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  1. #1
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    Tank Warden Valar - An Example of Why This Game Isn't New Player Friendly

    I played a Warden back when they were first released and got him to L50 as a tank. In fact, if you create a Warden today, the role definition SSG provides is defense. Now, I am an active player, I know Warden tanking is broken, if only by the fact that you literally see no Wardens tanking at end game anymore. Be that as it may, I decided to Valar my warden, picked up some defensive LI's, traited blue, and decided to enjoy my Warden again after 10+ years as a tank. I'm OK with this, because I knew what I was getting into.

    This got me thinking, if I was a brand new player, or even a returning player, incentivized to come play LOTRO based on the valar sale, here is the experience I would expect:

    1) Put out over $100 to buy all the expansions that get you to end game
    2) Purchase LP to buy an Aria (granted they are on sale now)
    3) Read the class description of a Warden as tank (or just remember that Wardens were created to be tanks), and role one.
    4) Spend days, literally days, trying to understand the LI system and what you need to do to get your Warden traited correctly.
    5) Spend even more time trying to understand how morale, core stats, masteries, mitigations, resistance, incoming heal, etc. all function and what you should prioritize
    6) Hopefully learn quickly that most of those stats above don't scale properly, and that all the defensive medium gear with resistance and defensive crit really aren't adding value for you.
    7) Devote countless hours to grinding scrolls, crystals, etc. to get your Warden ready for L130 tanking
    8) Realize that your Warden can't tank after frustratingly letting down several groups.


    As I continue to re-learn my Warden as a tank I am sure I will have concrete feedback on how to fix this class line, however for now I am simply posting this to highlight an example of something glaringly wrong with this game. This example is not limited to Wardens and tanking, and I don't have the best answer for how to fix it at scale, but the core problem exists and I hope SSG recognizes it.
    Erendil 50 Hunter Rank 7, Mavellen 45 Warden; Officers of Disciples
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    This got me thinking, if I was a brand new player, or even a returning player...

    I can't argue with any of the points you made. The class confusion, endless grind, and constant push to the store have become a nightmare for new and returning players that hope to excel at the higher levels.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
    Well tank classes are supposed to be able to tank but for some reason ssg has not done anything about tank balance in a very long time. All the class changes are always about the dps lines and now we have the worst tanking balance ever.

    -a support class is now by far the best and only tank in the game

    - the 2 main tank classes (guardian, warden) cannot fulfill their main role and are trash. (tho guard has no useable lines at all, their tanking is still better off than ward/chimp/arguably bear)

    - the other 2 sub tanks (champ, beorn) cannot tank either. Champ has been utterly useless for years and beorns are quite well off actually but still useless due to todays content and just the fact that they never stand a chance against captains and yellow beorns kinda make their utility useless.

    We really need to get a tank balance update after all this time, it's the worst balance the game has ever seen

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    Well tank classes are supposed to be able to tank but for some reason ssg has not done anything about tank balance in a very long time. All the class changes are always about the dps lines and now we have the worst tanking balance ever.....
    And they still don't seem to be able to balance DPS either, even after all of that effort.

  5. #5
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    If you are a brand new player incentivised by the valar sale you are going to be a big disappointment in groups. It wont teach you the techniques you need along with the sudden levelling, and you probably wont get them in the subsequent WP power level.

    "So I spent that money, got to end game level and nobody will group with me for raids. Blow this for a game of soldiers" cuts losses and leaves

    I see that as also being a risk.
    Mithithil Ithryndi

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    As I continue to re-learn my Warden as a tank
    This is admittedly one of the main issues you're going to run into with Warden. It's one of the few classes that be considered to have a high skill floor. You're absolutely going to struggle using a freshly valared Warden tank unless you've spent a few hours practicing rotations/building muscle memory on a dummy.

    Blue Warden is not Yellow Captain, you can't just hop onto it and immediately perform at 80% of the classes full potential.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mithithil View Post
    It wont teach you the techniques you need along with the sudden levelling, and you probably wont get them in the subsequent WP power level.
    Won't learn much by levelling manually either. Last time I levelled a Warden I couldn't use masteries because everything died to the first gambit I used and jumping in and out of combat like that screws everything up. Scaling in this game is a total mess. Wanna see how much damage a level 50 Wardens quick sweep hits for?



    That's more than the entire healthbar of an on-level enemy per tick...and quick sweep is technically AoE.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithithil View Post
    If you are a brand new player incentivised by the valar sale you are going to be a big disappointment in groups. It wont teach you the techniques you need along with the sudden levelling, and you probably wont get them in the subsequent WP power level.

    "So I spent that money, got to end game level and nobody will group with me for raids. Blow this for a game of soldiers" cuts losses and leaves

    I see that as also being a risk.
    I get it but same is the case with leveling on nearly all classes when you think about it. I rarely see anyone doing serious group content on lower levels. What does healer learn about healing while leveling in dps line, or tank about tanking, or support classes, while leveling in dps line? Most of learning happens when one reach end level and start grouping.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithithil View Post
    If you are a brand new player incentivised by the valar sale you are going to be a big disappointment in groups. It wont teach you the techniques you need along with the sudden levelling, and you probably wont get them in the subsequent WP power level.
    What else would teach you anything about end-game group playing, than playing end-game content in a group?

    Leveling (landscape) will teach you nothing about that, The only difference between "naturally leveled toon" and valar'd toon is, that on valar'd toon pass weeks and months of totally irrelevant content to get to the content and role you want to learn.
    Laurelin mains: Tamien (R8 Warden) - Tanie (R9 Champion) - Tamieth (Hunter) - Tamia (Minstrel) - Challenger of Gothmog
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithithil View Post
    If you are a brand new player incentivised by the valar sale you are going to be a big disappointment in groups. It wont teach you the techniques you need along with the sudden levelling, and you probably wont get them in the subsequent WP power level.

    "So I spent that money, got to end game level and nobody will group with me for raids. Blow this for a game of soldiers" cuts losses and leaves

    I see that as also being a risk.
    The game has a lot of really apt players and for them, learning a class in a couple of days is not a problem at all. Even new or returning players can fit into that category. For those that are not in that category, they either avoid Valar or they go in knowing that they are not going to be ready for end game straight off the bat, so they start off slowly in small group content and learn that way while gearing up the rest of the way that they have to go after Valaring.

    Sure, there are the one that do Valar and think they are invincible and brilliant straight away (without ding the extra work involved in gearing and fine tuning), but not all are like that, and they mostly all learn eventually. Some players never learn a class, even through normal levelling.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    As I continue to re-learn my Warden as a tank I am sure I will have concrete feedback on how to fix this class line.
    Please continue to do so, because you definitely can tank end-game content with a Warden. Even on high tiers.
    They could use a defensive panic skill like guards and caps have and maybe a little boost to single-target self-healing, but that's about it.

  11. #11
    i can't accept this as critic.

    Just an example:

    If i would search a new game (i think this would concern any new MMO) and i (for example) go to Teso. I do not have any experience in playing Teso. I also would need days (maybe weeks) to understand the game/Class mechanics or how the game works. And in case of Lotro we have a more complicated example, because not everyone can play a Warden.

    Example for GW2. you start playing the game after buying PAth of Fire and can get a class instantly on maxlevel. Now you're doing a messmer. You need weeks or a lot of Youtube Videos to play it in Raids.

    What i say here is: This is not easy in any other game you're playing or returning to.

  12. #12
    Would a brand new player spend on a Valar? Maybe...
    Would literally anyone who has played this game for over a year tell them specifically NOT to valar a Warden, especially if they've never played the class?... YES!
    I don't know about everyone else, but when I was a new player I was researching stuff ALL the time. I may have jumped into Warden class a bit blind but I was equally excited for it... Then again, valar packs weren't a thing then. Still, it isn't the game's fault if someone's skipping the entire game to be thrown into endgame while not understanding any of the mechanics... That's on them.

    I agree that the class descriptions are outdated, the developers have acknowledged this too as over time the classes and their roles have changed due to balances and adjustments to classes. Wardens are now niche DPS with some tanking capabilities early and mid game... Maybe one day they would actually address the Tanking question in a manner that would allow Wardens to tank properly again, especially at endgame.
    Changing the descriptions to fit meta doesn't fix the actual issue.
    There's so many systems to this game as it is so old and vast, does anyone seriously buy ALL the content at once? Some literally didn't have to, the entire game is there for you to naturally learn everything about it as you progress normally. It is entirely on you if you valar a character to ENDGAME, you should know what you're getting into, players are only too eager to have their hands held for them, this game always has had class balance issues... I seriously doubt that the people valaring themself to endgame are completely new to it, most of them are just valaring FOTM classes from what I've seen. And if you are new to the game and valar a character only to get overwhelmed, you're free to start a new character to figure the game out organically.
    Leader of the Mitey Worriers (Laurelin)
    The last implicit purveyors of premium meats since 26/12/17

  13. #13
    Boss special attacks cant be BPEd.
    Knowing that and choosing evassion based tank say enough.
    If there is comunication, if healer shield you at the right moment, if bear use sacrafice, if, if, if, Too many IFS.
    Warden is fun to play /become boring once you get used with gambits and masteries/ and if you dont plant to play hight tier content, go tank with it. If solo, there are way better solo classes atm. Like outside champion evey class is better than warden imo. Self heal nerfed, need to spam 3-4 keys to kill mob which other classes kill with pressing 1 button. The 2 things keep him on ""top"" are 38% ooc movements speed and muster skills. But if you play it just because of that, better go hunter.
    Also keep in mind that pugs wont let you tank, even if they tank starve and even if content they do is just story mode t1.
    Vastin mentioned smth about BPE rework, but this may/ and proly will/ take years imo. And if the end result is like ""buffs"" guardian get not long ago, then better skip wrd. Mine are cornered since end of Erebor.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post


    That's more than the entire healthbar of an on-level enemy per tick...and quick sweep is technically AoE.
    Warden scaling is absolutely scuffed during levelling and only really balances itself out at endgame, mind you, quick sweep-wall of steel bleeds are designed to be particularly hard hitting considering the time it takes to pull it off along with the RNG factor involved... Yet wardens being too powerful throughout levelling has been a problem since wardens got DPS increases and balancing, pushing them further into a DPS role. I've been levelling a new warden and most of the time I can oneshot pretty much every enemy on landscape... I really think they ought to balance scaling throughout the game and mob '''difficulty''' too. Lotro wasn't always *this* easy.
    Leader of the Mitey Worriers (Laurelin)
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owner2 View Post
    Please continue to do so, because you definitely can tank end-game content with a Warden. Even on high tiers.
    They could use a defensive panic skill like guards and caps have and maybe a little boost to single-target self-healing, but that's about it.
    Thanks! This is encouraging, but I have to say it really feels polarized. I feel like 10% of the comments I've seen between here, discord, other blogs, are in line with what you are saying. The other 90% are more like the one below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlin View Post
    Boss special attacks cant be BPEd.
    Knowing that and choosing evassion based tank say enough.
    If there is comunication, if healer shield you at the right moment, if bear use sacrafice, if, if, if, Too many IFS.
    Warden is fun to play /become boring once you get used with gambits and masteries/ and if you dont plant to play hight tier content, go tank with it. If solo, there are way better solo classes atm. Like outside champion evey class is better than warden imo. Self heal nerfed, need to spam 3-4 keys to kill mob which other classes kill with pressing 1 button. The 2 things keep him on ""top"" are 38% ooc movements speed and muster skills. But if you play it just because of that, better go hunter.
    Also keep in mind that pugs wont let you tank, even if they tank starve and even if content they do is just story mode t1.
    Vastin mentioned smth about BPE rework, but this may/ and proly will/ take years imo. And if the end result is like ""buffs"" guardian get not long ago, then better skip wrd. Mine are cornered since end of Erebor.



    Quote Originally Posted by Askelin View Post
    Would a brand new player spend on a Valar? Maybe...
    Would literally anyone who has played this game for over a year tell them specifically NOT to valar a Warden, especially if they've never played the class?... YES!
    I don't know about everyone else, but when I was a new player I was researching stuff ALL the time. I may have jumped into Warden class a bit blind but I was equally excited for it... Then again, valar packs weren't a thing then. Still, it isn't the game's fault if someone's skipping the entire game to be thrown into endgame while not understanding any of the mechanics... That's on them.
    My main from 1-130 was a hunter, I know this class extremely well, but it was most of what I knew in this game since it launched. With the MM expansion I valar'd an LM, it was very confusing at first, but after a couple days I became more comfortable with it and now I'm raiding with this char. My second valar was the warden just recently, again, the first few hours were very slow, but after a few hours of discovering which gambits do what it became a lot easier.

    I guess my point is, no class in this game should be 'unvalarable' as long as you read your skills and traits. I made a decision to roll a blue warden, I have found no guides or anyone able to help give guidance around how to trait or which gambits to use, so I spent the first evening testing things out until I got into a groove that works. I am certain once I start doing group content I'll need to adjust, but that's OK and it's what makes this game interesting.

    What I do have an issue with, and the reason I posted this thread, is the fact that even if I read through all my skills and traits and stat descriptions, what SSG provides us is often flat out wrong. As I am learning my gambits and building my tank, if I follow what I am reading in the character pane I would logically assume that resistance, evade, parry, agility, mits, morale are all equally important. I also would assume as a Warden I should use a spear since that is what SSG gave me in my valar pack, but the reality is everyone is using a sword. The game kind of sets you up to not do well and waste time. It's not a huge deal with really common class/trait mixes because the community has built a wealth of resources to learn from, but for the forgotten class/trait mixes it's not only unwelcoming (which I'm actually OK with), but the in-game information is very misleading (which I'm not OK with).
    Erendil 50 Hunter Rank 7, Mavellen 45 Warden; Officers of Disciples
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post

    I guess my point is, no class in this game should be 'unvalarable' as long as you read your skills and traits. I made a decision to roll a blue warden, I have found no guides or anyone able to help give guidance around how to trait or which gambits to use, so I spent the first evening testing things out until I got into a groove that works. I am certain once I start doing group content I'll need to adjust, but that's OK and it's what makes this game interesting.

    What I do have an issue with, and the reason I posted this thread, is the fact that even if I read through all my skills and traits and stat descriptions, what SSG provides us is often flat out wrong. As I am learning my gambits and building my tank, if I follow what I am reading in the character pane I would logically assume that resistance, evade, parry, agility, mits, morale are all equally important. I also would assume as a Warden I should use a spear since that is what SSG gave me in my valar pack, but the reality is everyone is using a sword. The game kind of sets you up to not do well and waste time. It's not a huge deal with really common class/trait mixes because the community has built a wealth of resources to learn from, but for the forgotten class/trait mixes it's not only unwelcoming (which I'm actually OK with), but the in-game information is very misleading (which I'm not OK with).
    So true. Unfortunately some of the class trait trees aren't yet viable for endgame raiding. Landscape of course is fine but I'm guessing if a person valars one of the reason is to join group content. That said SSG really needs to update their class descriptions. Stop being so focused on the dps/healer/support cliche, since classes like beornings break that norm. The description should talk about it's playstyle and the roles it can fill not it's main role being dps/support or tank.

    Yeah the reality too with the warden using a sword more than a spear is another thing. Since men and even high elves get bonus to swords, not spears. In fairness to SSG tho it was when Turbine was in-charge and I doubt they considered benefits to spear damage or even something for elves to boost rk damage or healing. End of the day they ought to ask players to make the description or at the very least ask their advice for race bonuses. But play the class however you like, i'm planning to use a spear on my warden high elf .

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    I made a decision to roll a blue warden, I have found no guides or anyone able to help give guidance around how to trait or which gambits to use, so I spent the first evening testing things out until I got into a groove that works. I am certain once I start doing group content I'll need to adjust, but that's OK and it's what makes this game interesting.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTWGderR-kU

    Its a over 4y old guide but is stil valid / outside gear and stats ofc) It shows you how warden class looks and have some good advices about gambit lines.

    I also refuse to belive you get zero advices asking about wrd stats legacies and so on. Which server are you playing ?
    ALSO, warden is the only class which should not be valared. Reading skills discription and knowing the teory helps, but on wrd it helps way less than on other classes. We dont speak about knowing your rotation here, we speak about hand memory. Even players playing the class over an year, lost their hand memory if they switch to other calss alt, even for few days, they become rusty, I know players who have main waren and another 3-4 daily grind wardens, just to not lost their hand memory when they do diaily quests with other class. With years of playing this go away, and you can rotate most gambits right after woked up, but we speak about lots of gaming, lots of experience and playing in diferent situations. Also server performance. Your game performance as warden is cuted by 10-15% just from the fact you play from EU and have 150-200ms. Lag isnt warden friendly, also the constant skill hickups, mini lag, skill lag, boss mechanic- kicks and stuns, agro stealers who runing away from you, instead runing to you and let you mele grab agro back, such players force you to f..k your rotation by wasting masteries on range hitting skills like resaunding challange, and they to go back in line you need to hard build your next gambits/

    Again, you can go red and yellow right after valar and be semi viable, but for blue warden you need lots and lots of practice, even more considering the class current state as a tank. My advice to new players is, play whatever role you want as a warden, but stay away fron END game tanking. Cheers
    Last edited by Pavlin; Nov 30 2020 at 09:43 PM.

  18. #18
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    Viva la revolución! REMOVE THE SKILL TREES AND BRING BACK THE GLORY TO THE CLASSES!
    'Ú-damdir.' Welcome to the Fourth Age of this World - The game breaking days.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Some players never learn a class, even through normal levelling.
    That's how I am with hunter. I got to 130, and struggle against landscape material that is not that hard. I'm seriously not good with that class at all.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlin View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTWGderR-kU

    Its a over 4y old guide but is stil valid / outside gear and stats ofc) It shows you how warden class looks and have some good advices about gambit lines.
    Thanks for the video link. I remember coming across this video because of the dutch accent, I did not watch the whole thing given its age, but if you say the concepts are still relevant I will study it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlin View Post
    Again, you can go red and yellow right after valar and be semi viable, but for blue warden you need lots and lots of practice, even more considering the class current state as a tank. My advice to new players is, play whatever role you want as a warden, but stay away fron END game tanking. Cheers

    Regarding your last comment, I'm not planning to listen to this
    Erendil 50 Hunter Rank 7, Mavellen 45 Warden; Officers of Disciples
    Ragaroth Warleader Rank 7, Marhawk Stalker Rank 5; Members of Cuddle Squad
    Other Characters: Arthilius - Captain, Arthilias - Guardian,
    Claireth - Runekeeper, Harbuckle - Burglar, Lothlirien - Hunter

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlin View Post
    ...you can go red and yellow right after valar and be semi viable...
    Why semi viable? DPS warden is currently welcome into any and all instances, they can deal good damage.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirhaen View Post
    Why semi viable? DPS warden is currently welcome into any and all instances, they can deal good damage.
    He means that you don't need amazing gear to contribute, I think.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirhaen View Post
    Why semi viable? DPS warden is currently welcome into any and all instances, they can deal good damage.


    By right after valar i mean as new player not used to class.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    Thanks! This is encouraging, but I have to say it really feels polarized. I feel like 10% of the comments I've seen between here, discord, other blogs, are in line with what you are saying. The other 90% are more like the one below:
    The 2 things keep him on ""top"" are 38% ooc movements speed and muster skills.
    Wrong. Warden is still desirable mostly because they're the best aoe dps in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    Boss special attacks cant be BPEd.
    Which just means Wardens don't have any advantage, no that they're useless. They're just gonna get hit as much as every other tank.

    Where warden tanks truly excels are instances with lots of mobs. You can pull everything at once and keep every mob in place thanks to Warden's great aggro control.
    It's also faster than with any other tank, because you can debuff their mits, self heal (in 6-mans on T1-2 to the point you don't even need a healer in the group), and still do some solid aoe damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    Like outside champion evey class is better than warden imo. Self heal nerfed, need to spam 3-4 keys to kill mob which other classes kill with pressing 1 button.
    Also wrong. Warden is single-handedly the best solo class. It's a fellowship on it's own. You can just pull a whole area/instance and with said 3-4 keys kill them all. For anything less than that you can use just one key like every other class, Javelins exist.

    The only thing you can't do with a Warden is Valar it and expect to be able to play it. It takes weeks to remember even the combinations of all gambits, not even talking about their proper use, rotations and positions.

    E.g. when you're tanking a bunch of trash mobs in an instance, you're taking lots of damage and you don't have a healer you're most likely gonna try to build one of the healing gambits (Restoration, Conviction, or if you're smart Resolution), which is wrong.
    What you should do instead is double-tap Desolation. It'll fear every mob around you, give them a miss chance, give you time to build Resolution, deal a ton of damage and put a dot on them dealing even more damage-over-time, so you can focus on self-buffs, healing, more damage or debuffing.
    If you're expecting a bit longer fight with them you might want to hit them with Exultation of Battle for a more permanent healing solution.

    Persevere healing chain is mostly only worth using if you're facing a single enemy (boss) and/or get incoming healing reduction.

    Here's a nice list of gambit effects if you want to do some reading:
    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/War...uick_Reference

    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlin View Post
    My advice to new players is, play whatever role you want as a warden, but stay away fron END game tanking. Cheers
    And cheers to that. You really do need to know the class to be able to do any sort of tanking, yet alone in end game. You can practice on T1 3/6-man though.
    Also, running in and hitting everything with Defiant Challenge doesn't count as tanking.
    Last edited by Owner2; Dec 01 2020 at 08:13 AM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlin View Post
    By right after valar i mean as new player not used to class.
    Ah ok, thanks for explaining

 

 
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