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  1. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Thank you very much for all the feedback folks! A lot of this looks very helpful.

    I'm going to be out most of next week for thanksgiving vacation, meaning I'm not going to be able to act on it immediately, so go ahead and play through with the current layout get a better sense of what's working and what isn't, and I'll look at where things stand when I get back.

    In particular when I return I'll be looking at this keep flipping stuff, any combat usable backdoors that might have been missed in my prior pass, and hopefully some more 'gentle' refinements to specific skills rather than sweeping balance adjustments.

    Larger scale map design alterations aren't on the table at the moment alas, but I'll put some of them in my notes for future activities if I can get some time for that.

    Next year is looking to be very busy for me with some large scale projects, but what I am hoping to do - now that the creeps have been mostly normalized and I have more balancing tools at my disposal for them - is to be able to dedicate at least a few hours a week, or a day or two a month to patching and tweaking PvMP on a regular basis.

    - Vastin
    Thank you for listening! Enjoy your vacation!

    Some things for the future:

    - Separation of PvP and PvE:
    • PvP armour, weapons, jewelry, essences
    • Using the Monster Play Effect




    "Some skills may be altered"

    Here's the solution to so many of our problems and it already exists. Once a Freep player enters the Ettenmoors, they receive this buff. You can use this effect to do some tweaking without affecting PvE balance at all! The effect is gone when they leave the PvP zone.

    Some skills that historically have caused problems: Heart Seeker, Epic Conclusion, Lightning Storm, CDG. These are just examples - obviously there are more. You can add a multiplicator < 1 tied to this effect to balance extremely overpowered skills.

    "PvMP-only items can be used"

    PvE items should be disabled in PvP and vice versa. PvP armour used to interfere with PvE gear progression, making any pre-Raid gear obsolete since PvP armour usually was available at the start of a new update/expansion. PvP and PvE gear progression should be entirely separate. You should also disable LIs in PvP. Creeps and Freeps are so fundamentally different now compared to the early days, that it's impossible to balance. It must be a nightmare from a Dev's viewpoint and the existence of trait trees, LIs etc. contribute to that.

    - Map and Reward System overhaul:

    As people have already mentioned, some of the changes that were introduced with the release of Update 8, Riders of Rohan (October 15, 2012) need to reverted back.

    • Map: Location of EC/OC, rez circles and auto-flip
    • Reward System



    source: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Upd...tober_15,_2012

    ->
    • Remove Healing from the equation. Only damage should make you a contributor (as it used to be).
    • Reintroduce the 80m distance limit. Right now, you can put a Heal over Time on someone and receive Infamy/Commendation gains from the other side of the map. Also, the "damaged/healed within 20s of the player's defeat" time limit doesn't seem to work properly.


    We need to get rid of system designs that encourage zerging and toxic gameplay. Individual(!) skill and effort should be rewarded. Solo/Small group fights need to be encouraged. Right now, for every damage dealer, there are 2 healers in the Moors. People simply don't die as frequently anymore as they used to, which creates huge melting points of players (=zerg). People's buff bars are also full with buffs/debuffs (=lag).

    Quote Originally Posted by CHEBURASHKA View Post
    - Creeps need cleanse skills
    Reason: freeps have huge number of cleanse skills like muster courage, scribe a new ending, story of courage etc. that allow them to remove debuffs and dots while creeps have NO WAY to remove them except for pots with 30 sec cd. So in terms of balance it would be fair if both sides had the same abilities.
    Agreed, and I might have a short term solution since I don't see new skills happening anytime soon.


    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...oris&#39;_Kiss

    Change this from poison effects to any effect and lower the CD from 60s to 20s. Maybe it should also be cheaper than other potions -> Every Creep has a cleanse now
    Last edited by Daenirion; Nov 21 2020 at 10:12 AM.

  2. #327
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    all the monsterplayers want to be able to leave the moors.
    so there should be a performant pvmp server only for pvmp.
    where it is possible to fight elves against dwarfs for example as well as heros against monsters. in the whole lotro world. that would be a great thing!

  3. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    These sorts of bugs are nasty. If you can figure out a repro for it, that would help a lot. Hopefully it's not something like 'play on a heavily loaded server until you get randomly stuck in combat for no apparent reason' - because those are incredibly difficult to hunt down.

    If you CAN narrow it down to some specific effect or situation that seems to cause it that would be enormously helpful.

    -Vastin
    Thanks I will see what I can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brolad View Post
    Creeps who attack them become stuck in combat with them, and anyone who heals these creeps becomes stuck in combat as well. There definitely are more ways that do not involve RK stones but from my observation it happens more often on laggy days.
    I think you're probably correct, that lag is a component in this bug. Though I've definitely encountered it with Loremasters as well. It happened just days ago when running ungrouped and not lagged out. After defeating a LM and only an LM (other players contributed to this kill) I remained in the combat state until I had to relog. I really have no idea exactly what causes this bug.

    Any Rks or Loremasters on Evernight (or Arkenstone - have a r7 Def there) willing to trial a combat test with me? If so send me a forum PM and we'll arrange it. xx

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaChaLoco View Post
    Your list is good, but I disagree with this one point. I would rather they reduce, limit or otherwise disable many of the rezzes that Freeps have in PvP rather than give the Defiler an in-combat rez.
    I can't see that ever happening. Specific (and new) engineering would I expect be required to disable individual freep skills in the moors. If that were possible I'd have no objection in theory - whatever can be done to improve pvp I'm all for. But that would open a proper can of worms! The debate over what other freep skills should be barred from use would be endless, and would no doubt become eventually, and probably very quickly, toxic.

