Severlin Chat reactions

[mithelenthor]

VIPs already get free rent on premium houses, so that's another perk that can be added to the list. Like others have said, I'd like to see the gold hobbit presents upgraded to something decent. I log in on four servers pretty regularly and get the exact same thing lots of times on the silver and gold presents. The extra gold Yule goodies were nice last year, to be sure, but the every day presents are really underwhelming. I'd also be up for mithril or some relief from the LI/essence grind.

Yeah the Hobbit presents are a damp squib generally but as the gold is VIP - I agree it could change from 90% of the time being coin exchange !!

I have never bothered with premium housing and so I am guessing that you are saying the upkeep is free for VIPs? However what I was eluding to was that as a VIP you can get a premium house included as part of it.... you get given the house and keep it up to the point that you drop the sub and then you get the chance to buy it or it gets foreclosed with your items returned via escrow.

[Mirhaen]

So, as I understand it as a VIP you get the below minus the quests bundled with Expacs....
[*]Mailbox Field Access!

Yes, we got this in 2014 I believe.

[*]Custom character portrait frame

One. I never used it as for me it doesn't look nice compared to others, but never mind

[*] Access All Character Trait Slots

VIP players have all racial slots unlocked. When no longer VIP, your characters retain all these slots. They can be also purchased.

[*] Daily +100% XP*

+100% XP for 30% of a level (daily upon login). This can be also purchased.

[*] 500 LOTRO Points per month

Correct.

[*] Free weekly Gold Hobbit Present

Yes. I think most will agree that those presents could be better.

[*] Access All Quest Packs and Skirmishes*

Except for those acquired through expansions.

[*] Access All Monster Classes

Yes. Both access to Moors and classes can be purchased also.

[*] Unlimited Chat

This I have to say I'm not sure what it is exactly.

[*] Access All Crafting Guilds

Yes. This can be purchased also.
We need better recipes, crafting definitely need to be viable again.

[*] 20 Slots of Shared Wardrobe Space

Yes. This can be purchased also.

[*] No 5g Currency Cap

Yes. This can be purchased also.

[*] Additional Inventory Slots

Yes. This can be purchased also.

[*] Maximum Auction House Listings

Yes. This can be purchased also.

So, there is also access to the legendary server and event server. And we don't have to pay upkeep for our houses. And latest Subscriber's Jug and Town Service. If I missed anything else, I hope someone will mention.

The list looks good at glance. But, many of those things will stay unlocked after you no longer have sub, and many can be bought in the store. Hence newer players will have benefits out of it while many long time players got all by time and can just drop the sub. That is why I wrote what can be bought.

So question is what can be done to improve yearly sub... and I won't pretend that I am a smart cookie and know the answer to this I think developers might have a hard time to come up with something. One of the problems is the fact that people on various levels need very different things. Another is the fact that people value or use different things. Like for example I'm rarely in Moors and haven't even stepped onto legendary server and event server. But I surely also do not expect nor want sub to be based on my preferences. Sub have to cover great variety of people. So I think we need to look into something that would be more or less generally desirable. For example store discount for VIP players, ability to buy new area with points right away, mithril coins, reduced grind and such sort of thing. Better weekly presents, perhaps being able to choose between few things. There are many people who also like cosmetics, so some mount or housing deco, avatar frames, outfits and so on. Or alternatively reducing some benefits and giving all content for free. Perhaps someone have other and better ideas hopefully

[Symbolika1]

Yes, we got this in 2014 I believe.



One. I never used it as for me it doesn't look nice compared to others, but never mind



VIP players have all racial slots unlocked. When no longer VIP, your characters retain all these slots. They can be also purchased.



+100% XP for 30% of a level (daily upon login). This can be also purchased.



Correct.



Yes. I think most will agree that those presents could be better.



Except for those acquired through expansions.



Yes. Both access to Moors and classes can be purchased also.



This I have to say I'm not sure what it is exactly.



Yes. This can be purchased also.
We need better recipes, crafting definitely need to be viable again.



Yes. This can be purchased also.



Yes. This can be purchased also.



Yes. This can be purchased also.



Yes. This can be purchased also.

So, there is also access to the legendary server and event server. And we don't have to pay upkeep for our houses. And latest Subscriber's Jug and Town Service. If I missed anything else, I hope someone will mention.

The list looks good at glance. But, many of those things will stay unlocked after you no longer have sub, and many can be bought in the store. Hence newer players will have benefits out of it while many long time players got all by time and can just drop the sub. That is why I wrote what can be bought.

So question is what can be done to improve yearly sub... and I won't pretend that I am a smart cookie and know the answer to this I think developers might have a hard time to come up with something. One of the problems is the fact that people on various levels need very different things. Another is the fact that people value or use different things. Like for example I'm rarely in Moors and haven't even stepped onto legendary server and event server. But I surely also do not expect nor want sub to be based on my preferences. Sub have to cover great variety of people. So I think we need to look into something that would be more or less generally desirable. For example store discount for VIP players, ability to buy new area with points right away, mithril coins, reduced grind and such sort of thing. Better weekly presents, perhaps being able to choose between few things. There are many people who also like cosmetics, so some mount or housing deco, avatar frames, outfits and so on. Or alternatively reducing some benefits and giving all content for free. Perhaps someone have other and better ideas hopefully

Hello I liked your discussion and what you came up to! I agree on your proposal (if i think on something to add i'll say it, for now this seems to me very correct ).
Have a nice day!

[Arnenna]

Yes, we got this in 2014 I believe.



One. I never used it as for me it doesn't look nice compared to others, but never mind

VIP players have all racial slots unlocked. When no longer VIP, your characters retain all these slots. They can be also purchased.

+100% XP for 30% of a level (daily upon login). This can be also purchased.

Correct.

Yes. I think most will agree that those presents could be better.

Except for those acquired through expansions.

Yes. Both access to Moors and classes can be purchased also.

This I have to say I'm not sure what it is exactly.

Yes. This can be purchased also.
We need better recipes, crafting definitely need to be viable again.

Yes. This can be purchased also.

Yes. This can be purchased also.

Yes. This can be purchased also.

Yes. This can be purchased also.

So, there is also access to the legendary server and event server. And we don't have to pay upkeep for our houses. And latest Subscriber's Jug and Town Service. If I missed anything else, I hope someone will mention.

The list looks good at glance. But, many of those things will stay unlocked after you no longer have sub, and many can be bought in the store. Hence newer players will have benefits out of it while many long time players got all by time and can just drop the sub. That is why I wrote what can be bought.

So question is what can be done to improve yearly sub... and I won't pretend that I am a smart cookie and know the answer to this I think developers might have a hard time to come up with something. One of the problems is the fact that people on various levels need very different things. Another is the fact that people value or use different things. Like for example I'm rarely in Moors and haven't even stepped onto legendary server and event server. But I surely also do not expect nor want sub to be based on my preferences. Sub have to cover great variety of people. So I think we need to look into something that would be more or less generally desirable. For example store discount for VIP players, ability to buy new area with points right away, mithril coins, reduced grind and such sort of thing. Better weekly presents, perhaps being able to choose between few things. There are many people who also like cosmetics, so some mount or housing deco, avatar frames, outfits and so on. Or alternatively reducing some benefits and giving all content for free. Perhaps someone have other and better ideas hopefully

Gold presents, for me, don't come into this. They too can be purchased, and at the rate of one roll per week, very cheaply. Nobody needs to pay a regular monthly sub to access these.
Unlimited chat is relevant to those who wish to chatter in World unhindered, as message add rate is limited without a sub. However, chatting through messages, kin chat and fellowship channels are not limited.

Free upkeep on Premium houses is only a benefit for players who struggle to generate in game gold. I'm not sure anyone does.

The biggest problem area IMO is the ability for VIPs to buy new release content with their points, but I think it's safe to say that they are moving away from this, and have been since Mordor. It started with just expansions (Mordor and Minas Morgul) and is now reaching further into non expac content. I don't think it will stop there either. They want all players putting money into the game, and as content is the constant here, the thing that every player needs in order to play the game, that is what they will hit.

And that is what will kill the paid sub and lose revenue.

