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  1. #1
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    How many classes in LOTRO, why MPes never get counted?

    LOTRO is sitting on un-develloped real estate.

    If one types into google: How many classes in LOTRO? Answer is: 10.

    MP should be built into classes that people could play in 2020. As of now these 6 classes and troll are completely out of date, in a way of scope.

    Here is my post on these things in MP side of forums:
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...EEP-side-ideas

    Update should start with character creation screen really.
    make it follow same idea as free people characters.
    Race / Class - descriptions and origins.

    Then there should be places of origin of each Race, in game built out... Stuff like this.

    LOTRO has 17 classes. PEOPLE WANT to play these classes. Why not make people happy?

    Currently Creeps (MPes) are caged in small area and SoA (very original LOTRO) mechanics / interface. - Set them free, even if step by step.

    Above is in regards to the upcoming stat bump or rework?
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...postid=8045771

  2. #2
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    MPes are a minority, even on forums (it may not feel that way, but it is) I am not a big MPc player but really, there is a lot of fun to be had there. ESPECIALLY if one likes the pvp.

    So, i went around forums and collected some posts and threads as a reply to my original "idea".

    Here it is:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...EEP-side-ideas

    Take a look some excellent threads are listed there.

    PvMP has a lot of fans, it should be supported. It's classes should be all brought somewhat "inline" with Free people (Freeps).

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    LOTRO is sitting on un-develloped real estate.

    If one types into google: How many classes in LOTRO? Answer is: 10.

    MP should be built into classes that people could play in 2020. As of now these 6 classes and troll are completely out of date, in a way of scope.

    Here is my post on these things in MP side of forums:
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...EEP-side-ideas

    Update should start with character creation screen really.
    make it follow same idea as free people characters.
    Race / Class - descriptions and origins.

    Then there should be places of origin of each Race, in game built out... Stuff like this.

    LOTRO has 17 classes. PEOPLE WANT to play these classes. Why not make people happy?

    Currently Creeps (MPes) are caged in small area and SoA (very original LOTRO) mechanics / interface. - Set them free, even if step by step.

    Above is in regards to the upcoming stat bump or rework?
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...postid=8045771
    The game's the way it is because of the one-sided way the book's written, the Free Peoples get all the attention and the Enemy are the scantly-detailed opposition who exist simply as a foil for the good guys. MP characters have no role outside PvMP because there's no meaningful role to be had and never has been.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The game's the way it is because of the one-sided way the book's written, the Free Peoples get all the attention and the Enemy are the scantly-detailed opposition who exist simply as a foil for the good guys. MP characters have no role outside PvMP because there's no meaningful role to be had and never has been.

    Well, it's all a matter of logic on some level. If you were to say: "books", it would start a whole discussion. As an example before books were written there were no books. When books were written there was no computers and computer games. According to the books hobbit race player characters are good for story telling only and we have then running as top DPS classes: Hunter, Warden, Burglar so on and so forth. Many inconsistencies can be found everywhere and with everything.

    PvMP was at some point made, it has attracted people that like it.

    PvMP is still there and is still drawing new players.

    PvMP needs attention. Starting from character creation screen and ending with enlarged area of PvMP "home / safe" area.

    PvMP is a choice as long as it is offered, make these people happy?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    Well, it's all a matter of logic on some level. If you were to say: "books", it would start a whole discussion. As an example before books were written there were no books. When books were written there was no computers and computer games. According to the books hobbit race player characters are good for story telling only and we have then running as top DPS classes: Hunter, Warden, Burglar so on and so forth. Many inconsistencies can be found everywhere and with everything.

    PvMP was at some point made, it has attracted people that like it.

    PvMP is still there and is still drawing new players.

    PvMP needs attention. Starting from character creation screen and ending with enlarged area of PvMP "home / safe" area.

    PvMP is a choice as long as it is offered, make these people happy?
    I said that the game is the way it is because it echoes something about the books, that the Enemy simply aren't fleshed out like the Free Peoples are. That's why PvMP exists in its own space, because PvE in this game is one-sided just like the way the books are written. There's no point trying to flesh out MP characters as if there's some sort of story for them, or giving them origins and whatnot as if they were proper player-characters. They aren't and won't ever be because it's the wrong game for that.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I said that the game is the way it is because it echoes something about the books, that the Enemy simply aren't fleshed out like the Free Peoples are. That's why PvMP exists in its own space, because PvE in this game is one-sided just like the way the books are written. There's no point trying to flesh out MP characters as if there's some sort of story for them, or giving them origins and whatnot as if they were proper player-characters. They aren't and won't ever be because it's the wrong game for that.
    I have come to think that the current (latest) members of the community either do not know the history of the development of the game or just do not think that it is relevant. One logo on the all of the startup pages is the ME (tm). That is the Middle Earth copyright of the Tolkien estate. The had ultimate veto power of the what was included in V1 of LotRO. There was strong resistance from them to keep ANY PVP from the game. PvMP was a late compromise to allow any PvP content at all.

    To answer the OP, the reason that MPs are never counted is that they do not have and I believe will never have access to the full PvE scope of the game.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I said that the game is the way it is because it echoes something about the books, that the Enemy simply aren't fleshed out like the Free Peoples are. That's why PvMP exists in its own space, because PvE in this game is one-sided just like the way the books are written. There's no point trying to flesh out MP characters as if there's some sort of story for them, or giving them origins and whatnot as if they were proper player-characters. They aren't and won't ever be because it's the wrong game for that.
    Still sailing the Westerlies while neglecting the depths and the altitude. Chasing the same echoes while ignoring the whispering winds. So linear.

    There's plenty enough to do it considering whole regions exists due to one or two lines of sentence.



    It's only the wrong game for that until the games survival comes into question. Then the story teller has a choice. Do they accept finality, or do they concede there is two sides to every story? Now that is a question of value one day to let the future shine upon.
    "That what is explicitly two, can at the same time be implicitly one."

    Alan Watts

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post

    Currently Creeps (MPes) are caged in small area and SoA (very original LOTRO) mechanics / interface. - Set them free, even if step by step.

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...postid=8045771
    This would not work for a lot of reasons.

    First, a lot of pvpers are avid LOTR fans that also enjoy PvE play. I know this because every kin I've been in have had pvmp players that are also PvE players, and they play both freep and creep. Not every pvmp player wants creeps to be set free.

    Second, the physical game world would not be compatible. To have good pvp gameplay, you have to have the terrain set in a way for good balance. And that is not even thinking about the lag. Can you imagine creeps in Bree? Bree lags enough as it is.

    Third, the game world is HUGE. That means everyone is going to be spread out, and from what I've read here in the forums, creeps are not that numerous.

    And fourth, and this is a biggie, you don't mess with an established playerbase in an old MMO that has a steady income from them. Can you imagine the current players leaving if the creeps were free? You can't make that big of a change with players, especially in a small MMO like LOTRO. And it doesn't matter if there is some kind of pvp flagging option for PvE players, you are still going to have griefing.

    For the record, I do not hate pvp, and I have nothing against it. I'm all for you guys getting attention and updates. I WANT you guys to get your dues. But setting Creeps free? No.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  9. #9
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    I'm not against the idea of freeing creeps to the open world, but only if it is on it's own server. One server, where the world is opened up to all PVE and PvP players that wish to take part. Not like Bombadil, but full, free PvP play. No opting out, if you join, then you're fair game, anywhere in the open world, excluding any hub which would be a safe zone. For example, anywhere that a mob doesn't enter on the current worlds, like Bree Town for Breeland, and special current mob heavy camps for creeps, like Cirith Nur for Breeland.

    Releasing creeps onto the current worlds though, would see PvE players leave the game in droves.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapienze View Post
    Still sailing the Westerlies while neglecting the depths and the altitude. Chasing the same echoes while ignoring the whispering winds. So linear.

    There's plenty enough to do it considering whole regions exists due to one or two lines of sentence.

    It's only the wrong game for that until the games survival comes into question. Then the story teller has a choice. Do they accept finality, or do they concede there is two sides to every story? Now that is a question of value one day to let the future shine upon.
    In meaningful, practical terms there aren't really two sides to this story, as one so utterly dominates the other. There's no way to contrive an equivalent story for the bad guys in this setting because they're not given equivalent treatment, just barely enough to make them viable as 'the Enemy' - pitifully little compared to all the attention Tolkien lavished on the Free Peoples - and because LOTR is so one-sided in outcome. While MP characters could do with some more variety, they're otherwise at the limit of their usefulness - like their namesakes in the book, they're enough to make a viable Enemy and that's all they need to be. Adding new regions doesn't just depend on one or two sentences, they're a product of the overall scenario, who the protagonists are and who their opposition is. If you were to have playable bad guys there'd be nowhere near enough variety in terms of opposition for them, as there's no equivalent set of 'monsters' on the 'good' side of things for the bad guys to fight.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I'm not against the idea of freeing creeps to the open world, but only if it is on it's own server. One server, where the world is opened up to all PVE and PvP players that wish to take part. Not like Bombadil, but full, free PvP play. No opting out, if you join, then you're fair game, anywhere in the open world, excluding any hub which would be a safe zone. For example, anywhere that a mob doesn't enter on the current worlds, like Bree Town for Breeland, and special current mob heavy camps for creeps, like Cirith Nur for Breeland.

