@Vastin - PvMP Gear

[Riddim The Legend]

Thank you very much for all the feedback folks! A lot of this looks very helpful.

I'm going to be out most of next week for thanksgiving vacation, meaning I'm not going to be able to act on it immediately, so go ahead and play through with the current layout get a better sense of what's working and what isn't, and I'll look at where things stand when I get back.

In particular when I return I'll be looking at this keep flipping stuff, any combat usable backdoors that might have been missed in my prior pass, and hopefully some more 'gentle' refinements to specific skills rather than sweeping balance adjustments.

Larger scale map design alterations aren't on the table at the moment alas, but I'll put some of them in my notes for future activities if I can get some time for that.

Next year is looking to be very busy for me with some large scale projects, but what I am hoping to do - now that the creeps have been mostly normalized and I have more balancing tools at my disposal for them - is to be able to dedicate at least a few hours a week, or a day or two a month to patching and tweaking PvMP on a regular basis.

- Vastin

Hi Vastin,

Creeps are in a much better position and can no longer be abused due to the previous lack of balance they had to deal with for years. However, the fact stands, that the majority of freeps simply cannot and will never be invited to raids for gear, since it can no longer be purchased with gold from those more fortunate or willing to be in kinships that raid. Currently, to be geared, one must treat this game as if it was a full time job and your kin mates were your co-workers. This means, that without a dedicated PvP gear the camps, that are currently taking place at GV on all servers and are slowly dying out, will continue, until the end of all.

I am sure you have already seen posts from both sides, asking for a dedicated PvP gear for freeps. The task should not be as difficult as creating brand new gear, since selecting a few sets that already exist in game, ranging from level 1 to level 130 and scaling them up, if necessary, would most definitely do the trick. Many opinions on how this new PvP gear should look like when it comes to stats, but if no essences were required and this new gear had no special bonuses, apart from pure stats, it might be easier to balance or scale it in future updates.
A small selection of offensive, defensive and healing sets for Light, Medium and Heavy classes respectively, would allow players to have a choice, depending on their play style.

As stated previously, there are many opinions on how the sets should look like, but here is my humble opinion on roughly how the new gear could look like and it goes without saying, that mitigations should be part of the stats.

Kind regards,
Riddim

[Nindrillion]

Hi Vastin,

Creeps are in a much better position and can no longer be abused due to the previous lack of balance they had to deal with for years. However, the fact stands, that the majority of freeps simply cannot and will never be invited to raids for gear, since it can no longer be purchased with gold from those more fortunate or willing to be in kinships that raid. Currently, to be geared, one must treat this game as if it was a full time job and your kin mates were your co-workers. This means, that without a dedicated PvP gear the camps, that are currently taking place at GV on all servers and are slowly dying out, will continue, until the end of all.

I am sure you have already seen posts from both sides, asking for a dedicated PvP gear for freeps. The task should not be as difficult as creating brand new gear, since selecting a few sets that already exist in game, ranging from level 1 to level 130 and scaling them up, if necessary, would most definitely do the trick. Many opinions on how this new PvP gear should look like when it comes to stats, but if no essences were required and this new gear had no special bonuses, apart from pure stats, it might be easier to balance or scale it in future updates.
A small selection of offensive, defensive and healing sets for Light, Medium and Heavy classes respectively, would allow players to have a choice, depending on their play style.

As stated previously, there are many opinions on how the sets should look like, but here is my humble opinion on roughly how the new gear could look like and it goes without saying, that mitigations should be part of the stats.

Kind regards,
Riddim

Yes! Freeps need PVP gear that scales well with the the creeps. The PVP gear must only be usable in the moors though, and is disabled outside, and Raid only gear must be disabled in the moors to create incentive to get the PVP armor. PVP armor also needs to be kind of on the more easily obtainable side.

Also it wouldn't hurt for a new Creep class since it's been asked since 2010. (Freeps have gotten 3 (RK, Warden, Beorning) and supposedly a 4th new class (Brawler) on the way). An Angmarin/ Cargul would be very cool.

