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  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    unless i missed it, nothing was said about it being moors only or disabling of current pve gear in pvmp.

    so we have an incoming creep nerf 1st, to set a baseline vs "average" freeps. i can only assume that would be the very easy to get teal ember barter gear, both armour and jewelry sets with t5 crafted essences.

    since this ember gear is still better than what i've seen many freeps pvp'ing in, i wouldn't expect pvp gear to be very usefull at all outside the moors. last go around they gave pvp sets trash stats. so i doubt it'll be very good. what would they give it? pvp mitigations?

    so the easy solution would be to disable all gear in the moors and force pvp only gear for pvp, i dont think thats realistic so get ready, anything could happen.
    This is a tough one for me. Personally I'd be down for disabling PvE gear and mandate PvP and nothing else, but I can see how people who "put in the work" get rewarded to a small (5-10% tops) extent.

    However that does bring in balancing issues, as the top tier of gear generally grows as time goes on (t3, then t4, then t5, then a new set of jewelry, etc.), which means that 5-10% is gonna grow to 15-20% and so on, which means balancing PvP gear/Creeps is gonna be difficult. Is PvP gear going to be updated every 6 months? It may be problematic in the long run to allow PvE stuff.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 14 Warg, Arkenstone~

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riddim The Legend View Post
    Yes and yes, but while someone like me and you, who more or less play for PvP, wouldn't mind, how will it affect PvE Beornings, since one of the main reasons they are invited is because they can heal both groups in raids? There should be no such changes made, unless the devs can come up with some sort of way or a passive buff, that would disable out-of-group AoE healing while in PvP only.
    There is no need to have another dead class like Guardian, because Captains can do the same and more.
    That's true, an oversight of my statement really as I was thinking purely in terms of PvP.

    Realistically it's not worth discussing, core changes to the way Beornings work in any fashion will just not happen so despite there being numerous easy fixes here, there's no point listing it.

    @Those who think all Creepside heals should be non-grouped, I stand by my original statement that the unlocking of all Creepside AoE heals to being out of group does only two things:

    - Annoys competent healers, lowing their effectiveness in that their groups are not prioritised for healing over some rando who happens to be nearby.
    - Encourages zerging, healer stacking in general, and ezmode gameplay with little to no skill or thought involved.
    #15skills

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    You are sseeerrriioouuussllyy reaching with this one...

    1. I think it only affects people hit by the heals themselves, AKA people already in the Minstrel's group.
    2. Last I checked (which admittedly was a long while ago) there wasn't a single competent Minstrel in the game that traited this because it was absolute trash. It was like a 0.01% heal on top of Bolster doing double 30ks. Kind of like they built the trait but forgot to assign it a healing value or something.

    As with anything in this game, what is broken to uselessness one update can become the next pivotal skill or trait in another update, but I highly doubt it with this one.

    Out of group healing, and yes, even Beornings are counted in this, does nothing but encourage zerg mentality and help trash Creeps & Freeps, and should be removed entirely everywhere it is found.
    I wasn't reaching for anything. It was a counter point to the post I quoted. By your own admission you do not know the answer.

    I'll test the skill myself in the coming days. I'll need to set aside my disdain for the current trash that is this game and log on

    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Amen
    2nd

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    That's true, an oversight of my statement really as I was thinking purely in terms of PvP.

    Realistically it's not worth discussing, core changes to the way Beornings work in any fashion will just not happen so despite there being numerous easy fixes here, there's no point listing it.

    @Those who think all Creepside heals should be non-grouped, I stand by my original statement that the unlocking of all Creepside AoE heals to being out of group does only two things:

    - Annoys competent healers, lowing their effectiveness in that their groups are not prioritised for healing over some rando who happens to be nearby.
    - Encourages zerging, healer stacking in general, and ezmode gameplay with little to no skill or thought involved.
    Allies healing should be removed entirely from the Moors.
    "That what is explicitly two, can at the same time be implicitly one."

    Alan Watts

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    Allies healing should be removed entirely from the Moors.
    Of all my complaints over the years, this is the biggest. Healtagging is the most poisonous garbage they ever brought in. I estimate it took me an extra 2 years to reach r15 because of it. For them to double down on it now is pretty awful.
    Team Milt.

