Maxing all Virtues for new characters is impossible unless you p2w - players beware (tested)

[Arnenna]

So you are using this as an argument to keep the system as it is?
1. The passives are useless considering the time required to farm them. Bad system design
2. You can max out virtues using the store in a few minutes. Bad system design
3. Even if you ignore the passives it takes a crazy amount of farm. Bad design

With that argument it feels like you are trying to defend it, i mention 3 points above why this system is currently garbage. That the passive bonuses are useless is also bad lol..


This is taken out of context and a very poor comparison. Casuals don't need T3+ raid gear since it's part of the raid progression..They can get raid gear from T1 or whatever tier they can handle.. The virtues system is not tied to raids so I can't see how this statement is relevant here lol. If a casual has no intention to do raids, why should they earn raid gear? Makes no sense to me, please explain what you mean.


SSG need to find a middle ground with the store stuff, right now they are favouring the store in every system. Which is bad.


If it takes someone with cash to max out a character, is it fair to be able to do so in a few minutes using store? My point is there has to be some form of balance here, we will never get rid of the store so the least I can see happening is SSG finding a middle ground in this.


No we don't disagree here. Ofc I agree with this, but it won't happen. What we can hope for is that SSG tone down the P2W in this game.


I agree, but at the same time you know it isn't realistic. That's why I'm saying if something takes a few seconds to max out in the store, it isn't reasonable to make the grind in-game several months/years lol! That's why every gameplay system in this game is so tedious right now.


You said that it will become like the LI system, but the in-game grind is IMO just as bad. We are already there, the virtue grind is HORRIBLE. Maybe it's not being discussed since many players just play their mains, and the rest is just using valars.

No, I don't think it should be left as it is, and if you go allllllllll the way back to my first post and actually read it - rather than going off on one at the first line, you'd see, I already said that it needs changing. I don't see it as bad as you do - right now, but I do see the potential it has to become - really bad. Just like many of us had some foresight into what imbued LI's would become, we see this system too. It's not being discussed much, because there are people that don't see where it's heading yet . . . just like some didn't see where LI's where heading.

But, they will. When it gets worse - because it will get worse, as it grows exponentially with any form of player absence (current players taking a break, new players that haven't reached the grind weeklies when they are active etc). Think of it like a trek race up a very steep hill over a very long time period. The later one starts, the less chance there is they will ever catch up with the front runners.

I don't have a problem with the system on my mains, they will just keep up, I have a few alts that are not mains but level cap also, and they can enter the same runs as my mains without any issues. I do however have some mules and yes, this system will prevent them from going places. For them, it's a problem, and therefore - they will always be just mules - because they will never reach into the store for it.

Yikes, you're hot headed on times. Can't even agree with you on times, because of one word or one line you take out of context.

[Fegefeuer]

I've just edited the main post and I just take it as a reference for players concerned with virtue system. Honestly I can't care anymore about blind and denial people. The maths have talked. I don't even care if Cordovan locks the thread and it's not possible to comment, as long as the thread is not deleted.

Basic maths:

- Let's assume that a new player/character can complete the game (all deeds from lvl1-130) in 6 months (unrealistic for new players because they will go much slower, and other reasons, but let's do it with 6 months anyway)
- 60 weeks of weeklies = 15 months = 1 year 3 months
- Then, a new player starting right now, 8 april 2021, will need 1 year 9 months to max the virtues
- In all that time, SSG will increase the virtue cap a few times, and will also remove the sources of vxp of old regions
- Conclusion: it's impossible to max unless you pay

If there is someone that still don't understand this... you are part of this madness.

I desist, have fun with this system.

By the way, I just noticed. Is it 60 weeks but you buy 1 Valar, or is it 60 weeks without the Valar? I just noticed and I'm a bit confused. It's like 800k vxp needed, this is done in 60 weeks or the 60 weeks are for 150k because 650k is from Valar?

[StinkyGreene]

- Let's assume that a new player/character can complete the game (all deeds from lvl1-130) in 6 months (unrealistic for new players because they will go much slower, and other reasons, but let's do it with 6 months anyway)
- 60 weeks of weeklies = 15 months = 1 year 3 months
- Then, a new player starting right now, 8 april 2021, will need 1 year 9 months to max the virtues

Holy smokes. 6 months to “complete the game”. Who in the wide wild world would think that is even close to reality? Multiply that by four or five, maybe...

