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Thread: Basic grammar!

  1. #1

    Basic grammar!

    Notwithstanding the inability of millenials to ever check anything before they post it, I find some of the grammar in the recent expansion quite pathetic....

    Take, for example, this peach from "The Ill-Fated-Feast"....

    "I thank you for your advisement. I agree with some of which you speak, Wandalb."

    "Advisement"? Which language did you get that from, it's certainly not English. Try "advice".

    "I agree with some of which you speak" What? Clearly not written by a native-English speaker (why are you using such incompetents?). How about "I agree with some of what you say"?

    This is primary-school stuff and frankly, a disgrace.

    Seriously, is this what passes for "quality" at SSG?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by EruReborn View Post
    "Advisement"? Which language did you get that from, it's certainly not English. Try "advice".

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/advisement


    Might want to Google something before claiming words don't exist...
    Last edited by EB64; Oct 24 2020 at 12:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Cheered me up no endlydoodledo

  4. #4
    As already cleared up, "advisement" is a word, albeit a bit archaic - and that's exactly what they're going after here - they're representing parts of the story that takes place hundreds of years ago, and of course the manner in which people speak is a bit different, just to try and emulate that olden feeling.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by EruReborn View Post
    Notwithstanding the inability of millenials to ever check anything before they post it...
    Millennials*

  6. #6
    Lots of companies outsource/contract such tasks as graphic design or database/text entry outside of the EU/US for cost reasons. My last company had most of its R&D out of India when I left. Indian English is not usually convoluted but occasionally it can sound like that. I have also found some different sounding statements from China or SE Asia or E Europe that are from developers/documentation people in my many years of managing software R&D. Some of the tech manuals are hilarious from a US English standpoint. It's understandable and correct if not colloquial to US/W Europe.

    Why the complaint? It's not grammar but word usage IMHO. And almost certainly not US Boomer or millenial issues. Like, Ya Know. LOL.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JERH View Post
    Lots of companies outsource/contract such tasks as graphic design or database/text entry outside of the EU/US for cost reasons. My last company had most of its R&D out of India when I left. Indian English is not usually convoluted but occasionally it can sound like that. I have also found some different sounding statements from China or SE Asia or E Europe that are from developers/documentation people in my many years of managing software R&D. Some of the tech manuals are hilarious from a US English standpoint. It's understandable and correct if not colloquial to US/W Europe.

    Why the complaint? It's not grammar but word usage IMHO. And almost certainly not US Boomer or millenial issues. Like, Ya Know. LOL.
    There's nothing wrong with the grammar to begin with.
    I already explained the "advisement" part, and the other complaint is nothing more than the line trying to sound like "Old English" speak.
    Nothing to do with outsourcing.

  8. #8
    As Bernard Shaw said - German and Spanish are accessible to foreigners: English is not accessible even to Englishmen.

    There is a difference between speak and say, as well as between what and which. Some patterns, unfortunately, became grammatically correct nowdays.

  9. #9
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    Did I miss-understand, this is an npc in game? If it was something said by the Archivist I might take issue but every npc only has a few gestures and what they say and how they say it to bring "life" to their character and distinguish it from any other.

    Of course in another franchise, Yoda deliberately obtuse, he was. Height issues perhaps?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by EB64 View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the grammar to begin with.
    I already explained the "advisement" part, and the other complaint is nothing more than the line trying to sound like "Old English" speak.
    Nothing to do with outsourcing.
    This. They are not trying to write modern colloquial English in game. This is set in a medieval fantasy period; the English will have archaic phrasing on occasion by design. Nothing the OP posted is "bad grammar" in this context. Perhaps overplayed, but not incorrect.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by EruReborn View Post
    Notwithstanding the inability of millenials to ever check anything before they post it, I find some of the grammar in the recent expansion quite pathetic....

    ...

    Seriously, is this what passes for "quality" at SSG?
    This is muchly goofsome.

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  12. #12
    "Advisement".

    It's a perfectly cromulent word.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EruReborn View Post
    Notwithstanding the inability of millenials to ever check anything before they post it, I find some of the grammar in the recent expansion quite pathetic....


    Take, for example, this peach from "The Ill-Fated-Feast"....


    "I thank you for your advisement. I agree with some of which you speak, Wandalb."


    "Advisement"? Which language did you get that from, it's certainly not English. Try "advice".


    "I agree with some of which you speak" What? Clearly not written by a native-English speaker (why are you using such incompetents?). How about "I agree with some of what you say"?


    This is primary-school stuff and frankly, a disgrace.


    Seriously, is this what passes for "quality" at SSG?
    "Advisement" isn't bad grammar, it's just out-of-place in Tolkien's world. I have noticed a few such cases in the new expansion. Nothing as bad as you would see in other games, mind you. But a couple of things that stick out as anachronistic, e.g. ways of saying things that have only been popularized in the last twenty years.

    "I agree with some of which you speak" is also grammatically correct, although it's semantically mangled:
    Literally, it means
    "I agree with some of the things you are talking about."
    But what the author intended was
    "I agree with some of the things you are saying."

    I think this is a case of the message being butchered in the attempt to "Tolkeinize" the wording.

    Such errors are few and far between, though. No more prevalent than in a respected newspaper.
    Last edited by Thurallor; Oct 24 2020 at 05:06 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurallor View Post
    "Advisement" isn't bad grammar, it's just out-of-place in Tolkien's world. I have noticed a few such cases in the new expansion. Nothing as bad as you would see in other games, mind you. But a couple of things that stick out as anachronistic, e.g. ways of saying things that have only been popularized in the last twenty years.
    I think you need to recheck your source for this information. Advisement is very much IN place in Tolkien's world, as it is Middle English. Hardly just popularized in the last twenty years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starliteyes View Post
    I think you need to recheck your source for this information. Advisement is very much IN place in Tolkien's world, as it is Middle English. Hardly just popularized in the last twenty years.
    Granted, "advisement" has been part of our language almost as long as "advice", but anachronism isn't the only way in which words can be "out of place". I was thinking more about its current usage, which seems legalistic or pompous. (Although maybe not, in some regional dialects.)
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by EruReborn View Post
    Notwithstanding the inability of millenials to ever check anything before they post it, I find some of the grammar in the recent expansion quite pathetic....

    Take, for example, this peach from "The Ill-Fated-Feast"....

    "I thank you for your advisement. I agree with some of which you speak, Wandalb."

    "Advisement"? Which language did you get that from, it's certainly not English. Try "advice".

    "I agree with some of which you speak" What? Clearly not written by a native-English speaker (why are you using such incompetents?). How about "I agree with some of what you say"?

    This is primary-school stuff and frankly, a disgrace.

    Seriously, is this what passes for "quality" at SSG?

    You clearly have little insight in the science and history of language. You won't be tought that in primary school becasue these are archaic or very specific terms - yet still perfectly correct - used when trying to create a certain atmosphere in games or movies, or just old texts.

    I wonder what you will complain about once you hear Mordirith speak, or rather read...
    The Elruthrim Brethren of Crickhollow
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurallor View Post
    Granted, "advisement" has been part of our language almost as long as "advice", but anachronism isn't the only way in which words can be "out of place". I was thinking more about its current usage, which seems legalistic or pompous. (Although maybe not, in some regional dialects.)
    Hmmm, curious how old you are... "Take it under advisement" is a very common phrase in my area/friends group, although often said sarcastically when presented with unwanted advice. But, it doesn't really matter what the current usage is, as the game is set in the past, where such language or meaning is not out of place.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by EruReborn View Post
    Notwithstanding the inability of millenials to ever check anything before they post it
    The irony of posting this while misspelling "millennial" and not bothering to check if the words you're complaining about actually exist or not

  19. #19
    Well I’m certainly glad the hobbit, lord of the rings trilogy, and silmarilion aren’t in Middle English. Here is a comparison example:

    “Check out this excerpt from part one of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in its original Middle English:

    And neuenes hit his aune nome, as hit now hat;
    Tirius to Tuskan and teldes bigynnes,
    Langaberde in Lumbardie lyftes vp homes,


    And here are the same lines in a modern English translation:

    And names it with his own name, which it now has;
    Tirius turns to Tuscany and founds dwellings;
    Longobard raises home in Lombardy;”

    The wording choices are more from Early Modern English as established by authors like Milton. Advisement is from the late 1500s where the transition to modern English spelling was taking place. Middle English is close to unrecognizable.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starliteyes View Post
    Hmmm, curious how old you are... "Take it under advisement" is a very common phrase in my area/friends group, although often said sarcastically when presented with unwanted advice.
    That's a set phrase, though, which I think originated in humorous reference to the legalistic/pompous usage.

    But, it doesn't really matter what the current usage is, as the game is set in the past, where such language or meaning is not out of place.
    It does matter, though, as the text is being read in the present day. Tolkien certainly would have taken modern word associations into consideration.
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  21. #21
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    The grammar in recent updates is fine at least from what i read from every quest and bit of text, some of the text uses old stuff we modern readers/writers don't use much anymore
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  22. #22
    Excellent thread. I'd like to see one by the OP pointing out the bad grammar used in books themselves. Tolkien could be taught a thing or two about proper use of language!

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurallor View Post
    It does matter, though, as the text is being read in the present day. Tolkien certainly would have taken modern word associations into consideration.
    The evidence in Tolkien's writing would be against this notion. His choice of language made use of archaic terminology as appropriate to the period of his world. He smoothly blended old and new, which made his stories readable but still maintained the medieval-like atmosphere of his story.

    This topic (and similar topics) have been discussed since the launch of LOTRO. One particular case that stood out was complaints about LOTRO's use of -xion (connexion vs connection) and -ize (recognize vs recognise) endings as not being true British English and therefore wrong. However, it was pointed out that LOTRO used those endings because Tolkien himself used them in his writing. The rule for LOTRO's content team was Tolkien's style first, British English second.

    As to the lines mentioned in the OP, the "advisement" line fits well with Tolkien's use of language; the second line is okay, but might be a little too much effort to sound medieval. It's not wrong, but could have been done better.

    Using entirely modern English in a LOTR or medieval fantasy game world would pretty much suck the immersion right out of it. Finding the right balance is the tricky part.

  24. #24
    Any expression of written thought that rejects modern norms of composition, instead embracing the more civilized, more thoughtful, more lucid constructions of earlier eras, receives my enthusiastic and jubilant support.

    Or, expressed in modern vernacular...

    lol
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  25. #25
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    Perhaps it represents that the speaker has an imperfect command of the Westron tongue which I tend to assume is the "language" that your toon uses as a default, and uses fluently. Being a Common Tongue (which is also not English of course) it will have some constructions that appear archaic or stilted to those more accustomed to the sentence construction and grammar of their native speech. Think if you will of the difference bwteen English and French. English does not, save by occasional inference, have gendered nouns. To a native French speaker with adequate but imperfect English, tranlating to English with a result of "The table, she is laden with foods of the most delicious types" would be perfectly rational, but to the native English speaker that sounds awkward, indeed one may even suspect a jest.

    Archaism of construction, grammar and words are used quite often in the game, usually when intereacting with Black Numenoreans and their associates, and indeed is what I think of as the speech iof a decent Englishman, according to my kinmates Gorothul and I sound very alike, I must assume therefore that we went to the same English public school and ergo, with a little straightening out, there's basically nothing wrong with him that can't be sorted out on the rugger field :-)

    Advanced users may care to investigate the tomfoolery of Monty Python and Not The Nine O'Clock News in exploiting this to humerous effect.

    But...

    If it was intended to be good solid Enbglish in a modern form then there may be a case to answer.
    Mithithil Ithryndi

 

 
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