[ithinkiamserious]

Riddim is right, pvp gear is needed.

If it's scaled from old pvp gear, great. If it's scaled from other gear sets, great. If it's a copy of t5 gear, great. Just give freeps pvp gear. And please, please consider giving pvp jewelry as well. But just give freeps pvp gear asap.

Please give freeps pvp gear.
Please give freeps pvp gear.
Please give freeps pvp gear.

The PVP gear must only be usable in the moors though, and is disabled outside, and Raid only gear must be disabled in the moors to create incentive to get the PVP armor.

I don't understand why anyone cares about a pvp set being usable only in the moors or raid gear being disabled in the moors. I also don't understand why people want gearing to be more difficult and the job of SSG more difficult. We have been begging for PvP gear since it went out and we can't even get it, yet there are people in every pvp gear thread wanting to attach strings to it.

[Riddim The Legend]

I don't understand why anyone cares about a pvp set being usable only in the moors or raid gear being disabled in the moors. I also don't understand why people want gearing to be more difficult and the job of SSG more difficult. We have been begging for PvP gear since it went out and we can't even get it, yet there are people in every pvp gear thread wanting to attach strings to it.

Allowing PvE gear to be used in PvP would potentially make it much more difficult for devs to balance PvP in general, since a bigger variety of sets would have to be reviewed and adjusted in some way. For example, you might remember a set that used to reset CD of Oathies for Captains, but eventually got level locked and was very popular before the lock.

Currently, the majority of people who play the game play it for PvE and wouldn't PvP even when fully geared, so there shouldn't be an issue if gear locks were introduced, but it would benefit PvP and its balance.
Some things should still be acquired through PvE, like LIs, trait points, virtues and so on, possibly jewellery. This way, people will remain active in PvE and PvP, but those who want to PvP more, will be more motivated to PvE.

[ithinkiamserious]

Allowing PvE gear to be used in PvP would potentially make it much more difficult for devs to balance PvP in general, since a bigger variety of sets would have to be reviewed and adjusted in some way. For example, you might remember a set that used to reset CD of Oathies for Captains, but eventually got level locked and was very popular before the lock.

Currently, the majority of people who play the game play it for PvE and wouldn't PvP even when fully geared, so there shouldn't be an issue if gear locks were introduced, but it would benefit PvP and its balance.
Some things should still be acquired through PvE, like LIs, trait points, virtues and so on, possibly jewellery. This way, people will remain active in PvE and PvP, but those who want to PvP more, will be more motivated to PvE.

The problem is they haven't taken the time to make any meaningful updates to the barters at GV in years, so why would people suggest an attachment to gear that is already years overdue?

Making PvE gear disabled in the moors and moors gear disabled in PvE land doesn't sound like an easy take for SSG, since that is certainly less difficult than giving us gear. And since, as it stands right now, pve gear isn't getting much done vs creeps anyway, why worry about that?

[sapienze]

The problem is they haven't taken the time to make any meaningful updates to the barters at GV in years, so why would people suggest an attachment to gear that is already years overdue?

This above isn't a good position to fall back on. Saying it shouldn't happen because its been years?

Also, let's clear this up now. Creating PvP gear for the Moors and Moors only isn't an attachment. It is a separation. That's the opposite of attachment.

Making PvE gear disabled in the moors and moors gear disabled in PvE land doesn't sound like an easy take for SSG, since that is certainly less difficult than giving us gear. And since, as it stands right now, pve gear isn't getting much done vs creeps anyway, why worry about that?

It has already been done in the past. If it was so hard, then it could not have been done before. Why the caveat about separation? It is about balance and eliminating outliers and other features used to throw balance askew.

For those who do not know, forgot, or never paid attention, there is a message the first time you take a Freep to the Moors, It basically says some items will become unequipped when you enter the Ettenmoors.

It really breaks down to a reductionist view. Eliminate the problems contributing to balance issues from one level increase to the next. Go to the Moors to fight anytime you want and not be held back by PvE land.