So you’re also saying you cannot start weeklies until you complete the game? What about Wildwood, what about festivals?

- In all that time, SSG will increase the virtue cap a few times, and will also remove the sources of vxp of old regions
- Conclusion: it's impossible to max unless you pay

How do you know that vxp of old regions will be removed? I get plenty of vxp in old regions. You’re assuming that there won’t be a retooling of the system in that same time period. How do you know that? How do you know the virtue cap will be raised a “few” times? How can you draw a conclusion based on unproven assumptions?

[Macroscian]

It's half pace compared to old system and I think we all know that.

[Fegefeuer]

Holy smokes. 6 months to “complete the game”. Who in the wide wild world would think that is even close to reality? Multiply that by four or five, maybe...

So you’re also saying you cannot start weeklies until you complete the game? What about Wildwood, what about festivals?
How do you know that vxp of old regions will be removed? I get plenty of vxp in old regions. You’re assuming that there won’t be a retooling of the system in that same time period. How do you know that? How do you know the virtue cap will be raised a “few” times? How can you draw a conclusion based on unproven assumptions?

This is the last time I reply just because I start to feel stupid by repeating and explaining these things.

6 months is unrealistic but I said 6 months so the crybabies that say that vxp is okay can shut up. If you multiply that for 5, then maxing virtues is even more impossible than with 6 months, because in 2,5 years (6 months x5), SSG will raise caps many times.

SSG deletes old sources as seen in Vales of Anduin, for example.

SSG has raised virtues 3 or 4 times already since 130 cap was released. For sure, one time with MM release, one time with Elderslade, one time with Wildwood. I don't recall if they increased it with Remmorchant release but it doesn't matter if 3 or 4 at this point.

Goodbye.

[wispsong]

This is the last time I reply just because I start to feel stupid by repeating and explaining these things.

6 months is unrealistic but I said 6 months so the crybabies that say that vxp is okay can shut up. If you multiply that for 5, then maxing virtues is even more impossible than with 6 months, because in 2,5 years (6 months x5), SSG will raise caps many times.

SSG deletes old sources as seen in Vales of Anduin, for example.

SSG has raised virtues 3 or 4 times already since 130 cap was released. For sure, one time with MM release, one time with Elderslade, one time with Wildwood. I don't recall if they increased it with Remmorchant release but it doesn't matter if 3 or 4 at this point.

Goodbye.

With MM we got 5 more ranks but cap was also increased by 10. Then they added 9 more over time. So it will get a lot worse unless players just stop buying into the system. Considering the vxp grind, the ILI grind, and the trait point grind my newer character will stop before Mordor.

[StinkyGreene]

Goodbye.

Where are you going? I just think people are getting really wrapped up in this discussion. Things change all the time in this game. We have no clue what is to come. I hate the new virtue system, because as you level up and cap them, the excess is lost. Happens all the time. Anyway, it's a game. It's a game that costs money to play. You can spend money or not, all about the playstyle and the goal of playing the game. I play it to escape life, not to get all worked up about the positives and negatives we all experience.

[LotroVidz]

I don't have a problem with the system on my mains, they will just keep up, I have a few alts that are not mains but level cap also, and they can enter the same runs as my mains without any issues. I do however have some mules and yes, this system will prevent them from going places. For them, it's a problem, and therefore - they will always be just mules - because they will never reach into the store for it.

You bring up points many times that sound like you are defending the system, that might be why I always have a hard time agreeing with you. Like here, why do you bring this up? Keeping up for you might not be what I refer to as keeping up.. How can we determine if you or anyone else is "keeping up" with their virtues when you yourself saying that they are not necessary to max out? And fine, you can keep up with your "mains", but the discussion is mainly about alts and new players.. No one is having issues keeping up with their LI's on their mains either, yet everyone agrees that the system is flawed.

If you or anyone else can keep up with your mains isn't really relevant to this discussion.. And you do have a problem with your mains from a game design perspective, and that is passives.. Why are the passives so useless? Before you said that "they are useless so not worth spending time on them anyway", that is also something negative that needs to be fixed. Or else just remove the passives, because they are annoying to look at and takes away the clear progression path.

