We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 107
  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    That'd be testing player finesse vs mob avoidance. We'd want the reverse tested. There has definitely been points where the tier buffs have listed a type of penetration that never occurred.
    Finesse is now a universal stat and all NPCs and players (regardless of type) share the same numbers. But fine, I'll get around to it tomorrow.

    Edit: Not numbers, properties.

  2. #52
    I think Captain became meta tank not because of class was buffed, but because of stat system changes and content development, when developers didn't recognize impact of this changes. This system changes were: Reduced BPE cap from 25% down to 13%, changed stat curves for BPE and Incoming Healing, so it is almost impossible to reach stat caps, which clearly favours classes with plain % bonusses from their skills over classes with rating buffs. Vitality change from 3 to 4,5 for captain and champion, vitality change from 5 to 4,8 for Guardian, Warden and Beorning. Vitality stat slice is too high, Tactical Mitigation, BPE, IH, Critical Defence, Resistance stat slices are too low. Mobs and mainly bosses have too many unavoidable/ not resistable attack.

    And healing disparity between captain and warden happened because one class has properly implemented healing with all buffs from LI crystals and Tactical Healing runes, while other class don't have properly implemented healing and scale up only when level is raised, on top of that scaling formula is bad. Also morale taps scaling is somehow bad.

    Thats it, we can talk about utility and class balance, but survivability class balance have been messed by system and content changes.
    Last edited by Krindel; Sep 27 2020 at 08:36 AM.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master, Gislin - Burglar

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    The numbers are there to showcase what each class does and does not have. If a class appears overpowered based on the information listed in the OP...odds are it probably is?
    Eh no that's not the definition of overpowered, you define overpowered because of comparison to other classes. Like I've stated, stop doing that.

    Overpowered means that the captain is able to complete content without much struggle or needing to use cooldowns or a healer.
    From what we see now is that content fully favors a captain because bosses do big hits so now and then and once they go past a certain level due to their buffs or corruption, a captain is required to burn cooldowns.
    Many of their hits are big chunks of morale that mitigation cannot affect much, as we see with shelob, difference in 50 to 60% mit isnt too big as to older days, 50 and 60% mit meant a huge difference. Now however, vitality essences simply outweigh mitigation essences past a certain point. As a captain, I decided to drop 1.1% mitigation on essences for 70k more morale. Since morale favors me more, the trade is obviously a lot more efficient. Though with taking big hits, you require a lot of heals too.

    Guardians would shine more if their (p)bpe system did stay intact. They have more defenses and so a single point of morale would cost a lot more in comparison to that of a captain. This means that 80k heals from a healer into the pool of a proper working guardian would allow them to endure much longer, as to where a captain always soaks up a lot of heals and equally loses a lot of its morale again. Captains are meant to be more unstable than wardens and guardians and have to relly more on cooldowns for this reason. Despite captains having the ability to amplify a lot of their inc healing, the trait ''turning point'' only starts building up if they get enough defeat events. Which requires A) a lot of targets and B) targets have to die. Option C) which would grant a captain a def event from (p)BPE is not as reliable because again, the system is not working as it should be.



    This means that ''turning point'' only stacks up to full potential if circumstances are right.



    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    ...I still main Captain. I mean I used to also play Beorning/Guardian tanks at a high end raid level but I'll admit I really hate the Beorning buffs and they put me off playing that class.
    Good, I main captain since Mirkwood, the first character that I created and I still play that as my only character (though I recently made a second captain). To me, the captain is certainly NOT overpowered, I'll explain down the line why.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Wardens got buffed durations on gambit buffs, increased baseline mitigations and a passive morale boost. They have been updated. Beornings got flat buffs to their defences as well. Guards are pretty much the only tanks that haven't changed much over the years but if you take the listed figures and compare them to Bears/Wardens/Champs they still come off being fairly good in comparison. Are you just ignoring the OP here? Because it does kinda point out that wardens can still reach the softcaps on BPE...
    Yes, and you think that by just buffing gambit duration and some stats it's enough? lmao
    Beorn's are new to the group, guards barely changed.

    You completely miss my point again, the only thing that ensures that a warden works properly is that IF the content allows them to take advantage of their strong points (pBPE) and they get fixed in terms of self-healing capability and other utility.

    Wardens being able to reach the softcap on BPE, congratulations, you've reach the softcap of something that is completely broken to the point that the numbers are nearly RNG. E.g. the tooltip states 30% pbpe chance -> but in reality in content its 7.7% pbpe chance. Doesn't ring a bell? Well, let me elaborate that partial BPE is also not affected by finesse, for some kind of odd reason, though BPE itself is. I've come to find this out during PvMP that finesse was not giving my captain any reliability on making sure I did score my hits for the 20% morale return.

    There's nothing OP(xcept LS heal) about the captain, the only reason the captain does perform so ridiculously well is all because the content and systems are in full favor of the class. Bosses having mechanics that avoid pBPE and BPE, PBPE system being a completely broken mess.

    Then the fact that even though they did work on the warden, the amount of work that they put in was me changing a few numbers in the trait panel took them like 1 hour to do change a few code numbers.

