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Thread: Basic grammar!

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EruReborn View Post
    Notwithstanding the inability of millenials to ever check anything before they post it, I find some of the grammar in the recent expansion quite pathetic....

    Take, for example, this peach from "The Ill-Fated-Feast"....

    "I thank you for your advisement. I agree with some of which you speak, Wandalb."

    "Advisement"? Which language did you get that from, it's certainly not English. Try "advice".

    "I agree with some of which you speak" What? Clearly not written by a native-English speaker (why are you using such incompetents?). How about "I agree with some of what you say"?

    This is primary-school stuff and frankly, a disgrace.

    Seriously, is this what passes for "quality" at SSG?
    Damn dude, I don't usually make comments on people's posts. but seriously? You're wrong on every point. Geez.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoatMandible View Post
    cromulent.
    Any day that I learn a new word is good day.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoatMandible View Post
    "Advisement".

    It's a perfectly cromulent word.
    It helps to embiggen the importance of what the speaker has to say.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by EB64 View Post
    embiggen
    Another new word for me today! Thanks!
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaelan2 View Post
    The evidence in Tolkien's writing would be against this notion. His choice of language made use of archaic terminology as appropriate to the period of his world. He smoothly blended old and new, which made his stories readable but still maintained the medieval-like atmosphere of his story.
    His turn of phrase was mildly archaic for effect but he avoided usages which were outright obsolete. You won't catch him using 'advisement', he'd have said 'counsel'.

    The rule for LOTRO's content team was Tolkien's style first, British English second.
    The -ize endings he used *are* British English because often either will do and it's a matter of preference, unlike in American English.

    the second line is okay
    Looks to me like they were trying too hard.

  5. #30
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    I agree far more than most that spelling and grammar are important. In an official release from SSG they should meet minimum standards (which does not mean perfection we all mess up occasionally and we all miss errors rereading our own work.

    But words placed in a character's mouth may well have errors and misspellings just to make things more realistic - or in keeping with local jargon. Thus many Rohirrim seem to disgree on the proper pronunciation of the word Rohirrim. Nothing wrong with that.

  6. #31
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    Has the OP come back or has taken what they have learned here in this post under advisement?
    I founded the company of public toilets that you can read an online encyclopaedia whilst you are on it, but had to abort the project as all the domain names for Wikileaks had been taken. /Doh ;-p

  7. #32
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    I do believe the OP needs to have more of an immersion experience. I'd like to suggest to remove English, French and German altogether and make the languages in game Sindarin, Khuzdul and .... Shakespearian!
    'Ú-damdir.' Welcome to the Fourth Age of this World - The game breaking days.
    Palenen - Elendilmir - The royal gem of Arnor - "May you 'Jingle Jangle' into the West." <- This was even messed up too.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    His turn of phrase was mildly archaic for effect but he avoided usages which were outright obsolete. You won't catch him using 'advisement', he'd have said 'counsel'.
    He used quite a few archaic words and phrases throughout LOTR, but I agree he blended things well and did not go overboard.

    The -ize endings he used *are* British English because often either will do and it's a matter of preference, unlike in American English.
    With regard to the -ize ending, I agree. I only pointed it out because it was a bone of contention early on with a few British players saying it was an Americanism that didn't belong in LOTRO. It was then pointed out that Tolkien himself used it, therefore LOTRO uses it.

    Looks to me like they were trying too hard.
    Which is what I said, only a little more long-winded than you did:

    "the second line is okay, but might be a little too much effort to sound medieval. It's not wrong, but could have been done better."

    Side note: As a writer, editor, and avid LOTR reader, I would have flagged this one for revision. Again, it is technically not wrong--and therefore not worthy of the snipe in the OP--but it could definitely have been worded better.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by phaelan2 View Post
    The evidence in Tolkien's writing would be against this notion. His choice of language made use of archaic terminology as appropriate to the period of his world. He smoothly blended old and new, which made his stories readable but still maintained the medieval-like atmosphere of his story.

    This topic (and similar topics) have been discussed since the launch of LOTRO. One particular case that stood out was complaints about LOTRO's use of -xion (connexion vs connection) and -ize (recognize vs recognise) endings as not being true British English and therefore wrong. However, it was pointed out that LOTRO used those endings because Tolkien himself used them in his writing. The rule for LOTRO's content team was Tolkien's style first, British English second.

    As to the lines mentioned in the OP, the "advisement" line fits well with Tolkien's use of language; the second line is okay, but might be a little too much effort to sound medieval. It's not wrong, but could have been done better.

    Using entirely modern English in a LOTR or medieval fantasy game world would pretty much suck the immersion right out of it. Finding the right balance is the tricky part.

    I agree to a great extent, especially when you say that Tolkien "smoothly blended old and new, which made his stories readable but still maintained the medieval-like atmosphere of his story"- although, I think it depends on which "atmosphere" we are describing (I could easily imagine the Prancing Pony in Oxford, England as I would in the time of Chaucer, or Shakespeare's "Boar's Head tavern" for example- Butterbur certainly seems to have a predecessor in Falstaff!); I also find that, to be precise, it depends on which characters are associated with or use which particular forms of language.

    The Hobbits, for example, use a distinctly more Modern dialect of English even though they are presented as quasi-medieval characters, and I think that has more to do than mere readability reasons; the Hobbits are also the -youngest- comparatively to the other characters, and so it makes sense that they would use an arguably -younger- form of English. They are our window into the story, which is probably why so many readers forget that Hobbits are, in fact, quite different than Men / Humans, as their Modern diction certainly crafts a high level of relation between them and the reader for practical and narrative reasons.

    Compare with the Dunedain, who have longer memories, and with the High Elves, who would be as if a bunch of immortal people suddenly appeared in a hidden corner of Europe speaking Old High German. The older or longer lived a character is, the more likely that character will speak in an archaic form of English, and the older the character is, generally, the older their English will sound.

    Hence, many of the older poems are written in a more medieval texture (and Old English for the Rohirrim), whereas, say, the Hobbit drinking or bathing songs sound like they sprang straight out of a modern English pub! *chuckles*

    In short: I'd counsel to avoid the "grand, sweeping statements" on what Tolkien's style is; it's medieval in some places, modern in others, somewhere in between in others, and each different place Tolkien describes has its own kinds of word-craft creating their distinct atmospheres. This is why the Green Dragon Inn is quite different than Rivendell, which are both altogether different than the House of Tom Bombadil, which is very different from the lofty halls of Minas Tirith, and so on and so forth. His styles, plural, are contingent on what is happening in the narrative and what sorts of elements are there that play into the descriptions at particular moments in the text

    If anything, if I had to say, "which locale in Middle-earth is the most Modern," I'd have to say Bag End; it's the closest thing to a well-furnished, modern era home. It feels real for that reason. The way Bilbo talks, the way Frodo talks, the way Gandalf speaks with them in their way of speaking- all of that comes into play, even though Gandalf is really this super-Maia and Bilbo and Frodo are very, very innocent compared to humans- I am not saying that Hobbits are people or that Gandalf is human; I am saying that, in the way Tolkien tends to use more Modern diction with them, they are the characters that the modern reader can understand and, perhaps, relate to the most, their non-human characteristics not withstanding


    Now, when I see a line like:


    "I thank you for your advisement. I agree with some of which you speak, Wandalb."

    The drek! Not even a High Elf would speak that way, and a High Elf's diction is as archaic as you can get!


    "I thank you for your counsel. I agree with some of your wise words, Wandalb." That's better

    But then again: it still sounds................ erm. Would Balin have talked that way? I doubt it! I do not think Gimli sounded much like that either.

    I feel like it's an attempt to aim for an opposing extreme. So the films gave the wrong impression of Dwarves as sounding like swaggering Scots, Gimli especially, and this strikes me as the attempt to overcompensate for that by making Dwarves sound very archaic. That has merely flipped the problem on its head; it hasn't really solved anything.

    Would Book Gimli speak that way, or Book Gloin? That is the question!
    Last edited by Phantion; Oct 27 2020 at 02:18 AM.
    Phantion no longer has a character named Phantion in-game. He transferred to Landroval.

    .

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantion View Post
    The Hobbits, for example, use a distinctly more Modern dialect of English even though they are presented as quasi-medieval characters
    They're not quasi-medieval, though, that's the thing. They're quasi-Victorian country folk made small, and that's why they talk the way they do. Just look at their lifestyle.

    Bree should look and feel older, I think, but not too much given the way Barliman talks. Maybe vaguely Tudor in a 'Merrie England' sort of way.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantion View Post
    ...

    In short: I'd counsel to avoid the "grand, sweeping statements" on what Tolkien's style is; it's medieval in some places, modern in others, somewhere in between in others, and each different place Tolkien describes has its own kinds of word-craft creating their distinct atmospheres. This is why the Green Dragon Inn is quite different than Rivendell, which are both altogether different than the House of Tom Bombadil, which is very different from the lofty halls of Minas Tirith, and so on and so forth. His styles, plural, are contingent on what is happening in the narrative and what sorts of elements are there that play into the descriptions at particular moments in the text

    ...
    Agreed. My comment was a general statement, not intended to be an in-depth analysis. Admittedly, I haven't worn my Tolkien scholar's hat for a few years, so I'm working from memory.

 

 
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