If you spend lots of time or money in-game, the passives should ofc be worth it, right?

So you have nothing to defend here Arnenna

[Curuer_Bauglir]

SSG need to find a middle ground with the store stuff, right now they are favouring the store in every system. Which is bad.

Here's the thing you're failing to understand: this is bad for you, but not the company. It is good for them that players are willing to purchase VXP because it generates revenue. It's not good game design to force players to the store, but it's a fantastic business design used by all gaming companies. I loved the days when you walked out of the store with a game and the costs ended there, but those days are gone and never coming back.

What we can hope for is that SSG tone down the P2W in this game.

What exactly is pay to win? This isn't a competitive game. You're not competing against players who spend tens of thousands of dollars in events or capturing keeps on a map or playing against them in an online tournament. The game is pay to have fun. As much as SSG has to strike a balance between keeping players happy while extracting as much money as possible, players must strike a balance between their playstyle and their checkbook. If you need passive virtue stats maxed in order to enjoy the game, then you either have to grind out the virtues or pay up. 5 maxed virtues isn't that hard to attain. There is no content gated behind virtues. Nobody is wiping t5s because they had an unslotted virtue below max. Nobody is even noticing any difference in t1s or landscape. Passive stats from unslotted virtues are a part of the game that most players probably don't even realize exists.

I agree, but at the same time you know it isn't realistic. That's why I'm saying if something takes a few seconds to max out in the store, it isn't reasonable to make the grind in-game several months/years lol! That's why every gameplay system in this game is so tedious right now.

Spending money to bypass months and years of grind is exactly why the store exists. If grind was only a slight annoyance, people wouldn't pay to skip it. The store system requires content to be tedious. If you could max out your passive virtues in a few weeks, no one would be complaining, but no one would be paying either. I may vehemently hate the store, but I at least understand how it works.

You said that it will become like the LI system, but the in-game grind is IMO just as bad. We are already there, the virtue grind is HORRIBLE. Maybe it's not being discussed since many players just play their mains, and the rest is just using valars.

You're almost there. Probably 99% of players use the imbued LI system once they reach level 100, so it is impacting a large percentage of players. It's getting SSG's attention because it could be causing players to stop playing and hence stop paying. The virtue grind is different. It's not getting as much attention because it isn't a big deal to most players. I would wager a large sum of money that the number of players buying Valars with the primary intent of maxing out unslotted virtues is a very small percentage. I also doubt most players are forsaking alts because of unslotted virtue levels. You completely ignored the vast, vast majority of players who simply don't care about maxing unslotted virtues, hence the limited discussion.

I actually like the current virtue system. I used to have to do certain deeds, some of which I didn't enjoy, to max my desired virtues. Some of those deeds, like the Forochel grim slayer, were a pain, but if I wanted the virtue tied to it I just had to suck it up and do it. Under the current system, I'm getting VXP for the virtue of my choice anytime I complete a VXP deed. As someone who doesn't pay to bypass any content, I complete enough deeds through natural gameplay without having to grind at all, unlike LI scrolls which require grinding even for someone who has completed all quests and instances in the game. Virtues haven't impacted my ability to have alts. They haven't left my main incapable of completing t1 instances. Maxed unslotted virtues is not a gate to any content in the game. If you want it, you have to work for it. If not, you can feed the beast and pay. I feel for the people who can't afford to buy LP or sub and have to grind LP in order to unlock actual content. They have no choice but to roll up their sleeves and get to work. I have a harder time finding sympathy for someone who doesn't want to work or pay for something in the upper 1% of the game.

[LotroVidz]

Here's the thing you're failing to understand: this is bad for you, but not the company. It is good for them that players are willing to purchase VXP because it generates revenue. It's not good game design to force players to the store, but it's a fantastic business design used by all gaming companies. I loved the days when you walked out of the store with a game and the costs ended there, but those days are gone and never coming back.

I guess the population is so low that they need to earn money on every single gameplay system like some free mobile game. This is not how things look in other healthy mmos.. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The reason I care about these issues are that I want the game to be fun outside of playing through new content in a few days. But the store is pushing many people out of the game, fewer players more monetization.

