We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18

    More physical features for player characters

    Over the years the physical features, hair styles, wrinkles, tattoos, etc of NPCs have outpaced the features of player characters. The NPCs look great! But maybe we can just give players access to a similar level of customization that developers have for NPCs?

    Would even love to have more things like tattoos for players or even adding more backgrounds (like Haradrim, Easterling, etc). Not entirely unlikely that some individuals from different cultures would be wandering around Middle Earth. I mean, we've already got hobbits all over Middle Earth (including Mordor) which canonically would be way less likely to happen.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    In Bree with the homies
    Posts
    1,104
    I would love this, but I doubt it will ever happen.


    I love the idea, but just don't see SSG doing it. I always see NPC outfits that make me drool that players will never get, so I get what you say about the tattoos and such.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    8,609
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinlul View Post
    Would even love to have more things like tattoos for players
    There aren't many of the Free Peoples from whom that might make sense. Just Northmen, basically.

    or even adding more backgrounds (like Haradrim, Easterling, etc). Not entirely unlikely that some individuals from different cultures would be wandering around Middle Earth.
    Hardly in the middle of a war when everyone knew that the Easterlings and Haradrim were actively serving Sauron, nor with the long history of them being decidedly Not Nice towards people in Rhovanion and Gondor. Like you could just wander around being all "oh hi, don't mind me, totally not a spy or anything".

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    There aren't many of the Free Peoples from whom that might make sense. Just Northmen, basically.


    Hardly in the middle of a war when everyone knew that the Easterlings and Haradrim were actively serving Sauron, nor with the long history of them being decidedly Not Nice towards people in Rhovanion and Gondor. Like you could just wander around being all "oh hi, don't mind me, totally not a spy or anything".
    Go make a post complaining about painting the Dunlendings in a sympathetic light or having thousands of hobbits in Gondor and Mordor.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    8,609
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinlul View Post
    Go make a post complaining about painting the Dunlendings in a sympathetic light or having thousands of hobbits in Gondor and Mordor.
    Even in the book, the Dunlendings are treated sympathetically for having been fooled by Saruman and they and the Rohirrim settled their centuries-old feud after the war. So there was no further trouble on that account (and they hadn't had a beef with anyone but the Rohirrim to begin with), whereas off in the East and South there were still plenty of people who harboured ill-will towards the West and we know Aragorn and Eomer had to go fight them, repeatedly, and that carried on until Eomer grew old. So that didn't get resolved any time soon. Way to not compare like with like.

    So yeah, let's ignore more than a thousand years of Easterling aggression towards Rhovanion and Gondor and how the Haradrim had never, ever been friendly towards the Gondorians even at the best of times and pretend everyone's best buddies and just wanders about all over the place. Totally not as if there'd been an evil power spreading endless lies and hatred or anything like that...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    In Bree with the homies
    Posts
    1,104
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Even in the book, the Dunlendings are treated sympathetically for having been fooled by Saruman
    Where is it said that? I'm not doubting you at all, I'm just trying to place exactly where in the books that was said. In the appendix somewhere?
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Somerville, MA, USA
    Posts
    1,121
    +100 always.

    I want all the NPC hairstyles as options. MOAR FACES.

    Even better, there are a lot of more modern PC customization systems out there that I'd hope could be adapted in a fairly rote way. Picking an entire face is circa year 2000. We should be able to mix and match facial features with a lot more dramatic variations. A lot of our current options are hard to distinguish from each other.

    I love designing characters enough that I have several toons at any given time that I've never played. Don't underestimate the appeal of designing faces.
    On Crickhollow: Wenslydale (Hobbit Burglar), Leolwyn (Woman Hunter)
    On Anor, Mithril League: Ardith (Woman Captain)
    Learning to raid on Anor https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...League-Kinship

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    8,609
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidmeetHal View Post
    Where is it said that? I'm not doubting you at all, I'm just trying to place exactly where in the books that was said. In the appendix somewhere?
    It's in the book itself:

    'Help now to repair the evil in which you have joined,' said Erkenbrand;
    'and afterwards you shall take an oath never again to pass the Fords of Isen
    in arms, nor to march with the enemies of Men; and then you shall go free back
    to your land. For you have been deluded by Saruman. Many of you have got death
    as the reward of your trust in him; but had you conquered, little better would
    your wages have been.'

