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  1. #26
    Already checked. LM traits are additive. 25%+15% means lightning storm goes from 2s to 1.2s. Same ratio with embers and gust.

  2. #27
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    I logged my minstrel (which is the worst minstrel on the server, just leveled by task items and not even played today) and checked the tooltip in different conditions. Why the minstrel? Because it is a char with a wide variation of induction times at little cost. This char does not have a Remmo or Anvil set, so it would be great if someone could add data.

    Quick Melody: 20%
    Anthem: 25%
    ILI: 10%
    Follow up: 15%

    Bolster courage:
    Raw: 2.7 sec
    QM: 2.2 Sec (-20%, expect 2.16, rounded up to 2.2)
    QM+ILI: 1.9 sec (-30%, expect 1.89, rounded up to 1.9)
    QM+FU: 1.8 sec (-35%, expect 1.755, rounded up to 1.8)
    QM+ILI+FU 1.6 sec (-45%, expect 1.485, not explainable)
    QM+A: 1.5 sec (-45%, expect 1.485, rounded up to 1.5)
    QM+ILI+A: 1.3 sec (-55%, expect 1.215, rounded up(?) to 1.3)
    QM+A+FU: 1.1 (60%, expect 1.08, rounded up to 1.1)
    QM+ILI+A+FU: 1 sec (-70%, expect 0.81 not explainable)



    Raise spirit
    Raw: 1.4 sec
    QM: 1.1 sec (-20%, expect 1.12, rounded down to 1.1)
    QM+ILI: 0.9 sec (-30%, expect 0.98, rounded down(?) to 0.9), sometimes constant 1.1, so ILI is ignored
    QM+FU: 0.9 sec (-35%, expect 0.91, rounded down to 0.9)
    QM+A: 0.8 sec (-45%, expect 0.77, rounded up to 0.8)
    QM+ILI+FU: 0.7 sec, (-45%, expect 0.77, rounded down(?) to 0.6)
    QM+ILI+A: 0.6 sec (-55%, expect 0.63, rounded down to 0.6)
    QM+A+FU: 0.6 (-60%, expect 0.6, no rounding)
    QM+ILI+A+FU: 0.5 sec (-70%, expect 0.42, rounded up(?) to 0.5)

    Could someone explain? From what I see here, the tooltip display deviates from the expected values in quite a few cases. I don't play a minstrel, so I have no idea about bugs that might have been around for a decade. I repeated the strange configurations and used building in a few cases, so that QM+ILI+A is followed by QM+ILI+A+FU and there was a decrease, but not as big as expected. This ensures that all buffs were definitely registered before.

    We should probably check what is really going on here.
    Last edited by thinx; Apr 09 2021 at 05:29 AM.

  3. #28
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    And, since I want to keep this separate:
    I can proof numerically that the anvil T2 set is the worst, not the cloak.
    A minstrel gets 4% from the cloak, 20% from QM, 10% from ILI, 25% from A, 15% from FU and 10% from the remmo set, which gives us a total of 84%. The anvil increases that to 94%, so this is a 62.5% increase by facerolling an L120 instance on T2, while people doing a T3 cap instance just get 4%. Or even worse, people having the remmo set just get 10% (if we put this one on top of the row).
    (Anthem is the worst, it can reduce from 69 to 94%, which is an 81% gain.)
    We just have to display the numbers right to make our point.

    Or this one:
    People get TENS of MILLIONS just by a 4% induction reduction. Tens of millions means doing 90M more damage in a 100M boss fight, so this is an increase by 900%. Insane!
    Or they did 20M more damage in a 950M boss fight, which is an increase of 2%.

    What I would *really* like to see is someone with the cloak to go to the dummy and get some numbers rather than wild assumptions.
    Last edited by thinx; Apr 09 2021 at 03:30 AM.

  4. #29
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    There is no point in comparing tooltips since Lotro does not calculate with the rounded numbers displayed there.