    They've not changed any utility, no changed their LIs, not changed any mechanics, not updated the ratings. Then you argue that the captain is OP with all of these added factors? lmao
    The only thing that is OP for the captain is the LS heal IMO. If we've had bosses that could be better countered with (p)BPE with a proper working BPE system, those classes would have been favored and not the captain. Because really, a self-healing warden with proper working (p)BPE system and being able to use his BPE would have outclassed the captain in tanking. Though they'll never outclass us in flexibility and being able to provide help in areas where no other class can. That's the point of being the jack of all trades, not being the best at anything, but able to help out in every area.

    Then the guardian, the class that got stripped of one of their main defenses. The guardian mainly uses pBPE as a first layer of defense, before the damage actually gets to them. Their cooldowns are heavily reliable on the pBPE except for WH.
    There's not much I can say tbh, fixing this class requires either making it more like captain by changing many things of its utility and adding more cooldowns, or SSG gets of their lazy ### and fix the BPE system so that the guardian is actually relevant again.


    The captain has been worked on already and they upscaled many heals and changed some of our cooldowns. This makes the captain a lot stronger than the other classes, but they are NOT OP. The reason they aren't is because the other classes are supposed to sit on that line of the captain. But they aren't because of all the factors.

    Content is biased towards morale buffer like the captain, which is not really a guardian and especially not the warden. The BPE rating cap is ridiculous, the BPE system is broken, the warden and guardian have barely had any workover. So does it finally sound logical to you that the captain shines? It's not because we are overpowered, it is because of those factors that I've now stated you 3 times without you understanding them. You still want to tell people that something is overpowered because its stronger than other classes, but that's not how it works m8. It's supposed to be the opposed way, warden and guardian should be on par with captain. But doing so demands a lot of work from SSG to fix all those points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    In that scenario from observing the OP we can roughly deduce that Wardens would exceed everyone in terms of physical damage mitigation (due to partial avoidance mits of around 40%) and Captains/Guardians would remain top in terms of tactical damage mitigation. The gap between Guards/Bears and captains wouldn't really change since the main difference between those classes is the effectiveness of their defensives and the need for their individual group support abilities (blue bear debuffs aren't needed if you have a yellow bear for example).
    The effectiveness AND the content, if the content is not suited for those classes in the first place, it's not the fault of the captain, but SSG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    The BPE system isn't particularly RNG related. If you cap partial % chance and step into an encounter where only avoidable attacks come your way you will mitigate every single one of those attacks (lot of testing happened back at U18 beta to prove that). The reason it doesn't particularly work now is the fact that SSG just like to ignore avoidance on most physical damage which renders it pointless.

    I've to disagree here, I've seen a lot of things that just dont fit. The changes to BPE were the following -> BPE itself no longer got stacked into avoidance % -> pBPE instead got the mechanics from BPE

    However, somehow or somewhere the mechanics on pBPE got bugged, I noticed it's not affected by finesse during moors combat. Having to fight creeps with a high pBPE made me go to 35% finesse at some point (when the changes were just released). I noticed that there was no changed to the chance on their pBPE. Though, the chance of BPE decreased significantly. PvMP does not follow PvE guidelines, but it does so for stats. To me view, the entire pBPE and BPE system are completely f*cked.

    Hence I'd call it RNG, but it's not particularly RNG, it's more a saying for me as defining how broken its mechanics is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    - Cdef was never that relevant since it softcapped out effectiveness at 50% reduction.
    - Incoming Healing is as relevant as it was before, slightly tougher to cap it from rating these days I guess.
    exactly, this is still the case for Cdef? I remember u needed quite a chunk of it for RCT2, what about it nowadays? Does anybody still care for the stat?

    Incoming healing isn't, it used to be significantly less difficult to fill in for custom tank builds. I'd enjoy the possibility of being able to let my creativity sink into my tank build and not play by the guidelines set by SSG. It bores me to death to build a morale buffer nowadays for my tanking. It's so extremely boring and I cannot fill anything else to boast my defensive stats effectively as morale.

    (p)BPE is broken, it doesn't work properly, content does not allow for it so no reason for me to get some of those stats.
    60% mits requires you to fill so much that the effectiveness of the tank will go down due to the ridiculous deminishing returns.
    Cdef is useless, nobody cares about that anymore except PvMP players
    Inc heal not worth it vs morale.
    Outg heal alrdy on effective standing as a captain, so no point pushing that further.


    It massively frustrates me to play something I so greatly despise, being a morale buffer build is something I deem as the most boring thing in a game. Partially the reason I hate yellow captain so much for it and I'm greateful that SSG gave me the option to tank in blue now.
    Last edited by Zaheer; Sep 27 2020 at 07:36 AM.
    WhiteGoliath

    Please leave me in my eternal slumber

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Overpowered means that the captain is able to complete content without much struggle or needing to use cooldowns or a healer.
    *Completes remmo t5 while afk on cappy*

    Yes captains are overpowered if you compare them to other classes but they are also overpowered in general, a class should not bring superb utility AND superb defensive ability at the same time. A well played captain is an invincible machine on any content atm. Nowadays it's not anymore about ''how well can a captain survive this?'' it's more about how far can you push a captain with red builds or tanking in red line, minimize healers etc. to maximize the group's strength. About how far can you handicap the captain down (for the group's benefit) untill he hits the limit of ''ohwow now it gets hard to tank''

    Now i know that's a standard thing in MMO's where the tanks have to tank with the bare minimum of tanking stats but that's not a lotro thing and it also shows you how insanely strong yellow line is, even to the point of not needing majority of the things on it or just straight up tanking in red or blue or a healer less. If you get to the point of ''how far can we handicap the tank down'' then that's a very clear indicator that tanking is way too easy. And i don't mean the usual raid stuff of ''ohwow this is a huge dps race can we afford a healer less maybe?'' No i mean a constant arms race of lowering the tanking ability, being completely sure of the survival and doing outstanding things like literally not even tank in the tanking line. Pushing the limits constantly for fun because it's so easy. We got captains here meme-ing tanking with the 4 piece red throne set for example, how much worse can it get lul.
    Last edited by HolyDuckTape; Sep 27 2020 at 08:04 AM.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Eh no that's not the definition of overpowered, you define overpowered because of comparison to other classes. Like I've stated, stop doing that.