    Far better I feel to simply somewhat equalize access to these (and other) abilities. An amendment to the traited Enhanced: Fell Sacrifice that allowed in-combat rezzes would I think be the simplest/cleanest solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHEBURASHKA View Post
    Bugs:
    - (Defiler skill) ‘Tenderize’ does not daze the target for the amount of time it is supposed to
    It says: “25% chance to apply 8 seconds Daze” so if you take cc DR into account then the daze is supposed to last for 3 seconds on a freep with no audacity gear (which means 25% cc reduction).
    (8/2)*0.75=3
    But instead it lasts for like 0,1 of a second or even less. I even had to record it and watch it in slow motion to see the tooltip of the Daze because of how fast it disappears. And to my surprise it actually says 3 second Daze. (Btw, on live servers Tenderize doesn’t daze at all).
    I would also suggest increasing skill cd and chance of Daze to 75-100%.
    I noted the same here, Tenderize seems to be broken. Kudos for the rest of the post too, many GREAT points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kate00 View Post
    @ Vastin

    Defiler flies drain less power than freep icpr. They are virtually useless. I bugged it a year and a half ago. Would appreciate a fix for it at some point.
    I would say completely useless at the moment, considering that flies don't even survive long enough to have any effect whatsoever on a target. One AoE cut and they're dead. But talking of equalizing access to skills/abilities/features, and I know it's pie in the sky, but for me I would love it if Flies became an actual pet for defilers (not a one-off skill), a la spiderlings for Weavers, or any of the vast array of freep pets available.

  4. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Larger scale map design alterations aren't on the table at the moment alas, but I'll put some of them in my notes for future activities if I can get some time for that.
    Great news that you will look at this! (Elf Camp/Orc Camp I assume). This want/need/desire has received multi-multi-multi-person feedback now, and across multiple threads. If ever a feedback item, from both sides, could be considered more or less unanimous, this is an example. So very glad it has been heard, and we can only hope it is eventually actioned. I would have thought though that so long as previous iterations of the Moors landmass still exists (somewhere in some file, on some harddrive) that it wouldn't be too difficult to restore it to live. If not, we have screenshots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Next year is looking to be very busy for me with some large scale projects, but what I am hoping to do - now that the creeps have been mostly normalized and I have more balancing tools at my disposal for them - is to be able to dedicate at least a few hours a week, or a day or two a month to patching and tweaking PvMP on a regular basis.
    Thank you wholeheartedly. Very encouraging. Please know your work on PvMP is appreciated hugely, and by a lot of people. Is there a more passionate community in Lotro? Arguably not. Do enjoy your thanksgiving break, much deserved!

  5. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    Please know your work on PvMP is appreciated hugely, and by a lot of people.
    U31 / U32: Gundabad PvMP update
    • Introduction of Moors 2.0: a dedicated server for PvMP.
      • Copy your toon, and jump into the fray
      • PvE zones deleted for performance
    • Introduction of a new MP class. Perhaps Sorcerer or goblin-variant of Brawler.
    • New creep skins, animations
    • Addition of new seasonal PvMP tournaments, with unique titles to obtain.
    • Addition of highscores
    • PvMP-based reward system rewarding meaningful gear / upgrades for your character.
    • Vastin given a raise and proper resources for dev work, PvMP maintenance.


    @vastin We appreciate your work and open communication! Haven't seen such activity in a BR round in a while. Above a short wish list. Enjoy the holiday.
    Freeps: R14 LM/ R8 RK / R6 WRD / MNS
    Creeps: R11 WRG/ R11 SPR/ R9 RVR/ R7 WL/ R6 BA/ R5 DFL

  6. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Thank you very much for all the feedback folks! A lot of this looks very helpful.

    I'm going to be out most of next week for thanksgiving vacation, meaning I'm not going to be able to act on it immediately, so go ahead and play through with the current layout get a better sense of what's working and what isn't, and I'll look at where things stand when I get back.

    In particular when I return I'll be looking at this keep flipping stuff, any combat usable backdoors that might have been missed in my prior pass, and hopefully some more 'gentle' refinements to specific skills rather than sweeping balance adjustments.

    Larger scale map design alterations aren't on the table at the moment alas, but I'll put some of them in my notes for future activities if I can get some time for that.

    Next year is looking to be very busy for me with some large scale projects, but what I am hoping to do - now that the creeps have been mostly normalized and I have more balancing tools at my disposal for them - is to be able to dedicate at least a few hours a week, or a day or two a month to patching and tweaking PvMP on a regular basis.

    - Vastin
    Awesome to hear, I hope you remove keep flipping permanently, it's a PVP zone not a PVE zone after all.

    I don't think many are asking for large scale map alterations, most of us just want to move EC/OC back to their original locations. That along with the NPC boost that you've already announced would help a lot.

    For future updates I also suggest looking at the map at large, would it help with performance if you removed parts of the maps that isn't used much and tried to bring down the number of zones?

    If you fix backdoors and keep flipping there's just 2 minor alterations I'd like in the short term, move back EC/OC and remove healing infamy/renown gain (it destroyed small group/solo play).
    Last edited by BlitzKr1eg; Nov 21 2020 at 12:52 PM.