    Standard Quick Shot has a 0.5 induction and 32 Frames.
    -20% induction Quick Shot has a 0.4 induction and 26 Frames.
    -24% induction Quick Shot also has a 0.4 induction but only 23 Frames.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    I logged my minstrel (which is the worst minstrel on the server, just leveled by task items and not even played today) and checked the tooltip in different conditions. Why the minstrel? Because it is a char with a wide variation of induction times at little cost. This char does not have a Remmo or Anvil set, so it would be great if someone could add data.

    Quick Melody: 20%
    Anthem: 25%
    ILI: 10%
    Follow up: 15%

    Bolster courage:
    Raw: 2.7 sec
    QM: 2.2 Sec (-20%, expect 2.16, rounded up to 2.2)
    QM+ILI: 1.9 sec (-30%, expect 1.89, rounded up to 1.9)
    QM+FU: 1.8 sec (-35%, expect 1.755, rounded up to 1.8)
    QM+ILI+FU 1.6 sec (-45%, expect 1.485, not explainable)
    QM+A: 1.5 sec (-45%, expect 1.485, rounded up to 1.5)
    QM+ILI+A: 1.3 sec (-55%, expect 1.215, rounded up(?) to 1.3)
    QM+A+FU: 1.1 (60%, expect 1.08, rounded up to 1.1)
    QM+ILI+A+FU: 1 sec (-70%, expect 0.81 not explainable)



    Raise spirit
    Raw: 1.4 sec
    QM: 1.1 sec (-20%, expect 1.12, rounded down to 1.1)
    QM+ILI: 0.9 sec (-30%, expect 0.98, rounded down(?) to 0.9), sometimes constant 1.1, so ILI is ignored
    QM+FU: 0.9 sec (-35%, expect 0.91, rounded down to 0.9)
    QM+A: 0.8 sec (-45%, expect 0.77, rounded up to 0.8)
    QM+ILI+FU: 0.7 sec, (-45%, expect 0.77, rounded down(?) to 0.6)
    QM+ILI+A: 0.6 sec (-55%, expect 0.63, rounded down to 0.6)
    QM+A+FU: 0.6 (-60%, expect 0.6, no rounding)
    QM+ILI+A+FU: 0.5 sec (-70%, expect 0.42, rounded up(?) to 0.5)

    Could someone explain? From what I see here, the tooltip display deviates from the expected values in quite a few cases. I don't play a minstrel, so I have no idea about bugs that might have been around for a decade. I repeated the strange configurations and used building in a few cases, so that QM+ILI+A is followed by QM+ILI+A+FU and there was a decrease, but not as big as expected. This ensures that all buffs were definitely registered before.

    We should probably check what is really going on here.
    This sounds odd but interesting, I will have a look into this later on.

    Edit: -10% induction time from LI seems to be multiplicative instead of additive. Thank you very much for your effort!
    Last edited by Soragrim; Apr 09 2021 at 08:07 AM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soragrim View Post
    Edit: -10% induction time from LI seems to be multiplicative instead of additive. Thank you very much for your effort!
    So we got at least 2 different categories that are summed within their category and then multiplied.

    The next question would be how gear-based induction reductions are handled. Do they end up in one of these 2 categories or do they have their own one?

    I am aware that the tooltip values are rounded, but this is why I used unrounded numbers as reference. Didn't know about frames, but I assume this is a server side unit.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    So we got at least 2 different categories that are summed within their category and then multiplied.

    The next question would be how gear-based induction reductions are handled. Do they end up in one of these 2 categories or do they have their own one?

    I am aware that the tooltip values are rounded, but this is why I used unrounded numbers as reference. Didn't know about frames, but I assume this is a server side unit.
    As far as I know gear-based induction reductions (anvil set and cloak) are additive like all trait-based induction reductions except minstrel's LI and minstrel's blue remmo set bonus (cry of the chorus halves inductions).
    Originally I wanted to point out that even if your tooltip value does not change while having equipped the cloak, it still reduces your casting time by some frames because lotro does not use the rounded values displayed in the tooltips for calculation.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soragrim View Post
    As far as I know gear-based induction reductions (anvil set and cloak) are additive like all trait-based induction reductions except minstrel's LI and minstrel's blue remmo set bonus (cry of the chorus halves inductions).
    Given the things we have seen above, I would go for a confirmation rather than assumptions :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soragrim View Post
    Originally I wanted to point out that even if your tooltip value does not change while having equipped the cloak, it still reduces your casting time by some frames because lotro does not use the rounded values displayed in the tooltips for calculation.
    I was aware of that even before. Your clarification is good though, because it defines 1/64 second (~16ms) as the smallest resolvable unit. Where did you get this information from?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    Given the things we have seen above, I would go for a confirmation rather than assumptions :-)

    I was aware of that even before. Your clarification is good though, because it defines 1/64 second (~16ms) as the smallest resolvable unit. Where did you get this information from?
    To be honest I am not interested in testing all traits/equipment in the game by frame-counting. I will stick to my assumptions until there is reason to question it (like you did with your well appreciated minstrel testing).

    I got that information from recording some inductions and counting the frames via software like VLC media player.

  10. #35
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    Honestly who cares that current level 130 items have an induction bonus? Level 120 Anvil Gear is still BIS for LMs and Hunters because of the massive 10% induction bonus, even after the Remm set pieces got upgraded.

    I would rather have current end game gear that is temporarily available from a festival be bis than level 120 raid gear.

    With that said, I do think it's stupid that the festival bis items are only available during festivals, you should be able to get them off cycle either by super low drop rate or some other harder mechanism.
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  11. #36
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    Golden cloak dps increase test

    So i have tested out the dps increase for hunters and loremasters while wearing the golden cloak.

    The dps increase of yellow loremasters who are now able to pull off extra skills between their rotations is a huge one actually, in a raid the dps of yellow loremasters now is slightly more than doubled. An average increase of ~120%. Now yellow loremasters already provide some really low maintained dps so this is definitely not really much of a noticeable dps increase. In about 3-4minutes of time yellow loremasters will provide an extra 4-8 million damage depending on their personal skill tho most of them being around the 5 million mark. So this golden cloak will already give you aprox 5million extra yellow LM damage every 3-4 minutes.

    But who cares about loremasters, hunters are more important! So hunter dps varies a lot, majority of hunters are around the 150k dummy mark, t3 hunters are usually around the 160-180k mark and t4-t5 hunters are anywhere between 180k and 240k depending on personal skill, completely unbuffed with 595k crit and 800k mastery.

    I started with testing some hunters who average on 175k dummy dps and have noticed them get a general 5k dps increase with the cloak vs not having the cloak. Which is a dps increase of ~3%. When i further tested out hunters who generally parse less, their bonus dmg already decreased but the dmg bonus was always ~3%. The higher the dps was of x hunter, the more bonus dmg they did but it still stayed in the 3% range. So a hunter who averages 200k, now got a bonus of about 6k. So from the dummies we have learned it's a 3% dps increase for hunters.

    Now let's go to raiding to get a better picture.


    Not the best pic as its a relatively short time and the timer does suggest a burst time instead of a ''real'' maintained time but we made sure not to burst again after the initial burst including burn hot/Ob and such and the crit rng was utter most garbage aswell, lowering the dps drastically. The average hunter ST raid dps will be 550-600k dps maintained on t4-t5. With some even going to 700k+ maintained with good rng.

    Now if you wanna have a quick and simple number do a simple 3% and you will have anywhere between 16.5k-21k+ extra dps per hunter. So 3.4M-4.3M+ extra damage for each hunter you have. However the accuracy is questionable with this method.

    Let's figure out the utter most MINIMUM dps increase in the WORST case scenarios, not factoring in any faster Upshot/Heartseeker cd resets or anything. Just pure time factoring in a multiplicative induction speed. Which we have already seen is actually additive but for the sake of finding the WORST case scenario.
    Now looking at the picture 0.04 * (7 * 1.1 + 88 * 0.3 + 9 * 0.6s + 4 * 0.5) = 1.66s of extra time you gain for other skill casts. Thus at the utter most MINIMUM, in the worst case scenario this cloak will provide anywhere between a 610k-2.5m extra dmg = 0.05%-2.5% dmg increase.