    Overpowered means that the captain is able to complete content without much struggle or needing to use cooldowns or a healer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riza- View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    From what we see now is that content fully favors a captain because bosses do big hits so now and then and once they go past a certain level due to their buffs or corruption, a captain is required to burn cooldowns.
    Many of their hits are big chunks of morale that mitigation cannot affect much, as we see with shelob, difference in 50 to 60% mit isnt too big as to older days, 50 and 60% mit meant a huge difference. Now however, vitality essences simply outweigh mitigation essences past a certain point. As a captain, I decided to drop 1.1% mitigation on essences for 70k more morale. Since morale favors me more, the trade is obviously a lot more efficient. Though with taking big hits, you require a lot of heals too.
    Bear tanks operate on the same defensive principles as Captain i.e. Big morale pools and incoming healing buffs with potent self healing. Bear however is not favoured as Captain is, partially due to lack of incoming damage reductions and partly due to not having the support a Captain brings.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Guardians would shine more if their (p)bpe system did stay intact.
    Captains would also benefit from this change, Turning Point would once again be permanently capped. Right now Ward gives ~100k more rating than Sure Strike so it's not like Guardians are a mile ahead in ratings. You also overlook that whilst avoidances being functional would improve 2 Guardian CD's...Captains also have a CD that benefits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Then the guardian, the class that got stripped of one of their main defenses. The guardian mainly uses pBPE as a first layer of defense, before the damage actually gets to them. Their cooldowns are heavily reliable on the pBPE except for WH.
    Can confirm that at 105 when Guardians were king...most did not cap out partials, I was one of the few who did and I mainly did it because I was able to optimise the class to such a degree that I capped almost every single defensive stat whilst maintaining an unbuffed morale pool of 65k+. The average guard simply morale stacked. Partial avoidances were only really used to make tanking reinforcements in mumaks easier, they never had much bearing on bosses.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    I've to disagree here, I've seen a lot of things that just dont fit. The changes to BPE were the following -> BPE itself no longer got stacked into avoidance % -> pBPE instead got the mechanics from BPE
    That's not correct. BPE operates on a combined chance, i.e. if you have a combined total of 100% chance to B, P or E an attack, you will BPE that attack. Partials worked on the same system. This was tested in the previously linked post:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...lue-solo-on-T2


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Hence I'd call it RNG, but it's not particularly RNG, it's more a saying for me as defining how broken its mechanics is.
    Your lack of understand does not make it RNG, it was simply a case of finesse only reducing the value of full avoidance and ignoring partials.



    [QUOTE=Zaheer;8037706]
    exactly, this is still the case for Cdef? I remember u needed quite a chunk of it for RCT2, what about it nowadays? Does anybody still care for the stat?[/QUote[

    You did not need it over 50% for RC.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Partially the reason I hate yellow captain so much for it and I'm greateful that SSG gave me the option to tank in blue now.
    Well that's also problematic....
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDuckTape View Post
    *Completes remmo t5 while afk on cappy*

    Yes captains are overpowered if you compare them to other classes but they are also overpowered in general, a class should not bring superb utility AND superb defensive ability at the same time. A well played captain is an invincible machine on any content atm. Nowadays it's not anymore about ''how well can a captain survive this?'' it's more about how far can you push a captain with red builds or tanking in red line, minimize healers etc. to maximize the group's strength.
    they are also overpowered in general
    They aren't they're able to counter all raid mechanics simply because of their cooldowns. Like I've stated, captains burn cooldowns much more than any other class because their defenses aren't as strong as lets say a full proper working guardian or a warden (In case we would put them on 1 line)

    Nowadays it's not anymore about ''how well can a captain survive this?'' it's more about how far can you push a captain with red builds or tanking in red line, minimize healers etc.

    I disagree, during raids, there's certainly a moment where the captain is required to burn his cooldowns sooner(not current raid), but because the content is biased towards them, it's not as difficult. Captains do not build turning point to max potential when being hit by just 1 boss so that inc healing is already stripped away. Captains also do not have much to do with the BPE system as a whole, they're supposed to soak up the damage with their big pools and that requires a lot of healing as well. Like I've stated, if you've got more defense, it makes your morale count for more, in which case we could define it as effective morale. If Warden works as it did at 95, we could say that their effective morale is much greater than any class.

    On top of that, since they do not require an extra healer in 6man content, that place could be used for more DPS. In which case, it's the same right? Sacrifice a healer because the tank does have incredible self-sustainability. Don't talk like captains are not supposed to be in that role. Seen it happen enough times during raids as well that the warden tank got only 1 healer instead of 2, because of his self-sustainability.

