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  1. #76
    logically if they want only imbued system from lvl 50 onwards then they NEED to give certain quest rewards with star-lit crystals, hopefully chain-ending quests could have those
    if they do that then this will be more than fine

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Elebraen View Post

    Completionists will do it, and the raiders will demand it to stay in their kins, but it's not a requirement to achieve max in all virtues to be able to successfully play the game. The flaw in the reasoning there is to think that you must do it just because it can be done, and then you complain about having to do it, lol. Nutters.
    Lets just stay on this.

    Player 1, completionist, all virtues maxed, best legacies on ILIs all capped, BIS in every slot with perfect gold essnces.

    Player 2, finished most deeds, has 5-7 virtues capped and at least capped crystals on the ILIs, quest reward gear with dropped essences.

    Player 3 just quests through a new region and then goes to an alt.

    Now a new xpac comes out.

    Player 1, this is face roll.

    Player 2 this is interesting, at times challenging.

    Player 3, this is tedious, frustrating and way to hard.

    Who is right? When ever growing systems determine the strength of a character you end up with a complete balance mess. 5 virtues might be enough to have capped but what if all of a sudden the new content requires defense instead of offense to stay alive? What if the dropped essences are boosting all the wrong stats but I have nothing else to put in the slots? What if I need these extra 2 crystals but the next festival is weeks off.
    By catering to completionists others get frustrated because they are always chasing even the minimum. I want my character "finished" at one point, questing with other character and "finish" them as well. But the finishing line moves constantly.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by BinaryTertiary View Post
    logically if they want only imbued system from lvl 50 onwards then they NEED to give certain quest rewards with star-lit crystals,

    While "logically" this would certainly make sense, please remember that "logic" has never been a strong point with this company when it comes to LIs.

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    Lets just stay on this.

    Player 1, completionist, all virtues maxed, best legacies on ILIs all capped, BIS in every slot with perfect gold essnces.

    Player 2, finished most deeds, has 5-7 virtues capped and at least capped crystals on the ILIs, quest reward gear with dropped essences.

    Player 3 just quests through a new region and then goes to an alt.

    Now a new xpac comes out.

    Player 1, this is face roll.

    Player 2 this is interesting, at times challenging.

    Player 3, this is tedious, frustrating and way to hard.

    Who is right? When ever growing systems determine the strength of a character you end up with a complete balance mess. 5 virtues might be enough to have capped but what if all of a sudden the new content requires defense instead of offense to stay alive? What if the dropped essences are boosting all the wrong stats but I have nothing else to put in the slots? What if I need these extra 2 crystals but the next festival is weeks off.
    By catering to completionists others get frustrated because they are always chasing even the minimum. I want my character "finished" at one point, questing with other character and "finish" them as well. But the finishing line moves constantly.
    It is an evergrowing MMO after all, and every time they add a new region, the finish line gets moved. I expect no less from the addition of Gundabad. But go back in patch note time and mark the "finish lines", the month and year that new regions got added, the crystal and scroll requirements got played with and the level caps got increased. It's actually been fairly consistent and predictable (6-7 scrolls and crystals per legacy for new region w lvl cap increase of 5) up to the last increase where they made scrolls increase from 69 to 83 for the latest cap (14 scrolls per legacy, 10 lvls added for lvl cap increase from 120 to 130 instead of 5). In the beginning, you only had 25 tiers opened before needing to add crystals with an original finish line of 40 (15 crystals to lvl cap 100), and now it's 38 tiers opened with a finish line of 71 (33 crystals to lvl 130, but 5 additional expansions and quest packs, too). They do move that requirement line to require less investment at "the beginning" even while they're adding more investment at "the end". IMO, they haven't moved that requirement line enough, nor made the crystals to tier 50 inexpensive enough for the little amount of DPS they actually add. But if they're going to look more closely at it this year, then I'll wait to see what they do with it.

    I don't see them catering to completionists, nor to raiders for that matter. But there is a point where one MUST develop the ILI or they can no longer play the game, to your own point of there being three different types of players. That is the one thing that all three types have in common. There are no other weapon choices beyond Pelannor unless you get lucky with a landscape drop for your class and level, and there are 0 class item substitutions. And you can't play the game at all without a decent weapon and class item, unless maybe the Brawler class can pull that off with some amazing fisticuffs. There's a huge sore spot amongst all players there with the ILIs, and that's why. It's do or die, a game-breaker if you don't do it. And we all still want to keep playing the game. So we do it, begrudgingly, and with bitterness for getting our arms twisted.