[Elmagor]

Where are you going? I just think people are getting really wrapped up in this discussion. Things change all the time in this game. We have no clue what is to come. I hate the new virtue system, because as you level up and cap them, the excess is lost. Happens all the time. Anyway, it's a game. It's a game that costs money to play. You can spend money or not, all about the playstyle and the goal of playing the game. I play it to escape life, not to get all worked up about the positives and negatives we all experience.

You don't get in, Fegefeuer type of guy who have his own opinion and wrong opinion. If anyone don't agree with him and don't listen to his complains, they all wrong to him. He never changes. He always complain. MMO not for newbies. EVERY MMO harsh for newbies. MMO not for complete game, because every MMO don't have any ending. It's enldess amount of content. And since all that content have VXP, it's endless amount of VXP

[Curuer_Bauglir]

I guess the population is so low that they need to earn money on every single gameplay system like some free mobile game. This is not how things look in other healthy mmos.. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The reason I care about these issues are that I want the game to be fun outside of playing through new content in a few days. But the store is pushing many people out of the game, fewer players more monetization.

No need to worry about bursting my bubble. I’m sure LOTRO is in a very different place financially than other companies and has a business model to reflect that. I’m sure the budgets of LOTRO and WoW aren’t even remotely comparable. LOTRO is just like any MMO in that it loses and gains players everyday. The store isn’t driving as many people away as you think. People that disliked the store enough to leave left long ago. The ones that remain are the ones that learned to live with it, despite its enormous flaws. I don’t play any other MMO, nor do I have any desire to. LOTRO is where Middle-earth lies. Whenever I see people tout the greatness of another MMO, my response is always to ask why aren’t you playing that one? For an adult, playing a single MMO is a time consuming activity on top of everything keeping one busy in life. I can’t imagine trying to play a second or third.

[LotroVidz]

I don’t play any other MMO, nor do I have any desire to. LOTRO is where Middle-earth lies. Whenever I see people tout the greatness of another MMO, my response is always to ask why aren’t you playing that one? For an adult, playing a single MMO is a time consuming activity on top of everything keeping one busy in life. I can’t imagine trying to play a second or third.

I'm not talking about wow here, I talk about any other western MMO in 2021.. Even Asian f2p MMOs do a better job than this with their store monetization. I'm sure the small player base remaining here is fine with SSG destroying any gameplay system by basing them on store purchases.

The fact that they increase their monetization for every system in the game is just a desperate sign that they need more money though, so for every player that leaves the more expensive and grindy the game becomes.

When a company starts to charge players money for something they invested zero in, the game will end up in worse and worse quality.

[HeliStorm]

I'm not talking about wow here, I talk about any other western MMO in 2021.. Even Asian f2p MMOs do a better job than this with their store monetization. I'm sure the small player base remaining here is fine with SSG destroying any gameplay system by basing them on store purchases.

The fact that they increase their monetization for every system in the game is just a desperate sign that they need more money though, so for every player that leaves the more expensive and grindy the game becomes.

When a company starts to charge players money for something they invested zero in, the game will end up in worse and worse quality.

Im one of them thats not fine with this, thats why i havent spent a dime since 1 year, stopped completely. Just having my 9 or 10 raid-geared chars that can farm embers easy. Grinding LP. Im just here cause my friends are here and we have fun in discord etc. Im here until the ship sinks.

[Tambara]

I haven't read all of the posts in the thread so forgive me if this has been asked already. Since only five virtues can be equipped at one time, and since at least half of the virtues are of no of little use to my character, why would I need to max out all twenty-one of them? Is it just a Everest because they're there thing?

[Arnenna]

I haven't read all of the posts in the thread so forgive me if this has been asked already. Since only five virtues can be equipped at one time, and since at least half of the virtues are of no of little use to my character, why would I need to max out all twenty-one of them? Is it just a Everest because they're there thing?

Since the new virtue change, every virtue will give an advantage. The five that you slot, will give you the listed stat bonuses, the 19 that you don't slot, will give you the passive bonuses listed at the bottom (either morale or mastery). This seems to be very important to some folk that like to min/max everything, and it's also pretty important to people that play the completionist game (they do it to complete it, not so much for stat extras). The problem with it is it for each new area they have added since the change, the amount of new Virtue experience required to meet the new target, is added via deeds (but deeds alone do not nearly cover the amount required), and weekly wrapper quests - for the new area. This works ok for people hitting the area when it's launched. They can grab all the deed virtue, then grind out the weeklies for a long time to get the rest. But, when the level cap moves, and these areas become "old" the virtue gains are removed from the weeklies. Therefore, anyone arriving in the region once it's no longer cap, only have the deed virtue to earn. That means that the virtue requirement that was added for the region, cannot be met within that region anymore.

