Pls don't make next area a "mini expansion"

[HolyDuckTape]

So because gundabad is delayed untill fall, there are plans for another area before gundabad.

There are a couple of hints that this area will be Tar Bronach north of elderslade.

Now there is literally zero need to make this a mini expansion again. Elderslade was just a quest pack. It was a huge blow to a ton of people and it got a ton of back lash and rightfully so. It would also make sense due to the usual expac > quest pack rotation.

I don't want this game to turn all future quest packs into "mini expansions" or money paid packs. It should be buy-able with LP (on release) and at the very least be given acces to VIPs.

[DavidmeetHal]

Like I said in an earlier thread, if it's an actual ZONE like Mirkwood I'm cool with dropping $20. I have no issue with that. I get it, times are hard. But a quest pack in the form of Three Peaks? I'll pass. To me, that was just way over priced for the content.


Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not disagreeing with the OP. I totally get what he means. I'm just saying that I don't mind spending $20 if it's something worth it, and as a ViP Three Peaks did not fit the bill.

[ElanorFb]

I am a very long time VIP. I was angry with the charging for Three Peaks. That said, I was prepared to pay cash for it and cancel my sub after lo these many years. However, after playing through the epic too many times I feel I got the sense of the place well enough. So I decided to keep my subscription and not bother with the Three Peaks. The company comes out ahead on the deal and I'm happy with it too.

I suspect the new area will be Very small and will be free for VIP. Then Gundabad may be more expensive than usual for various 'reasons.'

[Phantion]

Personally, I feel that the new area to the north of Elderslade needs to be included as part of War of the Three Peaks to give the current mini-expansion more for it's value. It should be an extension like Gladdenmere was to Vales of Anduin: a bit of unfinished zone content that was added later to add more to the package.

That could help them respond to the bad press and negative reactions they've received for the present update. Making it separate from Three Peaks would basically mean charging more for an even smaller area, when:

Combined, the area north and the current Elderslade would feel larger than a quest pack and more coherent with the "mini-expansion" title. It would help smooth-out many of the bad vibes the current release has received IMHO: increase the number of quests, the overall side of the landscape, and if you bought Three Peaks, congrats, you've got access = win / win for all around and would make the zone more coherent with, say, Siege of Mirkwood.

Then, I absolutely agree with the OP that they should not do another "mini-expansion" again with the same roll-out that they had done with Three Peaks. A "mini-expansion" needs to feel: larger than a quest pack, not as large as a full expansion.

Part of the problem, me thinks, is that they undercut what a full expansion was with Minas Morgul. Really: a tiny little bowl of a valley and Second Age Dor Amarth amount to 1 / 3rd of what the Mordor Expansion was; it would be like releasing The Wold and the East Wall and calling it "Riders of Rohan" without Fangorn, Norcrofts, or Sutcrofts.

So, I really, sincerely hope they'll at least use Moria, the original and first expansion, as a benchmark for what the overall size for an expansion should look like, or Rise of Isengard, if they are going to return to that kind of scale. That also means you can't release a tiny little area like Eregion or Enedwaith and call it a "mini-expansion"; have to add a bit more to it. TBH: Minas Morgul should have been a "mini-expansion" when compared to Mordor / Gorgoroth. They've lost sight of what an "expansion" is, which I don't think translates very well into how they are developing the rest of the game...

All aspects make-up new content equally: Overall size, scope, and scale of new terrain / landscape, overall size / scope of landscape quest content, end-game dailies content, the "Epic," and instances / raiding content. Don't add as much new landscape terrain? The package will feel smaller. Limit the number of new instances? The package will feel smaller. Limit the number of quests? The package will feel smaller. All of it matters.

[Fegefeuer]

Lots of truths.

Bravo, I couldn't have said it better. Cheers to you! They should listen to you and stop this non sense. Totally agree with you!

[Phantion]

Bravo, I couldn't have said it better. Cheers to you! They should listen to you and stop this non sense. Totally agree with you!

Thanks- I greatly appreciate it

I really need to sit down and watch the stream with the Q&A with Sev since there isn't a transcript anywhere I can find.

But from what I read in that other thread on that subject, it sounds like (i.e. take with a grain of salt on limited info) there was talk about them "expanding the current zone" in some way, northward, including a raid, and from what I saw in Garan's wonderful screenshot in that "Two Maps of Three Peaks" thread way back, there's definitely development north of that pass heading into the mountains out of Elderslade.

So, I am... ----- very cautiously ----- hopeful here. Guardedly so. I hope they will listen

All I can do is quote Movie-Gandalf at this point from the ROTK film: "There never was much hope... just a fool's hope."

[Froyo_K_Baggins]

How about, rather than another money grab, they take some of the money they already have and fix the bugs and the servers?

[Arnenna]

I won't be buying any more mini expansions or quest packs labelled as such. I'll be waiting and buying for points later down the line.