At this point, if that is the road we're on, I think it's a dangerous one, and it would be better to give all players the VIP, and then charge all players for all content. At the very least, they need to allow players to rent parts of VIP, the parts that they benefit from. So, rental to the Moors as one possibility. Those who want it, can rent it per month, and those that don't use it, don't have to pay for something they don't use.

[mithelenthor]

Gold presents, for me, don't come into this. They too can be purchased, and at the rate of one roll per week, very cheaply. Nobody needs to pay a regular monthly sub to access these.

The hobbit presents were always designed to get people comfortable at clicking something to receive a prize.... this then leads to curiosity about lootbox and we all know that isn't free.
However, as Gold is bundled in to the VIP I see no reason to remove it but it certainly needs a fresh list of meaningful items as per your level and a guaranteed drop instead of coin. Only then would it become part of the reason to have VIP

The biggest problem area IMO is the ability for VIPs to buy new release content with their points, but I think it's safe to say that they are moving away from this, and have been since Mordor. It started with just expansions (Mordor and Minas Morgul) and is now reaching further into non expac content. I don't think it will stop there either. They want all players putting money into the game, and as content is the constant here, the thing that every player needs in order to play the game, that is what they will hit.

And that is what will kill the paid sub and lose revenue.

At this point, if that is the road we're on, I think it's a dangerous one, and it would be better to give all players the VIP, and then charge all players for all content. At the very least, they need to allow players to rent parts of VIP, the parts that they benefit from. So, rental to the Moors as one possibility. Those who want it, can rent it per month, and those that don't use it, don't have to pay for something they don't use.

I'm not sure I understand your point here? MM and Mordor were Expac right? We always paid for them....

Except the years when they trialled not having expacs, we usually get an expac between Fall and Christmas yes? So, this year they didn't manage to get enough of the big ticket items that usually come with an expac and by that I mean like Mounted Combat or for this year I think they may have been aiming for ILI update or something similar....

But they couldn't come up with the big ticket items due to working from home for the best part of the year and so they release the content that would have been part of the expac and reduce the cost accordingly.

Now that to me is not unreasonable? Or am i missing your point.
I mean if an ILI update had been included and all the other trappings normally associated with a full blown expac would you then have been happy to pay like normal but at the usual cost of nearly triple the cost of this one?

Or is there two discussions going on here?

1) Value of VIP
2) Paying for content with cash?

[Hephburz-2]

The biggest problem area IMO is the ability for VIPs to buy new release content with their points, but I think it's safe to say that they are moving away from this, and have been since Mordor. It started with just expansions (Mordor and Minas Morgul) and is now reaching further into non expac content. I don't think it will stop there either. They want all players putting money into the game, and as content is the constant here, the thing that every player needs in order to play the game, that is what they will hit.

This fact just isn't true. I'm sorry.

Aside from the fact that the War of the Three Peaks is not worth the money, it is 'exactly' within their marketing strategy, yes, it should have been free to VIPs (probably) as the Where Dragons Dwell update was, although one could easily argue the reverse and that, Where Dragons Dwell ought to have been a paid-for mini-expansion, because not only is it more content than Three Peaks, it was better.

60: Moria (Expansion), Lothlorien (VIP)
65: Mirkwood (Expansion), Enedwaith (VIP)
75: Isengard (Expansion), Great River (VIP)
85: Eastern Rohan (Expansion), Wildermore (VIP)
95: Western Rohan (Expansion), Entwood (VIP)

Then for the period 100-105 they moved away completely from Expansions altogether, the game entered an entirely different version of itself, and we can all agree this was not a good period of time for the game, at least up until the Osgiliath and Pelennor instance clusters were released. At Mordor, we returned to their previous marketing strategy.

115: Mordor (Expansion), Northern Kingdoms (VIP)
120: Where Dragons Dwell "(VIP)", The Vales of Anduin (VIP)

Where Dragons Dwell, again, deviated from the norm, I still maintain that this should probably have been a paid-for mini-expansion, (its store LP price is even higher than the base version of 3-Peaks) just as they've made War of the Three Peaks, although, of course, I'm not complaining, and now, with Minas Morgul, we return to the norm.