    The men of Dunland were amazed, for Saruman had told them that the men of
    Rohan were cruel and burned their captives alive.

    - The Two Towers, 'The Road to Isengard'

    So basically letting bygones be bygones as long as they'd swear to never do anything like that again, and considering what they'd done that was mercy indeed.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    In Bree with the homies
    Posts
    1,104
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It's in the book itself:

    'Help now to repair the evil in which you have joined,' said Erkenbrand;
    'and afterwards you shall take an oath never again to pass the Fords of Isen
    in arms, nor to march with the enemies of Men; and then you shall go free back
    to your land. For you have been deluded by Saruman. Many of you have got death
    as the reward of your trust in him; but had you conquered, little better would
    your wages have been.'

    The men of Dunland were amazed, for Saruman had told them that the men of
    Rohan were cruel and burned their captives alive.

    - The Two Towers, 'The Road to Isengard'

    So basically letting bygones be bygones as long as they'd swear to never do anything like that again, and considering what they'd done that was mercy indeed.
    Oh that's right after Erkenbrand arrived at Helm's Deep! I remember now, thanks!
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,959
    In general: We could have a lot more physical features that do not even bring up the discussion about what population group is "allowed to exist" in middle earth. More beards, more hairstyles, more face variations.

    There are sufficient ways to explain the appearance of other physical features in Middle Earth, but it would need explanations and in some cases separate quest lines to fit it to lore. People from the east could have left during or before the war (see Lhaereth storyline) and live as refugees in Middle Earth. They would be subject to prejudice and opposition for sure, but this is something that could be a part of their background and questing story (example: start with reputation level "enemy"/"outsider" at every faction). The problem is that noone will go back and touch the old content to fit them in. We already got problems to have matching *rewards* for newly introduced classes.
    With that we would end up having them in the game without any explanation and separate RPG like all other characters. I would like a roleplayed idea, but not this one.
    (at some time there was the idea of classes/chars that could directly start at higher levels. Well, we might go to the East eventually. This could be the time).

    The main issue I see is nevertheless a different one: The way they did the character model revamp points out that it is not so easy to get more features into the engine. The client seems to be able to load feature sets, but not more than one of them in parallel. The engine seems to be limited somehow and the effort to change that was bigger than the one they wanted to spend.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    8,609
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    In general: We could have a lot more physical features that do not even bring up the discussion about what population group is "allowed to exist" in middle earth.
    What's with that "allowed to exist" line? It's simply a matter of who we're playing as. Just because people exist doesn't mean they should be playable, we've already got various peoples who aren't playable for good reason. The best reason of all is that we're playing the role of the Free Peoples, not random Men and the content assumes that.

    People from the east could have left during or before the war
    Sauron's iron grip over the East and South didn't start when the war did, there was a ton of history to it. People couldn't simply 'leave' the east if the people in the West would look on any Easterling with grave suspicion at best (because they could very easily be working for Sauron) and open hostility at worst (Northmen and Gondorians in particular had no love at all for Easterlings). To have it make sense, a would-be Easterling character really would need to start off at high level, ideally in an expansion set in the East - after the war, with Sauron out of the way, it'd be reasonable for people's attitudes to start to change (there'd likely be a distinction drawn between Easterlings who weren't so bad once you got to know them and those who were still hostile) but not before or during it.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Sauron's iron grip over the East and South didn't start when the war did, there was a ton of history to it. People couldn't simply 'leave' the east if the people in the West would look on any Easterling with grave suspicion at best (because they could very easily be working for Sauron) and open hostility at worst (Northmen and Gondorians in particular had no love at all for Easterlings).
    Hmm. Please spell out what you mean by "suspicion" and "hostility". Would they kill any Easterling at first sight? Or would prejudice and opposition be the outcome? This could also end up in fights, but does not have to.
    You wrote the possibilities by yourself:
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    (there'd likely be a distinction drawn between Easterlings who weren't so bad once you got to know them and those who were still hostile) but not before or during it.
    Your choice seems to be that all Easterlings are the same as orcs as long as Sauron is alive, but this is not in Tolkiens books. In fact the story of the blue wizards is open to the idea that their global mission failed, but this could still mean they had limited success. (in fact Tolkien himself is contradictive here). The motivations for serving Sauron could be multifold and fear could be one of them. Well, people with fear might not only obey, some of them might try to get away.

