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  1. #1
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    Will all future cloaks have special effects?

    So now that we are getting -4% induction on a festival cloak.... will all future cloaks give us effects similar to this or is the spring festival cloak FOREVER gonna be the BiS for all content for induction classes? Nice balancing....

    This cloak will now be the BiS cloak for pretty much ever unless we get more cloaks with these kind of effects which in my opinion is really bad. Our only hope now is to remove/change the effects on the cloak but now that everyone has already grinded them out, the community won't respond well to that. And why remove/change it you might ask? Well -4% induction speed on a single item will literally be used as the BiS for multiple level caps easily. It doesn't matter much if you stop these cloaks from dropping in the future as the current cloak will be used for multiple level caps guaranteed. A % modifier > one piece of stats anytime, anyday. Well done...


    Same goes for the +10% dev magnitude cloak tho this cloak is not as powerful


    Edit: actually, removing the cloak from the loottables in future spring festivals and level capping it as it's not available anymore would probably be the best option.
    Last edited by HolyDuckTape; Apr 05 2021 at 11:46 PM.

  2. #2
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    Set bonuses and special effects come and go.
    I don't expect the spring cloaks to last long.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    So now that we are getting -4% induction on a festival cloak.... will all future cloaks give us effects similar to this or is the spring festival cloak FOREVER gonna be the BiS for all content for induction classes? Nice balancing....

    This cloak will now be the BiS cloak for pretty much ever unless we get more cloaks with these kind of effects which in my opinion is really bad. Our only hope now is to remove/change the effects on the cloak but now that everyone has already grinded them out, the community won't respond well to that. And why remove/change it you might ask? Well -4% induction speed on a single item will literally be used as the BiS for multiple level caps easily. It doesn't matter much if you stop these cloaks from dropping in the future as the current cloak will be used for multiple level caps guaranteed. A % modifier > one piece of stats anytime, anyday. Well done...


    Same goes for the +10% dev magnitude cloak tho this cloak is not as powerful


    Edit: actually, removing the cloak from the loottables in future spring festivals and level capping it as it's not available anymore would probably be the best option.
    Don't forget what upgraded Rem sets have -% induction too. And if you have skills what need like 0.3 seconds to cast, you can't notice that -4% bonus.

  4. #4
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    On the other hand, people that happen to live on the correct side of the pond have a permanent -4% induction buff anyway.
    And if the server has a bad day, we get a +20% induction buff on average and up to +200% in spikes.
    4% of a second is 40ms. I'd call that a cosmetic buff.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    On the other hand, people that happen to live on the correct side of the pond have a permanent -4% induction buff anyway.
    And if the server has a bad day, we get a +20% induction buff on average and up to +200% in spikes.
    4% of a second is 40ms. I'd call that a cosmetic buff.
    A very true remark.

    as for >>>Don't forget what upgraded Rem sets have -% induction too. And if you have skills what need like 0.3 seconds to cast, you can't notice that -4% bonus.<<<
    -4% won't be noticed save in a very long fight I suggest an induction based dps may get off a couple more skills with the cloak equipped than otherwise.
    Mithithil Ithryndi

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    So now that we are getting -4% induction on a festival cloak.... will all future cloaks give us effects similar to this or is the spring festival cloak FOREVER gonna be the BiS for all content for induction classes? Nice balancing....
    so, that is why all the induction classes are running around with 2 pieces of the anvil set (it has 10% induction) .. Oh wait, no one uses it because all the other stats on an item matter as well. The same holds for the cloak.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    so, that is why all the induction classes are running around with 2 pieces of the anvil set (it has 10% induction) .. Oh wait, no one uses it because all the other stats on an item matter as well. The same holds for the cloak.
    It's more complicated than that. 2-Concentration is coming back en vogue for hunters with the current stat bloat, at least until environmental damage in the next raid convinces people to use the excess stat budget to bulk up again as with AD.
    Argendauss, Captain
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    Don't forget what upgraded Rem sets have -% induction too. And if you have skills what need like 0.3 seconds to cast, you can't notice that -4% bonus.
    1. the upgraded rem sets have a level cap
    2. this is from a festival and is BiS forever/multiple level caps
    3. if you have skills that take 0.3s to use, let's say quickshot well reduce 4% off 300s = 12s extra time = 40 extra quickshots (or any skill u wanna use) thats a pretty big chunk of extra dmg in a raid.
    Now take a class like red runekeepers (if they become useful again) or loremasters and the increase in extra time will HUGELY increase, even more than hunters.
    4. The moment we lose all our remmo set bonuses and anvil becomes too hard to equip for the next level cap, this cloak will automatically become more powerful as the induction times increase again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pewpewmidget View Post
    Set bonuses and special effects come and go.
    I don't expect the spring cloaks to last long.
    This one does not have a level cap tho, even if they would remove it from the future spring loottable (which they probably wont) this item would still survive multiple level caps pretty easily if they do not give us anything similar. % modifiers always beat pure stats especially if its only 1 piece of gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorondir View Post
    so, that is why all the induction classes are running around with 2 pieces of the anvil set (it has 10% induction) .. Oh wait, no one uses it because all the other stats on an item matter as well. The same holds for the cloak.
    Everyone i know is using the anvil set in Remmo/AD t5. And even if you wouldn't that would only increase the strength of equipping this cloak to begin with lol. % modifiers > stats ESPECIALLY when its only 1 piece of gear which you can make up for extremely easily. And thats not even mentioning the absolute bonkers stat bloat of nowadays that pretty much makes you able to even equip a 4 slot abyss set bonus for t5 raids.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    1. the upgraded rem sets have a level cap
    2. this is from a festival and is BiS forever/multiple level caps
    3. if you have skills that take 0.3s to use, let's say quickshot well reduce 4% off 300s = 12s extra time = 40 extra quickshots (or any skill u wanna use) thats a pretty big chunk of extra dmg in a raid.
    Now take a class like red runekeepers (if they become useful again) or loremasters and the increase in extra time will HUGELY increase, even more than hunters.
    4. The moment we lose all our remmo set bonuses and anvil becomes too hard to equip for the next level cap, this cloak will automatically become more powerful as the induction times increase again.
    So you just worry about your BiS gear from T4-T5 Rem will be removed, and people can keep cloak? Next day SSG can add level cap to that too. And 40 extra quickshots can be only in ideal situation with ideal internet. Maybe if you attack dummy you can do them without problems.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    So you just worry about your BiS gear from T4-T5 Rem will be removed, and people can keep cloak? Next day SSG can add level cap to that too. And 40 extra quickshots can be only in ideal situation with ideal internet. Maybe if you attack dummy you can do them without problems.
    If 2 people have lag, who will pull off more attacks? The one without -4% induction or the one with -4% induction? Easy, the person who does have the cloak.

    What about when it's not lagging? Easy, the person with the cloak

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    If 2 people have lag, who will pull off more attacks? The one without -4% induction or the one with -4% induction? Easy, the person who does have the cloak.

    What about when it's not lagging? Easy, the person with the cloak
    This is an awful lot of worry over one small thing. It's got to the point now where it's coming over more as some kind of vendetta against festivals, more than anything else, and certainly more than any genuine concern for the game. You've made if quite clear that you are not opposed to wearing "old" items for advantage in some of your posts in this thread, for example, items you can get by running a level 120 raid. So, it's more a case of this problem being a festival thing, than it being an item that could be used for a while thing.

    As a person that does not have the cloak - because I really couldn't be bothered to grind that instance out, not even on t1, not pulling off those extra quick shots isn't going to bother me. As of yet I've not been excluded for turning up without sporting it and the runs have gone just the same as they have before it existed.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    If 2 people have lag, who will pull off more attacks? The one without -4% induction or the one with -4% induction? Easy, the person who does have the cloak.

    What about when it's not lagging? Easy, the person with the cloak
    Person who younger and have quicker reflexes to use right buttons, of course. Lotro have aged community, and not everyone can notice and use that difference with 0.3 seconds - 4%.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    3. if you have skills that take 0.3s to use, let's say quickshot well reduce 4% off 300s = 12s extra time = 40 extra quickshots (or any skill u wanna use) thats a pretty big chunk of extra dmg in a raid.
    Now take a class like red runekeepers (if they become useful again) or loremasters and the increase in extra time will HUGELY increase, even more than hunters.
    The increase is 4%.
    Reduce that by the overall impact of cooldowns, induced vs. non-induced skills, cooldowns, animation delays.
    In the wide average I would guess that overall contribution is 1-2% in the theoretical *best* case. Red RKs and LMs would probably see a little more, other classes less to almost nothing.

    EDIT: Servers can handle it. 4% of 0.5s=20ms (not 2 as in my initial post). I would expect that this is the order of magnitude of what the servers can do.

    IMO there is only *one* relevant discussion point, which is player motivation. Is it bad for the motivation of people that want to have better items than others? Is it good for the motivation of people that just want to have some improvement? Is it good for people that just want to have shinies? What is the importance of balancing these motivations? What is the number of players that are affected by this motivation?

    And again, I am a European user, I want a -70ms cloak. (just kidding)
    Last edited by thinx; Apr 08 2021 at 10:12 AM.

  14. #14
    Yes these cloaks will FOREVER be the best option. Just like hytbold armor has forever been the best option for some bonuses. Great thing there is nothing ssg can do about it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLotroFan View Post
    Yes these cloaks will FOREVER be the best option. Just like hytbold armor has forever been the best option for some bonuses. Great thing there is nothing ssg can do about it.
    We can already predict that the new raid will bring another item level iteration, maybe even an item color iteration... (noted the sarcasm, just wanted to add my prediction)

  16. #16
    even as its only 4% you can very much feel the difference in a rotation and it makes transitioning much faster between induction attacks

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by BinaryTertiary View Post
    even as its only 4% you can very much feel the difference in a rotation and it makes transitioning much faster between induction attacks
    I can believe statistically 4% more actions measurable over time but this is a mental feeling not a physiological occurrence.

    “The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus.”

    Or read the very in depth Wikipedia article on Mental chronometry.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    This is an awful lot of worry over one small thing. It's got to the point now where it's coming over more as some kind of vendetta against festivals, more than anything else, and certainly more than any genuine concern for the game. You've made if quite clear that you are not opposed to wearing "old" items for advantage in some of your posts in this thread, for example, items you can get by running a level 120 raid. So, it's more a case of this problem being a festival thing, than it being an item that could be used for a while thing.
    It's in a bit of a weird situation because:

    I indeed do not oppose the usage of older sets, i very much support the freedom to use anything and this comes with a stats sacrifice, a great trade off.

    But the most important part and this is the part where the cloak fails is that i do not support the usage of old gear with these kind of specific bonuses which are NOT in the game anymore. Those pieces (like old golden pieces, pelennor, osgilliath) should either be returned into the game's loottables (my preference) OR it should be locked out completely as to not give any unfair advantages.

    This cloak will only be available for aprox a month every year AND comes from festival content. So not only is it time limited to get, but it's gotten from extremely easy content. BiS items ESPECIALLY items which are BiS for multiple level caps, do not ever belong inside of time limited and/or easy content. That's why im extremely against this golden cloak.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    I can believe statistically 4% more actions measurable over time but this is a mental feeling not a physiological occurrence.

    “The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus.”

    Or read the very in depth Wikipedia article on Mental chronometry.
    You are right about reaction limits, but perception limits are lower (20-40ms).
    I still agree about perception vs. reality though. When looking for an increase, the actual increase will feel bigger than it is.

    But still, the only measure is a few tens of parses at the dummy with an overcapped char (such that the additional stats from the cloak do not make a difference).

    I cannot help, as I was not really eager to farm and the RNG did me no favor.
    Last edited by thinx; Apr 08 2021 at 10:39 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    I can believe statistically 4% more actions measurable over time but this is a mental feeling not a physiological occurrence.

    “The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, 0.17 for an audio stimulus.”

    Or read the very in depth Wikipedia article on Mental chronometry.
    Most inductions are lengthy enough to remove a pretty good chunk of induction time with 4%. Now if you look at a 0.3s induction like quickshot, ofcourse it's a very small decrease in time but you can spam this skill all you want and thus it still adds up very quickly. You do not need any buffering time to think about this skill or whatever you just spam it untill you got stuff to use. Now factor in that in lotro the majority of inductions average about 1-2s (some are even 2.5-3s!) and you will look at a pretty strong decrease in time.

    For some classes it will have a small but still very noticeable impact like hunters and minstrels but for runekeepers and loremasters this is a huge bonus, i would even say a gamechanger honestly. Now with ''gamechanger'' i dont really mean a gamechanger, its not like ur all of a sudden gonna carry a raid on ur own or something but you just get the time to push in so many more ''bonus'' skills, which in the long run makes a pretty big impact on the amount you can provide. For example some loremasters i play with are adding more and more little skills in between their rotations due to bonuses such as these. They can provide millions of extra damage to the raid group than before and that is very noticeable on the time to kill, hunters can provide an even bigger damage boost now and who knows, if runekeepers get fixed this cloak will be their holy grail. On hunters and loremasters alone (all combined in a raid), you're already looking at tens of millions of extra dmg.
    Last edited by HolyDuckTape; Apr 08 2021 at 10:51 AM.

  21. #21
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    Some quick maths from a blue Mini's perspective: -25% Anthem, -20% from trait, -15% follow up, -10% LI, -10% anvil set, -10% yellow remmo set -> -90% induction time. Adding the cloak puts me at -94% which is a further 40%(!) decrease.
    Same goes for hunters but to a lesser extent (-60% -> -64% = -10% effective induction time)

    I would wear the cloak even if it was iLv50... so yes, for some classes it will be best in slot for quite a time I guess.


    Edit: Special thanks to thinx! LI seems to be multiplicative, so it is -82% (without cloak) -> -0,856% (with cloak) which results in -20% (1-14.4/18) effective induction time!
    Last edited by Soragrim; Apr 09 2021 at 08:20 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soragrim View Post
    Some quick maths from a blue Mini's perspective: -25% Anthem, -20% from trait, -15% follow up, -10% LI, -10% anvil set, -10% yellow remmo set -> -90% induction time. Adding the cloak puts me at -94% which is a further 40%(!) decrease.
    Same goes for hunters but to a lesser extent (-60% -> -64% = -10% effective induction time)

    I would wear the cloak even if it was iLv50... so yes, for some classes it will be best in slot for quite a time I guess.
    Now, i do not think this is how it works. We will not get this big of a boost. The way induction buffs seem to work is that they all count separately. Let's say u got a 5s induction, remove 10% = 4.5s Now lets get a -5% induction buff on top of it, it will actually remove 5% induction speed off the 4.5s and not the original 5s. Pretty much diminishing returns

    Correct me if im wrong tho, im not so experienced with induction classes

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    Now, i do not think this is how it works. We will not get this big of a boost. The way induction buffs seem to work is that they all count separately. Let's say u got a 5s induction, remove 10% = 4.5s Now lets get a -5% induction buff on top of it, it will actually remove 5% induction speed off the 4.5s and not the original 5s. Pretty much diminishing returns

    Correct me if im wrong tho, im not so experienced with induction classes
    What you're describing is how it works with -attack duration, yeah. But induction reductions are all straight additive.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    What you're describing is how it works with -attack duration, yeah. But induction reductions are all straight additive.
    Yikes, then this cloak is much stronger than i expected which makes it a lot worse of an issue

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    Yikes, then this cloak is much stronger than i expected which makes it a lot worse of an issue
    Yeah I'm like 95% sure of that. Not at my PC but if I was I'd retrait LM to pick up Skilled Hands (-15%) deep yellow 28 pts, Rapid Fire (-25%) mid red 40 pts, and Prepared Material (-15%) early blue 26 pts. If additive, that makes a 2s induction like Cracked Earth down to .9s, if multiplicative that makes it 1.1s rounded up as we know the tooltips are.

    And totally, it being additive only compounds how meaningful even -4% is.
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