    Now add on top of this that the induction speed is actually additive and that this will provide you with faster HS/US cd resets. You are on average looking at a 3-10% dps increase depending on the fight. With the possibility of this going up by even 15% on fights like shelob due to a potential extra reset on HS/US during topples.

    So hunters will on average provide an extra 3-10% dps. Which in usual high tier raid fights is 18-60k extra dps which will provide the group with 3.24m-10.8m extra damage every 3minutes PER HUNTER. Now let's say a usual fight lasts for 10minutes (altough some last 13-20minutes) you will be looking at:
    10m = 10.8m-36m extra dmg
    13m = 14.04m-46.8m extra dmg


    FOR EACH HUNTER IN YOUR GROUP. So due to this golden cloak a yellow lm + 1 hunter = 15m-51.8m extra dmg to the raid (10minutes). Now Add in as many hunters as you want to increase the bonus dmg even further. Some groups even use 4 hunters so let's see that's a potential 61.2m-192.2m extra dmg (13 minutes) but by that time the boss will be long gone so u wont hit this bonus number to begin with obviously tho its possible if boss morale was high enough lol. Now we do not even know the numbers that a buffed up red rk would do at this point as they get buffed up even more by this cloak so who knows.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So for anyone saying this golden cloak is not significant... lol. It will be BiS for induction classes for multiple level caps no matter the item level, i guarantee you that. It is honestly a disgrace that we got such a powerful cloak, i would honestly not even want this cloak as a drop in t5 content. But it coming from a TIME LIMITED SUPER EASY EVENT is the absolute pinnacle of insanity. Pls remove it from future spring festivals and level cap the current ones. It's way too good. Induction speed in general is already too crazy to begin with. We need to start scaling down on some of this stuff, yes i am also looking at you anvil set and remmo 3set.
    Last edited by HolyDuckTape; Apr 10 2021 at 07:18 AM.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    ...
    nO itS woThLesS - forum posters

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BinaryTertiary View Post
    nO itS woThLesS - forum posters
    I have come prepared

    https://imgur.com/hYaIega
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...face_1f921.png

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    Pls remove it from future spring festivals and level cap the current ones. It's way too good. Induction speed in general is already too crazy to begin with. We need to start scaling down on some of this stuff, yes i am also looking at you anvil set and remmo 3set.
    I have no issues level capping these cloaks. Like you noted and I noted earlier, if they level cap these cloaks they must also level cap outdated anvil gear which is even more OP, it doesn't make sense to do one without the other.
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  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    For some classes it will have a small but still very noticeable impact like hunters and minstrels but for runekeepers and loremasters this is a huge bonus, i would even say a gamechanger honestly. Now with ''gamechanger'' i dont really mean a gamechanger, its not like ur all of a sudden gonna carry a raid on ur own or something but you just get the time to push in so many more ''bonus'' skills, which in the long run makes a pretty big impact on the amount you can provide. For example some loremasters i play with are adding more and more little skills in between their rotations due to bonuses such as these. They can provide millions of extra damage to the raid group than before and that is very noticeable on the time to kill, hunters can provide an even bigger damage boost now and who knows, if runekeepers get fixed this cloak will be their holy grail. On hunters and loremasters alone (all combined in a raid), you're already looking at tens of millions of extra dmg.
    Lets say its true, since I dont play this Fu%#*&^ game anymore, and now LM's can add a significant contribute for the DPS role with *their* dps skills- is it ok with you?
    Do you want to play a game that take's a support role, ask him to use only few skills (AC, shatter arms, lores, SI) and than fill the gap with dps skills?
    Lets be careful here and wont make another "cappy" case here that can do so much in a single "role".

    And by the way- regarding the cloak, its a new business gimmick that bring a lot of players online so prepare to have this option every festival/event.
    Cheers

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    ......
    Sorry, but you still try to inflate numbers by just multiplying them with time. 3% on a billion is 30M which sounds much, but it is still 3%.