These numbers aren't specific, but they will do for an example.

Area X launches. New virtue ranks are added that require 200K VXP. 75VXP is available from deeds. 125 VXP is then required from weeklies at the rate of 3K per week. That means that the weekly wrapper needs to supply that VXP for 42 weeks.

8 months later, the level cap rises and area Z launches. All VXP from weekly wrappers in area X is removed.

Players arriving at area X from this point on, can only earn the 75 VXP from deeds for that region.

At some point, the way that grows exponentially with new increases of virtue rank, it cannot be sustained, and players coming up through content later will not be able to keep up.

So far, only Vales content has had VXP removed from weeklies, as we haven't had a level cap increase since 130. We do now have a few areas to earn VXP from weeklies (MM, Missions, Limlok), but if they drop off when Gundabad hits with a new level cap, it's going to be bad.

I'm hoping they will consider that, before they turn this into another system that doesn't age well. It's one thing to make it grindy, it's another thing entirely to make it out of reach, as in cannot even meet it through grind, but instead need store assistance.

[Arnenna]

You bring up points many times that sound like you are defending the system, that might be why I always have a hard time agreeing with you. Like here, why do you bring this up? Keeping up for you might not be what I refer to as keeping up.. How can we determine if you or anyone else is "keeping up" with their virtues when you yourself saying that they are not necessary to max out? And fine, you can keep up with your "mains", but the discussion is mainly about alts and new players.. No one is having issues keeping up with their LI's on their mains either, yet everyone agrees that the system is flawed.

If you or anyone else can keep up with your mains isn't really relevant to this discussion.. And you do have a problem with your mains from a game design perspective, and that is passives.. Why are the passives so useless? Before you said that "they are useless so not worth spending time on them anyway", that is also something negative that needs to be fixed. Or else just remove the passives, because they are annoying to look at and takes away the clear progression path.

If you spend lots of time or money in-game, the passives should ofc be worth it, right?

So you have nothing to defend here Arnenna

Ok, you're off on a tangent here now. The point I brought up is that for people in it from the beginning, it isn't an issue for most part. Just like LI's they've had the time to work the system - hence, keep up with it. Sure some haven't kept up with it, but that is because they don't like grind, not because it cannot be kept up with. When its a case of a player "cannot" keep up with it, the points are valid, but when its a case of a player just "not wanting to keep up with it", that's a different kettle of fish.

You don't have to tell me that doesn't work for new players - I've already stated that myself. They weren't on the starting line, and hence, they are running against the wind from the off, and the system is not good for them. Catch up is possible if SSG think closely about what they do when the next level cap arrives. If it's another Vales treatment, it's a lost cause. If they keep the weekly VXP in place or increase VXP from region deeds in MM, Wells, Elderslade, then it could be a different story.

The passives are clearly worth it to some - which is why they are getting so worked up over this. For me, the passives are a nice bonus, but by no means necessary. I have alts that have them (all of them), and alts that don't, and all of them, can play the same content. The grind to get them all maxed is long and tedious - yes? And the advantage is small - yes? Then weigh it up for yourself and make a decision on it. Either the extra is worth the work, and so, do it, or it isn't, and so, ignore it. I don't know about you, but I don't spend any time "looking" at my virtue panel, getting annoyed at it. I do the grind on my mains because they are completionists - not for the bonuses. Mules have some virtues as low as 3, and that doesn't bother me at all. Most of my alts in between mains and mules have a mix of about 8 maxed and others ranging between 15 and 45, and guess what, they don't play any differently than my mains.