    The argument of a captain being able to sacrifice a cooldown for more DPS comes with being the jack of all trades. I've seen guardian tanking in yellow too, increasing the dmg on target for the whole raid in the sacrifice of cooldowns.

    Tanking in red I cant see happen unless you'd kite in some form, but for actual raid fights on t5, I cannot see it happen unless you've got some form of kiting, which would be highly inefficient when you need to buff up.

    Then for lower tiers, I can actually see it happen, because they actually can due to being overgeared.



    As for how yellow is supposed to work, their threshold is supposed to be lower on what they can take in on damage because guards and wardens are supposed to be above that in terms of defensive stats. As to where captains are pure morale buffering with inc heal, which makes it a highly unstable tank if the content is not in their favor. E.g. let's say you'd properly scale a guard with his BPE working as it is supposed to be. They're able to take a lot more dmg before they're pushed into their limit and forced to use a cooldown. As to where the captain is supposed to be using them constantly. e.g. cycle yellow banner with to-arms.

    But obviously, if the content is fit for morale tanks, then the captain is put in a position that could be viewed as overpowered. Even redline does amplify morale quite significantly if used with yellow traits. I'm sure that if the content was less dumbfounded, captains would not have shined like this. Because really, the current way of playing content is :


    • fit enough mits to about 50%
    • slap on some morale

    and ur done kekw

    Just having a boss doing major burst dmg but a low APS, allows the captain to be in a good position.
    Boss 2 from House of Lamentation could be such an example, having decent dmg but not enough to push a captain into using cooldowns. Having 1 major spike dmg of like 400k isn't gonna do much if the other attacks are low af x)
    Last edited by Zaheer; Sep 27 2020 at 08:59 AM.
    WhiteGoliath

    Please leave me in my eternal slumber

  7. #57
    If we will talk about tank utility, we must not forget that if there is already yellow or red dps Warden in group, then there is no reason to invite blue Warden into the raid, because currently main warden utility skills are Marked/Diminished Target mitigation debuffs and these debuffs don't stack with debuffs from other warden, but instead they overwrite each other. Also weaker debuffs from blue warden will overwrite stronger debuffs from yellow warden. If there are 2 wardens in group, blue warden can add only fellowship induction buff and fellowship mitigation rating buff with low uptime and sadly this is not enough to get tank spot.
    I think same apply for Beorning tank, his debuffs don't stack with debuffs from healing Beorning too.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master, Gislin - Burglar

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post



    That's not correct. BPE operates on a combined chance, i.e. if you have a combined total of 100% chance to B, P or E an attack, you will BPE that attack. Partials worked on the same system. This was tested in the previously linked post:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...lue-solo-on-T2



    Your lack of understand does not make it RNG, it was simply a case of finesse only reducing the value of full avoidance and ignoring partials.


    Whilst Zonflux is an excellent source on Guardian 'tech', I note that that thread is from four years ago and I believe that what many people are saying (and the Devs acknowledge by saying that the system needs fixing) is that B/P/E doesn't work as advertised any more and that is what has largely caused the big fall-off in non-Captain Tanking?

    Not that I do any heavy-lifting tanking, as I dislike anything bigger than three-man instances, but I have followed this thread with interest. I am a little bemused as to what the motivation your stance is, other than a seemingly blood-boiling desire to argue with Zaheer :lol:. Surely the aim should be to raise up the other Tankable classes to cope with the content rather than pull down the one class that can handle it at the moment? What am I missing in your approach?

  9. #59
    replies with an riza video lmaoooo

    Shadowed king is such a perfect environment for a captain, only 1 spike hit (which is rlly only a threat to DPS) and that's it. All the other hits can easily be healed away.

    This is exactly what I imply with biased content, there's not nearly enough pressure on the tank.

    Seen a guardian solo tank it aswell btw, so that already should tell you something about the content.

    Me in red(without taunts), a guard, and a champ.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Bear tanks operate on the same defensive principles as Captain i.e. Big morale pools and incoming healing buffs with potent self healing. Bear however is not favoured as Captain is, partially due to lack of incoming damage reductions and partly due to not having the support a Captain brings.
    No idea about bear m8, I'm sure they've got something that captain doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Captains would also benefit from this change, Turning Point would once again be permanently capped. Right now Ward gives ~100k more rating than Sure Strike so it's not like Guardians are a mile ahead in ratings. You also overlook that whilst avoidances being functional would improve 2 Guardian CD's...Captains also have a CD that benefits.
    thats right, we would, but we are getting more benefit from stacking morale naturally. But I'd guess that I personally would go with more defensive stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Can confirm that at 105 when Guardians were king...most did not cap out partials, I was one of the few who did and I mainly did it because I was able to optimise the class to such a degree that I capped almost every single defensive stat whilst maintaining an unbuffed morale pool of 65k+. The average guard simply morale stacked. Partial avoidances were only really used to make tanking reinforcements in mumaks easier, they never had much bearing on bosses.
    Yes, so did a guardian friend of mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    That's not correct. BPE operates on a combined chance, i.e. if you have a combined total of 100% chance to B, P or E an attack, you will BPE that attack. Partials worked on the same system. This was tested in the previously linked post:
    It is, BPE no longer stacks as a combined chance, only pBPE does. You can look for the update notes I think about it, they wrote about it in a dev diary.