  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by K1llyah View Post
    U31 / U32: Gundabad PvMP update
    • Introduction of Moors 2.0: a dedicated server for PvMP.
      • Copy your toon, and jump into the fray
      • PvE zones deleted for performance
    • Introduction of a new MP class. Perhaps Sorcerer or goblin-variant of Brawler.
    • New creep skins, animations
    • Addition of new seasonal PvMP tournaments, with unique titles to obtain.
    • Addition of highscores
    • PvMP-based reward system rewarding meaningful gear / upgrades for your character.
    • Vastin given a raise and proper resources for dev work, PvMP maintenance.


    @vastin We appreciate your work and open communication! Haven't seen such activity in a BR round in a while. Above a short wish list. Enjoy the holiday.

    That could bring new life into the game, and since it's mostly just current assets being used (except for the new class,skins etc) it shouldn't be awfully resource demanding once you've actually setted it up. If it would mean a big performance increase that would mean a lot to us on Evernight...

  8. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by K1llyah View Post
    U31 / U32: Gundabad PvMP update
    • Introduction of Moors 2.0: a dedicated server for PvMP.
      • Copy your toon, and jump into the fray
      • PvE zones deleted for performance


    @vastin We appreciate your work and open communication! Haven't seen such activity in a BR round in a while. Above a short wish list. Enjoy the holiday.
    Definite thumbs up. The opportunity lies with this slated Eye of Sauron Legendary server. Open the Moors for level 50 capped SoA flavour PvMP. Make it a subbed server too. This = profit for SSG from the PvMPer's that will flock to it. Profits open the way to fund additions:


    • Introduction of a new MP class. Perhaps Sorcerer or goblin-variant of Brawler.
    • New creep skins, animations
    • Addition of new seasonal PvMP tournaments, with unique titles to obtain.
    • Addition of highscores
    • PvMP-based reward system rewarding meaningful gear / upgrades for your character.
    • Vastin given a raise and proper resources for dev work, PvMP maintenance.


    Add:


    • Reintroduction of the Leaderboard system.
    • A ton of other ideas no doubt, best put in another thread.

  9. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion;8048054

    Agreed, and I might have a short term solution since I don't see new skills happening anytime soon.

    [img
    https://i.gyazo.com/ecf08addc5acf19a17b31732565710 ed.png[/img]
    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...oris&#39;_Kiss

    Change this from poison effects to any effect and lower the CD from 60s to 20s. Maybe it should also be cheaper than other potions -> Every Creep has a cleanse now
    I generally agree with some stuff you've said, however I feel like this would be massively overpowered against Wardens who's entire DPS relies on curable wound/cry effects. Their dps already goes through all BPE/R checks (which was buffed heavily), and with an all purpose cleanse you could easily cure all of their dps and they would be so severely gimped that it wouldn't be possible to even play the class. No creep class relies on curable DOT effects in the same way a warden does (spider may be close), so freep cures (and I agree they are excessive) do not mitigate an entire class's dps. I would rather see freep cure get a cd nerf in the moors rather than creeps get excessive cures. What you would end up with is the complete mitigation of CC and debuffs and no class would use them (as you already lean away from them on creep). I think we can come up with a better solution that would have more of a positive effect on fights.
    ~ Third Marshal Anaxander -R12 Warden, Chieftain Karukh -R12 Warg ~ Formerly of Elendilmir

  10. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    I generally agree with some stuff you've said, however I feel like this would be massively overpowered against Wardens who's entire DPS relies on curable wound/cry effects. Their dps already goes through all BPE/R checks (which was buffed heavily), and with an all purpose cleanse you could easily cure all of their dps and they would be so severely gimped that it wouldn't be possible to even play the class. No creep class relies on curable DOT effects in the same way a warden does (spider may be close), so freep cures (and I agree they are excessive) do not mitigate an entire class's dps. I would rather see freep cure get a cd nerf in the moors rather than creeps get excessive cures. What you would end up with is the complete mitigation of CC and debuffs and no class would use them (as you already lean away from them on creep). I think we can come up with a better solution that would have more of a positive effect on fights.
    I'm sorry, but being able to cure once every 20s is not going to make Warden impossible to play. That's such a hyperbolic statement. And how did we go from no cures at all to "excessive" cures just with this change alone? Most Freep cleanses even have shorter CDs and can be used on other players. With this, you'll only be able to cleanse yourself as a Creep.

    Do you really believe that, or are you complaining because you main Warden? People need to keep their personal agenda out of balancing discussions. Not trying to personally attack you btw, but I fail to see how this would be such an issue.

  11. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    I'm sorry, but being able to cure once every 20s is not going to make Warden impossible to play. That's such a hyperbolic statement. And how did we go from no cures at all to "excessive" cures just with this change alone? Most Freep cleanses even have shorter CDs and can be used on other players. With this, you'll only be able to cleanse yourself as a Creep.

    Do you really believe that, or are you complaining because you main Warden? People need to keep their personal agenda out of balancing discussions. Not trying to personally attack you btw, but I fail to see how this would be such an issue.
    I said that clearly, and stated it that Warden dps relies entirely on curable wound/cry effects. Paired with resistance purge, upgraded BPE/R checks and a 3 effect clear every 20s you would effectively shut down warden dps. It's not because I main warden and have personal stake in your proposed change, it's that the change would negatively effect one singular class more than all others. I said that freep cures are excessive and need a nerf, and instead of creating the same situation on creepside as freepside has.. we should find a more positive change that allows for CC and DOT reliant classes. We shouldn't try to mirror sides just because one side is broken, we should try to fix the side that is broken because that is how we create better gameplay. You don't need to attack me because I disagreed with your idea.

    List some freep effects (hunter stacking slows) and propose a positive change for those. List overpowered freep healing effects (mini cure) and how we could rebalance their cd or fellowship/raid distribution.
    ~ Third Marshal Anaxander -R12 Warden, Chieftain Karukh -R12 Warg ~ Formerly of Elendilmir

  12. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by quicksilver3 View Post
    they still give the mit buff. they just no longer pop up under the character sig with all other buffs/debuffs like on live.

    when BR comes back up you can check your mits and see the buff applied.
    Thanks, I'll check that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaChaLoco View Post
    Your list is good, but I disagree with this one point. I would rather they reduce, limit or otherwise disable many of the rezzes that Freeps have in PvP rather than give the Defiler an in-combat rez. I'd even be in favour of the WL rez CD being increased to its old value, provided that Freep rezzes are reduced to what they used to be too. I would hope that--because Creeps are being buffed a lot--fights might slow down a bit rather than just being a nuke-burst race so much, but I don't know that probably won't happen. Anyway I'm not married to this position, these are just my initial thoughts on the topic. I just don't want to see a situation where fights can go on endlessly because of a combination of rezzes on both sides, map-ins, etc.
    That’s a good point and I agree that really long fights caused by endless rezzes is a bad thing. So I support the idea that rezzes on both sides should have longer CDs. BUT giving defiler in-combat rez has two sides to it: 1) firstly, it balances out the discrepancy between the number of freep and creep in-combat rezzes (to some extent at least), 2) secondly, it lets creeps counter freep tactics of killing all Wls first so that creeps have no in-combat rez (for example, in a 6-man group with 2 healers – WL and defiler – killing WL with oathies first is an easy win for freeps).
    Your suggestion fixes only the first problem but not both of them. So even if rez CDs on both sides are reduced we will still need defiler in-combat rez.
    There are of course other ways to solve 2nd problem, though. For instance, by either giving WL some kind of defensive skill to prevent getting nuked or giving defiler some strong defensive CD to save WL (defiler bubble can not be considered strong, in my opinion, because it is easily interruptible).

    Quote Originally Posted by Daenirion View Post
    Agreed, and I might have a short term solution since I don't see new skills happening anytime soon.


    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ite...oris&#39;_Kiss

    Change this from poison effects to any effect and lower the CD from 60s to 20s. Maybe it should also be cheaper than other potions -> Every Creep has a cleanse now
    Sounds good.

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    I said that freep cures are excessive and need a nerf, and instead of creating the same situation on creepside as freepside has.. we should find a more positive change that allows for CC and DOT reliant classes. We shouldn't try to mirror sides just because one side is broken, we should try to fix the side that is broken because that is how we create better gameplay.
    I agree with that. Fixing the broken side is the best solution. But if freeps' broken cleanse is not fixed then either creep dots and debuffs should be made uncurable by skills (because in group PvP they are easily cured) or creeps should get cleanse skills which are similar to freep version.
    Arkenstone - Oiz

  13. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    You don't need to attack me because I disagreed with your idea.
    As I said, I didn't mean to attack you, but it's not a rare occurrence that people push their own agenda. It just came across that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    I said that freep cures are excessive and need a nerf, and instead of creating the same situation on creepside as freepside has.. we should find a more positive change that allows for CC and DOT reliant classes. We shouldn't try to mirror sides just because one side is broken, we should try to fix the side that is broken because that is how we create better gameplay.
    Fair enough. It's not like I don't agree, but these changes would take a while. I suggested the change to the potion because I thought it would be a short term solution until we've figured out how to deal with the problem more permanently.

  14. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Thank you very much for all the feedback folks! A lot of this looks very helpful.

    I'm going to be out most of next week for thanksgiving vacation, meaning I'm not going to be able to act on it immediately, so go ahead and play through with the current layout get a better sense of what's working and what isn't, and I'll look at where things stand when I get back.

    In particular when I return I'll be looking at this keep flipping stuff, any combat usable backdoors that might have been missed in my prior pass, and hopefully some more 'gentle' refinements to specific skills rather than sweeping balance adjustments.

    Larger scale map design alterations aren't on the table at the moment alas, but I'll put some of them in my notes for future activities if I can get some time for that.

    Next year is looking to be very busy for me with some large scale projects, but what I am hoping to do - now that the creeps have been mostly normalized and I have more balancing tools at my disposal for them - is to be able to dedicate at least a few hours a week, or a day or two a month to patching and tweaking PvMP on a regular basis.

    - Vastin
    Hello.

    Thank you for all the work so far vastin! It looks really good and I hope you have a good holiday.
    I cannot wait to start playing both on br and on live when this hits.

    Just something I would say before giving more ideas is that a fact about the pvmp community is that even when pvmp is good and enjoyable we will always have more ideas/arguments on how to improve it. With that in mind I am really happy to hear that even after the update there will be updates and patches on a regular basis going forward.

    I am happy to hear that auto flips will be looked at and I hope removed. crossing fingers. I am also happy to hear all backdoors will no longer be able to be used in combat. Ideally, I think backdoors should be removed all together. Simply because they contribute to the shuffle zerg action.

    As for the discussion on making creeps have reliable cure skills, I do not know if it is possible but there are currently skills on every creep class that seem weak or useless even after the buff that could be adjusted to be cure skills. Of course I think freep cure skills should be nerfed but I do not know if nerfing freeps is on the table for creep balance or moors changes.

    Just to give examples of skills that could be changes to cure skills
    BA: The ba skill "Center" could be changed to remove 2 curable effects.
    Reaver: The reaver skill "Timeout" could be changed to remove 2 curable effects.
    Warleader: "Snap out of it" could be given the ability to clense 1 or 2 curable effects on the target it is applied on
    Weaver: Spider "Drink Deep" could be given the ability to cleanse 2 curable effects
    Warg: Could have "Frenzy" remove 2 curable effects on use
    Defiler: Could have "Slick Flesh" be a small group cure of 1 curable effect per person. This is on a longer cd than the rest so that would offset the strength of an aoe cure.

    I am sure other people can come up with better ideas on cure skills for warg, Defiler, and spider but for BA, reaver and WL, right now all of the above skills are almost useless for them.
    I think the idea of making the potion a 20 second curable consumable is not a good idea and just promotes the spam of a remove all pots. I think adjusting certain skills on the classes would be a better idea.

    Last two things, I think that the aoe out of group healing should be removed because this will be annoying and unreliable for larger groups, also I do not know if you intend to touch heal tagging but I would really suggest getting rid of heal tagging because it just promotes healer spam for both sides and with aoe out of group healing there will be even worse heal tagging.

    Like I said before, We have gotten more than we expected out of this update but we will always have more ideas =D

    Thank you vastin for all your hard work and for keeping us in the loop.

    Kind regards,
    Adapting R12 Reaver, Warleader r9 Warleader on Ark Everlastingyawn r9 Defiler Landy Backpedal r9 Warg Brandy
    Arantoth R10 Champion on Ark Elezmera-3 R11 Ministrel on Ark
    Officer of Prime Evil

  15. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConsistantRager View Post
    Just to give examples of skills that could be changes to cure skills
    BA: The ba skill "Center" could be changed to remove 2 curable effects.
    Reaver: The reaver skill "Timeout" could be changed to remove 2 curable effects.
    Warleader: "Snap out of it" could be given the ability to clense 1 or 2 curable effects on the target it is applied on
    Weaver: Spider "Drink Deep" could be given the ability to cleanse 2 curable effects
    Warg: Could have "Frenzy" remove 2 curable effects on use
    Defiler: Could have "Slick Flesh" be a small group cure of 1 curable effect per person. This is on a longer cd than the rest so that would offset the strength of an aoe cure.
    Good idea. Although freeps do have access to cleansing skills more powerful than 1 or 2 effects, on considerably shorter CDs, and with Aoe skills removing effects from other players they extend to a much greater range than Slick Flesh for example (10m). The above list is perhaps underpowered in some sense, but augmenting redundant Skills is a far better suggestion in my opinion than simply buffing potions. Kudos from me for that.

    But regarding potions that definitely do need a pass before the next iteration of live, I call attention again to these:



    The comms variety (Gundzor and Burzgoth) have practically the same value as the vendor variety (salts and solvent). The Comms version should provide significantly more benefit than those you buy with a handful of silver. Ranked creeps sit at 15k comms almost permanently, because Comms earned far outweigh Comms spent - most players forego Gundzor and Burzgoth pots as there is little point in them anymore.

    Owing to the potency that freep CC has now reached (particularly spammable RK stones littering the battlefield), I feel a buff to consumables is now in order. Buffing the immunity duration of Comms pot - for a start - would make them useful and desirable again.

  16. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    Good idea. Although freeps do have access to cleansing skills more powerful than 1 or 2 effects, on considerably shorter CDs, and with Aoe skills removing effects from other players they extend to a much greater range than Slick Flesh for example (10m). The above list is perhaps underpowered in some sense, but augmenting redundant Skills is a far better suggestion in my opinion than simply buffing potions. Kudos from me for that.

    But regarding potions that definitely do need a pass before the next iteration of live, I call attention again to these:



    The comms variety (Gundzor and Burzgoth) have practically the same value as the vendor variety (salts and solvent). The Comms version should provide significantly more benefit than those you buy with a handful of silver. Ranked creeps sit at 15k comms almost permanently, because Comms earned far outweigh Comms spent - most players forego Gundzor and Burzgoth pots as there is little point in them anymore.

    Owing to the potency that freep CC has now reached (particularly spammable RK stones littering the battlefield), I feel a buff to consumables is now in order. Buffing the immunity duration of Comms pot - for a start - would make them useful and desirable again.
    I would argue that creepside cleanses should not be freepside OP, in the hope that someday they nerf freepside cures and then there is more reasonable balance. Do not counter something absurd with something else absurd.
    Adapting R12 Reaver, Warleader r9 Warleader on Ark Everlastingyawn r9 Defiler Landy Backpedal r9 Warg Brandy
    Arantoth R10 Champion on Ark Elezmera-3 R11 Ministrel on Ark
    Officer of Prime Evil

  17. #342
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,394
    Just chiming in here to balance the argument somewhat...

    - Freeps have far better clears (because creeps have effectively none), that is indisputable

    - Freep clears are nowhere near as good as some here would have you believe, particularly because many of these clears have downsides to using them i.e. being rooted in place, huge power costs per use etc.

    - Some classes simply haven't got with the times, and have not received the quality of life changes others have, Guardian is absurd and can cure a ridiculous no. of effects, Champion cleanse has a 45 second cooldown and clears ONE...

    - Creepside has far better access to debuffs (and some stackable) that are crippling if left unchecked, many on tiny cooldowns. Disarm, Silence spring to mind, these are wildly overpowered for what they do (Silence less-so in the presence of a Captain), disarm especially. No other debuff on a 20 second CD (with no Diminishing Returns at all) can completely grey out an opponents skill-bar, and in many cases their cure skill (lol).

    I implore any creep suggesting that freeps can cure any and every debuff to try small grouping for a while, I guarantee you that before you get zerged 2mins into the fight by Aghluk mapping in with a 24man, you'll have 4 rows of debuffs/dots on you, some of which give you two-second skill delays with 200% uptime, or grey your entire bar with 25% (at worst) uptime. It is un-fun to say the least.

    How I suggest fixing it:
    Add a cure skill (no repurposing, creeps do not need further rotational simplification) to every creep class that cures two debuffs on a 30 second CD. This combined with the usual cure potions should be balanced, given the imbalance between the no. of debuffs given to each side.

    Additionally, Spider DAMAGE effects should no long be potable, it's ridiculous that a class that deals solely damage over time can have its damage totally nullified simply by using potions. The same goes for Wardens, no DOT based class should be negated by potions. It's like a Champ or a Warg fighting an opponent that has 100% mitigations when they click a cure.

    Just my two cents. I don't want debuffs on either side to be totally irrelevant, but as a Freep I am completely bored of drowning in debuffs that despite my "OP" cures, I can't cure the critical ones like Disarm, Silence or +Induction modifiers. This is most frustrating on RK which despite an excellent cure, is absolutely crippled into oblivion by repeated Silence and Disarm effects.
    #15skills

  18. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Filnor View Post
    all the monsterplayers want to be able to leave the moors.
    No, we don't.

    The only people who keep bringing this up year after year are griefers who want to gank level 6's just coming out of the intro with their level 130 creeps.

  19. #344
    Lots of the changes discused here looks good. Dont know if moral buff in combo with B/P/E buffs are a good idea tho. We'll see when patch hits live.

    Still there is something that bothers me. For years creeps were punchingbag for the freeps and this will change for sure with the next update. There are a few things which just didnt make sense at all and was broken like steadfast and traps of BA. Since creeps are now getting in shape we should consider to change some aspects that didnt age very well. Creeps wont like this and still here we go:

    - Remove Mapping to Lug/TR/TA and so on and riding from the moors.
    - All classes (freeps and creeps) should have an out of combat move boost. Maybe 20% - 30%

    The main reason for remove mounts from the moors and give all classes more ooc movement speed is the fact that mapping is a broken mechanic. Mapping should only be allowed back to Gram/GV and not to several points of the map. In SOA creeps didnt have any speed buff so ppl could understand why this mechanic was implemented. After creeps getting 25% march buff the maps became a broken mechanic that craids can use to land quick flanks or quick incs.

    Freeps may have mounts, but freeps can never reach points of the map as quickly as a creep with his map can. So simply remove mapping (except GV/Grams) and mounting. Give any Freep the ability in the moors to move 25% like the creeps can.

    This is something that should be considered in the further updates.

    Just my 2 cents.

  20. #345
    Hello everyone, I am a Russian user, and I will use the translator, if it is not clear, then forgive me =)

    I started my journey to Lotro due to the possibility of playing for the Spider, and immediately created this hero without going through the main plot of The Lord of the Rings. My path began on Ettenmoors, and continues to this day, playing for Freeps is not interesting to me, and for me, as a person who plays only on Ettenmoors, I want to say one thing - there is no need to introduce the possibility for Creeps to pass to Ettenmoors via VIP, I will explain why.

    - Not because I only play on Ettenmoors.
    - We are deprived of content a priori.
    - We are imprisoned in one small location that we see every single day.
    - If changes concern us, then they are negligible, once a year we can observe some innovations on ettenmoors.
    - The development of Creep on Ettens is very long and painful, especially for a beginner to pay VIP.

    Everything is logical, VIP was not introduced for Creeps for these reasons, so I propose to leave everything as it is on this issue.
    And as for the VIP subscription, I want to touch on the Frips too, it will sound strong, but I would like the Free Peoples to also have the opportunity to fight on Ettens without a VIP subscription.
    Freeps already overcome a long way to get there, leveling, clothing, ability to fight, and then they also sharpen them in VIP. It's a pity that I see the same personalities on Ettens, and then it will be so as long as there are such restrictions, I want it to be like it used to be back in 2010, when there was someone to fight with, so that the whole map was dangerous, in each the grass was in danger and it tempered the atmosphere!

    As for Orc camps and elf camps I also support this idea, because of their old location there were great wars, there was comfort and they were located in really beautiful places, on both sides of the TA bridges.
    Now these are two empty camps without character and fighting, boring.

    I can't say anything about the Monster players in general, I can only speak about the Spider I'm playing for.
    1 - I beg, I beg on my knees, may the forces of Galadriel come with you, remove the long cast of all spitting and kisses from the Spider, so that during the fight I at least have time to impose everything, I just die faster while I do it all.
    2- In addition to the question of spell casts, between each pronunciation of spitting and spells there is an internal cooldown, which is also annoying, it would seem that the next spell he should have cast a long time ago, but no, the Spider is waiting for something incomprehensible, everything is very long and brakes.
    3 - Someone already talked about this, but I will remind you - Remove the ability to so easily get rid of debuffs with cobwebs, I have to update the debuffs every time, which are already cast for 100 years. I still understand the poison, but only Freeps can so easily get rid of "web" debuffs, and without that inflicting huge damage even with Debuffs.
    4 - Well, of course, Give the brood a spider more fighting spirit, he dies with 1 caste of a minstrel or ... yes anyone.
    5 - fix Drink Deep, it restores too little HP.

    Thank you for your attention, may Vlasti read my lines, Galadriel, do not break your promise.

  21. #346
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Detroit, MI
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by HYBERIAS View Post
    Lots of the changes discused here looks good. Dont know if moral buff in combo with B/P/E buffs are a good idea tho. We'll see when patch hits live.

    Still there is something that bothers me. For years creeps were punchingbag for the freeps and this will change for sure with the next update. There are a few things which just didnt make sense at all and was broken like steadfast and traps of BA. Since creeps are now getting in shape we should consider to change some aspects that didnt age very well. Creeps wont like this and still here we go:

    - Remove Mapping to Lug/TR/TA and so on and riding from the moors.
    - All classes (freeps and creeps) should have an out of combat move boost. Maybe 20% - 30%

    The main reason for remove mounts from the moors and give all classes more ooc movement speed is the fact that mapping is a broken mechanic. Mapping should only be allowed back to Gram/GV and not to several points of the map. In SOA creeps didnt have any speed buff so ppl could understand why this mechanic was implemented. After creeps getting 25% march buff the maps became a broken mechanic that craids can use to land quick flanks or quick incs.

    Freeps may have mounts, but freeps can never reach points of the map as quickly as a creep with his map can. So simply remove mapping (except GV/Grams) and mounting. Give any Freep the ability in the moors to move 25% like the creeps can.

    This is something that should be considered in the further updates.

    Just my 2 cents.
    As someone who plays both sides, I would argue a couple different points. If you limit the movement of either side you end up with less fights because it takes people a long time to get anywhere. This is against the main purpose of the moors, which is to have fights. Second, is you then must have different strategies in terms of where you fights for both sides. As a freep you do not want to fight on a map in point unless you are prepared to handle a massive wave of creeps mapping in. As a creep you do not want to fight close to a rez because freeps can quickly get back to a fight with their horses. In the large scale of things I do not see this as much of a problem. The main problem is zerging and that it is too rewarding. You should not get 30-40 glory points just because you heal tagged one person who hit the freep/creep who died, and you should not also get many points if you did basically no damage. The way infamy and renown gains are currently rewarded promotes zerging because you can be in a 24 man and still get 30 inf/renown per kill. If they decreased these gains for group sizes larger than 12, people would be a lot more hesitant to instantly get into the zerg.
    Adapting R12 Reaver, Warleader r9 Warleader on Ark Everlastingyawn r9 Defiler Landy Backpedal r9 Warg Brandy
    Arantoth R10 Champion on Ark Elezmera-3 R11 Ministrel on Ark
    Officer of Prime Evil

  22. #347
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by ConsistantRager View Post
    The main problem is zerging and that it is too rewarding. You should not get 30-40 glory points just because you heal tagged one person who hit the freep/creep who died, and you should not also get many points if you did basically no damage. The way infamy and renown gains are currently rewarded promotes zerging because you can be in a 24 man and still get 30 inf/renown per kill. If they decreased these gains for group sizes larger than 12, people would be a lot more hesitant to instantly get into the zerg.
    Exactly. Daenirion posted some old patch notes earlier from RoR where point gains got explained. As this has been one of the last major patches for PvMP I think it's safe to say these distributions are still in place as of today.

    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Upd...nk_Multipliers



    So regardless of group size or total contributors to a kill, you are guaranteed to get 10% of the total points. So there's absolutely no downside (point wise) rolling with 24 instead of 12 while at the same time a 24 man would also pretty much guarantee a win.
    Looking at the patch notes, being in a 6 man would net you 15% of the points while a 24 man would still award 10%. Seems kinda backwards to me.

    Since the moors is all about ranks for the majority of the population, there's absolutely no reason to run with anything lower than 24 right now, when strictly speaking about points.
    Zerging with a large group has no penalty while at the same time a 6 man would see fairly similar point gains per kill while having to put much more effort in a fight and seeing less kills in total during fights.


    While I think a system that takes your total contribution in a fight into account would be the best solution. I don't think it's viable looking at current development capacity for PvMP.
    I'd also like to see heal tagging be removed and the 80m range to return. But I guess that's a pipe dream as well.

    I think removing this 10% baseline and distributing the total points equally over all participants would be the go to solution as easy fix.
    This would mean you can get a single point (or maybe even zero) for a kill in a raid, but I think it would incentivize smaller groups and more spread out action.
    Overlord Urundus
    Cohorts of the Red Legion
    Arkenstone

  23. #348
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    421

    Oh my

    As much as it kills me I have to state in defence of karunax that Hunter slow does indeed not get potted if you apply it twice. I witnessed it on his stream via discord so yeah qq sad story bro.

    This isnt to say we dont deserve the slow but only to highlight that a bug does occur when you apply quick shot twice I imagine easy coding fix,

  24. #349
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    672
    Quote Originally Posted by Urundus View Post
    Exactly. Daenirion posted some old patch notes earlier from RoR where point gains got explained. As this has been one of the last major patches for PvMP I think it's safe to say these distributions are still in place as of today.

    https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Upd...nk_Multipliers



    So regardless of group size or total contributors to a kill, you are guaranteed to get 10% of the total points. So there's absolutely no downside (point wise) rolling with 24 instead of 12 while at the same time a 24 man would also pretty much guarantee a win.
    Looking at the patch notes, being in a 6 man would net you 15% of the points while a 24 man would still award 10%. Seems kinda backwards to me.

    Since the moors is all about ranks for the majority of the population, there's absolutely no reason to run with anything lower than 24 right now, when strictly speaking about points.
    Zerging with a large group has no penalty while at the same time a 6 man would see fairly similar point gains per kill while having to put much more effort in a fight and seeing less kills in total during fights.


    While I think a system that takes your total contribution in a fight into account would be the best solution. I don't think it's viable looking at current development capacity for PvMP.
    I'd also like to see heal tagging be removed and the 80m range to return. But I guess that's a pipe dream as well.

    I think removing this 10% baseline and distributing the total points equally over all participants would be the go to solution as easy fix.
    This would mean you can get a single point (or maybe even zero) for a kill in a raid, but I think it would incentivize smaller groups and more spread out action.
    I think this could work and would be decent, but allowing unlimited divisions would be a real pain in the butt as a Creep raid leader because it would nuke raiding infamy gain to nothing due to gold-tags and the Creep horde following your raid around or mapping in to wherever the fight is. But then again it's not a bad idea, as if Creeps are balanced well against Freeps and don't need more numbers to have a good fight then your changes literally would making zerging unprofitable which is a good thing in my opinion. Making zerging pointless would also hopefully reverse the trend of the toxic zerg-culture that is going on, and make it pointless for multiboxers and others to follow a full Creep raid around. There's a lot of raid zerg-babies who have an absolutely toxic attitude towards PvMP where if they lose a fight their solution isn't to learn more about their class, use their skills/classes more effectively, think of new strategies or try new things, etc. No, instead their solution is to just get more numbers, call the fight out and have the entire server map in to a laggy, unplayable and boring mess of a fight that usually ends in a lagged out stalemate and (sometimes) crashes the server entirely.

    With that all said, here is another, alternative solution which is a bit less extreme than what Urundus has suggested but which will still drastically improve the PvMP culture by incentivising solo/small group action more:

    Step 1. Remove the Delving and Keep Infamy/Renown boost buffs.
    Step 2. Normalise player rating to how it used to be: so average and starting rating is 1000. As you get kills your rating increases, when you die it decreases. As you approach 2000 rating, it increases more slowly and drops more quickly. As you approach 0 rating, it increases more quickly and drops more slowly.
    Step 3. Set Infamy/Renown value as follows: at 2000 rating you are worth 500 infamy/renown, at 1000 rating you are worth 300 infamy/renown, at 0 rating you are worth 100 infamy/renown.
    Step 4. Set Infamy/Renown to be divided equally amongst contributors up to a maximum of 36 divisions.
    Step 5. Round Infamy/Renown gain up if the decimal value is .5 and above, and round down if it is below .5.
    Step 6. Reimplement the requirement that you be in 80m of a kill to get credit for it (seriously why was this ever changed?).
    Step 7. Remove quests giving Infamy/Renown, or otherwise flip the Infamy/Renown and Commendation values in the quest rewards (so quests give what they currently give in Commendations as Infamy/Renown instead, and what they currently give in Infamy/Renown as Commendations instead - excluding those quests which already only give Commendations).

    This will incentivise soloing and small group action without making RvR totally unprofitable and worthless (particularly if the balance is such that Creeps need more numbers than Freeps to win, which is usually the case - though it doesn't have to be necessarily if they buff Creeps and give Freeps good and mandatory PvMP armour/jewellery).

    What this would mean in practise is if someone with 1000 rating is killed by:
    - 1 other player, that player will receive 300 infamy/renown.
    - 2 other players: 150 infamy/renown each.
    - 3 other players: 100 infamy/renown each.
    - 6 other players: 50 infamy/renown each.
    - 12 other players: 25 infamy/renown each.
    - 24 other players: 13 infamy/renown each.
    - 30 other players: 10 infamy/renown each.
    - 36 or more other players: 8 infamy/renown each.

    This would be a good change and would encourage smaller groups, however unlike Urundus' suggestion it won't totally eliminate zerging because there will always be that minimum amount of infamy you can gain so bear that in mind.
    Last edited by ChaChaLoco; Nov 25 2020 at 10:51 AM.

    Cohorts of the Red Legion
    Vae Victis - Woe to the vanquished.
    Timidi mater non flet.

  25. #350
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    485
    Plenty of good suggestions. I'm certainly all in for changing [back] the rating system, which got totally broken somewhere along the way. It is worthless as a stat at present, as you can go from 2000 to 200 in a single death. It never used to work that way.

    And BIG yes too to restoring the credit for a kill range back to what it was. It would be a step towards forcing heal leaches out of safe zones and into make an honest living.

 

 
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