    Contrast that with essence slotted raid armor versus standard landscape or bartered or crafted armor that requires no essences. I can continue to play the game with landscape armor. Raiding for better armor is a choice that I make, but it's not a do or die requirement to be able to play the core regions of the game. Put in the wrong essences? Most of the time, I play with nothing in my armor essence slots while I wait for a class suitable essence drop to plug in there. It's not a game breaker to slot the wrong essences in armor that is going to be obsolete in 5 levels anyway, unless I'm trying to do raids that way.

    Nor is maxing out all virtues a MUST do requirement. People will naturally work for what they want to have, and if they want a few more maxed out virtues so they can trade offense for defense, they'll finish off some old deeds or do the virtue grind or buy they're own way out of it with Valars. If I was to make any suggestion there, it would be to add a reset button to virtue points so I can reslot my points the way I want them and eliminate points in the virtues that I would never use. But as I recall, there were technical programming problems with doing that at the very beginning and we just sucked it up then. It's not a new suggestion. It was just something they couldn't offer when they changed the virtue system and we got an apology from the devs instead.

    But you seem to be saying that Yesterday's News isn't going to work in Tomorrow's Views... what if, what if, what if. Are you discovering that you haven't been able to play the game when Today's coveted maxed out equipment becomes completely obsolete in the next update? That's rather expected that I've never worked for "the end game" equipment. I've always worked for "the current game" equipment, whatever point in the game I happen to be playing in when I discover that I need better X, Y or Z to be able to complete that region of it. If raiding is what I want to do, then raiding becomes "the current game" and I figure out how to obtain X, Y and Z to play the raid successfully. That's what balance means. It's when I can't obtain X, Y and Z to be able to play the game successfully that I start complaining and hope the devs will start listening.
    Last edited by Elebraen; Yesterday at 02:44 AM.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
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    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    2,946
    Quote Originally Posted by Elebraen View Post
    It is an evergrowing MMO after all, and every time they add a new region, the finish line gets moved. I expect no less from the addition of Gundabad. But go back in patch note time and mark the "finish lines", the month and year that new regions got added, the crystal and scroll requirements got played with and the level caps got increased. It's actually been fairly consistent and predictable (6-7 scrolls and crystals per legacy for new region w lvl cap increase of 5) up to the last increase where they made scrolls increase from 69 to 83 for the latest cap (14 scrolls per legacy, 10 lvls added for lvl cap increase from 120 to 130 instead of 5). In the beginning, you only had 25 tiers opened before needing to add crystals with an original finish line of 40 (15 crystals to lvl cap 100), and now it's 38 tiers opened with a finish line of 71 (33 crystals to lvl 130, but 5 additional expansions and quest packs, too). They do move that requirement line to require less investment at "the beginning" even while they're adding more investment at "the end". IMO, they haven't moved that requirement line enough, nor made the crystals to tier 50 inexpensive enough for the little amount of DPS they actually add. But if they're going to look more closely at it this year, then I'll wait to see what they do with it.

    I don't see them catering to completionists, nor to raiders for that matter. But there is a point where one MUST develop the ILI or they can no longer play the game, to your own point of there being three different types of players. That is the one thing that all three types have in common. There are no other weapon choices beyond Pelannor unless you get lucky with a landscape drop for your class and level, and there are 0 class item substitutions. And you can't play the game at all without a decent weapon and class item, unless maybe the Brawler class can pull that off with some amazing fisticuffs. There's a huge sore spot amongst all players there with the ILIs, and that's why. It's do or die, a game-breaker if you don't do it. And we all still want to keep playing the game. So we do it, begrudgingly, and with bitterness for getting our arms twisted.

    Contrast that with essence slotted raid armor versus standard landscape or bartered or crafted armor that requires no essences. I can continue to play the game with landscape armor. Raiding for better armor is a choice that I make, but it's not a do or die requirement to be able to play the core regions of the game. Put in the wrong essences? Most of the time, I play with nothing in my armor essence slots while I wait for a class suitable essence drop to plug in there. It's not a game breaker to slot the wrong essences in armor that is going to be obsolete in 5 levels anyway, unless I'm trying to do raids that way.

    Nor is maxing out all virtues a MUST do requirement. People will naturally work for what they want to have, and if they want a few more maxed out virtues so they can trade offense for defense, they'll finish off some old deeds or do the virtue grind or buy they're own way out of it with Valars. If I was to make any suggestion there, it would be to add a reset button to virtue points so I can reslot my points the way I want them and eliminate points in the virtues that I would never use. But as I recall, there were technical programming problems with doing that at the very beginning and we just sucked it up then. It's not a new suggestion. It was just something they couldn't offer when they changed the virtue system and we got an apology from the devs instead.