    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Your lack of understand does not make it RNG, it was simply a case of finesse only reducing the value of full avoidance and ignoring partials.
    That's no lack of understanding, that's knowing. I found out myself that due to partials, finesse had become worthless to me. It did not affect pBPE by my own testing. I found out myself when they changed the system but did not fully explain everything in details.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post

    You did not need it over 50% for RC.
    50% was quite a bit at the time, people atleast needed to have a bit of cdef slotted due to the armor sets being 5 slots. Which means that Cdef was important to some extend.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Well that's also problematic....
    It isn't, if ur having only 1 st taunt


    I'm an individual who likes to question everything and put everything to the test, though I must say I do not look too much into numbers, I tend to zoom out more and see what my options are. This allows me to get creative with my builds.
    Last edited by Zaheer; Sep 27 2020 at 09:50 AM.
    WhiteGoliath

    Please leave me in my eternal slumber

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Helwryeth View Post
    What am I missing in your approach?
    Mostly the knowledge that outside of Remm t4/5 all the other tanks are perfectly capable of completing the content. Inside Remm T4/5 Captain reigns supreme because it brings invaluable support i.e. IHW/LS for blood surges and the like as well as having an absurd number of defences cooldowns that allow it to just keep on going where any other tank would have given up.

    This thread is primarily aimed at comparing the tank classes themselves so I've not really gone into any detail on how to "fix" the imbalance as I see it but honestly dialling Captains back in a few areas and adding proper healing cooldowns to the healers would fix most of the issues as well as having the secondary benefit of stopping Captains from being able to complete content without a healer at all. It does bug me that a lot of people seem to be of the mind that adding more "I simply cannot die for X seconds" buttons to the other tanks solves the issues. Those kinds of defensives should be relatively rare and have fairly long cooldowns, once per encounter cooldowns really.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  11. #61
    I agree with the points made towards first fixing BPE system and game mechanics and then start balancing tanks. If they continue in the path of making every single content based in huge hits and benefiting captain so much, they might as well just give all tanks exactly the same captain has and have 4-5 classes having the exact tanking style, which is a mistake in my opinion.
    Tanks should have different styles as they used to, with captains being good as morale tanks + buffers, guardians being the most balanced tanks with cooldowns to survive, wardens being the tanks with highest self support + base self buffs while not really having lots of cooldowns or godmode skills.

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    replies with an riza video lmaoooo

    Shadowed king is such a perfect environment for a captain, only 1 spike hit (which is rlly only a threat to DPS) and that's it. All the other hits can easily be healed away.

    This is exactly what I imply with biased content, there's not nearly enough pressure on the tank.

    Seen a guardian solo tank it aswell btw, so that already should tell you something about the content.

    Me in red(without taunts), a guard, and a champ.

    Red cappy being a moderately effective off healer (should be 15k+ HPS on the tank between rev mark, inspire, WoC and rallying) and more notably...a massive DPS increase that cuts the duration of the fight down by quite a bit. If it was just the guard and the champ perhaps that would be a fair comparison. Granted, you didn't actually give evidence that this group composition has completed it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    It is, BPE no longer stacks as a combined chance, only pBPE does. You can look for the update notes I think about it, they wrote about it in a dev diary.
    If you have evidence that the U18 system was changed further then go ahead and link it. Hearsay of "Oh I think they changed it at some point" doesn't really hold up as fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    50% was quite a bit at the time, people atleast needed to have a bit of cdef slotted due to the armor sets being 5 slots. Which means that Cdef was important to some extend.
    The mitigation BB jewellery for Captain would have been meta at the time, between that, the shield and the crit defence trait you would have been roughly at 50%.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    I'm an individual who likes to question everything and put everything to the test, though I must say I do not look too much into numbers, I tend to zoom out more and see what my options are. This allows me to get creative with my builds.
    It's not really good testing unless you actually provide evidence of said testing and give details on how to reproduce the test.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Red cappy being a moderately effective off healer (should be 15k+ HPS on the tank between rev mark, inspire, WoC and rallying) and more notably...a massive DPS increase that cuts the duration of the fight down by quite a bit. If it was just the guard and the champ perhaps that would be a fair comparison. Granted, you didn't actually give evidence that this group composition has completed it.
    Ah yeah, I don't feel the need to prove myself, not gonna bother wasting time and energy on it either. So you can go scream now that you were absolutely right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post

    If you have evidence that the U18 system was changed further then go ahead and link it. Hearsay of "Oh I think they changed it at some point" doesn't really hold up as fact.
    Not gonna bother looking through 20 pages of patches for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    The mitigation BB jewellery for Captain would have been meta at the time, between that, the shield and the crit defence trait you would have been roughly at 50%.
    I know, I used them during anvil to take care of the guardian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    It's not really good testing unless you actually provide evidence of said testing and give details on how to reproduce the test.


    I don't get the point, this is something I usually think about for myself, not for others. It's my own way of getting creative in my builds and the need to share evidence of my creativity to prove myself is a completely futile act. Yes, I am very proud of my own accomplishments, which gives me certainly an ego, but I never feel the need to prove myself really. I do nonstop analysis, got a thirst for knowledge if it is somewhat related to my class. I mostly do find it out myself or through updates of Turbine at the time I constantly tested those updates myself if it was affecting my class. Could say I question everything, if I think that blue tanking is possible, I try it. I've already tanked T5 chambers in blue line, just for the sake of seeing how it does apply. So I've also thought about doing red cappy, guard, and champ setup and I can say it certainly works. Less adds mean less pressure on the tank and the red captain offers enough sustainability to the tank. It certainly is a much more efficient option than an LM in the place of the captain, not because it's safer, but rather because it's quicker.