    Releasing creeps onto the current worlds though, would see PvE players leave the game in droves.
    This I would be cool with, a separate open pvp server.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I'm not against the idea of freeing creeps to the open world, but only if it is on it's own server. One server, where the world is opened up to all PVE and PvP players that wish to take part. Not like Bombadil, but full, free PvP play. No opting out, if you join, then you're fair game, anywhere in the open world, excluding any hub which would be a safe zone. For example, anywhere that a mob doesn't enter on the current worlds, like Bree Town for Breeland, and special current mob heavy camps for creeps, like Cirith Nur for Breeland.

    Releasing creeps onto the current worlds though, would see PvE players leave the game in droves.

    I never said anything to do with open pvp.


    -In fact i am against it.

    However there should be a way to invest some attention into MP side of things. Currently their game is just too small. Do they have 1% of the resources / map? If they do, imagine what would happen if it got doubled?

    PvMP is very popular, clearly never, not with all players. It is a segment. But it is so limited because the creep side game is just so small.

    There are new regions released for freeps several times a year. A tiny fraction of same would make a whole community happier.

    AGAIN, I personally am against open world PvP. This in my mind does not equal suddenly Creeps in Bree. - How people arrive at such, is a mystery to me.

    Lag issue because there are too many players, some one said? Oh the only solution to that kind of lag is to close down LOTRO for good.

    What I am saying is:

    Give some more PvE to creeps with some unique rewards.

    Imagine if all of that PvE was in expansion content, like Mordor and Minas Morgul? (people would have to buy these to get rewards)

    Simple PvE (unique landscape enemies) for creeps in a "new" area, that is the idea.

    In my opinion, There should be no creep access to Eriador. Because it's a starter area. I think this is clear. (Case of Angmar though should be considered, as it is "Angmar Army").

    And yet again:

    To give Creep side more things to do is to make Creep side much stronger in numbers. More ready for PvMP in PvP designated areas......


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I said that the game is the way it is because it echoes something about the books, that the Enemy simply aren't fleshed out like the Free Peoples are. That's why PvMP exists in its own space, because PvE in this game is one-sided just like the way the books are written. There's no point trying to flesh out MP characters as if there's some sort of story for them, or giving them origins and whatnot as if they were proper player-characters. They aren't and won't ever be because it's the wrong game for that.

    You know, when I post, at these times I assume that only adults are talking to me, never kids. And if there are kids talking, then I still treat them as if there were adults.

    With that out of the way.

    You write here:

    "They aren't and won't ever be because it's the wrong game for that."

    And my reply is: There is no such a thing as right or wrong. It is like chess you play with white pieces or with black. Because it is a "game". Further more, a lot of people do not play to win, they are playing to play, have good time, feel good while doing it.

    And so for many years PvMP is offered here. And many people LOVE it. I have met many that do. I like looking at Shire Street Lights the most, myself.

    There is no updates to the moors side of the lotro for freeps or creeps for years now. The essences available as reward to freeps are level 7? Something like that.

    Whole thing is small and there is very little to do, especially for creep side.

    Say If it was doubled in size, it would in no way affect the rest of the game, but could make some people more happy.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    You write here:

    "They aren't and won't ever be because it's the wrong game for that."

    And my reply is: There is no such a thing as right or wrong.
    Generalising, much? Of course there can be. Ignoring how the game's set up (and the good reasons why it is the way it is) and treating it as a tabula rasa that allows for anything doesn't make for practical suggestions. And don't try to move the goalposts, you weren't simply talking about making the PvMP environment larger. If it were simply that then sure, have at it, as that wouldn't change how PvMP relates to the rest of the game. What you did appear to be talking about was something different, giving MP characters a bunch more PvE content as if they were full-fledged' PvE player-character classes (rather than something more limited) and that was where I drew the line.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Generalising, much?
    Don't I need to, to hold your attention?


    --------------------------------------------------------------

    When books were written there were no games of sort.

    Free people and Monster characters are based on books.

    Game is made and: Currently characters can be made on both sides.

    Above are facts.

    Also the facts are: Free People side of the moors has not gotten any updates and things like: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Item:Token_of_Valour Tokens of Valour are near useless as they can not produce level cap morale potion.

    Creep side is getting update in regards to thier stats (Update 28.2)

    Freep and creep side should get update in their barterers. - Updated and new stuff.

    Creep side map should be made a bit bigger as Freep side map is really HUGE compared to the creep access map.

    All above is only really a matter of updating what already exists and is in the game, no matter how much of it could really be based on the books.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areyekuwe View Post
    Don't I need to, to hold your attention?
    Err... no?

    When books were written there were no games of sort.