I gave it a whirl for Elderslade as I was not subbed, but was not impressed. And I'm not playing the "charge paying VIP's for non expac content" game with them.

Having to wait for content isn't the hindrance that they think it is. It gives a player time to catch up with alts, or explore other games with the spare time.

[SavinDwarf]

There seems to be a lot of resistance to "mini expansions". But consider this:

The bigger the expansion, the longer the gap between getting new content and the more likely that the expansion will have a larger percentage of bugs/issues. The more changes in the way things work the larger the requirement for the user population tolearn new ways of doing things.

The whole technology industry, not just games, has been slowly moving towards having smaller and constant improvements/upgrades. Rightly or wrongly, this is the industry trend. Why now? Because in an online world its possible. You even see this tend in things like Microsoft Office which seems to have about 40-50 changes per month - all of which are quite small but can still be annoying. But its better than 1,000+ changes once every two years which causes havoc in the user community and tends to be riddled with issues/bugs.

What am I saying "be careful what you wish for" - Do you want larger new releases that happen much less frequently? Or smaller releases that happen more frequently?

[Phantion]

There seems to be a lot of resistance to "mini expansions". But consider this:

The bigger the expansion, the longer the gap between getting new content and the more likely that the expansion will have a larger percentage of bugs/issues. The more changes in the way things work the larger the requirement for the user population tolearn new ways of doing things.

The whole technology industry, not just games, has been slowly moving towards having smaller and constant improvements/upgrades. Rightly or wrongly, this is the industry trend. Why now? Because in an online world its possible. You even see this tend in things like Microsoft Office which seems to have about 40-50 changes per month - all of which are quite small but can still be annoying. But its better than 1,000+ changes once every two years which causes havoc in the user community and tends to be riddled with issues/bugs.

What am I saying "be careful what you wish for" - Do you want larger new releases that happen much less frequently? Or smaller releases that happen more frequently?

The former- "larger new releases" that actually feel worth spending money on than tiny bits of nothin' that feel nickle-and-dimmed. I preferred Mordor far more than Minas Morgul for that reason as far as expansion packages go. Rohan was amazing compared to Moria if we are talking sheer scope of how they expanded the game-world, and Moria sure felt worth it's salt more than Eregion. Elderslade is like slapping a "Mini-Expansion" title on Eregion for slightly extra fluff and charging for it.

I'll never forget Rohan. Sure, we waited longer, but it was worth it; they even did a live-action preview for RoR. For all the bugs and issues with mounted combat and the instance cluster, I'll never forget my first time exploring Rohan and how sheer awesome it felt! Every update or expansion has bugs or flaws; a successful one distracts from the flaws by showcasing it's real value while they hot-fix or patch the rest.

So let me pose this question: If the game had sold the Trollshaws, Eregion, the Misties, Evendim, and Forochel, and the North Downs, all as "Mini-Expansions," would the game have really survived to move beyond Eriador (*particularly before F2P when everyone paid monthly for the game)? What if half of Dunland was released as a "Mini-Expansion" and Nan Curunir cost extra? Or if Northern Enedwaith was a "mini-expansion" and "Southern Enedwaith" was a "mini-expansion" and it all collectively cost far more than free-for-VIP, regularly released and smaller zones, and 1 big package for the full expansion?

TBH, I don't think it would have. There would have been no Moria, no Lothlorien, no Mirkwood, no Rohan, no Gondor, no Mordor, and no Rhovanion at large. When I play other games, like GW2 or SWTOR that do smaller updates more frequently, they are clever enough not to over-charge for what they offer, to make it at least - appear - reasonable (*you make more money from more players spending slightly less than less players spending slightly more), and I think that's the main point here:

We've been primed to expect a certain amount of value for a certain amount of cost for each update. Changing that into inconsistency and chaos is not good marketing at all... I truly wish they'd actually accept that some of the players, many of the players, actually pay attention from year to year, and it ain't irrational to say so...

I can tell you this: if they want to charge for a smaller update again like that, the Tiers are FREE for VIP, $30, and $50, not $20, $60, and $100. They'd get so much better press and would still make a bundle- and more players, far more, would probably buy-in.

Cheers!

[Arnenna]

There seems to be a lot of resistance to "mini expansions". But consider this:

The bigger the expansion, the longer the gap between getting new content and the more likely that the expansion will have a larger percentage of bugs/issues. The more changes in the way things work the larger the requirement for the user population tolearn new ways of doing things.

The whole technology industry, not just games, has been slowly moving towards having smaller and constant improvements/upgrades. Rightly or wrongly, this is the industry trend. Why now? Because in an online world its possible. You even see this tend in things like Microsoft Office which seems to have about 40-50 changes per month - all of which are quite small but can still be annoying. But its better than 1,000+ changes once every two years which causes havoc in the user community and tends to be riddled with issues/bugs.

What am I saying "be careful what you wish for" - Do you want larger new releases that happen much less frequently? Or smaller releases that happen more frequently?

If we have larger releases, less frequently, and they're done right, they should take longer to complete, and at the very least, feel of a quality make while we play through them. I'd much prefer longer gaps between great updates, than less time between mediocre ones.

Look at Moria, arguably one of the best releases in the game ever, and stood alone without any new company for over a year. If you build content that players can run through in less than a day, and then only give them a handful of repeatable quests to play with when they get to the end, then yes, people will get bored. That is what these shorter, more frequent updates will likely bring. Look at Elderslade.


Content drought is only a problem when content isn't built to entertain for long periods.

[Gunhard]

I think main reason for three peaks being mini xpack is a raid included. Only time when we had raid in quest pack was far anorien, but it was when another company developed the game. This was a bit strange for me coz in those times there was no new xpack for 10 lvls from 95 to 105, probably turbine didnt know what to do with the game in the future. After all 3 peaks probably will be available to buy with lps soon so if you think its not worth it you can wait and get it from lotro store with points your got from vip.

I gave it a whirl for Elderslade as I was not subbed, but was not impressed.

Getting new impressions in 13 years old game when you play it for 10 years is something not easy enough.

Look at Moria, arguably one of the best releases in the game ever, and stood alone without any new company for over a year.

Irrelevant comparision because it was 10 years ago when game was fresh enough and way more popular, so there was more income from sales. Now we have way less servers which means mostly fans left in game, this is probably main reason we have ultimate fun bundles of mini xpack for 100$. And im pretty sure ppl buy it.

I can tell you this: if they want to charge for a smaller update again like that, the Tiers are FREE for VIP, $30, and $50, not $20, $60, and $100. They'd get so much better press and would still make a bundle- and more players, far more, would probably buy-in.

You dont know the numbers so your prediction might be completely wrong. There was so many ppl who wanted to buy 3 peaks on day 1 that new store couldnt deliver all the orders. SSG knows the numbers so they will probably change their price policy if it wont work. New bundles for old content which gonna come in january are an example. Also we had all the game for free for a few months which is something really unusual for lotro. Most expensive bundles are for fans, nobody makes ppl buy them since you can get new content in the cheapest bundle.

[Arnenna]

I think main reason for three peaks being mini xpack is a raid included. Only time when we had raid in quest pack was far anorien, but it was when another company developed the game. This was a bit strange for me coz in those times there was no new xpack for 10 lvls from 95 to 105, probably turbine didnt know what to do with the game in the future. After all 3 peaks probably will be available to buy with lps soon so if you think its not worth it you can wait and get it from lotro store with points your got from vip.

That's exactly what I intend doing next time - waiting, though, it won't be bought with VIP points, because I'm not VIP.

Getting new impressions in 13 years old game when you play it for 10 years is something not easy enough.

Of course it's easy enough. If they bring in something new, then we can compare it to what isn't new, and make a choice on whether we like or dislike the change. Happens all the time in all walks of life, especially ones that involve parting with money. Many players have left this game over the years - because of changes they didn't like. Many players are now cancelling their subscriptions, because of changes they do not like.

Irrelevant comparision because it was 10 years ago when game was fresh enough and way more popular, so there was more income from sales. Now we have way less servers which means mostly fans left in game, this is probably main reason we have ultimate fun bundles of mini xpack for 100$. And im pretty sure ppl buy it.

On the contrary, making such comparisons give us a little insight into why the game isn't as popular now, as it was back then. If they were to release content like that again, I'm pretty sure popularity for the game would grow. There are a lot of fans left in the game, but a lot of them left, because - you know, things changed and they didn't like those changes.

You dont know the numbers so your prediction might be completely wrong. There was so many ppl who wanted to buy 3 peaks on day 1 that new store couldnt deliver all the orders. SSG knows the numbers so they will probably change their price policy if it wont work. New bundles for old content which gonna come in january are an example. Also we had all the game for free for a few months which is something really unusual for lotro. Most expensive bundles are for fans, nobody makes ppl buy them since you can get new content in the cheapest bundle.

You don't know the numbers either though . . . right? You too could be completely wrong.

The store didn't have problems on day one because of the number of people trying to buy, it had problems with some players, but for other reasons (country or purchase for example). Those same people were still struggling to buy, days and even a couple of weeks later. It had nothing to do with store overload.

New bundles for old content is something being put in place for new players. Older players that already own the content are not likely to buy them. Some may if they really want a newly added cosmetic, but those will likely be bundled into pricey versions of the content. Many players will resist temptation, just for the sake of a horse or set of pretty armour, as long as they already have access to the content involved. Some of us didn't get the game for free. We already bought it, long before they gave it all away. Some owned it and continued subbing through that free content period - tied into their payment with no way out of it. Those are the people that got the pointy end of the stick, and SSG were quite happy to poke them with it. I think it's being overly optimistic for anyone (SSG included) to think those players will just take it laying down lol.