PvP Build- Armour and Jewelry = Gear

For the record: It has always been my position that PvP gear includes full jewelry set's for each class. It makes no sense to walk the mile of creating PvP Armour to have the balance thrown off by players bringing PvE Jewelry into the Moors. Again a separation, not an attachment.


The gearing solution could be as easy as a hidden storage that activates the moment you enter the Moors. Once you have chosen your new PvP gear and slotted it, it then becomes a bound selection for every future entry to the Moors. Say you want to change a piece or a whole set. Choose the new PvP gear while in the Moors and it automatically overwrites the old PvP gear with the new choice. When you leave the Moors your previously slotted PvE gear reinserts itself.

Free PvP gear. Not gear to grind for while PvPing. Choose the gear. Slot it and get into action. Freepside has already a crazy amount of grind time for PvE activities. Too much actually and almost no one will deny this. Freepside players have already contributed to the game by remaining VIP and enduring all the PvE grinds. The Moors should be a place to get away from such attachments. The Moors should be a place to relieve yourself of all that obligatory nonsense and have fun.

[ithinkiamserious]

You didn't make a strong case for disabling pve gear in moors and vice versa. In the first place, right now the balance is supposedly tuned based on PvE gear. So why would SSG have to disable the gear they've already based balance on? Secondly, pvp gear was usable in the past outside of the moors and it was very helpful since it means freeps can wear their gear to grind virtues, trait tree points, run dailies, etc. without having requiring an extra set of gear, which would increases the grind, not decrease it.

It's not objectively true that gear should be separated. People can make an argument for or against it and it's still just an opinion. I've seen no good reason that gear should be disabled for going into or out of the moors, and I haven't seen anybody make the case that current t5 gear should be disabled since it's supposedly the only way freeps can do anything against creeps at the moment.

I don't know anything about programming, so I don't know if it's more difficult for them to make the gear disabled or not. I've never played during a time when the PvP set was disabled, but maybe it was. If so, fair enough. But if it does require any sort of programming greater than simply scaling gear that's already at GV or just copying and pasting gear that you can barter from Estolad Lan or Three Peaks and making it available for coms, then it really does sound like people are trying to create an extra headache and one that's currently not going to solve anything but, for example, create extra grinding for people that already have t5 gear.

[sapienze]

You didn't make a strong case for disabling pve gear in moors and vice versa. In the first place, right now the balance is supposedly tuned based on PvE gear. So why would SSG have to disable the gear they've already based balance on? Secondly, pvp gear was usable in the past outside of the moors and it was very helpful since it means freeps can wear their gear to grind virtues, trait tree points, run dailies, etc. without having requiring an extra set of gear, which would increases the grind, not decrease it.

It's not objectively true that gear should be separated. People can make an argument for or against it and it's still just an opinion. I've seen no good reason that gear should be disabled for going into or out of the moors, and I haven't seen anybody make the case that current t5 gear should be disabled since it's supposedly the only way freeps can do anything against creeps at the moment.

I don't know anything about programming, so I don't know if it's more difficult for them to make the gear disabled or not. I've never played during a time when the PvP set was disabled, but maybe it was. If so, fair enough. But if it does require any sort of programming greater than simply scaling gear that's already at GV or just copying and pasting gear that you can barter from Estolad Lan or Three Peaks and making it available for coms, then it really does sound like people are trying to create an extra headache and one that's currently not going to solve anything but, for example, create extra grinding for people that already have t5 gear.

Well, actually I don't have to make the case. It's been made long ago and over the years it becomes more evident the case has merit overreaching any opposition to the argument. I read for many years why gear from PvE land shouldn't be separated from PvP, and found not one reason expressed which contributed to long term balance for PvP. Not one.

Anyone can take their Freeps and virtually run around near naked in PvE land up through all the levels and advance Virtues, Trait Tree points. All the while picking up gear adequate to continue said advancement. So no PvP gear isn't required for anything but PvP.