    But since you either are so thirsty and blood boiling in this discussion, you can go scream you've won because I am not feeling the need to prove myself here. I quite frankly do not care, so enjoy your victory. But I keep standing by my own viewpoint, seen already enough and I've seen many opinions already proving what I've written.

    I'm out and keep your bs out of the captain topics if you're only aiming at pulling down the class as a whole, post in bullroarer where it belongs. Not in the class forums, thank you.
    WhiteGoliath

    Please leave me in my eternal slumber

  14. #64
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    I'm out and keep your bs out of the captain topics if you're only aiming at pulling down the class as a whole
    If captains can tank remmo t5 with almost no emergencies and almost never going below 75% they wholeheartedly deserve a nerf.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by skarnarval View Post
    If captains can tank remmo t5 with almost no emergencies and almost never going below 75% they wholeheartedly deserve a nerf.
    I agree but they can't, they can't even do it in t3, let alone in t5. They burn all their cooldowns all the time in shelob, rukhor and thossulun. Maybe only it's easy on 1st boss but 1st boss is a joke and it's been pugged even in t5.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by skarnarval View Post
    If captains can tank remmo t5 with almost no emergencies and almost never going below 75% they wholeheartedly deserve a nerf.
    your comment has shown me pure ignorance to all I've said, for that, I won't go in on your argument. Elaborate your argument properly.

    Because like Kander has stated, T5 Boss 1 I do with the hand on my back. We've even had a naked guardian kite tank boss 1 on T3, it's a joke and cant be even considered a boss imo.

    All other bosses apply to what is required to tank it, a buffer tank, which is the captain, so to me it's only logical that they're not required to burn their cds excessively unless emergency situations occur, which does most likely not happen if everything is executed within perfection. But they might burn cooldowns for the guardian.
    WhiteGoliath

    Please leave me in my eternal slumber

  17. #67
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    I agree but they can't, they can't even do it in t3, let alone in t5. They burn all their cooldowns all the time in shelob, rukhor and thossulun. Maybe only it's easy on 1st boss but 1st boss is a joke and it's been pugged even in t5.
    I one day thought the same untill i saw the T5 video's peeps were putting out on YouTube. And so an abomination was born.

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,754
    In a mild attempt to make the comparison easier to visualise I've attempted to rank each class on how they perform in a variety of categories. The information used to build the ranking comes from the OP this chart will be at least a little bit subjective because the amount of maths required to 100% accurately evaluate each class would be a tad beyond me. This is not to be held up as a 100% factual statement of where each class stands, merely a way to tell if any particular class seems to be exceeding the mark in too many areas at once.





    [Yes, I did steal the formatting of this from a post on healers found in a random LOTRO related Discord channel]



    If further information is put into the OP that contradicts what is shown above I'll probably get around to refreshing the rankings when I can.
    Last edited by Joedangod; Sep 29 2020 at 06:52 AM.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    In a mild attempt to make the comparison easier to visualise I've attempted to rank each class on how they perform in a variety of categories. The information used to build the ranking comes from the OP this chart will be at least a little bit subjective because the amount of maths required to 100% accurately evaluate each class would be a tad beyond me. This is not to be held up as a 100% factual statement of where each class stands, merely a way to tell if any particular class seems to be exceeding the mark in too many areas at once.





    [Yes, I did steal the formatting of this from a post on healers found in a random LOTRO related Discord channel]



    If further information is put into the OP that contradicts what is shown above I'll probably get around to refreshing the rankings when I can.
    This chart clearly shows you've no understand about what you're talking. The captain is least easy to heal unless circumstances are right for them. The reason is turning point at the moment being pretty unreliable. So that needs to lose 1 point alrdy. They only become easy to easy once they start burning cooldown ofc.

    Guardian is absolutely easy to heal because their defensive stats are supposed to be much higher than captain. So again your chart is there to portrait the captain as overpowered while guardian should have much tighter defenses. So again your chart is incorrect to what it should be.

    The warden in its current state is ####, once it is actually scaled back, it's defensive capabilities allow for easy healing.


    The tighter the defenses, the more easy it is to heal, because they soak up less dmg, it requires less healing. In compare to captain which rlly only acquires good defenses once they start burning cooldowns which affects the grp aswell because they're a buff class.

    Again, the captain is not overpowered, the captain is at the place where it should be, as to where all the other classes are underperforming. Esp guardian and warden in that case. Because wardens should have better self-healing than captain and have tighter defenses. The only thing they need to worry for is spike damage.

    Guardian self healing is also slightly underscaled, but most important, they miss a lot of their defensive capabilities, esp during the current content we have.

    So again, stop this campaign on trying to pull down the captain.

    I'll show you what the chart is supposed to look like if we'd balance it out, for this reason I'll take away cooldowns because captain tends to rely heavily on them. As the current chart shows clearly incorrect information.


    All you're doing here is showing an information chart without any proper eloberation. Which clearly tells me you're only doing it purely for your own personal goals, we call this propaganda. But it's ok to have your personal agenda, I'll always be here to defend my class whenever some tends express his opinion without either not having the knowledge or to prevent them from getting what they want for their own gain.