130: Minas Morgul (Expansion), Floodfells (VIP)
130: 3-Peaks (Expansion), New area Spring 2021 (VIP)
135/140: Gundabad Fall 2021 (Expansion), New area Spring 2022 (VIP)

So, to suggest, as you do "The biggest problem area IMO is the ability for VIPs to buy new release content with their points, but I think it's safe to say that they are moving away from this", is false in my opinion, it is exactly within the parameters of what they have done in the past. The only issue, I find, is that we are no longer able to purchase Expansions upon release for LP, and this is obviously done to force people to actually spend money rather than use "free" points for new content.

==

The problem highlighted above by the Premium status is one that Severlin commented on himself in the stream, IF, when you were no longer VIP your characters did, in fact, lose access to these Premium features (that is, the features that stay with you on a VIP-Created Character), then VIP itself might have more value to it, 13 years down the line though, this isn't something they can just decide to get rid of.

[Arnenna]

So, to suggest, as you do "The biggest problem area IMO is the ability for VIPs to buy new release content with their points, but I think it's safe to say that they are moving away from this", is false in my opinion, it is exactly within the parameters of what they have done in the past. The only issue, I find, is that we are no longer able to purchase Expansions upon release for LP, and this is obviously done to force people to actually spend money rather than use "free" points for new content.

==

That's exactly what I said. Your - "the only issue" is exactly the same as my "The biggest problem area at the moment".

Inability to buy new content with points. (That started with Mordor), but was only relevant to expacs, because VIP's couldn't buy non expac content with points anyway - they wouldn't show up in the store if subbed (maybe that is what you think I was talking about?). I've always paid cash for expansions, even old ones that had been around for some time when I began playing, but when Mordor launched, the ability to purchase for points, was removed. Paying VIP's pay for those points.

And yes, it's obvious why.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, other than you maybe thought I was talking about non expac content - which was always impossible to buy with points, while subbed - so clearly, not what I meant.

[Hephburz-2]

That's exactly what I said. Your - "the only issue" is exactly the same as my "The biggest problem area at the moment".

Inability to buy new content with points. (That started with Mordor), but was only relevant to expacs, because VIP's couldn't buy non expac content with points anyway - they wouldn't show up in the store if subbed (maybe that is what you think I was talking about?). I've always paid cash for expansions, even old ones that had been around for some time when I began playing, but when Mordor launched, the ability to purchase for points, was removed. Paying VIP's pay for those points.

And yes, it's obvious why.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, other than you maybe thought I was talking about non expac content - which was always impossible to buy with points, while subbed - so clearly, not what I meant.

Misunderstanding

[Dolamrothdame]

Yeah the Hobbit presents are a damp squib generally but as the gold is VIP - I agree it could change from 90% of the time being coin exchange !!

I have never bothered with premium housing and so I am guessing that you are saying the upkeep is free for VIPs? However what I was eluding to was that as a VIP you can get a premium house included as part of it.... you get given the house and keep it up to the point that you drop the sub and then you get the chance to buy it or it gets foreclosed with your items returned via escrow.

Ah, I did misunderstand. That would be a nice perk, might fill up some of those empty Rohan neighborhoods. But I'd actually settle for VIPS being given unlimited basic houses for their alts. That would fill up some of those basic neighborhoods. Or even just remove the basic housing limit period for VIPs. The more houses we have, the more fluff we need. With the conditions you describe, that when the sub drops, the stuff goes into escrow.

[Fegefeuer]

Just wanting to say that I don't agree on making certain features only possible with VIP, and if you drop, you lose it. This will feel that you are forced to be VIP. And I don't think anyone want to feel forced.

I don't play freepside, but this is the most similar to your idea.

If you make multiple / free houses that you lose when unsub, then, personally, this feature will be ignored for me. I won't feel forced to stay VIP for anything.

You get 2 character slots for free while VIP, that you lose if you unsub. But you can unlock these slots with LP. Now imagine that you can't. If you unsub, you can't access to those characters unless you are subbed.

Well, I suppose this already exists as legendary server...

Anyway.

