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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlin View Post
    Boss special attacks cant be BPEd.
    The above kinda highlights peoples misunderstanding of BPE. BPE is not a system meant to save you from special attacks of any kind. You wouldn't want it to do that.


    BPE is inherently a system of RNG and RNG systems only become fair in large samples. Say a boss has an attack that does 75% of your morale in damage they use every 30s, if BPE functioned on this attack you could reasonably see a run where this attack never lands but equally see a run where this attack always hits. That's a massive variation in damage between runs which really isn't great, you don't want the potential for RNG to screw you over like that.

    The primary purpose of BPE is to keep consistent damage low. You minimise constant damage so your healthpool is free to take the bigger hits. Now in old LOTRO content most of this consistent damage came from enemy auto-attacks, current day LOTRO is a bit different. Auto-attack damage from enemies does not appear to be scaled properly so constant incoming damage is fairly low, in an attempt to address this SSG appears to have taken to incorporating large non-dispel able bleeds into content. Bleeds don't go through BPE and this is the primary reason why BPE sucks right now.

    There are certainly other factors in play (Warden is pretty much the only tank able to get close to rating caps for avoidance) but this current emphasis on guaranteed bleeds being used to pressure tanks between boss "special attacks" is the real reason why BPE is suffering.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owner2 View Post
    Wrong. Warden is still desirable mostly because they're the best aoe dps in game.



    Which just means Wardens don't have any advantage, no that they're useless. They're just gonna get hit as much as every other tank.

    Where warden tanks truly excels are instances with lots of mobs. You can pull everything at once and keep every mob in place thanks to Warden's great aggro control.
    It's also faster than with any other tank, because you can debuff their mits, self heal (in 6-mans on T1-2 to the point you don't even need a healer in the group), and still do some solid aoe damage.



    Also wrong. Warden is single-handedly the best solo class. It's a fellowship on it's own. You can just pull a whole area/instance and with said 3-4 keys kill them all. For anything less than that you can use just one key like every other class, Javelins exist.

    The only thing you can't do with a Warden is Valar it and expect to be able to play it. It takes weeks to remember even the combinations of all gambits, not even talking about their proper use, rotations and positions.

    E.g. when you're tanking a bunch of trash mobs in an instance, you're taking lots of damage and you don't have a healer you're most likely gonna try to build one of the healing gambits (Restoration, Conviction, or if you're smart Resolution), which is wrong.
    What you should do instead is double-tap Desolation. It'll fear every mob around you, give them a miss chance, give you time to build Resolution, deal a ton of damage and put a dot on them dealing even more damage-over-time, so you can focus on self-buffs, healing, more damage or debuffing.
    If you're expecting a bit longer fight with them you might want to hit them with Exultation of Battle for a more permanent healing solution.

    Persevere healing chain is mostly only worth using if you're facing a single enemy (boss) and/or get incoming healing reduction.

    Here's a nice list of gambit effects if you want to do some reading:
    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/War...uick_Reference



    And cheers to that. You really do need to know the class to be able to do any sort of tanking, yet alone in end game. You can practice on T1 3/6-man though.
    Also, running in and hitting everything with Defiant Challenge doesn't count as tanking.

    You quoted three things and said they are "wrong"...I just want to clarify your first quote you put is mine but I never said Warden DPS isn't desirable, Warden DPS is arguably the highest in the game. The second and third quotes you say are wrong are incorrectly attributed to me, someone else said those.
    Erendil 50 Hunter Rank 7, Mavellen 45 Warden; Officers of Disciples
    Ragaroth Warleader Rank 7, Marhawk Stalker Rank 5; Members of Cuddle Squad
    Other Characters: Arthilius - Captain, Arthilias - Guardian,
    Claireth - Runekeeper, Harbuckle - Burglar, Lothlirien - Hunter

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    The primary purpose of BPE is to keep consistent damage low. You minimise constant damage so your healthpool is free to take the bigger hits.
    Wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Now in old LOTRO content most of this consistent damage came from enemy auto-attacks, current day LOTRO is a bit different. Auto-attack damage from enemies does not appear to be scaled properly so constant incoming damage is fairly low, in an attempt to address this SSG appears to have taken to incorporating large non-dispel able bleeds into content.
    "Old" LOTRO? Anvil is "Old" Lotro now is it? Oh, and let's not forget - YOUR personal opinion, NOT FACT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    In an attempt to address this SSG appears to have taken to incorporating large non-dispel able bleeds into content. Bleeds don't go through BPE and this is the primary reason why BPE sucks right now.

    But this current emphasis on guaranteed bleeds being used to pressure tanks between boss "special attacks" is the real reason why BPE is suffering.
    I wonder if there's some kind of a forum award for how much rubbish a single person can type in a one post :thinking:

    Anvil Boss 2 disagrees with your entire post by the way, as does almost every other raid and nonraid content pre-Abyss.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Dec 01 2020 at 10:23 AM.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Owner2 View Post
    Wrong. Warden is still desirable mostly because they're the best aoe dps in game.
    We speak about blue warden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owner2 View Post
    Which just means Wardens don't have any advantage, no that they're useless. They're just gonna get hit as much as every other tank.
    Wrong. Warden has less mitigation that heavy tanks, which means he take extra dmg. Also other tanks have panic buttons, which warden doesnt. ALSO Never Surender doesnt save you from one shot. And one shotet you are on almost every boss special attack. Ofc as i said good healer /comunication or experience needed/ can shield you right before boss special attack, but this doesnt mean you gona survive it. Why to make it harder for entire grp and give healers cancer when you can just pick safe bet and pick captain, bear or even blue guardian?



    Quote Originally Posted by Owner2 View Post
    Also wrong. Warden is single-handedly the best solo class. It's a fellowship on it's own. You can just pull a whole area/instance and with said 3-4 keys kill them all. For anything less than that you can use just one key like every other class, Javelins exist.
    This was the case before, not anymore, not even during 120 lvl cap. All 3 legit tanks - captain bear and guard have more self sustain in ST fights. Wrd ""power"" shine in aoe, kite, bights, and even then bear and guardian can do if not better to atleast his level of tanking. I agree wrd can find /if pug rl give him a chanse/ spot as off tank, but not as main one. (raids)



    Quote Originally Posted by Owner2 View Post
    Here's a nice list of gambit effects if you want to do some reading:
    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/War...uick_Reference
    I read enough and i experienced even more.
    My knowleadge dont come from watching guides or hearing from someones friend friend, I main warden with bear more than 5y. And i pushed hard. I also play almost all other classes /outside mini and endgame chanp at current lvl cap/ so trust me i know.
    Ofc this is my opinion / also the players i play with, and if you can prove me wrong, linking me ONE video of warden tanking end game content/ raids outside tourist mode t1, il be glad to shake that person hand.
    Have fun gaming and care yourself.



    Quote Originally Posted by Owner2 View Post
    And cheers to that. You really do need to know the class to be able to do any sort of tanking, yet alone in end game. You can practice on T1 3/6-man though.
    Also, running in and hitting everything with Defiant Challenge doesn't count as tanking.
    If thats about my warden skills, they are polished as far as they can be. Thats why i corner it, because before even if ppl tell me that isnt my foult, i blamed yourself. Telling that i can learn more and do better. I got to the point where i cant learn more. I know everything about my class, which doesnt mean i dont do mistakes ofc.
    Now i can only blame the class when i fail. And sadly im right to do so. Waiting for incoming BPE changes Vastin mentioned. With hope. Even if that prove wrong, over the years. To have hope i mean

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Wrong.
    See, that's not really how any of this works. If you'd like to discuss the merits of a system where damage can swing wildly based purely off of RNG then go right ahead and do so.

    I've no idea how Anvil boss 2 is supposed to disprove any of what I've said. It's old content where BPE keeps consistent damage fairly low thus allowing healers to keep the tank topped off enough for the bleed (special ability) to be a non-issue. If anything it does highlight why you wouldn't want a heavy RNG system like BPE applying to special abilities; tanks in there will have stretches where they take little to no damage followed by big drops in health entirely dependent on how many attacks go through their avoidance. That variance can be nasty on hits that do 50k, variance on 400k+ damage special abilities would suck.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    I've no idea how Anvil boss 2 is supposed to disprove any of what I've said. It's old content where BPE keeps consistent damage fairly low thus allowing healers to keep the tank topped off enough for the bleed (special ability) to be a non-issue
    Again just proving how much you don't know. Considering there is no bleed in Anvil Boss 2.

    And you really need to learn to stop writing with such authority in an attempt to pass off your OPINIONS as facts - and I will continue to call you out every time you do so.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Again just proving how much you don't know. Considering there is no bleed in Anvil Boss 2.
    Uhm....Ingor inflicts a bleed where you must be healed to full to be cleansed.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaboch View Post
    Uhm....Ingor inflicts a bleed where you must be healed to full to be cleansed.
    I will be honest, I ran this raid over 200 times, on every class, even main tanked it, never once did I notice a bleed, I never once heard any other main tank mention a bleed. All I can say to this is that it clearly wasn't a "big" issue, especially not if the healers are doing their job, keeping you at full HP anyway.

    So to argue that the bleed was the main damage in the fight, I disagree.

    All I remember that as a Guardian, you simply chained all of your cooldowns (including asking for SoD from the cappy, getting SoD from the red cappy pre-fight, and in some cases sacrifice), until Ingor was dead, and if he wasn't dead by the time your debuff was around 7-8+ you had to start kiting.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    So to argue that the bleed was the main damage in the fight, I disagree.
    Me too.


    Hang on, can't see anyone saying it was the main damage in the fight.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Me too.

    Hang on, can't see anyone saying it was the main damage in the fight.
    So therefore to suggest that BPE was relevant only to keep you alive so as to be able to take the bleed is false, because the bleed was irrelevant, the abilities used by 2 of the other dwarves were far more concerning/deadly than said bleed.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    So therefore to suggest that BPE was relevant only to keep you alive so as to be able to take the bleed is false, because the bleed was irrelevant, the abilities used by 2 of the other dwarves were far more concerning/deadly than said bleed.
    I mean the bleed was an example of a special ability, it was by no means all-inclusive. So yeah, BPE kept incoming damage consistently low with those special abilities typically being the things that push tanks to more dangerous levels of health.

    If you just want to vent in my general direction then stick to PM's or something. This is just weird.
    Last edited by Joedangod; Dec 01 2020 at 04:36 PM.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Considering there is no bleed in Anvil Boss 2.
    Some dwarfs were worst than others but I expect you did always kill Ingor first? I suppose one might not notice some effects in good raiding groups, but they were there.

    Wound was doing about 290k damage every 3 seconds. The only way to remove this was to be healed to full health. Cruel Strike debuff was adding -10% incoming healing with each tier also. So there was a combo of two skills actually, and we used different tactics depending on group setup and how well we were geared. From sending one sturdy class to get the bleed instead of a tank, and using captain's Shield of the Dúnedain, to swapping aggro due to debuff, until we get to the point where one tank was able to do all on its own

 

 
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