    Your tests at the dummy show an increase of 3%. This increase *already* includes any additional skills that you may have fired between heart seeker and upshot cycles. There are no more skills to come. The only thing that is not included within 3 minutes is the increase in HS/US repetition, simply because it may require a longer time to become visible. The additional HS/US actually needs to *happen*.
    Non-induced skills remain unchanged. Normal induced skill get a speedup in repetition, but the effective speedup depends on the ratio of induction/(induction+CD).
    HS/US are an exception, as they get a CD speedup by crits in between. Lower inductions on intermediate skills increase the number of crits and the number of CD reductions. Any successful reduction reduces the time until CD expires, so the chances to get another crit are reduced. Non-induced skills are not faster, so their contribution remains constant.
    So if we assume a 4% speedup, HS/US can actually approach the theoretical limit by having 100% crit rate and using ONLY induced skills between cycles - bu no rotation does that.
    This means HS/US will not *EXCEED* the cloak gain, but they can get *CLOSER* to the theoretical limit than all other induced skills, because their CD benefits from the induction reduction.

    Now, within those 3%, all your other skills were able to gain 5% (4.9), while we assume that the gain on HS/US was not included. We can discuss how much HS/US rate will be accelerated, but overall the induction vs. CD ratio is still not good and you only gain "additional" CD reductions by other induced skills (non-induced need the same time) AND it saturates, as lower CD means a smaller remaining time window and a lower number of future crits in that window. So overall, I would expect that HS/US cycle speedup is much worse than 5%. With an optimistic 3%, we end up at 0.6*5%+0.4*3%=3.6%.

    Topple phase may seem nice, but your "extra" HS/US actually needs to appear in the respective time window. I guess it would be hard to argument that you did *not* get that additional HS/US in your 3 min window, but would get it frequently during topples. On the other hand we have to say that different phases without induction (moving, being wrapped) reduce the gain of induction speedup, simply because there is no gain without using the skills. This will not cost much of course, but if it is worth mentioning the gain of an additional HS during topples, the loss by movement and wraps needs to be mentioned too. IMO both are peanuts.

    So overall, the 3-10% assumption is rather 3-ish. HS/US does not scale as you describe and all other additional skills were *already* included in your parse with sufficiently high numbers. It's not going to get any better than that.

    And again, just factoring in longer time and more hunters to make the numbers look big is not useful. Percentage remains percentage, no matter how it is scaled. It is e.g. NOT the case that the anvil set was improved since L120, because people are healing for higher numbers nowadays.

    Is it relevant? This is subjective and I know your opinion. But don't make the numbers bigger than they are. The cloak is much worse than the gains we get from somewhere else and people were just farming Remmo SBs and Anvil T2 to get those.
    Last edited by thinx; Apr 12 2021 at 07:15 AM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soragrim View Post
    To be honest I am not interested in testing all traits/equipment in the game by frame-counting. I will stick to my assumptions until there is reason to question it (like you did with your well appreciated minstrel testing).

    I got that information from recording some inductions and counting the frames via software like VLC media player.
    Thanks for the info. Actually I wasn't looking for frame counts. As long as we assume that tooltips show the correct numbers (and they don't do that), we could see the difference even with the rounded tooltip numbers.
    If you apply QM/A/FU (without ILI) and eqip/unequip a set, you would see a change of 10%*2.7sec = 0.27 sec in bolster courage, if it is additive.
    If it is not, you would see a change of 10%*1.1 sec = 0.11 sec.
    The difference between 0.27 and 0.11 should be visible in the tooltip.
    I would also suggest to try this with one set and 2 sets. Who knows, maybe the sets are multiplicative among one another rather than additive.

    Counting frames is IMO no accurate method anyway. FPS is client dependent and I am quite sure that inductions and CDs are calculated at the server, not at the client. They should better be, because otherwise client software could be modified to just ignore them.
    I am quite sure that there is a client side extrapolation though, but it is synced with information from the server at some time. This might fit to the fact that skills in the queue are not always doing what they should do....