    My opinion is that we could build explanations and the game has already provided the base for it. But this does not mean that we should, simply because it would be a lot of work to add them to the game. This work would not be done, so we would have an unexplained existence without consequences. I wouldn't like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    To have it make sense, a would-be Easterling character really would need to start off at high level, ideally in an expansion set in the East - after the war, with Sauron out of the way, it'd be reasonable for people's attitudes to start to change (there'd likely be a distinction drawn between Easterlings who weren't so bad once you got to know them and those who were still hostile) but not before or during it.
    I wrote that in my post above. The only difference is that I see a chance for the distinction beforehand, but it would e.g. be needed for any reputation faction in this game. This is too much work, therefore it could only work with a high level start.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    8,609
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    Hmm. Please spell out what you mean by "suspicion" and "hostility". Would they kill any Easterling at first sight? Or would prejudice and opposition be the outcome?
    The point was that the Free Peoples would find it hard to trust any Easterling (or Haradrim, for that matter) up to and during the war because they could very easily be spies or assassins. They couldn't afford to be casually trusting in a situation like that, because if they were then you can bet Sauron would exploit it. So nobody would be likely to welcome Easterlings with open arms, and they might drive them away or intern them for the duration of the war.

    Your choice seems to be that all Easterlings are the same as orcs as long as Sauron is alive
    I don't know where you got that from. Nope. Just that they're on the wrong side and that it's portrayed as a stark divide between the Free Peoples and everyone else, because Sauron had done his best to make it that way. That could only begin to change once he was out of the way. (Oh, and don't forget the long history of Easterling peoples sweeping out of the east and causing bloody mayhem - you can bet the Northmen and Gondorians wouldn't have, and that would hardly engender trust either).

    Yes, there;s the vague idea of some sort of resistance movement somewhere out in the distant east. If that were featured in an expansion as a rationale for an Easterling character (a 'nice' Easterling who could help fight the remaining 'nasty' ones) that would be fine. It doesn't really help otherwise because even apparently 'nice' Easterlings would likely have got short shrift in the West if hey turned up unannounced before or during the war - how would they show their bona fides and prove their story was real?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The point was that the Free Peoples would find it hard to trust any Easterling (or Haradrim, for that matter) up to and during the war because they could very easily be spies or assassins. They couldn't afford to be casually trusting in a situation like that, because if they were then you can bet Sauron would exploit it. So nobody would be likely to welcome Easterlings with open arms, and they might drive them away or intern them for the duration of the war.


    I don't know where you got that from. Nope. Just that they're on the wrong side and that it's portrayed as a stark divide between the Free Peoples and everyone else, because Sauron had done his best to make it that way. That could only begin to change once he was out of the way. (Oh, and don't forget the long history of Easterling peoples sweeping out of the east and causing bloody mayhem - you can bet the Northmen and Gondorians wouldn't have, and that would hardly engender trust either).

    Yes, there;s the vague idea of some sort of resistance movement somewhere out in the distant east. If that were featured in an expansion as a rationale for an Easterling character (a 'nice' Easterling who could help fight the remaining 'nasty' ones) that would be fine. It doesn't really help otherwise because even apparently 'nice' Easterlings would likely have got short shrift in the West if hey turned up unannounced before or during the war - how would they show their bona fides and prove their story was real?
    Humans in Gondor and Rohan wouldn't trust elves, dwarves, or hobbits either yet here we are.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    8,609
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinlul View Post
    Humans in Gondor and Rohan wouldn't trust elves, dwarves, or hobbits either yet here we are.
    Yes, here we are playing the Free Peoples just like everyone expected. And don't generalise: nobody in Rohan or Gondor appeared to have anything against hobbits because to them they were just little people out of old tales, and I don't recall anything about the people of Gondor having anything against the Dwarves. Sure, Elves and hobbits should't really be playable for lore reasons but they were too popular not to be. There's never been much call for playing random Easterlings though, funnily enough so that's not much of a comparison.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Somerville, MA, USA
    Posts
    1,121
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    In general: We could have a lot more physical features that do not even bring up the discussion about what population group is "allowed to exist" in middle earth. More beards, more hairstyles, more face variations.
    Yeah, this issue about whether "enemy" ethnicities should be player options is completely tangential to what the OP was saying. More facial variation doesn't require anything to be done about the available PC origins. It doesn't even require more skintone options, which generated exactly the same argument.

    We don't need to add Haradrim PCs to get more nose shapes.
    On Crickhollow: Wenslydale (Hobbit Burglar), Leolwyn (Woman Hunter)
    On Anor, Mithril League: Ardith (Woman Captain)
    Learning to raid on Anor https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...League-Kinship

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The point was that the Free Peoples would find it hard to trust any Easterling (or Haradrim, for that matter) up to and during the war because they could very easily be spies or assassins. They couldn't afford to be casually trusting in a situation like that, because if they were then you can bet Sauron would exploit it. So nobody would be likely to welcome Easterlings with open arms, and they might drive them away or intern them for the duration of the war.
    And nothing more is what I meant. They wouldn't be welcome. They would be met with prejudice and opposition. They would e.g. start every reputation faction at "enemy" rather than "neutral". They might not get certain quests. They would need to earn the trust of NPCs by extra tasks. They would probably not be accepted in a township (e.g. blocked town services) until they know them better. All of this *could* be done theoretically and make it a realistic experience.
    Practically we will never see it, as it would require a complete revamp of the game that is simply too much work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    how would they show their bona fides and prove their story was real?
    The war had a long tradition and history, but having a look at Europe's medieval age we can see that trade used all times in between, but foreigners were always treated with suspicion - and in some cases violence. Still it does not say that all of them were killed nor put to prison. Proof happens over time and it is not always "go away or die".

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    2 Long Street, Corstead, Bree-land Homesteads, Crickhollow, Sweden
    Posts
    3,311
    how about your own face, add/remove scars-tatoos-pimples-hair...
    The Elruthrim Brethren of Crickhollow
    Malancil CHN, Historian Calchiar CPT, Explorer Sturmdrang WDN, Woodsman Anancite GRD, Armourer Tarostel HNT, Armsman Angredeth HNT, Tinker Dromarong GRD, Dwarf

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Marancil View Post
    how about your own face, add/remove scars-tatoos-pimples-hair...
    There might be people that might not upload their *face*....

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    8,609
    Quote Originally Posted by thinx View Post
    And nothing more is what I meant. They wouldn't be welcome. They would be met with prejudice and opposition. They would e.g. start every reputation faction at "enemy" rather than "neutral". They might not get certain quests. They would need to earn the trust of NPCs by extra tasks. They would probably not be accepted in a township (e.g. blocked town services) until they know them better. All of this *could* be done theoretically and make it a realistic experience.
    That was why I said all the older content would be a problem because that assumes a degree of trust that wouldn't be plausible for a character like that. Hence the need to start such a character after Sauron's downfall, if at all, when that whole business with the Ring is done and dusted.

    The war had a long tradition and history, but having a look at Europe's medieval age we can see that trade used all times in between, but foreigners were always treated with suspicion - and in some cases violence. Still it does not say that all of them were killed nor put to prison. Proof happens over time and it is not always "go away or die".
    It's rather more dramatic than that on account of Sauron; the Easterlings weren't just foreigners who might simply be mistrusted, they were enemies to the Free Peoples. Having an incarnate demonic power stirring things up and fostering deep divisions between peoples for his own purposes complicates things, so real-life comparisons aren't much use.

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload