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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by istvana View Post
    I remember the Beorning as a good solo class from the day I started it but I didn't buy it the day or even the month it was released so maybe it had been changed by then.

    Let us suppose for ease of discussion that it takes 500 scrolls to maximize a newly imbued LI. Let us assume that the number is the same whether you imbue it at level 50 or level 100. This is a big assumption that may not be correct but it is the foundation of my hope. Finally let us assume that if they make this change they will put ways of getting scrolls into level 50+ content. That seems highly likely.

    So today we need 500 scrolls from level 100+ content and the accursed store. If the path from level 50 to 100 gives half of this we will only need 250 scrolls from level 100+ content. But that is too optimistic. So assume leveling to 100 gives 100 scrolls. That means we still need 400.

    In exchange for a system where we constantly level and destroy temporary LIs we will have a system that reduces the grind at 100 from 500 to 400 not because of extra grinding earlier in the game but from the leveling we would have done anyway. That is why I have hope that a change like this will help.

    Add to this the presumed ability to grind at lower level to reduce this 400 to 300 or 200 or even lower. Grind at lower level isn't any more fun than at 100+ but at least the overall grind will be spread out over 80 levels of a character's life insteas of over 30 levels.
    The point Wisp is making (as I read it anyway) is that no matter where they put these scrolls, they will always be tucked under region end grinds. That will always mean stopping at the end of regions to do repeatable content until the LI has caught up, before moving on, or moving on but stepping back for days or weeks. Players levelling up do not really want their flow through the story broken up in that way. Its like reading to the end of chapter 1, then reading through chapter 2, but going back to chapter 1 again tomorrow, then the next day reading chapter 3, and going back to chapter 1 again, and so forth. That's no way to read a story, and it's definitely no way to write one.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post

    And no wonder they don't want to fix guardians amongst other classes/builds when the can sell us an entirely new class and all the revenue another character levelling up will bring them.
    QFT, this is why they intentionally broke Guardians in the first place.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    The point Wisp is making (as I read it anyway) is that no matter where they put these scrolls, they will always be tucked under region end grinds. That will always mean stopping at the end of regions to do repeatable content until the LI has caught up, before moving on, or moving on but stepping back for days or weeks. Players levelling up do not really want their flow through the story broken up in that way. Its like reading to the end of chapter 1, then reading through chapter 2, but going back to chapter 1 again tomorrow, then the next day reading chapter 3, and going back to chapter 1 again, and so forth. That's no way to read a story, and it's definitely no way to write one.

    Exactly. Horrible design.

  4. #54
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    I understood wisp's point and agree it has some merit. My own point is that any scrolls or crystals gotten by normal leveling necessarily reduce the number that we need to grind for. That seems like a truism. Suppose they change the Moria rewards a bit and give out 10 scrolls and 3 crystals. That is 10 scrolls and 3 crystals I need to grind for now but would *not* need to grind for under a hypothetical new system. It by no means solves all problems but I would rather grind for 490 then grind for 500.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by istvana View Post
    I understood wisp's point and agree it has some merit. My own point is that any scrolls or crystals gotten by normal leveling necessarily reduce the number that we need to grind for. That seems like a truism. Suppose they change the Moria rewards a bit and give out 10 scrolls and 3 crystals. That is 10 scrolls and 3 crystals I need to grind for now but would *not* need to grind for under a hypothetical new system. It by no means solves all problems but I would rather grind for 490 then grind for 500.
    And where do you think they would put these 10 scroll and three crystals? Moria has no repeatable solo content, it only has a group play instance cluster, which unless you're levelling up with 5 friends, isn't going to be of any use - while that level content is relevant. Sure they could put a quest in , run here, do that for a few days and complete a weekly wrapper for those items, but then, players have to keep running back to old content again - much like the system we have already.

    It wouldn't by any stretch of the word, be a "fix", although, they will try to call it one. It will be what we have now - just spread over a bigger map.

    The concept of "grow with you" isn't lost, it was never found to begin with. They have no idea how to do it, despite numerous direct suggestions over the last three years on exactly how it can be done. Of all the players that I know that have left the game (and that figure is quite high now) this system is the main contender as to why they left. Still, SSG try to hold onto it, like sand flowing from a broken bucket.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  6. #56
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    When someone argues with the self-evident truth that if they get scrolls at level 50 they won't need to grind the same scrolls at level 100 - not just once but repeatedly - it becomes clear that they aren't trying to analyze plusses and minuses they are trying to be as negative as possible and disagree with anyone that chooses not to always be negative. They can very easily give scrolls and crystals as quest rewards and if the scrolls and crystals are limited to low tier they are far less valuable than e.g. the scrolls and crystals they have given for many years as Gondor quest rewards. Which I am certain you are quite familiar with - they just undercut your predetermined position so you would never mention them.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by istvana View Post
    When someone argues with the self-evident truth that if they get scrolls at level 50 they won't need to grind the same scrolls at level 100 - not just once but repeatedly - it becomes clear that they aren't trying to analyze plusses and minuses they are trying to be as negative as possible and disagree with anyone that chooses not to always be negative. They can very easily give scrolls and crystals as quest rewards and if the scrolls and crystals are limited to low tier they are far less valuable than e.g. the scrolls and crystals they have given for many years as Gondor quest rewards. Which I am certain you are quite familiar with - they just undercut your predetermined position so you would never mention them.
    the level 50 LI is way below the lvl 100 LI. Scrolls and crystals will be needed to get to a lvl 100 LI and as of there we still need what we need now. We will need at least twice as many scrolls and crystals then now unless they actually have the ILIs grow with us. There is a pittance of quest scroll/crystal rewards and DA/East Gondor and now NIthilien quest currency is not enough to get what is needed just for doing the one time quests.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by istvana View Post
    When someone argues with the self-evident truth that if they get scrolls at level 50 they won't need to grind the same scrolls at level 100 - not just once but repeatedly - it becomes clear that they aren't trying to analyze plusses and minuses they are trying to be as negative as possible and disagree with anyone that chooses not to always be negative. They can very easily give scrolls and crystals as quest rewards and if the scrolls and crystals are limited to low tier they are far less valuable than e.g. the scrolls and crystals they have given for many years as Gondor quest rewards. Which I am certain you are quite familiar with - they just undercut your predetermined position so you would never mention them.
    There are 10 scroll rewards in the game for quests after level 100, and 7 crystals.

    Now, instead of picking up on negativity, instead, go back and look at the very first question I asked you. "where do you think they would put these 10 scrolls and three crystals?"

    I asked that question for a reason, which is - they haven't put many of these items behind quest rewards historically. 10/600 scrolls required and 7/60 crystals required.

    If they do decide to start imbuement earlier and start adding these items to normal quest flow through early content, all well and good. But if they don't, which is far more likely given the history involved, then the point I made, still stands. It's just more of the same, spread over a larger map, which just spreads the start-stop flow of levelling through story more across the game. It's bad enough from level 100 onward, we don't need it all over the game.

    This issue is so well documented by the player base and has been being brought up since Minas Tirith was end game. Since that time, they have placed a whopping 3 scrolls of empowerment into the game as normal quest rewards. 2 in the Epic and 1 in Sundergrot. If adding them in as quest rewards was to be the miracle cure that's required, they've have plenty of quest content since MT to make use of it. They haven't. In fact, the only thing they have done is "cut" earning potential just recently.

    It's kinda hard to not always be negative about this system, when you look at the evidence we have, rather than guessing what you think may happen in the future.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  9. #59
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    Well this thread got de-railed fast..... NO SORRY - not de-railed... maybe just sent down a railway siding... not completely in the wrong direction but it leads knowhere !!





    How do the forum reader feel about the way the "ask anything format" that was used?

    I personally think it was very unprofessional and hap-hazard to the point of incompetent (maybe hubris) but maybe that was intentional, to fool most people into thinking they were randomly choosing a broad spectrum of questions.
    There was a quite legitimate thread with questions asked by a broad slice of the player base and what do they do? Completely ignore it.

    My humble opinion is that for the next QA with Severlin, we should be able to ask the questions that is raised in a thread and compiled by someone who isn't a CM or Mod or livestreamer because all of them have a vested interest as to not ask the difficult questions.

    Then, it will be worth the effort for them to do it and for us to bother to listen. If they don't then only those who are so desperate for any hope that they will take whatever slice of bullcrap that is served and gobble it down with delight but before to long that same unpalatable bullcrap will be hurling its way back into your lap....
    ----A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything----

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin View Post
    My humble opinion is that for the next QA with Severlin, we should be able to ask the questions that is raised in a thread and compiled by someone who isn't a CM or Mod or livestreamer because all of them have a vested interest as to not ask the difficult questions.
    I think we should turn it into a drinking game.

    Drink every time Sev answers a question with, "that's something we're always looking at doing," or "That's something we will eventually like to get around to," or "That's something we definitely want to get to," or "That's something we will get around to but I can't give you a timeframe."

    Drink twice every time Cordonvan interrupts Severlin while Severlin is actually about to give out real information.

    I expect we'll all get seriously wasted.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by SingularityNow View Post
    I think we should turn it into a drinking game.

    Drink every time Sev answers a question with, "that's something we're always looking at doing," or "That's something we will eventually like to get around to," or "That's something we definitely want to get to," or "That's something we will get around to but I can't give you a timeframe."

    Drink twice every time Cordonvan interrupts Severlin while Severlin is actually about to give out real information.

    I expect we'll all get seriously wasted.

    Very drunk. Very quickly.

  12. #62
    So very sad, so very true...

    We have a saying in Dutch;
    'Veel beloven, weinig geven
    doet de zot in vreugde leven'.

    Promising a lot while giving very little makes for a very happy fool.

    I'd say speak with your wallets, but looking at the amount of boars strolling through Bree, Galtrev, .. there's way more fools playing this game than you and I would have ever guessed and SSG, while doing an absolutely lousy job at.. well, their job, is doing an absolutely kick-### job in milking them.

    Or perhaps I'm going at this the wrong way; their job is to make money and at that, they're doing really well. We care for the integrity of the product, they care for the profitability of it. As long as there's enough of us 'haters', 'doomsayers' and 'sour folk' to complain, the fools can enjoy their boars, their festival grinds en their daily mumbojumbo while SSG continues to find ways to economically exploit it. Each actor plays it's part. I just hope for LotRO's sake there's a healthy balance between them.

    Then again, what do I care.. I haven't logged in in weeks, launched the game twice, but didn't get past login screen. I'm just checking the forums every few weeks, seeing the same complaints, the same forum arguments, the same lousy promises and absolutely no change. It'll be a few more weeks before I check back, but I don't have any expectations. Not for the stability of the game, not for the community and not for any of the promises made.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by SingularityNow View Post
    I think we should turn it into a drinking game.

    Drink every time Sev answers a question with, "that's something we're always looking at doing," or "That's something we will eventually like to get around to," or "That's something we definitely want to get to," or "That's something we will get around to but I can't give you a timeframe."

    Drink twice every time Cordonvan interrupts Severlin while Severlin is actually about to give out real information.

    I expect we'll all get seriously wasted.
    Made my day!

    Seriously, sometimes i think Cordovan knows a lot more things or is likely more in charge for the game like "just" CM.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    Cord seemed not to think it necessary to close the exploit as it wasn't likely to be common practice (paraphrasing) but it being a hefty store/expac purchase one might think there wasn't the motivation if it meant fewer sales.
    Thanks Braer. I was more wondering if any blue name ever said it to be an exploit. It looked to me like intended feature, being account bound and also part of the bundle purchase. I used it as a way to level up the only class that I didn't have on end level.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirhaen View Post
    Thanks Braer. I was more wondering if any blue name ever said it to be an exploit. It looked to me like intended feature, being account bound and also part of the bundle purchase. I used it as a way to level up the only class that I didn't have on end level.
    The nearest we got was the posing of a question as to why anyone would want to use a valar 120 a second time. So either the answer wasn't sort or it was and turned out to be within their interest perhaps. I struggle to find another explanation. We are told by our CM that our feedback is read...

    ---

    But the issue is really that we have a CM who was set on course by a predecessor and a millstone that recently suggested raiders were too lazy to do skirm grind for portents (given recent threads) while at the same time showing surprise at the slow Mo Towers ending! Going out of your way to avoid the players issues means (to him) plausible denial. For the rest of us we're exposed to all the issues and left to find ways to plot our way around them (> a day). But that at least has us armed, when you avoid everything you either learn nothing or come so late to it it's ancient history.

    The stream was more of the "nothing to see here" than any recognition of the need to change strategy. Perhaps why they now struggle to identify "exploits".

    EDIT: Given the BR notes I've just read they seem to have chosen on doubling down on the exploit.
    Last edited by Braer; Feb 23 2021 at 12:56 PM.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    The stream was more of the "nothing to see here" than any recognition of the need to change strategy. Perhaps why they now struggle to identify "exploits".

    EDIT: Given the BR notes I've just read they seem to have chosen on doubling down on the exploit.
    This is a weird angle to take.

    Why push for Valar VXP to be character-bound when you could push for a reduction in the amount of VXP required so people don't feel like they have to purchase Valars for VXP?
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    This is a weird angle to take.

    Why push for Valar VXP to be character-bound when you could push for a reduction in the amount of VXP required so people don't feel like they have to purchase Valars for VXP?
    It's the first time I have ever noticed a BR patch notes post Closed for Comment on the day of posting. A miss-step?

    What it does is make sure anyone can use and park a character at 120 and harvest Virtue Exp for other characters whenever their pay packet allows. Yes SSG, I'm explaining the mechanic for the dumber players who can't work it out from the notes, you're welcome!

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    Yes SSG, I'm explaining the mechanic for the dumber players who can't work it out from the notes, you're welcome!
    Thanks? lol

    I just read notes. I have no mind for exploits and I never used any, not that I am aware of anyway. I understood what you talking about, difference was that I haven't seen it as an exploit. For me it was intended feature so to say.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braer View Post
    It's the first time I have ever noticed a BR patch notes post Closed for Comment on the day of posting. A miss-step?

    What it does is make sure anyone can use and park a character at 120 and harvest Virtue Exp for other characters whenever their pay packet allows. Yes SSG, I'm explaining the mechanic for the dumber players who can't work it out from the notes, you're welcome!
    ...Yeah, should really be making level 50 characters and using the valar upgrade to 105 as it's cheaper per valar but gives the same VXP. Only downside is the fact that you need to purchase and open all the valar boxes before consuming the level boost, which means you need to make a new 50 toon for each batch of valars you do this way.

    Still, the best way of reducing the impact of this loophole is to reduce the amount of VXP you need to cap out virtues to be more in-line with the amount of VXP you get from in-game sources. Clearing all deeds should cap all virtues rather than merely getting you 2/3rds of the way at best.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Still, the best way of reducing the impact of this loophole is to reduce the amount of VXP you need to cap out virtues to be more in-line with the amount of VXP you get from in-game sources. Clearing all deeds should cap all virtues rather than merely getting you 2/3rds of the way at best.
    Or increase the amount you get as you go higher in the game. Bree-land sickle flies should not give the same VXP as beasts in East Gondor.

    Mirage
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rimenuir View Post
    Or increase the amount you get as you go higher in the game. Bree-land sickle flies should not give the same VXP as beasts in East Gondor.
    In fact a good solution, but not because low level content "should" give lower VXP.

    The problem is the number of repetitions combined with the stat progression is a problem.
    • virtues are worthless if they are not close to the virtue level that corresponds to a certain character level. E.g. current virtue stat progression starts at virtue level 60, before you get negligible contributions.
    • The number of repetitions to get virtues to a relevant level is insane.
    • Splitting up this number over a longer time does not make it better.
    • Doing relevant parts of this grind at lower levels means to foster a solo completionist playstyle.


    IMO the only solution would be to scale VXP with quest/deed level, as you suggested.

    Virtue XP rewards should be designed such that doing content on your respective cap gets you to the matching virtue level with a fixed number of repetitions.
    People can still go above that level (with increasing effort, like today) until their respective level dependent virtue cap.
    Example:
    • Without checking the numbers (needs to be done) I assume that virtues of an L65 char become relevant at virtue level 30. Getting to that level should require N repetitions of L65 content.
    • At the same time we can say that virtue levels for an L130 char become relevant at 60. Getting there should require N repetitions of L130 content.
    • Drive-by deeding will help a little.
    • The number N needs to be sane


    This means any player that wants to max character virtues at a given character level needs to spend the same work.
    If you want to repeat that at every cap, you need to spend more work - but not more work as the players that played at that time.
    If you just level, the amount of catch-up grind remains sane.

    VXP income at a given char level needs to be tuned to the vxp progression for that level. I guess this can be expressed with a VXP progression formula. We do have such a formula, but progression is too slow and so the number of repetitions increases constantly.

 

 
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