It sure would be nice if they made the bonus for all that grind a bit better, and I'm sure more players would chase it down if they did, but remove what's already there? Nope, I disagree with that. "Small" is better than "nothing". The progression path is clear - do the grind, or don't do it. Right now, there is a little gain to it, but nothing so massive that your character is crippled without it. The point though, is, that's how it stands - for now. That's my issue here. That may change as it grows, just like how it happened when the LI system grew (but didn't grow with us as it was supposed to, it ran off on it's own) and if it does get like the LI system, where not doing it does start to cripple characters, then it's a real problem. The difference between not keeping up with LI's, is that a character can't hit anything without the LI progression (at least, the crystal side of it anyway) and the flaw is very noticeable. A character without the passive virtue bonuses, doesn't suffer that problem, and that is why it's not yet as noticeable or actually as bad as the LI grind at the moment. But that doesn't mean it will stay that way and you can add a great big "yet" to the end of it.

On a final note, you do know that you don't have to agree with my opinion on this right? And vice versa. I do like the bonuses we get from the new system and how we earn it by running content that we would be running anyway, for embers and other things (that is the bit I would defend), but I don't like how the new system will punish late comers, or how it will get worse over time by removal of earning potential for new players who are not in the relevant regions at the right time(this is the bit I wouldn't defend)). Quite simple really.

[Braer]

I haven't read all of the posts in the thread so forgive me if this has been asked already. Since only five virtues can be equipped at one time, and since at least half of the virtues are of no of little use to my character, why would I need to max out all twenty-one of them? Is it just a Everest because they're there thing?

Each of the 21 virtue tooltips show what stats they confer. The five you slot use the main stats but you also get the passive values from all 21 added to your character's stats. A chunk of mastery and morale if all are maxed and because of the rising curves likely to increase over time and offering more bang for your bucks at those top end ranks. Maybe it not so much difference yet but suppose if SSG needs some more cash quickly they can just increase the "need" with a balance pass and the catch up signpost to the store will suddenly appear. That's if you haven't already had the store advancement methodology ingrained into you by then.


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We can look back in history to stat tomes, where they were largely useless for much of the game and dropped so infrequently. Then it got an overhaul and some significant increases at the newer higher ranks along with that "limited" availability thing to add some pressure to "Buy Now" before it's too late. But you had to buy the less useful ranks to get up to the higher ones. All of that trashed with Mordor release and the stat explosion that left those stat gains looking quite meagre for the store investment and AH trades to get you them. Could be the next grind mechanic is already in the concept stage and virtues will fall into neglect if it doesn't provide enough return for those times.

But the tomes were stats with no rival, if you didn't have them you didn't get the stats. But despite their abject negligence the last few years, who of us can tell if they'll get a pass over and become vital again. The "why bother crowd" are just being set up for the big fall later on when they have to pay to catch up when the thumb screws tighten, and if you don't it's the Mordor landscape on level difficulties all over again for such players and their long wait for a cap rise to make it through over level.

[Strider5548]

There's nothing wrong with the virtue system on its own. I love the fact that we have a long alternative advancement system that gives you marginal benefits for completing all of the wonderful content in this game.

I can not stand the fact that you can just pay your way past this entire system though. I can't stand even more the fact that buying your virtues is so encouraged by SSG (kill 400 deeds in wildwood anyone?)

The fact that you can pay your way to maxing virtues completely minimizes all of the great content that was built over the past 14 years. Nothing reminds me of this more than when I play my level 20 completionist alt...that feeling of reward you get for finishing every deed and advancing your virtues, it feels like nothing knowing that it's all completely optional and that you can just pull out your credit card and bypass actually playing the game.

[Arnenna]

Each of the 21 virtue tooltips show what stats they confer. The five you slot use the main stats but you also get the passive values from all 21 added to your character's stats. A chunk of mastery and morale if all are maxed and because of the rising curves likely to increase over time and offering more bang for your bucks at those top end ranks. Maybe it not so much difference yet but suppose if SSG needs some more cash quickly they can just increase the "need" with a balance pass and the catch up signpost to the store will suddenly appear. That's if you haven't already had the store advancement methodology ingrained into you by then.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We can look back in history to stat tomes, where they were largely useless for much of the game and dropped so infrequently. Then it got an overhaul and some significant increases at the newer higher ranks along with that "limited" availability thing to add some pressure to "Buy Now" before it's too late. But you had to buy the less useful ranks to get up to the higher ones. All of that trashed with Mordor release and the stat explosion that left those stat gains looking quite meagre for the store investment and AH trades to get you them. Could be the next grind mechanic is already in the concept stage and virtues will fall into neglect if it doesn't provide enough return for those times.