Any suggestion, requests about PvP gear for the Moors and Moors only, has always been created for futures changes. Not as you seems to think the current moment. That makes any reason you presented about current gear irrelevant.

You missed the part where I said Free PvP gear unhindered by any grind. Keeping things the same as you seem to want hasn't worked in 14 years. All its provided is swings in balance and large lengths of time where action is absent while players to grind gear.

[ithinkiamserious]

Well, actually I don't have to make the case. It's been made long ago and over the years it becomes more evident the case has merit overreaching any opposition to the argument. I read for many years why gear from PvE land shouldn't be separated from PvP, and found not one reason expressed which contributed to long term balance for PvP. Not one.

Anyone can take their Freeps and virtually run around near naked in PvE land up through all the levels and advance Virtues, Trait Tree points. All the while picking up gear adequate to continue said advancement. So no PvP gear isn't required for anything but PvP.

Any suggestion, requests about PvP gear for the Moors and Moors only, has always been created for futures changes. Not as you seems to think the current moment. That makes any reason you presented about current gear irrelevant.

You missed the part where I said Free PvP gear unhindered by any grind. Keeping things the same as you seem to want hasn't worked in 14 years. All its provided is swings in balance and large lengths of time where action is absent while players to grind gear.

You don't have to do anything. But since your advocating gear being disabled you are part of the crowd that prefers lotro be more grindy since you're advocating for two sets of gear.

The majority of freeps stats are derived from gear. So unless you're proposing that freeps just be handed a set of gear upon entering the moors, or that they must acquire a set of gear through coms, or a total revamp of how freep stats work for the game or for moors only, then making only pvp gear sets usable in the moors is not going to help anything, but would very likely hurt pvp, especially for recruiting new players. A greenie freep or a freep without gear would be easier to kill than an npc.

I'm not talking about doing deeds in the shire and bree for working on virtues, legendaries, etc.. I"m talking about people running the end game weekly content for embers, tokens, virtue xp, etc than you can do without a great deal of time commitment and still improve your character. You can't do all that without gear. And pvp gear set bonus, if they have them, are unlikely to be of much use in pve apart from what they give in stats. What pvp set bonuses were ever that important to pve instances? None that I can think of. So why bother making sure that gear can't be used in pve content?

From what I understand, the work done in the recent creep update was for scaling, so we have every reason to believe that future pve sets will be more consistent with creep stats. There are already two pve raids out at this level cap and the evidence suggests that even with max gear, freeps are still losing out to creeps, or at least it's close for similarly skilled players. Since this is the end of the 130 pve cycle, it will be even worse with a raise in level cap if the same ratio of creeps stats to freep stats is kept when players come out with the old pve set or new purple gear, as history tells us will happen.

Either way, you just sound like some nagging school marm that wants to ban stuff you haven't even seen yet.

[Ethrildar]

Don't forget jewellery please. If anything they're more important than the gear. Purely in terms of stats (most set bonuses are negligible anyway in the Moors), the end-game easily acquired armour is the same or better than high-tier Remm stuff. Jewels on the other hand require T3-5 AD, AM, and T5 Remm and make up the biggest gear disparity among Freeps.

Just clone the current "BiS" gear pool and give us essences (Moors only) that we can buy with silver to slot into copy & pasted vendors of the current gear sets at ilvl 132, including all jewels etc.

How this will all work for players like myself that have four builds on my Captain, I've no idea, I already struggle for bag space, let alone having one or even two, perhaps three more builds in my bags....

[Riddim The Legend]

Don't forget jewellery please. If anything they're more important than the gear. Purely in terms of stats (most set bonuses are negligible anyway in the Moors), the end-game easily acquired armour is the same or better than high-tier Remm stuff. Jewels on the other hand require T3-5 AD, AM, and T5 Remm and make up the biggest gear disparity among Freeps.

Just clone the current "BiS" gear pool and give us essences (Moors only) that we can buy with silver to slot into copy & pasted vendors of the current gear sets at ilvl 132, including all jewels etc.

How this will all work for players like myself that have four builds on my Captain, I've no idea, I already struggle for bag space, let alone having one or even two, perhaps three more builds in my bags....

I'm just waiting for Vastin to react. Anything will do, especially if it's a confirmation that PvP gear is on the way.

[Dranak123]

I'm just waiting for Vastin to react. Anything will do, especially if it's a confirmation that PvP gear is on the way.

Hi folks and welcome to 2021.Lets hope its better in the real world and the Lotro world. I wish you all the best .
Having said that I am not particularly optimistic in regards to forthcoming developments for the Moors. My biggest suspicion is that when logon numbers and subscriber numbers take a dip there could be a little Update waiting in the wings to offer some 'exciting' new content (humour) with the carrot of whole new collections of jewellery at Teal or Gold (swoon) to be obtained via barter that will raise the more casual/non-raidcommited player closer to the BiS bar. Doing so will cheer up many PvMP players who will avail themselves of such gear ASAP and trot out to the moors with a big smile on their face.
Sadly , in the eyes of our stressed and overworked SSG staff , this will look like a Fix . What it will be in reality is the act of 'kicking the can down the road', or 'hitting the ball into the long grass' , or 'paying the minimum and waiting till the next bill' (please insert your own humourous culturally appropriate witticism). The problem will remain unfixed and unaddressed facilitating another round of balance shifting from one side to the other and then back again...and so forth.
You appear to have fixed one side of the scales SSG. All you need to do is take a serious look at balancing the other side.
A lot of commentators on the issue believe that dedicated PvMP gear is the way forward and also relatively easy to achieve...….so to plaguarise somebody else...
'never before have so many gamers wanted so little from so few'

[Vastin]

So, we do have another designer moving over soon to lend a hand for a while with some PvMP balance updates, and that may allow us to finally dust off the old PvMP gear sets and bring them up to date.

I can't yet say exactly what form that gear will take, as I won't be directly handling that.

-Vastin

[DrRabbitfoot]

So, we do have another designer moving over soon to lend a hand for a while with some PvMP balance updates, and that may allow us to finally dust off the old PvMP gear sets and bring them up to date.

I can't yet say exactly what form that gear will take, as I won't be directly handling that.

-Vastin

Make it simple and sweet and it will be easy to manage now and in the future (just my 2c of advice).

[Riddim The Legend]

So, we do have another designer moving over soon to lend a hand for a while with some PvMP balance updates, and that may allow us to finally dust off the old PvMP gear sets and bring them up to date.

I can't yet say exactly what form that gear will take, as I won't be directly handling that.

-Vastin

Hi Vastin,

Thank you for the update. May I ask, do you have at least a very rough ETA for when we might see these new updates or one in particular, gear? Would it be another month or even more?

Thank you,
Riddim

[Xenephobe375]

So, we do have another designer moving over soon to lend a hand for a while with some PvMP balance updates, and that may allow us to finally dust off the old PvMP gear sets and bring them up to date.

I can't yet say exactly what form that gear will take, as I won't be directly handling that.

-Vastin

I'm okay with pvp gear BUT, I think a couple of things need to be avoided. First, I'm worried about the pvp gear forcing everyone into using the same builds, not everyone enjoys playing their class the same way, and there needs to be some variety. Second, if this new gear is going to be slotted, then we will need a better way to obtain t6 essences. You can't require freeps to AGAIN grind pve content to fill our essence slots, especially with how low the drops are.

[SingularityNow]

So, we do have another designer moving over soon to lend a hand for a while with some PvMP balance updates, and that may allow us to finally dust off the old PvMP gear sets and bring them up to date.

I can't yet say exactly what form that gear will take, as I won't be directly handling that.

-Vastin

"Just keep em talking about PVP gear and then they won't address the ridiculous over tuning that we just went through." ~Creeps, 2021.

Way to fall for it.

[Riddim The Legend]

"Just keep em talking about PVP gear and then they won't address the ridiculous over tuning that we just went through." ~Creeps, 2021.

Way to fall for it.

Creeps are balanced well against T5 geared freeps, not T1-T2 potatoes that struggle to take OPs

[0987654321]

"Just keep em talking about PVP gear and then they won't address the ridiculous over tuning that we just went through." ~Creeps, 2021.

Way to fall for it.

Pretty sure cord already said thers a creep nerf coming, although i could be misremembering. His post also says "PvMP balance updates" and then mentions the gear...so maybe try reading properly

So, we do have another designer moving over soon to lend a hand for a while with some PvMP balance updates, and that may allow us to finally dust off the old PvMP gear sets and bring them up to date.

I can't yet say exactly what form that gear will take, as I won't be directly handling that.

-Vastin

Thank you so much for this. I do hope you go back to the days of 75/85 in terms of the usefulness of the set bonuses rather than the essence slot sets that had mediocre bordering worthless set bonuses. That being said, im just happy to hear that the PVP work is being continued

Creeps are balanced well against T5 geared freeps, not T1-T2 potatoes that struggle to take OPs

There are a few things that are overtuned, defilers being the biggest problem by far. but overall i do agree with them being well balanced against t5

[Riddim The Legend]

There are a few things that are overtuned, defilers being the biggest problem by far. but overall i do agree with them being well balanced against t5

For any soloer, a defiler basically means death, but in bigger fights, where there are many targets that can be focused, its much better. It's what I've noticed at least and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[SingularityNow]

Creeps are balanced well against T5 geared freeps, not T1-T2 potatoes that struggle to take OPs

No they not. Look, I'm a defiler. I actually want fair fights. If there two defilers in a 6 man, or 3 defilers in a 12 man, and we're tool tip healing, as in target forward healing the freep raid assist target and we have them tool tipped to pick them up quickly as they try and switch? We're unbeatable. C'mon. Anyone who says different is looking for SSG to win the game for them.

[mithelenthor]

Guys don't get excited... they certainly are going forward in implementing the same old mistakes and are not listening to any players suggestions regarding anything no matter how they sugar coat it for you.
Expect the worst and when it is a hundred times worse than that.... that will be somewhere near what you will get.

Believe me... ask questions and have an opinion on the matter and you will be ostracised for it. And there is no recourse - so be careful.

[Spilo]

So, we do have another designer moving over soon to lend a hand for a while with some PvMP balance updates, and that may allow us to finally dust off the old PvMP gear sets and bring them up to date.

I can't yet say exactly what form that gear will take, as I won't be directly handling that.

-Vastin

This is fantastic news.

I echo what Milt says- the simpler the better, and also what Equi said in regards to jewelry- the simpler the PvP gear, and the more holes it covers (jewelry, armor, even weapons maybe), the better. I would gladly pay a sub and more (as would many others) if they could skip the grind and just play the only part of the game they truly enjoy.

Not only is this good news for balance, but more importantly good news for Freep population. Thank you, Vastin!

[Kate00]

There are a few things that are overtuned, defilers being the biggest problem by far.

Defilers arent over tuned. They just arent dying to 1 dps like they were before. The freeps that are dying to defilers now were still dying to defilers before the update.

[Riddim The Legend]

No they not. Look, I'm a defiler. I actually want fair fights. If there two defilers in a 6 man, or 3 defilers in a 12 man, and we're tool tip healing, as in target forward healing the freep raid assist target and we have them tool tipped to pick them up quickly as they try and switch? We're unbeatable. C'mon. Anyone who says different is looking for SSG to win the game for them.

Look, you have generalised the entire faction only because of a single class, a comment you should expect is exactly like my previous one. Now, there are many different variations and not every fight might have 3 defilers or 3 healers on any side, for that matter, so maybe it would be better for us to agree, that overall, the majority of creeps are not "unbeatable".
I am yet to see any constructive suggestions from yourself or others when it comes to defiler heals. By saying "we've unbeatable" you are basically asking for another nerf to the ground and your comment, thought a single person's opinion, will be taken into account over the majority that if agreed, would suggest a minimal adjustment.

If anything, no further creep adjustments should be made before freeps receive their gear.