    Free people and Monster characters are based on books.

    Game is made and: Currently characters can be made on both sides.

    Above are facts.

    Also the facts are: Free People side of the moors has not gotten any updates and things like: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Item:Token_of_Valour Tokens of Valour are near useless as they can not produce level cap morale potion.

    Creep side is getting update in regards to thier stats (Update 28.2)

    Freep and creep side should get update in their barterers. - Updated and new stuff.

    Creep side map should be made a bit bigger as Freep side map is really HUGE compared to the creep access map.

    All above is only really a matter of updating what already exists and is in the game, no matter how much of it could really be based on the books.
    What's that got to do with the stuff you were on about before? What you're posting now is just incremental change. But the thing you clearly don't get is that there's supposed to be some asymmetry between the two sides, that's by design (one side is comprised of 'real' player-characters, with everything that goes along with that, and the other isn't) and ultimately that's derived from the way the books handle the evil side. Given that there's no reason to expect them to be directly equivalent in every way. You keep saying there are 'characters' on both sides without acknowledging that by design they weren't ever meant to be the same sort of character and that there was a reason things were set up that way.

  17. #17
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    Freeps are characters who have classes. Based on the Estate's view of the lore creeps are enemies that players can play around with but are not viewed as characters or classes. They were a sop tossed to the players that wanted some form of pvp. This is the one "fact" about how the system was created and works now. By design it is entirely asymetrical.

    If you don't like it push for true pvp. If SSG introduces an Easterling race nothing in the lore prevents them from being evil and thus able to engage in pvp with the existing races who by definition are all considered to be good.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by istvana View Post
    Freeps are characters who have classes. Based on the Estate's view of the lore creeps are enemies that players can play around with but are not viewed as characters or classes. They were a sop tossed to the players that wanted some form of pvp. This is the one "fact" about how the system was created and works now. By design it is entirely asymetrical.

    If you don't like it push for true pvp. If SSG introduces an Easterling race nothing in the lore prevents them from being evil and thus able to engage in pvp with the existing races who by definition are all considered to be good.
    Yes, yes.

    I have no problem with books or asymmetrical design.

    Currently highest level of rewards for Freeps in moors is 105. This is the best and newest tier of any "effort" of updating moors. It is 25 levels away from the cap. In fact descriptions of chests bartered for the Tokens of Valour say "Level Cap" and then actual stuff that pops out of it is level 105.

    -In my mind this is VERY emblematic of what is happening with the moors.

    Everything needs to be brought to level cap of 130. There need to be things to be had by all freeps and creeps.

    As creep area is 1% of 1% of the game they would benefit from expansion into a new map.

    -That in my mind could be accomplished through introduction of PvE for creeps in Mordor and Minas Morgul.

    Again, I am against open world PvP. As that would change nature of the game a lot.

    However Creeps native area that exist, that needs update and possibly a little additional work. And no none of that has anything to do with lore or estate, this is just common sense.

  19. #19
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    Considering that pay wall and the store with all these "buy this skill early" and get a starter bundle.
    -All these things are big in the moors.

    Why not treat your good paying customers a bit better?

    Here is a post from another thread.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...pment-for-PVMP
    This is what I am talking about as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saruman_Of_Numbers View Post




    7 YEARS!

    Congratulations to everyone for seven years of Non-Development!


    Almost 7 years ago, LOTRO developer Joe "JBarry" Barry wrote his developer diary about the updates to PVMP during the Riders of Rohan expansion at lvl 85:

    https://www.lotro.com/en/content/rid...ary-ettenmoors


    who would have guessed that seven years later, we would all be playing a creepside and zone practically unchanged.


    In the intervening time period, freeps have had to suffer through countless changes such as:

    -Trait Trees
    -Imbued legendary items
    -Countless Class updates
    -Animation smoothing
    -Essences / Slotted armour
    -Skill/trait modernization and scaling
    -addition of selfhealing and curing skills

    and no less than 5 major stat overhauls!


    even though only a quarter of creep skills are still scaled to actually do anything, we should celebrate our backwardness!

    it has now been 2555 days since the last PVMP update

    Here's to the Reavers, whose only DPS comes from three skills!
    Here's to all the BAs, whose only DPS comes from two skills!
    Here's to the wargs, whose only DPS comes from one skill!
    Here's to defilers, who can only heal and blight!
    Here's to the spiders whose debuffs are now easily cured!
    Here's to warleaders, who can't heal or do much of anything anymore!
    Here's to the freeps, who can't get audacity gear!


    And here's to all the people getting camped at 1-shot lines and backdoors, for enduring the landscape design that provides zero defensive gradients.


    To another near-decade of non-developemnt!

    THANK YOU DEVELOPERS!

 

 

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