But the tomes were stats with no rival, if you didn't have them you didn't get the stats. But despite their abject negligence the last few years, who of us can tell if they'll get a pass over and become vital again. The "why bother crowd" are just being set up for the big fall later on when they have to pay to catch up when the thumb screws tighten, and if you don't it's the Mordor landscape on level difficulties all over again for such players and their long wait for a cap rise to make it through over level.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'd forgotten about stat tomes, which explains what my concern is more easily. Any grind system that gives a character any such advantage that it becomes necessary to progress - should never be locked behind the store. I understand the "must turn a profit" concept of business is important, but for me, so is the players ability to progress within game, as long as they are paying for content in some form. Any of these systems has the potential to turn from "why bother" to "must have", and we've seen it in an acute form with LIs already - which is why it's taken that system such a long time to even get an acknowledgement that it needs to be addressed. That's the issue with virtues for me right now. Not what they are atm, but what they can potentially become. It doesn't help when people want the advantages to be massive either, because that then creates the problems and makes the systems "must have".

The difference between a fully maxed LI and one that isn't anywhere near maxed, shows how a system completion is too powerful and out of sync. The balance between the two is non existent. That causes problems.
The difference between having all virtue passives and no passives, is small at the moment (it isn't yet "must have"), but it has the potential to get there.
Same with stat tomes.
Already there with OTT t4/5 raid gears compared to non raid gears (outside of ember/lootbox gear). Example - T5 AD Versus t1/2 instance drops or Limlok gear.

And all have store bypass in some form.

It all creates gaps between players that are way too wide, and then, as you rightly say, we end up with another Mordor situation with characters crippled by systems put in place to cripple them unless they bypass them with the store. It's at that point that we "why bother" crowd (me anyway) becomes "not going there".

[Fegefeuer]

Nothing reminds me of this more than when I play my level 20 completionist alt...that feeling of reward you get for finishing every deed and advancing your virtues, it feels like nothing knowing that it's all completely optional and that you can just pull out your credit card and bypass actually playing the game.

I didn't intend to comment anymore in this thread because it's a waste of time (people who don't understand is because they don't want to understand, so better desist), I'm happy enough with the original post, new players / players wanting alts can see that and have their own conclusion, but this sentence touched my heart and I want to say some words

For some weeks since I stopped farming MM weeklies, I'm playing old areas with alts. They feel so much rewarding. I earn LPs everyday, and it really feels good when a new deed is finished. I don't say this for the LP, the VXP or whatever, it's because the mix of everything. Reputation, tokens, titles, LP, VXP, everything. I finished Vol2 areas this week and Moria is one of the best areas, because it feels so much rewarding to play it. It's a shame that Mordor could have been as much rewarding as Moria considering the big amount of deeds it has. In old regions, explorer deeds give 10 LP :O and in post Ring destruction regions, they give nothing, most of them. The feeling is really different. In fact, this is also another reason why I don't want to play many characters in post Ring areas, because it feels so less rewarding that it feels like a waste of time to do them more than 1 or 2 times. Take into perspective, I have 1 character of every class and I haven't finished yet with the last 2, but I'll eventually do, this is doing the game until Mordor (included Mordor) how many times? 10 times? And it felt GREAT! Mordor is exception for me. But post Mordor? I'm really lazy. I like Vales, and Minas Morgul was a nice expansion, and since I'm going to cap all my chars at 130 cap forever except 2 (mains that will continue), I might run them until Minas Morgul anyway, so I can also finish Black Book. But after that? nope. It already feels a waste of time to do Ered Mithrin or Wilderland for me, LP rewards is ridicoulus and I don't even like those areas too much, so won't bother. Some of my alts were parked in Mordor for years. The game until lvl1-105 is incredibly enjoyable for me. Then Mordor is exception because I love it too much, even if deed rewards are bad. But post Mordor... ugh...