    This chart is the same as me screaming through a forum '' GUARDIAN IS OP PLS NERF WATCH HOW BAD OTHER CLASSES DO''
    Last edited by Zaheer; Sep 28 2020 at 08:26 AM.
    WhiteGoliath

    Please leave me in my eternal slumber

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    This chart clearly shows you've no understand about what you're talking. The captain is least easy to heal unless circumstances are right for them. The reason is turning point at the moment being pretty unreliable. So that needs to lose 1 point alrdy. They only become easy to easy once they start burning cooldown ofc.
    Information in OP directly contradicts this as it shows that Captains on average have the highest incoming healing % as well as the highest base morale pool.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Guardian is absolutely easy to heal because their defensive stats are supposed to be much higher than captain. So again your chart is there to portrait the captain as overpowered while guardian should have much tighter defenses. So again your chart is incorrect to what it should be. The tighter the defenses, the more easy it is to heal, because they soak up less dmg, it requires less healing. In compare to captain which rlly only acquires good defenses once they start burning cooldowns which affects the grp aswell because they're a buff class.
    As mentioned on the chart: "Ease to heal" is judged on a combination of incoming healing increases + morale bonuses. Guardians have the lowest average increase in incoming healing and receive no morale bonus.
    Granted the OP also observes that Captains are relatively close to Guardians in terms of overall incoming damage reductions so your point here wouldn't really be true anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Again, the captain is not overpowered, the captain is at the place where it should be, as to where all the other classes are underperforming. Esp guardian and warden in that case. Because wardens should have better self-healing than captain and have tighter defenses. The only thing they need to worry for is spike damage.
    Wardens are already very, very strong self healers in AoE situation but sure, their ST healing could use some bumps in effectiveness. Currently Captains are listed higher than everyone else because they outheal Beornings on self and they don't care whether it's an AoE situation or a ST one. In AoE situations a Warden will surpass a Captain but it is admittedly difficult to show that in such a chart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    Guardian self healing is also slightly underscaled, but most important, they miss a lot of their defensive capabilities, esp during the current content we have.
    It's not really underscaled, they have decent self healing %'s. Are you taking the stance that all tanks should have exceptional self healing?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zaheer View Post
    So again, stop this campaign on trying to pull down the captain.

    I'll show you what the chart is supposed to look like if we'd balance it out, for this reason I'll take away cooldowns because captain tends to rely heavily on them. As the current chart shows clearly incorrect information.


    All you're doing here is showing an information chart without any proper eloberation. Which clearly tells me you're only doing it purely for your own personal goals, we call this propaganda.
    The chart itself is merely meant to serve as an easier way of visualising what is contained within the original post. If we were to remove sections it would hardly be a fair comparison, admittedly we are somewhat missing the value of critical defence and armour bonuses in the chart but everyone is fairly even on those fronts (except guards/wardens who pull a little bit ahead on crit defence, and champs who fall a bit behind on armour). The fact that you're taking this as some kind of crusade against Captains is really a bigger indication of your own bias, I am merely attempting to report on the associated strengths and weaknesses of each tank. I am not particularly underselling or overselling a class in any area and if you can offer some contradictory evidence that shows something is incorrect please go ahead and do so, accurate data is the end goal.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,346
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Information in OP directly contradicts this as it shows that Captains on average have the highest incoming healing % as well as the highest base morale pool.




    As mentioned on the chart: "Ease to heal" is judged on a combination of incoming healing increases + morale bonuses. Guardians have the lowest average increase in incoming healing and receive no morale bonus.
    Granted the OP also observes that Captains are relatively close to Guardians in terms of overall incoming damage reductions so your point here wouldn't really be true anyway.
    Irrelevant of everything else mentioned in your post.

    High morale pools DO NOT in under any circumstance make someone easier to heal, in fact, it is the complete opposite, because it is much harder to get them topped off because you have to heal more. The only factors that can be taken into consideration with regards to "ease of healing" is INCH % as well as Mitigations and -% Inc damage.

    Furthermore the Captain INCH buffs are all centred around outside factors, on paper, having everything up at the same time would, of course, make them massively easy to heal, but the chances of having 5x Turning Point, Banner, plus a fully stacked Shield-brothers call, is almost nigh-on impossible in most circumstances associated with this content.

    They shouldn't be on anything more than a 3 in your chart, AT MOST and this at most due to no other reason than what I said first, which is that higher morale pools DO NOT make the target easier to heal, that logic is beyond flawed.

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    They shouldn't be on anything more than a 3 in your chart, AT MOST and this at most due to no other reason than what I said first, which is that higher morale pools DO NOT make the target easier to heal, that logic is beyond flawed.
    Perhaps the category name is what confused you. Regardless having more morale does make it a bit easier to heal you on the grounds that a bigger health bar gives healers more time to respond to you taking damage and there is less overhealing, that was the logic behind combining those categories. Sure the name might be misleading but the description remains accurate to what the chart is looking at. If I were to lump incoming healing/morale bonuses with mitigation for an "Effective Health Pool" section then you'd mostly just see Captains at the top, blue guards/Beornings second and a mix of the rest with yellow guard bottom.

    On a side note: If you want Turning Point to proc just hit Fighting Withdrawal, you should stack to cap off of that and the stacks will last for a good 20-35 seconds depending on your last parry.
    Last edited by Joedangod; Sep 28 2020 at 09:35 AM.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post

    As mentioned on the chart: "Ease to heal" is judged on a combination of incoming healing increases + morale bonuses. Guardians have the lowest average increase in incoming healing and receive no morale bonus.
    Granted the OP also observes that Captains are relatively close to Guardians in terms of overall incoming damage reductions so your point here wouldn't really be true anyway.