    But you seem to be saying that Yesterday's News isn't going to work in Tomorrow's Views... what if, what if, what if. Are you discovering that you haven't been able to play the game when Today's coveted maxed out equipment becomes completely obsolete in the next update? That's rather expected that I've never worked for "the end game" equipment. I've always worked for "the current game" equipment, whatever point in the game I happen to be playing in when I discover that I need better X, Y or Z to be able to complete that region of it. If raiding is what I want to do, then raiding becomes "the current game" and I figure out how to obtain X, Y and Z to play the raid successfully. That's what balance means. It's when I can't obtain X, Y and Z to be able to play the game successfully that I start complaining and hope the devs will start listening.
    IMHO in one day they must develop LI in same method what we get with Virtue System Revamp - revamp LI weapons and LI class items, and allow us barter level 100 LI with new level 140 LI (with better stats) what have amount of legacies according on how many legacies we have in old LI, and same LI title and relics. All methods how gain SoE and crystals can be discussed, but IMHO change between LI must working this way to make less amount of players angry.

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Elebraen View Post
    It is an evergrowing MMO after all, and every time they add a new region, the finish line gets moved. I expect no less from the addition of Gundabad. But go back in patch note time and mark the "finish lines", the month and year that new regions got added, the crystal and scroll requirements got played with and the level caps got increased. It's actually been fairly consistent and predictable (6-7 scrolls and crystals per legacy for new region w lvl cap increase of 5) up to the last increase where they made scrolls increase from 69 to 83 for the latest cap (14 scrolls per legacy, 10 lvls added for lvl cap increase from 120 to 130 instead of 5). In the beginning, you only had 25 tiers opened before needing to add crystals with an original finish line of 40 (15 crystals to lvl cap 100), and now it's 38 tiers opened with a finish line of 71 (33 crystals to lvl 130, but 5 additional expansions and quest packs, too). They do move that requirement line to require less investment at "the beginning" even while they're adding more investment at "the end". IMO, they haven't moved that requirement line enough, nor made the crystals to tier 50 inexpensive enough for the little amount of DPS they actually add. But if they're going to look more closely at it this year, then I'll wait to see what they do with it.

    I don't see them catering to completionists, nor to raiders for that matter. But there is a point where one MUST develop the ILI or they can no longer play the game, to your own point of there being three different types of players. That is the one thing that all three types have in common. There are no other weapon choices beyond Pelannor unless you get lucky with a landscape drop for your class and level, and there are 0 class item substitutions. And you can't play the game at all without a decent weapon and class item, unless maybe the Brawler class can pull that off with some amazing fisticuffs. There's a huge sore spot amongst all players there with the ILIs, and that's why. It's do or die, a game-breaker if you don't do it. And we all still want to keep playing the game. So we do it, begrudgingly, and with bitterness for getting our arms twisted.

    Contrast that with essence slotted raid armor versus standard landscape or bartered or crafted armor that requires no essences. I can continue to play the game with landscape armor. Raiding for better armor is a choice that I make, but it's not a do or die requirement to be able to play the core regions of the game. Put in the wrong essences? Most of the time, I play with nothing in my armor essence slots while I wait for a class suitable essence drop to plug in there. It's not a game breaker to slot the wrong essences in armor that is going to be obsolete in 5 levels anyway, unless I'm trying to do raids that way.




    Nor is maxing out all virtues a MUST do requirement. People will naturally work for what they want to have, and if they want a few more maxed out virtues so they can trade offense for defense, they'll finish off some old deeds or do the virtue grind or buy they're own way out of it with Valars. If I was to make any suggestion there, it would be to add a reset button to virtue points so I can reslot my points the way I want them and eliminate points in the virtues that I would never use. But as I recall, there were technical programming problems with doing that at the very beginning and we just sucked it up then. It's not a new suggestion. It was just something they couldn't offer when they changed the virtue system and we got an apology from the devs instead.

    But you seem to be saying that Yesterday's News isn't going to work in Tomorrow's Views... what if, what if, what if. Are you discovering that you haven't been able to play the game when Today's coveted maxed out equipment becomes completely obsolete in the next update? That's rather expected that I've never worked for "the end game" equipment. I've always worked for "the current game" equipment, whatever point in the game I happen to be playing in when I discover that I need better X, Y or Z to be able to complete that region of it. If raiding is what I want to do, then raiding becomes "the current game" and I figure out how to obtain X, Y and Z to play the raid successfully. That's what balance means. It's when I can't obtain X, Y and Z to be able to play the game successfully that I start complaining and hope the devs will start listening.
    I don't mind new levels because by playing the content they come automatically. I don't have to stop and make up previous end game to gain these levels, no repetitive content required. Waiting on festivals for crystals because they are not in current questing content to keep up is not exactly playing the newest content. And even then I fell behind because they "forgot" to add them for the landscape players. And this is it "MUST DEVELOP", stay behind and worry about playing old content/festivals to be able to play new content. Before imbuement this never was a requirement. New weapons/class items were given periodically as quest rewards and/or drops and also could be crafted at each level cap. And this is what is missing here. A catch up that brings new characters to a current free cap like a new item. New characters are expected to make up for years of ILI development by playing repetitive, at times boring content just to be able to continue playing. There is a reset on every peace of equipment with content updates even on the same level but not with these important items. Items/weapons that "grow with us", what a joke.

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    (...) . Items/weapons that "grow with us", what a joke.
    You misunderstood the statement. They didn't mean that the weapon will grow with your level, the annoying grind will grow with each level cap.
    Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
    Trapper of Foes needs better tools to fulfill it's supporting(CC and offensive debuffs) and DoT role.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatharil View Post
    You misunderstood the statement. They didn't mean that the weapon will grow with your level, the annoying grind will grow with each level cap.
    You are right in your assessment.

  9. #84
    Pardon my bad joke, but sometimes you can't do anything else once you gave up.
    Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
    Trapper of Foes needs better tools to fulfill it's supporting(CC and offensive debuffs) and DoT role.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    Lets just stay on this.

    Player 1, completionist, all virtues maxed, best legacies on ILIs all capped, BIS in every slot with perfect gold essnces.

    Player 2, finished most deeds, has 5-7 virtues capped and at least capped crystals on the ILIs, quest reward gear with dropped essences.

    Player 3 just quests through a new region and then goes to an alt.

    Now a new xpac comes out.

    Player 1, this is face roll.

    Player 2 this is interesting, at times challenging.

    Player 3, this is tedious, frustrating and way to hard.

    Who is right? When ever growing systems determine the strength of a character you end up with a complete balance mess. 5 virtues might be enough to have capped but what if all of a sudden the new content requires defense instead of offense to stay alive? What if the dropped essences are boosting all the wrong stats but I have nothing else to put in the slots? What if I need these extra 2 crystals but the next festival is weeks off.
    By catering to completionists others get frustrated because they are always chasing even the minimum. I want my character "finished" at one point, questing with other character and "finish" them as well. But the finishing line moves constantly.
    I guess I’m #2. A few months after a release I will be in mostly ember teals with some mixed teals and purples mixed in from epic and quests. Mixture of green and teal essences. Reaction on new xpac is right on for 2. Landscape and occasional old T1 (new T2) on multiple alts.

    2 opinions:

    What about the AH? selling a warmly box from questing can buy me 6-8 green essences from the AH in whatever stat I want. Used to be selling 3 SoEs from South wall (3 per day for 6 minutes work) would give me gold to buy 1 anfalas starlit. The AH is there. Why not use it? Purity? Do you grow your own food, raise and slaughter your own meat, weave cloth and make your own clothes? Didn’t think so. You go to a market like the AH.

    Second, there are many indications in recent patches/threads that raiders are catered to significantly. Throne (2-3 manned by top raid equipped, 6-9 manned by others) is the only major source of numbers of unbound unlimited tier starlits and SoEs. Landscape casuals can now only get bound tier limited SoEs and bound starlits are the rule in festivals and questing. What about the furor on using multiple Valars just for the VXP boosts? That really only benefits raiders and maximizers with $$ to buy from the store. Completionists would want to complete the content which BTW will not max out your virtues.

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatharil View Post
    You misunderstood the statement. They didn't mean that the weapon will grow with your level, the annoying grind will grow with each level cap.

    If that is correct, I am filled with new admiration for the SSG Devs. Never before in the history of MMOs has a goal been fulfilled more completely.

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,211
    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    Second, there are many indications in recent patches/threads that raiders are catered to significantly.(
    Wonder when the nonsensical classification of the community into the groups of raiders and non-raiders followed by random declarations that one part of the community is catered to at the expense of others will cease. It's a poor joke that we see parroted every year.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    911
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Wonder when the nonsensical classification of the community into the groups of raiders and non-raiders followed by random declarations that one part of the community is catered to at the expense of others will cease. It's a poor joke that we see parroted every year.
    The reason it may be "parroted" is because it is true. You have been around for some time.... remember when raiders got nothing? for years and years and the game was made for the solo player? Well now the pendulum has swung and everything in this game is geared to raiders or those folks who enjoy dressing up or dressing up a house.

    You know what, I am neither but I can live with it if they are the ones that keep the game going financially...
    ----A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything----

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,211
    Quote Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin View Post
    The reason it may be "parroted" is because it is true. You have been around for some time.... remember when raiders got nothing? for years and years and the game was made for the solo player? Well now the pendulum has swung and everything in this game is geared to raiders or those folks who enjoy dressing up or dressing up a house.
    Except the pendulum hasn't swung. They're doing all the things they did during 86-100, they just happen to also be building raid/group content on top of that.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

 

 
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