Sorry for long text but you touched my heart when talking about "feeling the reward of finishing every deed"

[wispsong]

I didn't intend to comment anymore in this thread because it's a waste of time (people who don't understand is because they don't want to understand, so better desist), I'm happy enough with the original post, new players / players wanting alts can see that and have their own conclusion, but this sentence touched my heart and I want to say some words

For some weeks since I stopped farming MM weeklies, I'm playing old areas with alts. They feel so much rewarding. I earn LPs everyday, and it really feels good when a new deed is finished. I don't say this for the LP, the VXP or whatever, it's because the mix of everything. Reputation, tokens, titles, LP, VXP, everything. I finished Vol2 areas this week and Moria is one of the best areas, because it feels so much rewarding to play it. It's a shame that Mordor could have been as much rewarding as Moria considering the big amount of deeds it has. In old regions, explorer deeds give 10 LP :O and in post Ring destruction regions, they give nothing, most of them. The feeling is really different. In fact, this is also another reason why I don't want to play many characters in post Ring areas, because it feels so less rewarding that it feels like a waste of time to do them more than 1 or 2 times. Take into perspective, I have 1 character of every class and I haven't finished yet with the last 2, but I'll eventually do, this is doing the game until Mordor (included Mordor) how many times? 10 times? And it felt GREAT! Mordor is exception for me. But post Mordor? I'm really lazy. I like Vales, and Minas Morgul was a nice expansion, and since I'm going to cap all my chars at 130 cap forever except 2 (mains that will continue), I might run them until Minas Morgul anyway, so I can also finish Black Book. But after that? nope. It already feels a waste of time to do Ered Mithrin or Wilderland for me, LP rewards is ridicoulus and I don't even like those areas too much, so won't bother. Some of my alts were parked in Mordor for years. The game until lvl1-105 is incredibly enjoyable for me. Then Mordor is exception because I love it too much, even if deed rewards are bad. But post Mordor... ugh...

Sorry for long text but you touched my heart when talking about "feeling the reward of finishing every deed"

And isn't that where SSG should pay attention to? I finished Eriador on another character and agree, it feels so much more rewarding concerning everything. You basically feel finished with that character, there are no moving goalposts. Going through Gondor on another character right now, and even here I don't worry to much about the ILI or virtues. Because up to the end of Vol 4 it really doesn't matter. What bothers me a bit is the essences which eventually will be required. Thankfully at 105 I have bound to account gear which already has them slotted. Post ring it does not only feel less rewarding but a never ending grind to keep up basically with every system or not be able to play at all. So my new characters will be parked before Mordor.

[maartena]

You bring up points many times that sound like you are defending the system, that might be why I always have a hard time agreeing with you.

Did you not know? If you agree with SSG in ANY way, shape or form, you are automatically labeled a "fanboi" or a "troll". You MUST disagree with SSG, or you are an outcast!

[HeliStorm]

And isn't that where SSG should pay attention to? I finished Eriador on another character and agree, it feels so much more rewarding concerning everything. You basically feel finished with that character, there are no moving goalposts. Going through Gondor on another character right now, and even here I don't worry to much about the ILI or virtues. Because up to the end of Vol 4 it really doesn't matter. What bothers me a bit is the essences which eventually will be required. Thankfully at 105 I have bound to account gear which already has them slotted. Post ring it does not only feel less rewarding but a never ending grind to keep up basically with every system or not be able to play at all. So my new characters will be parked before Mordor.

In my opinion, gearing went downhill with Mordor. Started with mote-farm raids. Didnt like it, never joined one. Then you could do weekley for keys. And they took away that. Now we're stuck with embers/motes. Crafting is not there. Feel sorry for the new players. People who raided since Throne with 7-9 chars are a big advantage here, can do weekly with all of them.

Well, i didnt like when essence was introduced with Gondor either, alot of grind with gear and essences. Everyone just slotted mastery then.

[Fegefeuer]

In my opinion, gearing went downhill with Mordor. Started with mote-farm raids. Didnt like it, never joined one. Then you could do weekley for keys. And they took away that. Now we're stuck with embers/motes. Crafting is not there. Feel sorry for the new players. People who raided since Throne with 7-9 chars are a big advantage here, can do weekly with all of them.

Well, i didnt like when essence was introduced with Gondor either, alot of grind with gear and essences. Everyone just slotted mastery then.

Let me say that Mordor has cheap crafted gear and craftable essences that don't require solvents. Motes can be as bad as you wish, but Mordor crafting is much more alt friendly than Anorien, and infinitely much more alt friendly and cheap in comparison with Ironfold and Ithil.