  5. #80
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    Post

    Ah, my apologies regarding the aoe healing issues - I didn't realize that healtagging had quite such an obnoxious effect on advancement for creeps, and the posts regarding aoe heal stacking in larger groups are also well founded.

    I'll look at whether it makes sense to change it so that tagging doesn't split Renown/Infamy rewards in the future, and for the time being I'll move most creep AoE heals back to group-only.

    I'm also looking at specifically reducing the base mitigation ratings for creeps, and nudge down the base healing a bit.

    -Vastin

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Ah, my apologies regarding the aoe healing issues - I didn't realize that healtagging had quite such an obnoxious effect on advancement for creeps, and the posts regarding aoe heal stacking in larger groups are also well founded.

    I'll look at whether it makes sense to change it so that tagging doesn't split Renown/Infamy rewards in the future, and for the time being I'll move most creep AoE heals back to group-only.

    I'm also looking at specifically reducing the base mitigation ratings for creeps, and nudge down the base healing a bit.

    -Vastin
    Hello,

    Everything above sounds great. Especially removing heal tagging which would decrease zerg mentality and reward somewhat. Bringing the aoe healing back in group is good as well and defiantly needed.

    One thing to mention though is that warleader healing should not be reduced. The majority of the tooltips are already lower than they were before the creep buff. Crack the whip, which is their single target heal, has a 92k heal tooltip. (lol)

    My opinion would be to increase warleader heals by 50% and multiply the crack the whip heal by 3 because it is so low. In counter balance. The majority of the heals in the moors come from Defilers. Defiler should have a significant heal nerf due to the ease at which they can put out the most st heals in the game. Maybe a 25% decrease?

    In short for healing. Aoe healing gone Good. Heal tagging gone Amazing! Buff warleader heals plz. Swing the nerf hammer on defiler heals.

    Thank you vastin and mysterious other dev!
    Adapting R12 Reaver, Warleader r9 Warleader on Ark Everlastingyawn r9 Defiler Landy Backpedal r9 Warg Brandy
    Arantoth R10 Champion on Ark Elezmera-3 R11 Ministrel on Ark
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Ah, my apologies regarding the aoe healing issues - I didn't realize that healtagging had quite such an obnoxious effect on advancement for creeps, and the posts regarding aoe heal stacking in larger groups are also well founded.

    I'll look at whether it makes sense to change it so that tagging doesn't split Renown/Infamy rewards in the future, and for the time being I'll move most creep AoE heals back to group-only.

    I'm also looking at specifically reducing the base mitigation ratings for creeps, and nudge down the base healing a bit.

    -Vastin
    great changes, im tired of getting 10 points a kill because of 30 other people tagging the same enemy! i need 1.2 million to my next rank you know 120,000 kills for a rank is gonna take me years upon yearssss

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by ConsistantRager View Post
    Hello,

    Everything above sounds great. Especially removing heal tagging which would decrease zerg mentality and reward somewhat. Bringing the aoe healing back in group is good as well and defiantly needed.

    One thing to mention though is that warleader healing should not be reduced. The majority of the tooltips are already lower than they were before the creep buff. Crack the whip, which is their single target heal, has a 92k heal tooltip. (lol)

    My opinion would be to increase warleader heals by 50% and multiply the crack the whip heal by 3 because it is so low. In counter balance. The majority of the heals in the moors come from Defilers. Defiler should have a significant heal nerf due to the ease at which they can put out the most st heals in the game. Maybe a 25% decrease?

    In short for healing. Aoe healing gone Good. Heal tagging gone Amazing! Buff warleader heals plz. Swing the nerf hammer on defiler heals.

    Thank you vastin and mysterious other dev!
    '

    Absolutely agree that WL heals should not be nerfed at all. Probably buffed like this poster suggested if anything, especially if mits are being reduced some.

    Thank you for the changes so far, and going forward. Im starting to get hopeful about PVP in this game again.
    Lugbur, R11 Reaver ./. Guthfred, R9 Captain ./. Guthblade, R9 Chamption ./. Muzluck, R9 Warg + Various other toons of different rank and class.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Ah, my apologies regarding the aoe healing issues - I didn't realize that healtagging had quite such an obnoxious effect on advancement for creeps, and the posts regarding aoe heal stacking in larger groups are also well founded.

    I'll look at whether it makes sense to change it so that tagging doesn't split Renown/Infamy rewards in the future, and for the time being I'll move most creep AoE heals back to group-only.

    I'm also looking at specifically reducing the base mitigation ratings for creeps, and nudge down the base healing a bit.

    -Vastin
    It is possible as a healer to heal tag a player one time in a safe area (say grams or gv) and from that point on, either till death or a relog half the points this player makes will go to the tagger.
    That's the main thing everyone has issues with. I do hope that this change doesn't mean that both the player and the tagger get all the points, as the tagger should get nothing at all.
    There's already been cases on Arkenstone where there were defilers with scripts tabbing through other creeps in grams and tagging everything, and I've seen some of them hit rank 9 with this method.

    Another thing I would like to bring to attention is the base 10% point gains for any kill regardless of group size. I'm of the opinion that this is one of the main driving factors behind the zerg mentality.
    There's no difference in point gains per kill while being with a 12 man and being with 30+. The 10% baseline results in a massive inflation of point gains and promotes huddling together and shuffling between two safe spots.
    As for a large portion of the playerbase the only thing that matters is getting a rank and preferably fast and easy. Why risk running around in smaller groups which require more effort when you can sit half afk in a zerg and make way more points per hour that way.
    Overlord Urundus
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  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Urundus View Post
    It is possible as a healer to heal tag a player one time in a safe area (say grams or gv) and from that point on, either till death or a relog half the points this player makes will go to the tagger.
    That's the main thing everyone has issues with. I do hope that this change doesn't mean that both the player and the tagger get all the points, as the tagger should get nothing at all.
    There's already been cases on Arkenstone where there were defilers with scripts tabbing through other creeps in grams and tagging everything, and I've seen some of them hit rank 9 with this method.

    Another thing I would like to bring to attention is the base 10% point gains for any kill regardless of group size. I'm of the opinion that this is one of the main driving factors behind the zerg mentality.
    There's no difference in point gains per kill while being with a 12 man and being with 30+. The 10% baseline results in a massive inflation of point gains and promotes huddling together and shuffling between two safe spots.
    As for a large portion of the playerbase the only thing that matters is getting a rank and preferably fast and easy. Why risk running around in smaller groups which require more effort when you can sit half afk in a zerg and make way more points per hour that way.
    Yes, the length of time for which a single heal stays active as a “heal tag” is rather insane. The heal over time aspect is one thing, and if the tag remained during the duration of the heal only that would be understandable, however often that heal tag remains indefinitely until defeat and sometimes persists through death. I’m not sure if you could adjust the duration of the out of group tag, but even that would be helpful. Back in the day they considered standing on the steps and just tagging everyone who ran past as rank farming, now that goes unchecked.

    I’m glad you brought this up because the math of point inflation is rather insane for this. A group of 3 kills 3 of the opposing faction and receive a total of 450 points split 3 ways, 150 each, 50 per kill per person. Next a group of 30 kill the same 3 that were worth 450 points, that group of 30 receives 1350 total points and 15 per kill per person. Now multiply that inflation across hundreds of kills that group of 30 performed the entire night. What’s the incentive to go out in small groups of 3-6-12 when you can receive massive point inflation for only contributing 3% effort to a kill in a massive zerg.

    The rules influence the culture, and the culture can only influence the rules so much. We can try to push anti-zerg all day but what it really boils down to is the lowest common denominator: points. If they are rewarded massively for serving, they will zerg relentlessly. If they are only given their fair share for zerging (and this is not a punishment this is just being equal) then the incentive goes away. If the maximum point division increases from 10 to 20 or more, they lose that motivation to kill every solo, to bring out 30-40+ groups because their point rewards will finally reflect their effort input rather than some massively inflated value. That same group of 30 would still get 450 points, for killing 3 (same as the other group) but instead they’d only get 5 points per person per kill, instead of the 300% inflation we see now.
    ~ Third Marshal Anaxander -R12 Warden, Chieftain Karukh -R12 Warg ~ Formerly of Elendilmir

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    Yes, the length of time for which a single heal stays active as a “heal tag” is rather insane.
    From what I can tell, there are some fairly serious issues in the Moors with how the 'in combat' state is managed.

    With NPC mobs its relatively straightforwards, you tag mob(s), and you remain in combat until they are all dead, or until they 'leash' and run off.

    With PvMP it's entirely possible for two players to engage each other, and then run to opposite corners of the map still while fighting others or maintaining effects on distant allies/enemies for substantial periods of time. What this does to the 'in combat' and related combat XP tagging systems is clearly messy, and I suspect that 'networks' of in-combat tag lists are being inadvertently maintained for considerable periods of time as a result.

    I don't think there is a short term fix for that, but I can ask our engineers to review the system and see if its possible to clean it up.

    -Vastin

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by ConsistantRager View Post
    Hello,

    Everything above sounds great. Especially removing heal tagging which would decrease zerg mentality and reward somewhat. Bringing the aoe healing back in group is good as well and defiantly needed.

    One thing to mention though is that warleader healing should not be reduced. The majority of the tooltips are already lower than they were before the creep buff. Crack the whip, which is their single target heal, has a 92k heal tooltip. (lol)

    My opinion would be to increase warleader heals by 50% and multiply the crack the whip heal by 3 because it is so low. In counter balance. The majority of the heals in the moors come from Defilers. Defiler should have a significant heal nerf due to the ease at which they can put out the most st heals in the game. Maybe a 25% decrease?

    In short for healing. Aoe healing gone Good. Heal tagging gone Amazing! Buff warleader heals plz. Swing the nerf hammer on defiler heals.

    Thank you vastin and mysterious other dev!
    I completely agree with this. WL heals are weak compared to the morale pool. I would also add, Harsh language (+20% Outgoing healing) and Commanders stance(+15% outgoing healing?) do not seem to equate to a significant increase in healing. If I slot harsh language I get about a 7% increase on my tooltip which is lame for a traited skill for a healer.
    Landy Pawpatrol Stalker 7, Horrorbuisness BA 9
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  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Ah, my apologies regarding the aoe healing issues - I didn't realize that healtagging had quite such an obnoxious effect on advancement for creeps, and the posts regarding aoe heal stacking in larger groups are also well founded.

    I'll look at whether it makes sense to change it so that tagging doesn't split Renown/Infamy rewards in the future, and for the time being I'll move most creep AoE heals back to group-only.

    I'm also looking at specifically reducing the base mitigation ratings for creeps, and nudge down the base healing a bit.

    -Vastin
    Out of group heal fixing would be great- it affects WL heals, the Uruk heal, Defiler heal, etc.

    I really think base mits are fine, it's the corruptions (the BPE/resist in particular) that are too strong. The reasoning for Corruptions to be weaker (and base stats stronger) is the same line of reasoning that encourages PvP gear: the less discrepancy with gearing, the more consistent PvP experience.


    WL heals are probably fine, Defiler probably a little too strong.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 14 Warg, Arkenstone~

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilawolf View Post
    I completely agree with this. WL heals are weak compared to the morale pool. I would also add, Harsh language (+20% Outgoing healing) and Commanders stance(+15% outgoing healing?) do not seem to equate to a significant increase in healing. If I slot harsh language I get about a 7% increase on my tooltip which is lame for a traited skill for a healer.
    That's how outgoing healing works in lotro currently. when it says +10% outgoing healing, it isnt 10% of the tool tip, it is treated similar to mastery so it goes up a marginal amount compared to the exact %. Outgoing healing cap is around 60-70%. I hope that helps explain it some.
    Adapting R12 Reaver, Warleader r9 Warleader on Ark Everlastingyawn r9 Defiler Landy Backpedal r9 Warg Brandy
    Arantoth R10 Champion on Ark Elezmera-3 R11 Ministrel on Ark
    Officer of Prime Evil

  15. #90
    Regarding healtagging, I liked how another game, ESO has done it. There you must be involved in a fight to get "commendations". You can healtag someone, but if you are not actually fighting, you will not get any points.

    If this was also the case in LotRO, maybe some of the issues with PvMP would be resolved.

  16. #91
    @Vastin
    Are broken things (in pvp at least) like "Muster Courage" 1.7 fear resistance multiplier and freep cleanse skills going to be addressed in the near future?

    I just want to remind everyone that one skill - Muster Courage - almost completely negates huge number of crucial creep skills:
    - defiler aoe fear
    - warg aoe fear
    - spider single target fear
    - all WL shouts
    - warg silences (single target and aoe)
    - defiler -25% out. healing debuff
    The most important abilities that creeps lose because of Muster Courage are defiler fear and WL shouts (defiler aoe fear is one of the most useful CC creeps have and if freeps have a cappy in their group this skill becomes useless; WL shouts are extremely important for burst healing because they give no-induction buff for healing skills and also because freeps can't interrupt WL heals if he has this buff. If WL can’t use shouts his group effectiveness drops by like 50%, if not more, and that is how strong Muster Courage is).

    Another problem is cleanse skills which make a lot of creep debuffs and dots useless in group pvp because of how fast they can be cleansed.

    There are many ways how these broken things can be fixed. My suggestion is to nerf these skills in pvp zone to some extent.
    Arkenstone - Oiz

  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by CHEBURASHKA View Post
    @Vastin
    Are broken things (in pvp at least) like "Muster Courage" 1.7 fear resistance multiplier and freep cleanse skills going to be addressed in the near future?

    I just want to remind everyone that one skill - Muster Courage - almost completely negates huge number of crucial creep skills:
    - defiler aoe fear
    - warg aoe fear
    - spider single target fear
    - all WL shouts
    - warg silences (single target and aoe)
    - defiler -25% out. healing debuff
    The most important abilities that creeps lose because of Muster Courage are defiler fear and WL shouts (defiler aoe fear is one of the most useful CC creeps have and if freeps have a cappy in their group this skill becomes useless; WL shouts are extremely important for burst healing because they give no-induction buff for healing skills and also because freeps can't interrupt WL heals if he has this buff. If WL can’t use shouts his group effectiveness drops by like 50%, if not more, and that is how strong Muster Courage is).

    Another problem is cleanse skills which make a lot of creep debuffs and dots useless in group pvp because of how fast they can be cleansed.

    There are many ways how these broken things can be fixed. My suggestion is to nerf these skills in pvp zone to some extent.
    Cleanses aren't equal across the board between freeps and nerfing them wouldn't be a good idea imo because it could create other imbalances that you would not have wished for. As for muster courage, I agree that it is a little overpowered but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't affect the gameplay that much. As of right now creeps have so much resistance rating that they also resist a lot of the CC and other freep abilities like bleeds and debuffs, so that would also needs to be adressed if we want to look at how resistance affects certain skills more than others.

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Laerthan1997 View Post
    Cleanses aren't equal across the board between freeps and nerfing them wouldn't be a good idea imo because it could create other imbalances that you would not have wished for. As for muster courage, I agree that it is a little overpowered but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't affect the gameplay that much. As of right now creeps have so much resistance rating that they also resist a lot of the CC and other freep abilities like bleeds and debuffs, so that would also needs to be adressed if we want to look at how resistance affects certain skills more than others.
    Resist being at its current state for Creeps isn't good, I agree, but it's something that Creeps have had to deal with for, what, a couple years? I'm not sure when Muster Courage got to the state that it is now, but that combined with group wide and specifically potent cures (I believe Minstrel, Captain, RK, Burg/LM to a lesser extent?), effects and debuffs are a complete joke in any sort of balanced group vs. group. I remember when Reaver Disarm and Warg Silence used to be actual complaints because they were difficult to deal with- no longer. I'd gladly see an increase in the Cooldown of several Creep debuffs if those Debuffs even mattered anymore.

    Silences/Fears have like a 10% or less application rate, and other debuffs get removed almost instantly if the target isn't mobbed with effects. It's not good game design.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 14 Warg, Arkenstone~

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Laerthan1997 View Post
    Cleanses aren't equal across the board between freeps and nerfing them wouldn't be a good idea imo because it could create other imbalances that you would not have wished for. As for muster courage, I agree that it is a little overpowered but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't affect the gameplay that much. As of right now creeps have so much resistance rating that they also resist a lot of the CC and other freep abilities like bleeds and debuffs, so that would also needs to be adressed if we want to look at how resistance affects certain skills more than others.
    1. I agree with you that both creeps and freeps should have the same resistance ratings for the sake of balance so creep resist should be reduced to some degree.

    2. I don’t understand what kind of imbalances could nerfing cleanses create. This very idea that nerfing cleanses will lead to imbalances and that we shouldn’t change anything implies that there’s no problem with cleanse at the first place which is absolutely not true.

    How is it fair that in group PvP freeps can cure all crucial debuffs and bleeds and creeps cannot?
    How many cleanses do freeps have in group?
    - (mini) Story of Courage – cures 1 effect (2 in yellow line) from each member of the group (10 sec CD)
    - (cappy) Muster Courage – cures 1 effect from each member of the group (10 sec CD)
    - (RK) Scribe a New Ending – cures 4 effects from 1 target (8 sec CD)
    - (hunter) Purge Poison – cures 2 effects from 1 target (5 sec CD)
    - (LM) Knowledge of Cures – cures 3 effects from 1 target (15 sec CD)
    - (bear) Cleanse – cures 3 effects from 1 target (20 sec CD)
    etc.
    How many cleanses do creeps have? 1 pot with 30 sec CD.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that creeps should have the same broken cleanse skills like freeps do. I’m suggesting a big nerf for freep cleanse (in pvp zones) and possibly giving creeps cures of the same value to balance it out (though, I doubt that we’ll see any new skills on creepside).

    3. Muster Courage fear resistance multiplier is not a little overpowered it is a big deal in group pvp.

    I already mentioned this but i guess i have to repeat, Muster Courage prevents (to a great extent) multiple offensive and defensive creep strategies because of how high fear resistance is:
    - warg can't silence healers during creep burst/yellow rks for defense
    - warg can't aoe disarm for defense (this skill has fear resistance type even though the disarm is a wound)
    - defiler, spider and warg can't fear
    - WL can't use shouts for no-induction heals and because of that if WL gets focused and freeps are coordinating interrupt skills then WL won't get a single induction off (which means he can't heal himself, and in 6v6, for example, it means that when freeps are killing WL creeps only have 1 healer - defiler). No-induction heals increase your burst healing capacity and prevent freeps from interrupting your heals in general.



    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Resist being at its current state for Creeps isn't good, I agree, but it's something that Creeps have had to deal with for, what, a couple years? I'm not sure when Muster Courage got to the state that it is now, but that combined with group wide and specifically potent cures (I believe Minstrel, Captain, RK, Burg/LM to a lesser extent?), effects and debuffs are a complete joke in any sort of balanced group vs. group. I remember when Reaver Disarm and Warg Silence used to be actual complaints because they were difficult to deal with- no longer. I'd gladly see an increase in the Cooldown of several Creep debuffs if those Debuffs even mattered anymore.

    Silences/Fears have like a 10% or less application rate, and other debuffs get removed almost instantly if the target isn't mobbed with effects. It's not good game design.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by CHEBURASHKA; Jan 15 2021 at 11:21 AM.
    Arkenstone - Oiz

  20. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by CHEBURASHKA View Post
    1. I agree with you that both creeps and freeps should have the same resistance ratings for the sake of balance so creep resist should be reduced to some degree.

    2. I don’t understand what kind of imbalances could nerfing cleanses create. This very idea that nerfing cleanses will lead to imbalances and that we shouldn’t change anything implies that there’s no problem with cleanse at the first place which is absolutely not true.

    How is it fair that in group PvP freeps can cure all crucial debuffs and bleeds and creeps cannot?
    How many cleanses do freeps have in group?
    - (mini) Story of Courage – cures 1 effect (2 in yellow line) from each member of the group (10 sec CD)
    - (cappy) Muster Courage – cures 1 effect from each member of the group (10 sec CD)
    - (RK) Scribe a New Ending – cures 3 effects from 1 target (8 sec CD)
    - (hunter) Purge Poison – cures 2 effects from 1 target (5 sec CD)
    - (LM) Knowledge of Cures – cures 3 effects from 1 target (15 sec CD)
    - (bear) Cleanse – cures 3 effects from 1 target (20 sec CD)
    etc.
    How many cleanses do creeps have? 1 pot with 30 sec CD.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that creeps should have the same broken cleanse skills like freeps do. I’m suggesting a big nerf for freep cleanse (in pvp zones) and possibly giving creeps cures of the same value to balance it out (though, I doubt that we’ll see any new skills on creepside).

    3. Muster Courage fear resistance multiplier is not a little overpowered it is a big deal in group pvp.

    I already mentioned this but i guess i have to repeat, Muster Courage prevents (to a great extent) multiple offensive and defensive creep strategies because of how high fear resistance is:
    - warg can't silence healers during creep burst/yellow rks for defense
    - warg can't aoe disarm for defense (this skill has fear resistance type even though the disarm is a wound)
    - defiler, spider and warg can't fear
    - WL can't use shouts for no-induction heals and because of that if WL gets focused and freeps are coordinating interrupt skills then WL won't get a single induction off (which means he can't heal himself, and in 6v6, for example, it means that when freeps are killing WL creeps only have 1 healer - defiler). No-induction heals increase your burst healing capacity and prevent freeps from interrupting your heals in general.





    Agreed.
    If they have kept cleanses the same in pvmp since basically the game was created, I don't think they would suddenly change it, and if they did, it would probably create other problems that you would need to consider. For example, most of spider dps comes from dots. They also have a really powerful ability at the moment that drains power. I have no clue exactly how that ability works, but if you don't cleanse it immediately, I've found myself running out of power really quickly in 1vs1 vs a spider on my hunter (with reasonable amout of fate, 6k). If you nerf the hunter cleanse for example (which, while it has only a 5 seconds cooldown, has an horrible animation that roots you in place foor at least about 1.5 second and can only get animation cut by blinside which has an 18s cooldown), in a hunter vs spider fight, the hunter would found itself without power in very very short order even if you use a power pot and everything at your disposal. Granted this is only a very specific situation but in many other cases nerfing freep cleanses would mean a spider would become virtually unbeatable in a 1vs1 situation, which is kinda weird for a dps class. If their is any inacurracies in what I just wrote I would like to be enlightened because I am always eager to learn.

  21. #96
    It appears there is a number of skills that would have to be changed to unpottable and the other way around. Ummm, this actually reminds me of a so called warden nerf, when they made the dots pottable, clearly without knowing that warden is a dot based class..

    I'll try to come up with suggestions later today.

  22. #97
    Proposed changes to skills for Monster Play classes
    I'd like to hear other people's opinions as these are just quick ideas and it is very possible, that some or most of these changes would have a negative impact on the gameplay.
    I'm sure of one thing and it is that having a good discussion about the proposed changes, we might come up with something that makes sense and wouldn't ruin PvMP experience.

    Defiler:
    Fungal Spores
    The initial heal has been removed, but the skill no longer requires induction.
    Incoming Healing Modifier has been reduced by 5%.

    Fell Restoration
    The cooldown has been reduced from 30 seconds to 10 seconds.

    Blessing of Darkness
    Defiler will no longer take damage while channelling, but the HoT from this skill has been removed.

    Curse of the Coward's Soul
    This skill can no longer be resisted, but will now have a 50% break chance on any harm/damage after 2 seconds.

    Tenderize
    The application chance has been increased from 25% to 35%.

    Reaver:
    Charge
    The duration has been reduced from 8 seconds to 6 seconds.

    Against the Odds
    When used in combat, this skill will also allow you to use Charge in combat, but for half of its duration (3 seconds).

    Weaver:
    Shadow's Bite
    The skill can no longer be resisted, but will now have a 50% break chance on any harm/damage after 2 seconds.
    Power drain has been removed.

    Tainted Kiss
    The DoT will now tick every 3 seconds for 15 seconds, instead of 30 seconds, but can no longer be removed.

    Piercing Attack
    The DoT will now tick every 3 seconds for 15 seconds, instead of 9 seconds.

    Trapdoor Sanctuary
    Now provides a short 2 seconds immunity to stuns and allows you to summon a Hatchling while the immunity is active, even if in combat.

    Warleader:
    Field Promotion
    Damage Reduction has been reduced from 90% to 30%, but will be applied on up to 6 group members.
    The duration of this skill has been increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds.

    Black Speech
    The DoT can no longer be removed.
    Last edited by Riddim The Legend; Jan 15 2021 at 05:10 AM.

  23. #98
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,487
    Quote Originally Posted by CHEBURASHKA View Post
    How is it fair that in group PvP freeps can cure all crucial debuffs and bleeds and creeps cannot?
    How many cleanses do freeps have in group?
    - (mini) Story of Courage – cures 1 effect (2 in yellow line) from each member of the group (10 sec CD)
    - (cappy) Muster Courage – cures 1 effect from each member of the group (10 sec CD)
    - (RK) Scribe a New Ending – cures 3 effects from 1 target (8 sec CD)
    - (hunter) Purge Poison – cures 2 effects from 1 target (5 sec CD)
    - (LM) Knowledge of Cures – cures 3 effects from 1 target (15 sec CD)
    - (bear) Cleanse – cures 3 effects from 1 target (20 sec CD)
    etc.

    - WL can't use shouts for no-induction heals and because of that if WL gets focused and freeps are coordinating interrupt skills then WL won't get a single induction off (which means he can't heal
    I think it's been made clear on multiple occasions that specifically nerfing freep skills either FOR or just while IN the moors is not something they are even able to do (outside of blanket nerfs such as the healing/damage reduction on the Bombadil server) / going to do or something that is even on the table. Cleanses are a necessity in PvE content, especially in 3/6mans when you might not always have someone with an AoE cleanse. There is an imbalance because creeps don't have PvE raids to be balanced around, which undoubtedly gives freeps a much larger skill variety thus disparity with Creeps, and that isn't something that is likely to change. However, that being said an AoE Cleanse on WL or Filer wouldn't go amiss.

    I will, however, admit that the +70% muster courage fear resist is a bit out of sorts, however, this doesn't impact WL shouts in the way you are suggesting (as far as I know), the damage of the shouts themselves are not fear damage, which means muster courage cannot resist those attacks, so still scoring a crit with a shout will give you the no-induction buff, the only thing it defends against is the DoT's / Debuffs that linger from the shouts.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Jan 15 2021 at 07:47 AM.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    There is an imbalance because creeps don't have PvE raids to be balanced around, which undoubtedly gives freeps a much larger skill variety thus disparity with Creeps, and that isn't something that is likely to change. However, that being said an AoE Cleanse on WL or Filer wouldn't go amiss.
    Resistance Boost Corruptions
    +X resistance rating
    3-set bonus: +X resistance rating
    6-set bonus: On every Harmful skill, Targeted at you, 10% chance to Contextual skill that cleanses all harmful effects on self. Does not include Combat states. Expires if out of combat for 9 seconds

    Since creep resistances are already high, maybe the 6-set bonus could be moved to let's say, Tactical Mitigation 3-set bonus. Its cooldown could be reduced to maybe 30 seconds and it would remove 2-3 negative effects?

    This would mean, that each class could have an option to have the removal, but then the 3-set bonuses would have to be reworked on other corruptions at some point too.

    EDIT: If I may add... not every corruption must have bonuses, just like Finesse, that is an addition to DPS, Resistance and Critical Defence corruptions could be treated the same because they are now part of other corruptions, so the bonuses are no longer needed and could be removed/moved to bonuses on other corruptions.
    Last edited by Riddim The Legend; Jan 15 2021 at 08:27 AM.

  25. #100
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    2 Long Street, Corstead, Bree-land Homesteads, Crickhollow, Sweden
    Posts
    3,342
    So maye we see less "freep burgz op cowards" in chat in the near future...
    The Elruthrim Brethren of Crickhollow
    Malancil CHN, Historian Calchiar CPT, Explorer Sturmdrang WDN, Woodsman Anancite GRD, Armourer Tarostel HNT, Armsman Angredeth HNT, Tinker Dromarong GRD, Dwarf

 

 
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