[Fegefeuer]

The problem highlighted above by the Premium status is one that Severlin commented on himself in the stream, IF, when you were no longer VIP your characters did, in fact, lose access to these Premium features (that is, the features that stay with you on a VIP-Created Character), then VIP itself might have more value to it, 13 years down the line though, this isn't something they can just decide to get rid of.

For me this is totally the opposite. I only sub for unlocking these features on alts, and I'm sure there is a huge lot of people like me.

If they delete ex VIP features, they can be sure that I will never ever pay VIP again.

[mithelenthor]

For me this is totally the opposite. I only sub for unlocking these features on alts, and I'm sure there is a huge lot of people like me.

If they delete ex VIP features, they can be sure that I will never ever pay VIP again.

So, are you saying that you only sub for the shortest time and then unlock all the features on all your alts and then drop the sub?

If this is what you mean then you are using the system as it was designed but you are actually part of the problem Severlin I think was eluding to. How can he add value to the current subscription without taking away the very thing that you (and I don't just mean you - I have also done it on alt accounts) are doing by dropping into Sub and then drop at the end of the month.

To make changes and add value he would probably have to affect what you use it for and as above someone said that after so many years since F2P it would be very difficult to now change this

Which is how we got into this circular discussion about creating a new VIP tier which leaves you as a premium with your unlocks and me as a lifer with VIP already paid for the life of the game and then this new super tier of VIP which should attract folks to subscribe...!! and whoever above who said it would kill the game is probably right but as Arnena showed us a few pages back the money for dropped subs can mount up very quickly and is not a small amount of cash.

I guess just like the super grind and the lag, we will just have to suck up what we have until they bring us back home to the shire and then when I can weep at losing Rosie Cotton to Samwise and then try and stowaway on one of the ships west pretending to be Cirdans Boatswain and have the elves heal my broken heart.

[Hephburz-2]

For me this is totally the opposite. I only sub for unlocking these features on alts, and I'm sure there is a huge lot of people like me.

If they delete ex VIP features, they can be sure that I will never ever pay VIP again.

This was the point Severlin was alluding to though, because THIS exists, and because it has always existed it is not something they can get rid of 13-years down the line. The point he was making was that this should never have operated in this way from the beginning. It makes VIP lose its value.

[Boraxxe]

For me this is totally the opposite. I only sub for unlocking these features on alts, and I'm sure there is a huge lot of people like me.

If they delete ex VIP features, they can be sure that I will never ever pay VIP again.

This was the point Severlin was alluding to though, because THIS exists, and because it has always existed it is not something they can get rid of 13-years down the line. The point he was making was that this should never have operated in this way from the beginning. It makes VIP lose its value.

Yes, I agree that's exactly what he was alluding to.

[Arnenna]

This was the point Severlin was alluding to though, because THIS exists, and because it has always existed it is not something they can get rid of 13-years down the line. The point he was making was that this should never have operated in this way from the beginning. It makes VIP lose its value.

Yes, that was the gist of what he said. And you're right, removal of any of it now would plunge the game subscription into chaos. So, they are between a rock and a hard place.

He also went on to say that they need to compile a page that lists all the benefits. I think that is a waste of time for players that have been here, paying a sub for years. They already know, and as we can see in this thread alone, some also know that they can drop the sub without losing much of it.

But saying all that stuff isn't enough, on it's own. They can say "there is too much sand in this desert" as much as they want and it solves nothing. It just tells us what we already know. What they need to do is act, and do something about it.

[thinx]

This was the point Severlin was alluding to though, because THIS exists, and because it has always existed it is not something they can get rid of 13-years down the line. The point he was making was that this should never have operated in this way from the beginning. It makes VIP lose its value.

It doesn't. It was the only way to make this game playable in F2P. The month of EX-VIP was the starter package that included a few things to get the game to a playable level - in absence of other starter packs.
Most of the items can be bought using LP and some of them (e.g. bag space) were included in larger expansion editions.
I really doubt that there would be a lot of premium players without ex-VIP benefits (or a comparable money-only starter package). I wouldn't be here without quick travel.

It is easy to say "this should never have existed", as it has the assumption that the only thing that would change is that they receive more money from players. It ignores the fact that there are cost curves. Demanding more money will not only increase your profit per sold unit, but it will also decrease the number of sold units.

IMO the problem is NOT that VIP lost its value in the beginning. It is the slow loss over time.

• One loss of VIP value is that expansions are no longer available for LP. This changed "VIP, expansions included when spending the stipend responsibly" to "VIP, expansions typically not included".
• Another loss of VIP value is that questpack sized mini-expansions are not included. This changed "VIP, questpacks included" to "VIP, some questpacks are named differently and are not included".
• One more loss of VIP value is the inflation of the stipend value. In 2010 it was "save for expansions or buy a little luxury". In 2020 it is "you cannot buy expanions and the stipend is a drop on the hot stone of your LP needs, luxury is extra".

THIS is the problem. The idea that it is possible to get a lot more money from VIPs by milking them. The problem is not that VIP has little value. It is that they changed the architecture around it such that it is "VIP and you also need this and that and here and there and ....".
Ex-VIP advantages are just a cheap scapegoat that is blamed. Probably it also helps to blame premiums as the bad guys.

[Arnenna]

It doesn't. It was the only way to make this game playable in F2P. The month of EX-VIP was the starter package that included a few things to get the game to a playable level - in absence of other starter packs.
Most of the items can be bought using LP and some of them (e.g. bag space) were included in larger expansion editions.
I really doubt that there would be a lot of premium players without ex-VIP benefits (or a comparable money-only starter package). I wouldn't be here without quick travel.

It is easy to say "this should never have existed", as it has the assumption that the only thing that would change is that they receive more money from players. It ignores the fact that there are cost curves. Demanding more money will not only increase your profit per sold unit, but it will also decrease the number of sold units.

IMO the problem is NOT that VIP lost its value in the beginning. It is the slow loss over time.

• One loss of VIP value is that expansions are no longer available for LP. This changed "VIP, expansions included when spending the stipend responsibly" to "VIP, expansions typically not included".
• Another loss of VIP value is that questpack sized mini-expansions are not included. This changed "VIP, questpacks included" to "VIP, some questpacks are named differently and are not included".
• One more loss of VIP value is the inflation of the stipend value. In 2010 it was "save for expansions or buy a little luxury". In 2020 it is "you cannot buy expanions and the stipend is a drop on the hot stone of your LP needs, luxury is extra".

THIS is the problem. The idea that it is possible to get a lot more money from VIPs by milking them. The problem is not that VIP has little value. It is that they changed the architecture around it such that it is "VIP and you also need this and that and here and there and ....".
Ex-VIP advantages are just a cheap scapegoat that is blamed. Probably it also helps to blame premiums as the bad guys.

I don't think any type of player should be categorised as "the bad guys". We're all players, and all equally valuable.

The problem though is that SSG decide to target certain types of players and use a catch all net to do it. They do this all the time. Not just when they want to get players to spend some real money, we see it as soon as an exploit raises its head too.

I have one of each type of account. Hubby's lifer account, My own main ex VIP account, Premium account and a Ftp account, so I have a good comparison across the board on this.

The account I play properly is my main account, which has been paid subscription for years. 6 years uninterrupted annual sub, then the last two years subbing on and off, as and when they peeved me off. On top of that, all expansions bought for real cash, even ones that were old, when I started playing, and some of them (the ones that were available) at legendary/collectors editions.

I was subbed when the free period hit in April (because I was playing new content on Anor), not that it made any difference to me as I owned all content at that point anyway. I was tied into that sub, regardless, even though I'd finished with Anor, and when it ran out, I renewed to play on the Bombadil server for a bit, having faith that my sub would pick up it's value again once the free period ended. Then they extended it. I let it expire after that, but still - they were getting payments from me while the content was all free. Content I had already purchased.

Then came the quest pack mini expac. So I decided not to sub and buy the base pack. I won't be buying content like that again.

So, I get it, "the game needs to make money". Thing is - they were making money out of me, even when they were giving everything away.

They're not anymore though. Nor will they. They made the sub worthless while I was paying for it, still happy to take my money and then they took it even further after I had stopped paying for it, by charging for content that should have been included. Why would I resub under those circumstance? I'm probably not the only one that was affected by it either.

If they are losing sub money after all that - it's their own fault.