[SavinDwarf]

The former- "larger new releases" that actually feel worth spending money on than tiny bits of nothin' that feel nickle-and-dimmed. I preferred Mordor far more than Minas Morgul for that reason as far as expansion packages go. ......

Phantion, my post was focused entirely on the size and frequency of releases. I'm not saying you implied it was anything else . But much of your post had to do with the cost.

The one thing I would add into the equation is that I suspect the size of the development team has got smaller and as a result a release like Rohan if attempted today might take 2-3 times as long to be completed. Of course that is just a guess on my part.

[SavinDwarf]

If we have larger releases, less frequently, and they're done right, they should take longer to complete, and at the very least, feel of a quality make while we play through them. I'd much prefer longer gaps between great updates, than less time between mediocre ones.

Look at Moria, arguably one of the best releases in the game ever, and stood alone without any new company for over a year. If you build content that players can run through in less than a day, and then only give them a handful of repeatable quests to play with when they get to the end, then yes, people will get bored. That is what these shorter, more frequent updates will likely bring. Look at Elderslade.


Content drought is only a problem when content isn't built to entertain for long periods.

I would add into the equation that the size of the development team is much smaller today and a release like Moria might take at least 2-3 times longer to development (if not even longer).

[Arnenna]

I would add into the equation that the size of the development team is much smaller today and a release like Moria might take at least 2-3 times longer to development (if not even longer).

Speaking on this line of thought, a restaurant, local to me which I eat at regularly has a smaller team now, due to layoffs because of the Covid crisis. They reopened a couple of months ago, and pushed the cost of that onto their customers, adding 15 - 20% onto everything on the menu, without thinking that customers too, may have smaller wallets at the moment. The result of course, is a very quiet restaurant, and people going elsewhere to eat, where restaurants haven't pushed all costs onto the customers and are happy so speculate to accumulate.

The size of the team will of course reflect on the length of time it takes to develop anything, however, smaller teams, cost less to run than big teams, so there is that to think about too. I'd rather wait longer and pay well for quality, than pay a lesser amount, more often for less.

[TesalionLortus]

I would add into the equation that the size of the development team is much smaller today and a release like Moria might take at least 2-3 times longer to development (if not even longer).

This *may* be true, but then I would rather get two releases of Gundabad content and x2 in size. Same like they did with Mordor which is going to get 3 (or more?).

For me it's really all about lore and as long as they're restrictive enough (or flexible enough, doing more separate releases for same content) to give justice to size in terms of lore... then I am fine, expansions, mini expansions and what not. It's true that Elderslade FEELS small but it's got two maps one with battlements and it was always going to BE a small area judged by geography. So I guess... we'll see.


LET'S SEE...

Moria was grand and covered everything we needed to see, yes, no one can ever forget Moria and its grandeur. With a sense of deep, deep and deeper, with Water-works and Nameless pits at the very bottom. Also, it got Lothlorien as a follow-up zone!

Mirkwood felt much smaller in size and pretty ridiculous with the borders all around even though it was only a SMALL PART of actual forest but... the amount of content was still pretty good so can't complain and they fixed it recently, maybe even will fix more in the future by adding Middle Mirkwood, who knows

Dunland was OK, variety of different clans with their settlements on map + Rohan backyard + Valley of Saruman, big enough! Although I guess it could still be considered a part of "golden days" in terms of development resources? No idea, who knows.

Rohan was bigger, and EVEN THEN it was split into two parts which was a wise choice, though compared to Moria it had less variety = discovering Rohan still felt wonderful but yeah, by the end you were sick of those damn thanes and reeves in their Meadhalls with their bonfires on their antler thrones... I guess storyline twists in the Western part helped a little with that

Gondor was done differently - smaller quest pack updates but all together they cover a pretty extensive terrain leading up to Anorien and enormous Minas Tirith and that's NOT even the entire Realm of Gondor so yeah, there is a grandeur to that

Now what I think *could have been* a "mini-expansion" similar to Elderslade are Pelennor Fields (with Druadan forest) and Battle of Black Gate (with Wastes), they have very similar design with the main area + battlefield. That being said, I guess being such important pivotal plot points in the story of the books... charging for them would feel bad + their battlefields, despite cool visuals, were actually less work I guess (no big landscape with quests, just instanced battlefields). So HERE is your comparison to Elderslade, folks, not Trollshaws lol

Mordor again like Rohan, in design split into different distinct releases so they can give it justice. Also, despite what people say, Morgul Vale IS a small valley + it included battlefield (kinda) version of Dol Amarth + a big city comparable with Minas Tirith and huge amount of great story content so it felt really good as expansion content nevertheless.

Now, Grey Mountains was a strange thing compared to other "quest packs" (because it also included Iron Hills, right, AND extension of Lonely Mountain) so it really felt like a huge chunk of content and had to do with dragons with big, cool instances in terms of story... this was pretty intense ride, even compared to Elderslade. Idk, maybe they should have charged more for it?


Now, is Elderslade small compared with the past? Maybe. But mainly due to 80 mission quests that feel like grinding fluff not even worth doing (= no story either) The size of the area itself is just fine and the battlements are freaking epic. But that it wasn't done together with INSIDE of Gundabad it gives me hope. We really need the splendour of Moria for Gundabad, size included. And who knows, maybe they can redeem it with a regular follow-up zone that's gonna become free to those who purchased. As Sev said, it was an experiment, so hopefully they can learn from that... But when it comes to geographical area the size has always been spot-on and exactly what we need, so I have every confidence this is NOT going to change now

[Pontin_Finnberry]

What ever comes next would never be a mini expansion, one of many reasons they pushed back Gundabad (besides wanting to do more with it) was that its too close to The War of Three Peaks, so what ever is next would be free to VIP.

[Fegefeuer]

The former- "larger new releases" that actually feel worth spending money on than tiny bits of nothin' that feel nickle-and-dimmed. I preferred Mordor far more than Minas Morgul for that reason as far as expansion packages go. Rohan was amazing compared to Moria if we are talking sheer scope of how they expanded the game-world, and Moria sure felt worth it's salt more than Eregion. Elderslade is like slapping a "Mini-Expansion" title on Eregion for slightly extra fluff and charging for it.

I'll never forget Rohan. Sure, we waited longer, but it was worth it; they even did a live-action preview for RoR. For all the bugs and issues with mounted combat and the instance cluster, I'll never forget my first time exploring Rohan and how sheer awesome it felt! Every update or expansion has bugs or flaws; a successful one distracts from the flaws by showcasing it's real value while they hot-fix or patch the rest.

So let me pose this question: If the game had sold the Trollshaws, Eregion, the Misties, Evendim, and Forochel, and the North Downs, all as "Mini-Expansions," would the game have really survived to move beyond Eriador (*particularly before F2P when everyone paid monthly for the game)? What if half of Dunland was released as a "Mini-Expansion" and Nan Curunir cost extra? Or if Northern Enedwaith was a "mini-expansion" and "Southern Enedwaith" was a "mini-expansion" and it all collectively cost far more than free-for-VIP, regularly released and smaller zones, and 1 big package for the full expansion?

TBH, I don't think it would have. There would have been no Moria, no Lothlorien, no Mirkwood, no Rohan, no Gondor, no Mordor, and no Rhovanion at large. When I play other games, like GW2 or SWTOR that do smaller updates more frequently, they are clever enough not to over-charge for what they offer, to make it at least - appear - reasonable (*you make more money from more players spending slightly less than less players spending slightly more), and I think that's the main point here:

We've been primed to expect a certain amount of value for a certain amount of cost for each update. Changing that into inconsistency and chaos is not good marketing at all... I truly wish they'd actually accept that some of the players, many of the players, actually pay attention from year to year, and it ain't irrational to say so...

I can tell you this: if they want to charge for a smaller update again like that, the Tiers are FREE for VIP, $30, and $50, not $20, $60, and $100. They'd get so much better press and would still make a bundle- and more players, far more, would probably buy-in.

Cheers!

You are the wisest person commenting in forums to my eyes.

I also love Rohan! East Rohan is one of my favourite areas of the game, and this was the first time I spent real money in Lotro. I felt so much hype when East Rohan was released that I just went to paid for LPs and purchased it (yeah, you could purchase with LP at release!). Of course it was worth!

However, personally I think the best they could do for the game is something like Gondor-Mordor period, just because it is, in my opinion, more healthy for the game. If you think about it, you could compare that to Eriador. Because you get freedom of choice for most of the levelling. And hey, I also loved Mordor a lot!

Have many areas of a single level cap, priced low (795 LP), then release a "mini expansion" (like Far Anorien/Ered Mithrin/Mirkwood) for small cap increase (1995 LP, although I would price it 1495 LP better...), then some more small questpacks (795 LP), and then big expansion like Mordor (2495 LP). Then repeat, stay in the new cap for long time with many areas for low price, then mini expansion etc.

Your sentence: you make more money from more players spending slightly less than less players spending slightly more

SSG doesn't understand this. This is why Rohan homesteads don't have cheap houses, for example. They expect everyone to buy expensive things, they fail to understand that only a small percentage of people buy expensive things. But anyway...

[Pontin_Finnberry]

I think main reason for three peaks being mini xpack is a raid included. Only time when we had raid in quest pack was far anorien, but it was when another company developed the game.

Ered-Mithrin and Enedwaith are quest packs with a raid too, not only Far Anorien

[Arnenna]

Ered-Mithrin and Enedwaith are quest packs with a raid too, not only Far Anorien

And Misty Mountains, and Angmar.

[Elmagor]

You are the wisest person commenting in forums to my eyes.

I also love Rohan! East Rohan is one of my favourite areas of the game, and this was the first time I spent real money in Lotro. I felt so much hype when East Rohan was released that I just went to paid for LPs and purchased it (yeah, you could purchase with LP at release!). Of course it was worth!

However, personally I think the best they could do for the game is something like Gondor-Mordor period, just because it is, in my opinion, more healthy for the game. If you think about it, you could compare that to Eriador. Because you get freedom of choice for most of the levelling. And hey, I also loved Mordor a lot!

Most of people call rohan boring. They have really dull and boring NPC in Rohan. I don't care much about Nona and Horn storyline. And most of Rohan tans looks like one same NPC. You enter city, you complete quests, you tell people again and again what Saruman bad, orcs bad, orcs want to kill you... and people still don't care about it. They don't look like people who fight orcs for ages, and they don't look like people who fight orcs for ages. They lack of coordination and lack of fortification. And after you complete 30-40 quests, they finally start trusting you, but it's just too late. Orcs kill tan, or burn town, or make other bad things, and you need move to next town. And in next town you repeat all of that again. You can't find LEADER who can say to you with first words "I trust you, I care about you, go fight orcs!". Now, they need save dog first, fish something, build wall, repaire houses... clean windows. Who care about orcs? Who care about war?

[TesalionLortus]

Most of people call rohan boring. They have really dull and boring NPC in Rohan. I don't care much about Nona and Horn storyline. And most of Rohan tans looks like one same NPC. You enter city, you complete quests, you tell people again and again what Saruman bad, orcs bad, orcs want to kill you... and people still don't care about it. They don't look like people who fight orcs for ages, and they don't look like people who fight orcs for ages. They lack of coordination and lack of fortification. And after you complete 30-40 quests, they finally start trusting you, but it's just too late. Orcs kill tan, or burn town, or make other bad things, and you need move to next town. And in next town you repeat all of that again. You can't find LEADER who can say to you with first words "I trust you, I care about you, go fight orcs!". Now, they need save dog first, fish something, build wall, repaire houses... clean windows. Who care about orcs? Who care about war?

Hehe. Well yeah, I love Rohan content nonetheless, but this pretty much sums it up. The devs did their best with source material and also, other than wild white mountain orcs, I don't think Rohan faced a lot of organized, strategically planned forces like Saruman throws at them so there is that and they're being dismissive (idiots)... but yeah, speaking expansions and even among quest packs Rohan content and NPCs sure sound boring

This is something many people forget when they compare expansions and their content, I think. Variety and dynamics in the region and landscape questlines matter too. Nowadays content is more dynamic/immersive with lots of cool visuals, flashy effects and attention to the detail on landscape with an ongoing war campaign (or during long storyline sequences/innis). Think Minas Morgul, now Three Peaks. Mordor maybe just a bit but not really. Definitely not Dunland, not Rohan. From the glorified old expansions not even Mirkwood has come close to that, though Moria did a pretty good job of showing us the progress of the Iron Garrison within - but that was just through smart quest chain and NPCs placement, without the extra fluff with legions of soldiers and alternate versions of places we get these days

[Phantion]

Hehe. Well yeah, I love Rohan content nonetheless, but this pretty much sums it up. The devs did their best with source material and also, other than wild white mountain orcs, I don't think Rohan faced a lot of organized, strategically planned forces like Saruman throws at them so there is that and they're being dismissive (idiots)... but yeah, speaking expansions and even among quest packs Rohan content and NPCs sure sound boring

This is something many people forget when they compare expansions and their content, I think. Variety and dynamics in the region and landscape questlines matter too. Nowadays content is more dynamic/immersive with lots of cool visuals, flashy effects and attention to the detail on landscape with an ongoing war campaign (or during long storyline sequences/innis). Think Minas Morgul, now Three Peaks. Mordor maybe just a bit but not really. Definitely not Dunland, not Rohan. From the glorified old expansions not even Mirkwood has come close to that, though Moria did a pretty good job of showing us the progress of the Iron Garrison within - but that was just through smart quest chain and NPCs placement, without the extra fluff with legions of soldiers and alternate versions of places we get these days

SPOILERS below for any who never quested in Rohan, and yeah, this is a longer post because it's really 3 posts in one about 3 different subjects:

I.

Yeah. Rohan basically had to work with the premise of Grima Wormtongue poisoning Theoden slowly while manipulating the whole Realm of Rohan in Saruman's interest. People actually had to - read the quest text - to understand what was going on, and maybe that was the problem - the quest-text medium (*instead of something like, say, SWTOR where you have cut-scenes between your character and NPCs interacting in conversations and paying attention to what's going on). There's a difference between an interactive approach with VO actors and just reading huge walls of text.

I did pay attention. I read every quest. Yes, the chores part was tedious, and I wish they did that less. But I really cared, example, for that Norcrofts farmer who was madly in love and had to escape with his girlfriend, because I read the quest-text. I understood that Mildreth's husband died of foul play near Argonath, and, of course, the Thane of Cliving was dodgy to begin-with: trying to play the valiant soldier with all this business with an unsolved murder and other problems in the town- oh, AND keeping Mildreth's daughter as his ward / a prisoner in one of the watch-towers. Meanwhile, there was that Sithgar ("Star Wars" pun? Or did George Lucas take that root from Old English? Hahahaha!) in Stangard who was totally Wormtongue's toad causing a mess among the garrison (*potentially collaborating with the Khundolar Easterlings in the Brown-lands). Thanks to Wormtongue's actions all over Rohan, Harding, the Reeve of Harwick, got distrustful and closed-up his town, which allowed Langhold to fall to the Easterlings by pure happenstance. Meanwhile, thanks to Nurzum, no word reached Harding from his son out of Wildermore.

All of that chaos was sown by Saruman so Saruman could track-down the Ring and have his almost-encounter with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli on the Eaves of Fangorn in the lore; it also resulted in Eomer's arrest for hunting Orcs against the order of "the King" (really Wormtongue).

Then there was the business with Horn's family in Eaworth and how one of them was a spy for Saruman / Wormtongue and utterly devoted to their cause; separate from most of this, there was the other business with Crumgam, the Black Numenorean Sorcerer, taking advantage of the chaos and pillaging the Sutcrofts with Mordor Orcs, forcing a confrontation with Fastred.

It was all very clever; it's that the design of some of the quests, the low exp per quest, and the astronomical number of quests per deed made it feel plodding and slow.

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II.


Here is what I think the issue is with why many of us find Three Peaks underwhelming. It has to do with the locations and how they are priced. I would have been totally fine with Three Peaks as a content release that cost more LPs / free-for-VIP with some bonus package options to choose from. As you yourself said, it's like the Wastes with the battlefield, and it's like Far Anorien with it's battlefield and the raid, and they simply had Far Anorien cost more LP's. No, I disagree: those areas in Gondor / the approach to Mordor were marketed fine the way they were, and you've actually helped my case in saying what you have said; thanks for that

I'll agree that Ered Mithrim / Iron Hills should've cost more LPs. The expanding of Erebor was honestly part of Strongholds that they didn't get around to yet so they lumped it in, largely responding to right feedback that it was too small as just a great hall from the Allegiances. Since we're discussing geography, it largely has to do with WHERE these new "expansions" are located in relation to the previous ones. You could disguise a smaller zone pretty well if it's further off in the world. Like: Eryn Lasgalen is actually a tiny little valley that was made to feel much bigger in Strongholds, and the Long Lake is a body of water. Because it was a new chunk of landscape further off, it felt substantial enough for what it was worth, because it wowed us with its visuals- Erebor! Long Lake! The Wood-Elves! A destroyed DG!


But Minas Morgul is LITERALLY right next to the far larger Gorgoroth!!! SA Dor Amarth is another layer of a region from a previous Expansion now in a new Expansion!!! So, although I got it because, hey, I'm a fan, I still wasn't pleased; that was a very laughable one, aside from the instance clusters!

Imagine if they had expanded "Mountains of Shadow" as part of the Minas Morgul Expansion instead and had far more terrain north of Cirith Ungol (perhaps opened-up by Mount Doom's eruption) and south of Bar Nirnaeth (maybe even a glimpse of Nurn?) and maybe even the western reaches of the shores of Nurn as well (*easy enough to use invisible walls / the rivers drawn on the map as boundaries)? That would've made it feel far more like an Expansion, and SA Dor Amarth simply could've been the "fifth sub-zone," fulfilling the tradition of five full substantial sub-zones that had started with Rohan. Why, they could've had an unearthed passage in Torech Ungol that Frodo and Sam never reached that could've extended all beneath the Mountains of Shadow and included the Pale Herald's fortress interior and the hidden ways up to the Wastes and Udun with hidden exits to the Wastes, Udun, and Lhingris, which would've explained how those spiders attacked Thranduil in the High Elf Intro, and they also could've had a whole "above ground" sequence of mountain passes where you could've seen North Ithilien, the Wastes, Udun, and Lhingris all from above and up and down the spine of the range. I would have liked it far more; that, combined with the current content, would've counted as the other 3 sub-zones to fill-out the expansion. That also would've let them make Eastern Nurn it's own focus with plenty of room to build on.

Oh well. Hindsight is 20/20 in 2020.

Instead, we got what we got: an area smaller than Old Anorien and a re-tread of part of a former Expansion in a different time-period! And it's not like there were really much differences either; ok, the skies are nicer, it has some trees, some grass, but still: come on!!! Sheesh! It's not like we got a rebuilt Annuminas or a pre-destruction Amon Sul or a Second Age Eregion with gigantic cities of High Elves or something that actually............. felt different???? Substantial differences between then and now?????? It was what it was for the story they were telling; that's why they ought to have added some more to the "Third Age" side of the expansion. They didn't. But even then: the way Lord Elrond describes the Last Alliance in the books didn't really compute with the way they displayed Elendil's Camp and that of Gil-galad and so on. I know it was a seven-year-long-siege, but it wasn't a good sign that the Golden Host / Malledhrim in Mirkwood, or for that matter, Durin's force in Three Peaks, felt significantly larger than the beleaguered few Gondorians and Elves we got in SA Dor Amarth. Pelennor felt more Epic? Black Gate felt more Epic? And all we got was a CINEMATIC?????????? At the end? The encounter in the Dark Tower was awesome! But still: No Battle of Dol Vaeg? No fighting alongside Elendil and Gil-galad till the "big moment" happens? A cinematic instead??????? I was looking forward to something like the Battle of the Black Gate for that!!! I was sorrily disappointed!!!!

That's a problem IMHO. I'm sorry- that did not rub me the right way. "Here's a slightly updated version of one fifth of an expansion you already have (SA Dor Amarth) and a tiny, smaller than Old-Anorien-sized new area, and it costs the same as Gorgoroth." Oh, and the real climax of SA Dor Amarth? Watch it in a quick clip. Excuse me?

Like I said: It's literally - right there next to the previous Expansion. Bad optics. I -always- expected Minas Morgul to be a free, smaller update, because Old Anorien was!!!! So was Far Anorien!!!!!


The same goes for Three Peaks. It's, again, LITERALLY right next to Ered Mithrim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, even when I mentally combine the "war" version with the "regular" version, lovely as the surroundings are, it's kind of harder for me to appreciate it when there's that huge chunk of Ered Mithrim still right next to it, and another large chunk of Wells of Langflood that was also free-for-VIP, and Vales of Anduin was even much bigger than that and also a free-for-VIP update.


The problem isn't what's included in the package. It's the price. It's the marketing. It's the roll-out. It's the optics. It's the approach. So much of it struck a bad nerve for some very logical reasons, and the frustration is that............ solving these "problems" really shouldn't be that complicated. They should know from a wealth of 13 years of past experience what works more and what doesn't work so well.

I agree with you though on the variety and dynamics; I'm not criticizing the story of War of the Three Peaks. It has to do with these surroundings / context of how its packaged! It's all a moot debate anyways since SSG is clearly getting wiser and waiting on Gundabad till they can build it up as something more substantial and right! I'm cautiously optimistic that they are learning from their mistakes Time will tell I guess....

Cheers!

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III.

You are the wisest person commenting in forums to my eyes.

I also love Rohan! East Rohan is one of my favourite areas of the game, and this was the first time I spent real money in Lotro. I felt so much hype when East Rohan was released that I just went to paid for LPs and purchased it (yeah, you could purchase with LP at release!). Of course it was worth!

However, personally I think the best they could do for the game is something like Gondor-Mordor period, just because it is, in my opinion, more healthy for the game. If you think about it, you could compare that to Eriador. Because you get freedom of choice for most of the levelling. And hey, I also loved Mordor a lot!

Have many areas of a single level cap, priced low (795 LP), then release a "mini expansion" (like Far Anorien/Ered Mithrin/Mirkwood) for small cap increase (1995 LP, although I would price it 1495 LP better...), then some more small questpacks (795 LP), and then big expansion like Mordor (2495 LP). Then repeat, stay in the new cap for long time with many areas for low price, then mini expansion etc.

Your sentence: you make more money from more players spending slightly less than less players spending slightly more

SSG doesn't understand this. This is why Rohan homesteads don't have cheap houses, for example. They expect everyone to buy expensive things, they fail to understand that only a small percentage of people buy expensive things. But anyway...

Ty again! Right back at you!

I agree on the Gondor - Mordor period. It was healthier. On the Rohan homesteads, I'd also add that by not having a Small House option, they really shot themselves in the foot; there were probably many players who only wanted smaller, cozier Rohan houses, and they totally cut-off that revenue stream by not making them.

[Elmagor]

SPOILERS below for any who never quested in Rohan, and yeah, this is a longer post because it's really 3 posts in one about 3 different subjects:

I agree what Rohan was very promising, and I read all quest text too. BUT comparing with Gondor, Rohan will feel more tendentions, more slow, some really good storylines and characters shine, but it was buried under huge amount of other thans who wasn't interested into doing their job. And huge amount of quests what don't feels like our job. Like chasing childrens and hitting them with bat. That's why I like SoA and Gondor and I don't like Rohan until Helm's Deep part - SoA and Gondor feels like we helping NPC who trust to us. We was important, we was their friends, they need us, and we need them. Rohan feels like we doing NPC job, while they doing nothing. Rohan thanes don't feels like leaders, like they care about what's going on around them. Grimbold acting more like a little child, not like Theodred's 2nd in command officer. They don't agree with us, they don't thank us, they use as like slaves and don't all of that don't feels like important.