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  1. #1
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    My thoughts on the demise of Guardians and their current state + suggested changes

    Greetings my fellow shield bearers

    With the prospect of a guardian update (hopefully) looming I wanted to share my thoughts on where they stand and how they got there. I have been on a break for awhile and I have purposely not read through any of the other threads out there about needed guardian changes so I apologize for any thing that may have already been said elsewhere. I desired for this post to be my own thoughts. So, let us begin

    When did their light start to fade?

    I believe that the current state of Guardians has been coming to shape for a long time and lvl 130 was simply the tipping point which I find quite ironic since Samwise is the inspiration for the Guardian class and one of the best scenes that Samwise shows his qualities is when he faces down Shelob to save Frodo and yet, here at 130, the Shelob raid is the one Guardians have performed the worst at in all of my time playing.


    Part 1
    Level 105 was a good level cap, many I think can agree on that. And as we transitioned to 115 I think a stat trend emerged. 115 is when we as a whole (all classes) started to lean more and more into morale stacking and bland builds. Ignore the stuff with old sets, osgilliath/FI/Pelennor/Throne sets to mess around with, statting itself became more bland. I enjoyed finding a balance between masterful and robust (was that its name?) stat essences. ICH being worn on healers/LM's/tanks. Tanks wearing finesse and not being scoffed at, let alone avoidance essences. The dps statting is a different story mainly related to main stats only giving 2 points of mastery now and not 8 but over in the tank and healing world the damage taken vs healing started to change, everything became burstier (we'll touch on this more later). Its apparentness grows more into lvl 120 and especially 130, but at 115 as I geared my guardians it was obvious that wearing avoidance essences was kinda meh. Here is a link to a forum thread I made a long time ago with some screenshots of one of my guards from 105 >> https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...se-to-the-past << In it you can see that I wear 3 ich, 3 evasion, 1 parry and 3 finesse essences. I also had a swap with 3 more ich essences in it for boss 4/5 of Throne. This is what you needed to get acceptable finesse levels, almost cap avoidances and a hefty amount of ich (I think 3 essences was about 10% ich). Right now on my 130 guard I have a finesse chest, 2 finesse settings, the finesse bow and gold finesse pockets and Im still 2 essences short of what I would consider to be a good finesse level (200k) to make sure warchant was almost never resisted or ward tactics/sting avoided. 0 ich essences at 130 because they give 1.5%, thats not worth it at all!

    What Im getting at with this is that the scaling is so off in essences that use to be pivotal, practically required to make a good build. That screenshot I posted was, in my opinion, as best as you could gear a guardian at 105, doing UO T2C no questions asked. Could you imagine inspecting a guard and seeing him slotting ich or avoidances essences now at 130? The caps arent even feasible to reach anymore, I got 3.3% evasion on my guard with 100k, Id have to fill my entire gear with avoidances essences to reach cap on them.

    Part 2
    I am going to use Vadokar for reference as I think he is a fantastic example of tank directed damage. Back at 105 Vado was the boss to do the most consistent damage to a tank out of all 6. I would check my CA after and have a crazy high tps but also have upwards of 60-70% avoidances. Part of that fully, the rest partially, mainly from his auto attacks. Couple that with the steady % based bleed from the grims and you had a good, constant source of damage on your tank using all of their traits. Avoidances for Vado's hurtful attacks and mits for the grims then ich to help yourself get healed and your finesse making sure the steady spawn of grims didn't leave your side and you could interrupt them with shield skills and keep your much needed tmits and avoidances from ward tactics up. We just do not seem to have that anymore, definitely not here at 130. Isvtha I think did a good job with it back in Anvil but thats about it in my opinion. So much damage is just burst mode. Be topped off for this incoming hit and you're set, such as the thrash from B1 of AD, distributed hits from Shelob, bleed tiering up hit from the B3 in remm or Thossy's big frontals.

    Bosses do not seem to have the auto attack potency they use to have, stuff that made avoidances really good, stuff that made Juggernaut just as good as Last Stand. Steady damage sources seem all but forgotten, the dangerous bleeds do like 300k every 3s+ such as the twins in Stairs. Just kill them before the bleed goes up or use raw damage reductions to beat this unavoidable damage such is the way of cappy tanks. Adds do not seem as prevalent in content anymore, they use to be stellar ways to bring in lots of steady outputting damage for tanks to avoid like in my Vado example (though with him the adds are used to make sure you have tmits). I mean mits arent even sought out anymore, its all about morale stacking, nothing comes hard enough and steady enough to overwhelm healers, they can burst their way through the hits. The whole point of mits is to reduce your tps to be lower than your hps but when all the damage comes spaced out far enough who cares? Just get enough morale to survive the swathes of damage and the healers can heal you up in the downtime instead of trying to fight for your survival every second.

    Part 3
    Captains. I mean they just outclass us in every way now for the content we are doing. But I want to bring up a point I think many people overlook, oathies. Back at 105 if you had a single tank fight such as Vado or some scaling bosses from OD/BG, you put the guard on them because the guard was hands down better at taking the damage and you had your 2nd cappy go red for that fight for a 2nd bladebro and 2nd oathies while maintaining cappy buffs for that fellowship. Now that 2nd oathies is not possible with the new oathy changes and I personally feel that was a major blow to guards ESPECIALLY given the buff to cappy healing. You simply want those cappy buffs in both groups + their healing but without oathies from the 2nd red cappy you might as well just have the cappy do the tank. Morale stacking is the meta, cappies do it better with their traits, they have raw damage reduction and they bring all their group goodies.

    So why have the 2nd cappy go red when they can't oathies? Its just inefficient, make them tank instead, kick the guard out, bring in another dps AND still get all those good cappy buffs and healing. The oathy change to me was horrendous, the old sets should have been removed instead. Remove that oathy immune buff and delete the old sets completely so a 2nd red cappy becomes the efficient way to go so long as the guard can tank the boss, and that is the big problem isn't it tho?

    We are simply outclassed with the content we have here at 130, and oathies is a piece of the puzzle I wanted to bring attention to because I don't think anyone thinks about it too much in terms of raid group composition, but the biggest class related thing to blindside guards was the healing buff to captains. Why would you EVER want a guardian to tank a 3/6man? No rez, no healing, nowhere near the group utility. The thing is I do not have any idea on this issue I'm afraid. I do not wish to see captains nerfed in the slightest, I think this issue lies with content design. There needs to be more tank directed damage and less group directed stuff for 6mans. A guard keeping good aggro on everything in smaller group content should be rewarded with minimal group damage, but instead there's just so much damage going to the group in smaller content that the captain buffs and healing and rez are just sooooooo bloody good.

    In conclusion
    That was kinda everywhere. But its purpose is to try and make apparent that I do not believe the main problem with tanking, notably with guards, lies in the class itself but in content and the horrible scaling of stats since lvl 105.

    • Avoidances and ICH need buffing, and a whole heck of a lot of it. Pump those numbers up. I personally would like to see guards capped on block from base gear alone, and then no more than 2-3 from parry/evasion to max them. Essences and base gear numbers increased all around. ICH I personally would like to see 3 essences of it equate to 10%.
    • Sit down and have a nice long talk with content designers. The upper levels of damage from everywhere needs to be brought wayyyy down and the frequency of said damage be brought wayy up. Make auto attacks from bosses more deadly, more constant, include adds in fights to bring in more steady smaller sources of damage and so they can do stuff. If shelob stops attacking the tank every 5s to web someone or spit tar or do a flop then that is down time for the morale stacked tank to get topped off.
    • Buff mit essences some. Please make tmit and pmit essences the same value again and bring the tmit numbers up in line.
    • Remove the old oathy sets and then remove the oathy immune buff so 2 red cappies could be viable once again for one tank fights (such as shelob)


    If we can change the content to once again be welcoming of tanks that do not just stack morale and bring avoidances/ich/mits back to the forefront I think most issues guards face will be resolved without them even being touched directly. And when that is done I think we could maybe see warden tanks reappear, perhaps the issues people think warden tanks suffer will start to dim once content doesn't #### on tanks with lack of raw damage reduction and morale boosting abilities.

    We do not need a Guardian update, we need a tanking update

    The Guardian

    Anyways, if the Guardian is getting looked at directly and will be receiving some kind of an update I would like to toss out my thoughts. Perhaps Vastin will surprise us all and do something none of us expect that fixes all our problems ./shrug. I for one trust the hand of Vastin. Here are some things I hope he could address though

    The class itself still has some stuff that with out a doubt have failed to scale. Here are some I can see atleast in blue line, please add anything I miss in the comments
    • Warrior's Heart ICH. Its only 1k, personally I would love to see it just become a %, something like 2-3%, then we never have to worry about it scaling poorly again
    • Adaptability. Gives about 1k a stack of block and parry... Another thing I think could be good as a %. Something like 1% full avoid, 2% partial avoid a stack. The % caps back at 105 were 25% if I am not mistaken but now they are 13% for full avoids, I think some new ways to go over cap with +% traits would be welcome and not out of the realm of balance.
    • Shield use! If LI revamp is truly in the works perhaps this shouldn't get to much attention, but atleast making it ICH like champ runes and burg bags would be welcome. Or make it % ich. There are 71 levels to starlits on LI's, so if it was .05% ich per starlit that would put us at 3.55%. A number between .05 and .1 could be good and not cause issues with balance.


    Some other changes I would like to see
    • Look at break ranks again. I think the idea of cashing out all your forts just needs to be forgotten. I'm simply not traiting it, ultimately doesn't matter to me, and 40% damage really is kinda nice, but cashing out all your forts is just... meh. I guess it could just be thought of more as a way to help them rival captains in 3man/6man farms.
    • Shield wall to get some degree of damage reduction or some buff. The Abyss set made it reduce the transfered damage by 33%, that was nifty. Maybe something like that or having it active could give the guardian a hefty ICH buff in the realm of 15% or so.
    • Litany to get a % buff added to it as well for the duration of its buff. 5% ich per stack of forts consumed
    • Ward tactics when specced red should give dps traits not block/parry imo. Right now it gives 68k b/p and 2.5% partial b/p. Thats not really needed for red line though :P Maybe some phys mastery and crit or finesse. Anything more dps focused.
    • Personally I would love to be able to spread bleeds again on guard with the yellow trait Radiate. Now that we just have our 3-4 bleeds and not 1 bleed abled to be tiered up to t10, could some consideration be put back into letting us spread them?
    • Have follow through give more targets to shield taunt as well. 4 targets is just so few...
    • Separating the -incoming damage buff on stoic from the bubble would be grand.


    Finally, can we get a tanking Rune? Something along the lines of the True Rune of the First Battle (4% partial evade mits, 2% partial parry mits. 606 parry/evade). I really don't know the answer to it and if we do get a tanking specific rune I trust whatever gets created. But I'm tired of a lvl 85 is it? rune being best in slot for my guard belt :P

    Edit:More red line stuff. I for one do not want our red line to be a raid line. I mean if we simply aren't going to get an actual tank update that actually addresses issues and actually makes tanking fun again and reasonably viable on more than just cappy THEN I suppose I'd take a dps upgrade to raiding standards :shrug:. I talked to another guard friend about this stuff and its pretty much all come from him but here's the red stuff I want to add

    • A bit more mph to crits. Possibly some crit chance added to our trait tree. The trait Heavy Weapons Training (which increases skill damage by up to 5%) could be a fitting place to add some kind of crit boosting.
    • Some traits in red are just super meh even for the "super casual landscape player" argument. Thrill of Battle use to be the best solo dpsing trait in the game, you could literally solo Helegrod gaint wing + many other instances on level with that. Understandably overpowered then lol but now it just so bad. Simply because it only procs on crits from your parry response and shield response skills and the healing is abysmal at that, 2.5% of a 400k morale fully geared dps'er is only a 10k heal every 8s. Seriously that is just terrible, not to mention you could get unlucky with crits when going through your parry chain and not get the heal at all. Honourable combat is also a horrendous heal. At best it is a 12% heal every 45s IF you have all 4 bleeds up. Thats 48k on a 400k morale guard, guess it can be a 24% heal and become a 96k heal if you have your sweeping cut bleed up on 4 other targets. Not that great.. Other skills like Prey on the Weak and Reactive Parry could go to simply do enough damage to atleast be seen
    • Maybe re-organize some of the traits in our tree. Like instead of it taking 5 points to get the guaranteed bleed from brutal assault via haemorrhage, have it guarantee a bleed with 1 point and have the remaining points focus on increasing brutal assaults damage and its specific bleed damage. Same with blind rage, instead it needing 5 points simply to guarantee the applications of the buff, have 1 point guarantee the buff and leave the rest of the trait to buffing the skills damage. etc etc. Just seems to be some boring 5 or 6 point traits in our red tree.
    • Make protection by the sword's 2% damage atleast a raid wide buff, not group specific (maybe buff that measely 2% melee damage to 5% also?). And have it grant a hefty load of parry to go with it, afterall it does require the protectee to parry an attack to give the guardian their buff.


    Well there is my 2copper (maybe a bit more). Just to reiterate, I truly believe the issue with guards does not lie mainly with the class itself but the content and scaling of stats. Bring back avoidance/ICh essences, change up how damage is being dealt in raids, less big hits infrequently, more small hits frequently. When you are having issues killing tanks at this level cap don't just keep hiking the damage value up, make it come more often instead, make mits have to be slotted and buff tmit essences some at the same time.

    The ONE stat without a cap should not be the most important thing to slot.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Olebenny; Jan 26 2021 at 08:33 AM.
    Lvl 130 Guard - Olebenny || Lvl 130 Guard - Theoderad || Lvl 130 Guard - Estelrian || Lvl 130 Captain - Galtherium || Lvl 130 Runekeeper - Leegun || Lvl 130 Mini - Nathorean || Lvl 130 Champion - Cephrial
    Leader of Raiders Beneath the Shadow - Arkenstone
    What more does one need in LotRO than a lot of morale and a shield?

  2. #2
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    You're a little off in a few places (Throne was a lot less dangerous for tanks than you seem to recall and that 105 Guard build is really unoptimized*) but the conclusion is pretty solid.

    Just a couple of notes on your suggestions:
    • The % caps at 105 were 13%, 105 is where the BPE revamp came in and it was a flat buff to avoidance builds as it focused on boosting consistency. Boosting full chance by too much will result in damage being spikey again...I've gone through this in more depth elsewhere.
    • I'm entirely against shield wall getting a damage negate factor but that's mostly because it's a toggle. Considering that you the tank should really be able to take more damage than whomever you are shield walling this should be fine as is. If out-of-the-blue one shots are eliminated entirely then this becomes totally a non-issue.
    • Break ranks cashing out fortifications is kinda my favourite part of break ranks. We need more abilities like this where people have to sacrifice something to get something else, that kind of decision making is way more interesting than anything else.. They still need to give Break Ranks its own button though.
    • Litany doesn't really need any more bonuses, you're already climbing towards 90% mits with it. I'd probably just say that the redirect magnitude needs to be dropped a bit to make it something more reasonably survived (that doesn't wind up just requiring you to jump to a different group for the cashout). Although if big raidwide hits are less...big? Then comboing current litany with WH should be enough to survive whatever.
    • Ward in red should definitely give DPS boosts, also WH should probably be a DPS cooldown in that line rather than a heal (we have a weird lack of DPS cooldowns for DPS specs in this game).
    • Bleed spreading with radiate was so very buggy, so very, very buggy. Please no.


    Overall you've kinda side-stepped saying "Captains need adjusting" which is commendable but...they really do. Can't avoid that problem forever.


    * Apologies if that came off as insulting but Guard builds at 105 were kinda my forte.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    You're a little off in a few places (Throne was a lot less dangerous for tanks than you seem to recall and that 105 Guard build is really unoptimized*) but the conclusion is pretty solid.
    Love the reply, I'll comment on a couple things.

    First I am intentionally avoiding saying cappies need adjusting, call it naive, you are valid for sure. I just do not wish to get into the arguments with the cappy mains who don't want to see their class nerfed to give guardian's a chance at joining content. Right now I simply struggle to do AM comparatively to how easy it is for cappy, same goes for stuff like black lore and shelob is def the best example I think. Bringing them down will only make this content more difficult to do. Sure am and black lore are already pretty easy (and no one does black lore much anymore anyways) but making it all more difficult with cappies being "adjusted" I think is just an overall poor decision. At most captain/guard would have to meet in the middle on changes but again just not something I think is needed, more work should be put into instance design and overall statting buffs imo.

    Thankyou for the correction on avoidances. Something like adaptability able to go over cap I do not believe would see an increase in "spikeyness". A) The point of the trait is to add consistency, as you get hit, you adapt and up your avoidances. Kinda makes it pseudorandom in a way. and b) I think the idea with avoidances is to not try and avoid the 1 big hit from a boss but to have A LOT of attacks thrown your way (such as, to use vado again, his really fast attack speed) which will ultimately result in a constant damage reduction from avoidances as your sample size will simply grow large enough.

    Totally valid points on shield wall/litany. I for one would like an ich buff to couple shield wall but your point does stand for that, if it's is being used to take one of the big group wide hits, an ich buff would not help you really for a lot of the reasons we already know. And if those hits did get culled down especially in smaller group size content, the skill itself is most likely just fine at that point then. It's hard to find practical uses for shield wall :/

    Bleed spreading was/can be buggy, but being added again does not mean it has to be buggy. Fresh set of eyes on it and hopefully some good testing on BR. Bugs can and always will slip through unfortunately but I don't think its good philosophy to let that hinder desire for something to be added.

    Finally I know this 105 guard build is not optimized. It was my secondary guard on a different server from my main. My main guard (Olebenny) had a much more optimized build and just better stuff like actually capped stat tomes (since those did genuinely matter at 105). But it still did do a fine job, still handled UO T2c quite fine. I think the change in how we see damage dealt gives the illusion that throne was a cake walk for tanks, their job as a pure and 100% damage soaker only was not as prevalent with how spikey damage has became and I do not believe that was a bad thing. Stuff like Vado, Gauntlet, UO cage tanking were all still very deadly jobs for tanks. If you look at the gauntlet for a second I think it shows well my comments about how having aggro in smaller instances should be rewarded with little damage to the group (which is not the case for stuff like am/filth well with random aggro [well] and the punts/bleeds [am]). In the guantlet your job was to direct the damage to you because you could take it, and take it well. Sure you were a lot less prone to dying there than you are when tanking shelob, but that was just catering to more of a tank's specialty, keeping the damage off your group. Yes you do not want shelob on your dps lol, but with the gauntlet you had the challenge of constant add spawns you had to get aggro of and fighting against champs to maintain said aggro as more adds kept coming in while still taking considerable damage yourself.
    Lvl 130 Guard - Olebenny || Lvl 130 Guard - Theoderad || Lvl 130 Guard - Estelrian || Lvl 130 Captain - Galtherium || Lvl 130 Runekeeper - Leegun || Lvl 130 Mini - Nathorean || Lvl 130 Champion - Cephrial
    Leader of Raiders Beneath the Shadow - Arkenstone
    What more does one need in LotRO than a lot of morale and a shield?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    First I am intentionally avoiding saying cappies need adjusting, call it naive, you are valid for sure.
    The problem with Captains is the simple fact that these changes apply to them almost as much as they apply to Guardians. Boosting BPE is a big buff to them in terms of improving uptime on their personal buffs and in regards to their defensive cooldowns (if a Captain is capped on full BPE chance fighting withdrawal becomes virtually as good as Guardians Pledge/Juggernaut). If Captains aren't addressed the gap doesn't shrink. It's not like they should purely be getting nerfs, there should definitely be an improvement on aggro and threat generation for them. They just can't have all the things they currently have, they basically exceed every other tank in every category other than threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    Bleed spreading was/can be buggy, but being added again does not mean it has to be buggy. Fresh set of eyes on it and hopefully some good testing on BR. Bugs can and always will slip through unfortunately but I don't think its good philosophy to let that hinder desire for something to be added.
    When I say "buggy" I mostly referred to bleed spreading being a thing that probably wasn't even remotely intended in the first place. DoT's aren't really debuffs and it was weird that red Guardians needed a yellow trait to function like that. I like the current (rough) setup of red Guardian, I feel that rotationally it works fine as is. The issue for me is just the fact that the damage isn't there (and that maybe there should be a cashout move for burst damage). That kind of thing requires red traits/legacy reworking, not so much yellow trait interactions being tacked on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olebenny View Post
    I think the change in how we see damage dealt gives the illusion that throne was a cake walk for tanks, their job as a pure and 100% damage soaker only was not as prevalent with how spikey damage has became and I do not believe that was a bad thing. Stuff like Vado, Gauntlet, UO cage tanking were all still very deadly jobs for tanks. If you look at the gauntlet for a second I think it shows well my comments about how having aggro in smaller instances should be rewarded with little damage to the group (which is not the case for stuff like am/filth well with random aggro [well] and the punts/bleeds [am]). In the guantlet your job was to direct the damage to you because you could take it, and take it well.
    Well, no. Throne was a cakewalk for tanks, we had Beornings main tank the whole thing. At the time Beornings were literally weaker than every other tank in every single way, they were taking almost double the damage of equally geared Guardians (and only had about 10% more morale). UO cage tanking was probably the most dangerous part of it and well, we didn't use Guardians for that as it was just straight up easier to keep a Captain alive there. Pretty much the only place that truly warranted a Guardian over anything else was solo reinforcements tanking in Mumaks because nobody else had that level of self SI. All in all the primary reason Captains weren't taken as main tanks in Throne is aggro, defensively they matched or exceeded Guardians on bosses.

    At the end of the day I don't want the defining reason for taking a Guardian over a Captain being "Well, we'd prefer a Captain but they can't hold aggro." Every tank should be roughly equally capable of the same level of defence and aggro management, these are the core aspects of the tank role. What they bring outside of the tank role can vary (buffs/debuffs/healing/dps, still needs to be balanced against other tanks offerings) but what they bring to the role itself must not be variable.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  5. #5
    @Olebenny

    Perfect summary of the actual spot the guardian is in at them moment and how we got there. 100% agree with all your points, as they are on point

    Let´s hope the devs are going to do something with it, in the near future *fingers crossed*

    PS: At least our 3 "Main-Guards" (who played Loremaster, YellowCappy and Hunter/Guardian in the Progress) got their "Original Challenger of Amdan Dammul" on
    their guardians, thanks to our kinmates <3, I guess Remmo t5 won´t be happening any time soon

    Cheers Ferrai

  6. #6
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    If only we could get a competetive red line so we can fill in for something if our tanking is trash. Bleeds being spreadable by radiate would be such a beautiful thing to see again cause atm red guards got insanely horrible AoE dps. Ofcourse their ST dps is also an abomination atm, AoE is even more behind by easily 2-4x the value. Tho buff radiate again cause max 4 targets is such a joke both in yellow and in red if this spread change would happen.

    Now being able to dps shelob t5 on a red guard would be absolutely perfect, it is still a way to just ignore the issues with the game that do need fixing. Tanking balance and the way content slaps all tanks except for cappies is just horrible, it needs massive fixing.

  7. #7
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    Who wants to bet Brawler is going to have a tank line :thinking:

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Who wants to bet Brawler is going to have a tank line :thinking:
    I'm very sure they will have and it will be a million times better than chank, warden, beorn and possibly guard aswell. (SoD + LS 2.0 incoming)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    I'm very sure they will have and it will be a million times better than chank, warden, beorn and possibly guard aswell. (SoD + LS 2.0 incoming)
    Really? Because I'm not certain they'll escape the alpha state Beornings are still in.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Really? Because I'm not certain they'll escape the alpha state Beornings are still in.
    Yesss, dark days are coming boi o.o

  11. #11
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    I edited in some more specific red line changes and more blue suggestions after talking to another guardian friends.

    Thats all!
    Lvl 130 Guard - Olebenny || Lvl 130 Guard - Theoderad || Lvl 130 Guard - Estelrian || Lvl 130 Captain - Galtherium || Lvl 130 Runekeeper - Leegun || Lvl 130 Mini - Nathorean || Lvl 130 Champion - Cephrial
    Leader of Raiders Beneath the Shadow - Arkenstone
    What more does one need in LotRO than a lot of morale and a shield?

 

 

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