[Fegefeuer]

This was the point Severlin was alluding to though, because THIS exists, and because it has always existed it is not something they can get rid of 13-years down the line. The point he was making was that this should never have operated in this way from the beginning. It makes VIP lose its value.

But you don't understand my point, and I think Severlin also doesn't understand it.

Assuming that there is a lot of persons thinking like me, since they do the same as me, I tell you my reasons...

I am never sub for long time because I dislike sub. I feel like I must play all the time for it to be worth, and it is renting, not buying. I am not subbed to anything else, nor netflix, wow, etc. Whatever you want.

When I sub to lotro for 1 month, I only do because to my eyes, I am buying the ex-VIP permanent features. So, I can't buy swift travel for points, then I just spend money 1 TIME and I unlock it. I buy it. I don't rent it. In fact, I could buy VIP, log my characters for ex-VIP permanent features, and then don't log again and wait for VIP to finish. I don't care playing the game while VIP. For me, I pay money because I'm buying the ex-VIP permanent features.

If they delete ex-VIP permanent features, I would never ever buy VIP again, because then I'm spending money for renting only, I don't buy anything. I don't keep any benefit when my VIP is gone. Then, it's not worth for me. Zero value. Maybe it would have value for you, but for me, and people who are like me, it has zero value.

Make the distinction between "buy" and "rent". To my eyes, when I pay VIP, I'm "buying" swift travel and the traits unlock. I don't care for the rest of "rented" benefits. If they make swift travel and traits unlock "rented", then I will never "buy" VIP again.

And swift travel is a must for me. They remove swift travel from my characters, and I will never spend more money in this game. I would even uninstall, but I will stay just because I love The Lord of the Rings. But I would only play hunter. And I repeat, I will never pay money again. Even if that means to level up with wargpens and become landscape explorer.

[BigLotroFan]

But you don't understand my point, and I think Severlin also doesn't understand it.

Assuming that there is a lot of persons thinking like me, since they do the same as me, I tell you my reasons...

I am never sub for long time because I dislike sub. I feel like I must play all the time for it to be worth, and it is renting, not buying. I am not subbed to anything else, nor netflix, wow, etc. Whatever you want.

When I sub to lotro for 1 month, I only do because to my eyes, I am buying the ex-VIP permanent features. So, I can't buy swift travel for points, then I just spend money 1 TIME and I unlock it. I buy it. I don't rent it. In fact, I could buy VIP, log my characters for ex-VIP permanent features, and then don't log again and wait for VIP to finish. I don't care playing the game while VIP. For me, I pay money because I'm buying the ex-VIP permanent features.

If they delete ex-VIP permanent features, I would never ever buy VIP again, because then I'm spending money for renting only, I don't buy anything. I don't keep any benefit when my VIP is gone. Then, it's not worth for me. Zero value. Maybe it would have value for you, but for me, and people who are like me, it has zero value.

Make the distinction between "buy" and "rent". To my eyes, when I pay VIP, I'm "buying" swift travel and the traits unlock. I don't care for the rest of "rented" benefits. If they make swift travel and traits unlock "rented", then I will never "buy" VIP again.

And swift travel is a must for me. They remove swift travel from my characters, and I will never spend more money in this game. I would even uninstall, but I will stay just because I love The Lord of the Rings. But I would only play hunter. And I repeat, I will never pay money again. Even if that means to level up with wargpens and become landscape explorer.

I feel the same way. I DO NOT like software subscriptions. I have paid $900 in the past for Adobe’s suite but I will not subscribe to it for $20/mo or whatever they charge now. I only started playing lotro when it went f2p. I have spent real money on it but only to “own” content (as much as one can own anything of this game). I signed up for one month of vip long ago only because of the permanent unlocks. I would have never done that had they not been permanent. I don’t want to rent. I see no value in that.

[Narthalion]

Why would I resub under those circumstance? I'm probably not the only one that was affected by it either.

You're not. There are a LOT of others.

And now, the Devs are stuck.

But you're right...they've created the mess themselves.

[Hephburz-2]

But you don't understand my point, and I think Severlin also doesn't understand it.

Assuming that there is a lot of persons thinking like me, since they do the same as me, I tell you my reasons...

