do you want to discuss the definition of objective? Thousands of positive reviews are what makes this objective.

    I dont like Bioshock, for example, but it has hundreds of thousands of positive reviews, so my subjective opinion is if you try to view it from an objective point of view just wrong.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    After you run it enough times yes, but then you get new stuff to run and it will get boring way slower, because you do it with other people, thats why it is a multiplayer game, you know.

    And well.. thats the point of lotro being an MMO, the interaction with other players and having fun together
    I don't know how you play, but when I quest through Middle Earth, I'm either with another player, or running solo while chatting with kinnies through discord. We do of course group up for raids and instances at end game and also to run old raids/instances, and yes that is fun, but it's fun because its not - ALL we do. I can't think of anything more boring than levelling up via the same instance over and over. That's mind-numbing stuff, especially if you're being dragged through it by higher level friends. As for something new coming along, there is nothing new, they are all old instances while you are levelling up, and some work for XP far better than others, which is why people stick inside them like glue.

    Hey Joe (level 130 kinny), I need to get from level 65 to level 90 by tomorrow. Okay, let's do WP. Not Fun by my estimation, but your choice to do if you want to as it may be fun for you. Just be sure to understand what you'll miss though, because you'll miss a lot levelling up that way.
    Last edited by Arnenna; May 04 2021 at 01:41 PM.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post
    As you yourself said, thats your subjective view. Objectively you're wrong, but thats fine, just dont try to argue like that.
    Why is somebody wrong because they enjoy questing and you don't? Or because they do not share your personal opinion of a different game? He doesn't rate Witcher, not a problem and certainly doesn't invalidate his opinion about questing LOTRO content.

    Listen, I think levelling up via one instance is the most boring thing in Middle Earth. You don't. I'm not wrong, and neither are you. the only difference is that you want from your way of levelling, what I get from my way of levelling. Essentially, you want to change the game to suit your choices.

    There is nothing objective about that.
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  23. #48
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    Okay so you just put a lot of words in my mouth that I did not say and seem to not be able to follow my line of argumentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Why is somebody wrong because they enjoy questing and you don't? Or because they do not share your personal opinion of a different game? He doesn't rate Witcher, not a problem and certainly doesn't invalidate his opinion about questing LOTRO content.
    Example 1: I did say he is OBJECTIVELY wrong. Never said anything about being wrong about questing. I was talking about Witcher. And his opinion can be subjectively right, but objectively wrong, because as I already pointed out, an objectively good game is good because of all the positive stuff A LOT of people say about something. This is how you objectively rate stuff like movies, games, books etc. Following that line of argumentation, Witcher has objectively good storytelling, and lotro if you compare the points, doesnt. Following that line of argumentation, the argument that the story of Lotro makes questing good, is invalid. That doesnt mean that you cant enjoy questing from your subjective point of view tho, and I never said anything like that. I just stated the argumentation is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Listen, I think levelling up via one instance is the most boring thing in Middle Earth. You don't. I'm not wrong, and neither are you.
    Example 2: Never did I ever say anything like that or even mention Warg Pits, so yeah.. But since you mentioned it, 80% of all the people at 130 I know (which are a lot), bought a valar and lvled at least one character in there, because they didnt want to go through all the tedious questing and grinding for trait points anymore. That has to mean something right?


    And one last thing, I too, never said anything about changing how the game works, I'm merely pointing out, that the whole "story is good -> questing is fun" line of argumentation is very subjective and objectively flawed.
    I dont want to be mean, or take the fun away from you.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post


    Example 2: Never did I ever say anything like that or even mention Warg Pits, so yeah.. But since you mentioned it, 80% of all the people at 130 I know (which are a lot), bought a valar and lvled at least one character in there, because they didnt want to go through all the tedious questing and grinding for trait points anymore. That has to mean something right?
    Yes, it means they are in a hurry to get to end game raids and instances. Nothing at all wrong with that. Nothing at all wrong with questing to get to the same point either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_ View Post

    And one last thing, I too, never said anything about changing how the game works, I'm merely pointing out, that the whole "story is good -> questing is fun" line of argumentation is very subjective and objectively flawed.
    I dont want to be mean, or take the fun away from you.
    Well, sorry to burst your bubble on that, but the whole story and world building is LOTRO's strong points, as pointed out by many many reviews and opinion polls over many years. So, right back at you. If you think it's good enough for Witcher, then it's good enough for this game. And I beg to differ on what you're actually saying or not saying. You've made it pretty clear that running back for stuff or questing/deeding for it is not fun for you, despite the "fact" that it is fun for some people. That puts you firmly in the camp of wanting things to work differently, otherwise your wouldn't bother going up on that soapbox just to raise a "mere" point.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Yes, it means they are in a hurry to get to end game raids and instances. Nothing at all wrong with that. Nothing at all wrong with questing to get to the same point either.



    Well, sorry to burst your bubble on that, but the whole story and world building is LOTRO's strong points, as pointed out by many many reviews and opinion polls over many years. So, right back at you. If you think it's good enough for Witcher, then it's good enough for this game. And I beg to differ on what you're actually saying or not saying. You've made it pretty clear that running back for stuff or questing/deeding for it is not fun for you, despite the "fact" that it is fun for some people. That puts you firmly in the camp of wanting things to work differently, otherwise your wouldn't bother going up on that soapbox just to raise a "mere" point.
    Again, you seem to not read or understand what I am writing, I even said, that the worldbuilding, the music is good. But I stand with my point that the storytelling is not up to modern standards anymore.

    Aaand again, you just repeat half of what I said about things being subjective and objective, leave out the critical points and put something in my mouth that I didnt say lol. I said it is tedious, never said anything about changing things or wanting things to work differently tho :/

 

 
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