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melkorben View Post
    Lets say its true, since I dont play this Fu%#*&^ game anymore, and now LM's can add a significant contribute for the DPS role with *their* dps skills- is it ok with you?
    Do you want to play a game that take's a support role, ask him to use only few skills (AC, shatter arms, lores, SI) and than fill the gap with dps skills?
    Lets be careful here and wont make another "cappy" case here that can do so much in a single "role".
    Altough LMs get an approx 120% increase in dps due to this cloak, they still wont all of a sudden provide an immense amount of extra stuff so it won't be a cappy 2.0 situation but it will still be a noticeable change for sure. And no this is not okay with me, i do not like this cloak at all, my point is that we need less of this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    Sorry, but you still try to inflate numbers by just multiplying them with time. 3% on a billion is 30M which sounds much, but it is still 3%.
    Exactly, it is still 3% but time is an extremely important factor in raiding especially high tier raiding where this cloak will have the most impact. Dealing 30M extra dmg will easily mean a kill or a wipe especially for first timers.

    3.24m-10.8m dmg each 3m = 1.41s-4.6s extra time every 3m for each hunter you have.

    Now let's take 10-13m of time and you will get 4.7(min)/15.2s(max) - 6.1/19.9s extra time for each hunter you have.
    2 hunters = 9.4/30.4s - 12.2/39.8s
    3 = 14.1/45.6s - 18.3/59.7s
    4 = 18.8s/60.8 - 24.4/79.6s
    1 loremaster = 2.2s extra each 3m so 10/13m = 7.3s-9.6s extra time

    So we're looking at 12s/22.5s-68.1s of extra time in a 10 minute fight and 15.7s/29.5s-89.2s of extra time for a 13m fight. That's keeping in mind that you have a strong t4-t5 dps group to back you up so this is the MINIMUM extra time you will get. If you have 1 good hunter in a bad group then that hunter will easily provide DOUBLE (or more) the bonus time so that would be 9.4s-39.8s extra time for 1 hunter. After that if you add even more good hunters then the numbers will definitely get a diminishing returns kind of effect. Now why would the bonus time increase? shouldn't it stay the same? That's simple, because it takes let's say a 2.3million raid dps group to burn through 3.24m-10.8m ----> 1.41-4.6s to do so that's how much bonus time you provide to the team. Let's say you have a bad group which is often around 1.15million raid dps you will already be at double. Most groups are even worse than this and you will be effectively giving them much more than double the bonus time.


    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    The cloak is much worse than the gains we get from somewhere else and people were just farming Remmo SBs and Anvil T2 to get those.
    True that, it's kinda embarassing -10% from sidebosses, -10% from previous level cap content and -4% from a festival. It's all pretty dumb. Now i never liked the anvil sets but i could still kinda accept it, everyone can get it, it comes at a stat sacrifice of 2 pieces (which sadly means nothing atm as stat bloat is through the roof) and only having one induction/atk speed bonus isn't too bad yet altough i personally still dislike it. But yeah now that they have added another 10% in remmo and 4% in a festival cloak it has become way too much. One -10% bonus already makes you a machine gun on any class, adding another 14% on top of it is just crazy.

    I do not know what i would do with the anvil set just yet but i do know that remmo 3 set and the golden cloak should never have existed
    Last edited by HolyDuckTape; Apr 12 2021 at 09:58 AM.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    Exactly, it is still 3% but time is an extremely important factor in raiding especially high tier raiding where this cloak will have the most impact. Dealing 30M extra dmg will easily mean a kill or a wipe especially for first timers.
    Depends. The preferences when 3% are very important or just nice to have are very subjective. I am fully aware that DPS means time reduction, which reduces phase repetitions and reduces the probability for human error. And, with enrage and similar mechanisms in place, it also helps to stay below the limit.
    On the other hand, those 3% are not the thing that saves the day. Sometimes they does, sometimes they do not.

    All the other small percentage buffs we get here and there, from even less difficult content than maid - or worse, from the store/lootboxes/hobbit present - give a lot more. And especially the bought stuff is IMO a violation of raid integrity. But noone cares.

 

 
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