I am never sub for long time because I dislike sub. I feel like I must play all the time for it to be worth, and it is renting, not buying. I am not subbed to anything else, nor netflix, wow, etc. Whatever you want.

When I sub to lotro for 1 month, I only do because to my eyes, I am buying the ex-VIP permanent features. So, I can't buy swift travel for points, then I just spend money 1 TIME and I unlock it. I buy it. I don't rent it. In fact, I could buy VIP, log my characters for ex-VIP permanent features, and then don't log again and wait for VIP to finish. I don't care playing the game while VIP. For me, I pay money because I'm buying the ex-VIP permanent features.

If they delete ex-VIP permanent features, I would never ever buy VIP again, because then I'm spending money for renting only, I don't buy anything. I don't keep any benefit when my VIP is gone. Then, it's not worth for me. Zero value. Maybe it would have value for you, but for me, and people who are like me, it has zero value.

Make the distinction between "buy" and "rent". To my eyes, when I pay VIP, I'm "buying" swift travel and the traits unlock. I don't care for the rest of "rented" benefits. If they make swift travel and traits unlock "rented", then I will never "buy" VIP again.

And swift travel is a must for me. They remove swift travel from my characters, and I will never spend more money in this game. I would even uninstall, but I will stay just because I love The Lord of the Rings. But I would only play hunter. And I repeat, I will never pay money again. Even if that means to level up with wargpens and become landscape explorer.

And if they never existed in the first place as Ex-VIP benefits, you wouldn't be buying VIP for that reason, because they wouldn't exist.

[Fegefeuer]

And if they never existed in the first place as Ex-VIP benefits, you wouldn't be buying VIP for that reason, because they wouldn't exist.

If ex VIP benefits didn't exist since the beginning, I would have never paid VIP in this game. I wouldn't be buying VIP, not at all. I wouldn't have any reason to buy VIP, because I don't pay to rent in games.

[Hephburz-2]

If ex VIP benefits didn't exist since the beginning, I would have never paid VIP in this game. I wouldn't be buying VIP, not at all. I wouldn't have any reason to buy VIP, because I don't pay to rent in games.

And that is your decision to make, which is fair - but in 90% of other MMOs when you stop paying a subscription you lose access to all features you unlocked (outside of permanent character advancement) when you cancel your sub.

Because LOTRO does not work in this way, and because you keep access to many features when you stop paying VIP, it's hard for them to make it worth more.

[Fegefeuer]

And that is your decision to make, which is fair - but in 90% of other MMOs when you stop paying a subscription you lose access to all features you unlocked (outside of permanent character advancement) when you cancel your sub.

Because LOTRO does not work in this way, and because you keep access to many features when you stop paying VIP, it's hard for them to make it worth more.

That's fine, but then I don't play mmos that require you to be subbed. If lotro was sub only, I wouldn't play. I still think that if they remove ex VIP features, then VIP value for me is zero. Personal decision, sure. But remember that I'm not the only one thinking like this, meaning that they got a lot of revenue from us, even if in the distant past.

Also, if they remove the permanent features, I will feel scammed. Because I paid for that. If they remove it, better that they return the money to people who paid for it, right? But won't happen, obviously. This is the main reason why I would never pay money in this game again if they do it, I can't stand being scammed. If they can change their rewards of already payed stuff when they want, I have zero confidence in them as company.

[Hephburz-2]

That's fine, but then I don't play mmos that require you to be subbed. If lotro was sub only, I wouldn't play. I still think that if they remove ex VIP features, then VIP value for me is zero. Personal decision, sure. But remember that I'm not the only one thinking like this, meaning that they got a lot of revenue from us, even if in the distant past.

Also, if they remove the permanent features, I will feel scammed. Because I paid for that. If they remove it, better that they return the money to people who paid for it, right? But won't happen, obviously. This is the main reason why I would never pay money in this game again if they do it, I can't stand being scammed. If they can change their rewards of already payed stuff when they want, I have zero confidence in them as company.

But this was the point Sev was making, they CANT remove those benefits, for all the reasons you just said.

But this does now mean it is more difficult to make VIP worth more.