    Wardens are already very, very strong self healers in AoE situation but sure, their ST healing could use some bumps in effectiveness. Currently Captains are listed higher than everyone else because they outheal Beornings on self and they don't care whether it's an AoE situation or a ST one. In AoE situations a Warden will surpass a Captain but it is admittedly difficult to show that in such a chart.
    Those 2 statements are simply false as some people pointed out:

    About ease to heal, having higher morale means you have to heal more to fill morale of said tank. Put into an extreme situation: A tank with 95% mits and 100k morale is way easier to heal than a tank with 50% mits and 2M morale. Higher mits, higher defensive buffs and self heals make it easier to heal, higher morale does quite the opposite.

    I honestly cannot understand how stubborn you are about warden heals in aoe situation. I've played warden as main tank since lvl 75 and last raid I could tank efficiently was throne (apart from anvil and abyss once the raids were on full farm). And I promise you, wardens are not even half the tanks they used to be comparatively to that time. Their self heals got divided by 4 in relative strength.
    The strong self heals you are refering to in aoe situation means 10 targets which do really little damage each one and allow you to focus 100% of the time on spamming resolution, if you put your defensive buffs up and then use resolution when free, you will barely reach 25k HPS, and that's with 10 targets hitting you, which barely ever happens and certainly not on boss fights.

    Captains aren't OP, game design is flawed and BPE is broken since they reduced caps to 13% each (instead of 25%) and massively increased the partials ratings required while leaving most legacies/essences/passives buffs untouched. Fix BPE, scale warden properly and you will see wardens and guardians tanking raid again while captains will be left for 2nd tank /offtank only.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    If we will talk about tank utility, we must not forget that if there is already yellow or red dps Warden in group, then there is no reason to invite blue Warden into the raid, because currently main warden utility skills are Marked/Diminished Target mitigation debuffs and these debuffs don't stack with debuffs from other warden, but instead they overwrite each other. Also weaker debuffs from blue warden will overwrite stronger debuffs from yellow warden. If there are 2 wardens in group, blue warden can add only fellowship induction buff and fellowship mitigation rating buff with low uptime and sadly this is not enough to get tank spot.
    I think same apply for Beorning tank, his debuffs don't stack with debuffs from healing Beorning too.
    True and good point. Also true for beorning tank, except Piercing Roar (-20% damage) does stack with the -40% version from a heal Beorning. Didnt check to see if two -20% versions stack. I did check two bees mit debuffs of different values (-12% and a -15%)--no dice.
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Ulxart, Loremaster

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,754
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Those 2 statements are simply false as some people pointed out:

    About ease to heal, having higher morale means you have to heal more to fill morale of said tank. Put into an extreme situation: A tank with 95% mits and 100k morale is way easier to heal than a tank with 50% mits and 2M morale. Higher mits, higher defensive buffs and self heals make it easier to heal, higher morale does quite the opposite.
    And as pointed out it's more of a naming issue for the category than anything else. The category is clearly displayed as a ranking of incoming healing bonuses/morale bonuses. Yeah, the name is terrible but can you come up with a better name for it?

    And more morale isn't a straight negative to healing, so much healing is wasted on low morale tanks due to overhealing. A tank with more health and more incoming healing will receive more useful healing as less is wasted. Maybe "Healing efficiency works", I dunno, people are probably gonna get hung up over the name regardless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    I honestly cannot understand how stubborn you are about warden heals in aoe situation. I've played warden as main tank since lvl 75 and last raid I could tank efficiently was throne (apart from anvil and abyss once the raids were on full farm). And I promise you, wardens are not even half the tanks they used to be comparatively to that time. Their self heals got divided by 4 in relative strength.
    The strong self heals you are refering to in aoe situation means 10 targets which do really little damage each one and allow you to focus 100% of the time on spamming resolution, if you put your defensive buffs up and then use resolution when free, you will barely reach 25k HPS, and that's with 10 targets hitting you, which barely ever happens and certainly not on boss fights.
    That's higher HPS than most of the other tanks are reaching. I mean I didn't max it out on that category because of the obvious reason that it drops massively on lower target fights but yeah, 25k HPS in AoE is pretty good and you can go higher. These categories are generally taken in isolation. Wardens should end up looking better on this chart than they are in reality because they're an adaptive class that changes what they focus on throughout the fight. That being said I can't rate Warden self heals as terrible because "They might be focusing on something else at the time." That'd just be silly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Captains aren't OP, game design is flawed and BPE is broken since they reduced caps to 13% each (instead of 25%) and massively increased the partials ratings required while leaving most legacies/essences/passives buffs untouched. Fix BPE, scale warden properly and you will see wardens and guardians tanking raid again while captains will be left for 2nd tank /offtank only.
    The BPE change of U18 was a flat buff to avoidance specs as it made your overall damage intake much more consistent. As far as ratings values go Warden is on the cusp of being totally fine with them, tweaking the amounts required would mostly impact Captains/Guardians defensively, not Wardens. Making attacks not bypass avoidance would be the flat buff to Wardens that doesn't improve Captains.
    ~ If all classes were equal people would actually have to start playing competently to get into groups ~

 

 
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload