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  1. #1
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    Tank Class Comparison

    ~ Introduction ~


    Started compiling a comparison of all the tank classes in response to another thread and figured it'd actually be better served to put this comparison in here where I can probably find some people willing to help nail down the actual statistics of each class. This is gonna end up being a lengthy list as I try mention each and every single feature of each and every tank in order to compare, if I've missed something I apologise but understandably...there's a lot of information to collect.

    So, let's get started.

    ~ Full Avoidance ~


    Off the top of my head the figures are as follows:

    • Captain: +5% block, +5% parry from traits, +8% evade with near 100% uptime with good rotation.
    • Blue Guardian: +5% block from traits, +5% parry from traits.
    • Yellow Guardian: +5% block from traits, +5% parry from traits.
    • Beorning: +10% evade with 50% uptime baseline, 100% if raid geared from Remmorchant. -1 or 2% because can't use swords.
    • Warden: +4% from traits, +2% bonus to swords parry chance.
    • Champion: +5% parry trait, +10% parry on a mystery uptime (I'll admit, my blue champ is back at 105 and I barely played it in the first place).



    ~ Partial Avoidance & Rating~

    • Captain: +27.2k parry rating from sure strike buff.
    • Blue Guardian: +68040 block/parry. +8700 rating to each from legacy, 5% partial parry/block chance. +3k Block/Parry from Adaptability.
    • Yellow Guardian: +68040 block/parry. +8700 rating to each from legacy, 2.5% partial parry/block chance.
    • Beorning: Legacy rating buff for 8700 evade, low uptime.
    • Warden: Can get to 90% partial chance via gambits fairly easily in normal rotation, can hit softcap of 100% partial chance if focusing it hard.
    • Champion: +145k block rating.



    ~ Mitigations and Incoming Damage ~


    If we do a quick number crunch on all tanks incoming damage % we get something like this:

    • Captain: 63% mitigations, -20% incoming damage. -15% on a 41% uptime. Overall take ~27.32% of incoming damage.
    • Blue Guardian: 72% physical mitigations, 70% tactical mitigations, -35% incoming damage on ~35-40% uptime. Overall take ~24.29% of incoming physical damage and 26.06% of tactical damage.
    • Yellow Guardian: 60% mitigations, -35% incoming damage on ~35-40% uptime. Overall take ~34.75% of incoming damage.
    • Beorning: 75% phys, 65% tact mitigation. Overall takes 25% of incoming phys damage, 35% of tact.
    • Warden: ~70% phys/tact mitigation (depends on gambit uptime) with set bonus. Overall takes 30% of incoming damage.
    • Champ: 60% physical, 65% tactical, -10% incoming melee damage. -10% incoming damage with Sudden Defence up 15s duration / 25s cooldown. (Blue set bonus from Remmo). Adamant, -29% incoming melee and ranged damage, -27% incoming tactical damage, 15s duration / 1min cooldown.
    • Melee; 60% mits, with an effective -23.25% incoming damage = 30.7% taken damage.
    • Ranged; 60% mits, with an effective -13.25% incoming damage = 34.7% taken damage.
    • Tactical; 65% mits, with an effective -12.75% incoming damage = 30.54% taken damage.


    No, this doesn't account for Cappy herald on everyone else. It also does not account for Tome of Defence.

    ~ Armour Bonuses ~


    • Captain: +34k from sure strike, can use light shields.
    • Blue Guardian: +10% baseline, can use heavy shields.
    • Yellow Guardian: Can use heavy shields.
    • Beorning: +30% in bear form.
    • Warden: Can use warden shields.
    • Champ:


    ~ Morale Bonuses ~


    • Captain: 33% bonus to morale.
    • Blue Guardian: 0% bonus to morale (does have a defensive cooldown that boosts it).
    • Yellow Guardian: 0% bonus to morale (does have a defensive cooldown that boosts it).
    • Beorning: 20% bonus to morale + a low uptime 15% morale bonus roar that nobody uses since you need to be healed for that morale gain. +9.5k Vitality from traits.
    • Warden: 20% bonus.
    • Champ: 20% + 10% uptime on another 20% bonus. +9.5k Vitality from traits.


    ~ Critical Defence ~

    • Captain: +7% critical defence from traits, access to shields.
    • Blue Guardian: +10% critical defence from traits, access to heavy shields. +250k rating from traits.
    • Yellow Guardian: Access to heavy shields. +250k rating from traits.
    • Beorning: +8700 rating from Legacy.
    • Warden: +7% critical defence from traits, access to warden shields, gambits with large critical defence rating boosts.
    • Champion: +7% critical defence from traits.



    ~ Incoming Healing Bonuses ~


    • Captain: 25% bonus from trait, 50% uptime on +30% and another stacking incoming healing buff on a 2m CD.
    • Blue Guardian: 5% from traits.
    • Yellow Guardian: 10% from traits.
    • Beorning: 14% with 100% uptime, 19% with ~47% uptime. -5% because not race of man, scrubs.
    • Warden: 5.5-9.5%
    • Champ: 15%, 33% uptime.


    ~ Defensive Cooldowns ~

    • Captain:
    • Cannot die for 17s, effective cooldown of around 75 seconds.
    • -75% non-stacking incoming damage, can apply to self or others. 20s duration with unimbued swappy. 2min CD.
    • +40% parry chance, 20s duration, 1min CD.
    • +30% incoming healing boost, 50% uptime. Applies in AoE around the Captains banner.
    • -15% incoming damage, 41% uptime.
    • Stacking incoming healing buff, 10-20s duration (depends on stacking speed), 2min CD.
    • 100k morale heal from herald, 90s CD.
    • -20% incoming damage for 20s, also redirects half of fellows incoming damage to you for that duration. 3min CD.
    • ~8k per second HoT 5s duration, 1min CD.
    • Blue Guardian:
    • 100% block chance for 10s, also gives combat state immunity, 150s CD with set.
    • +50% morale for 20s with ~110k bubble. Also full health heal. 2min CD.
    • +60% full BPE chance, 2min CD.
    • -35% incoming damage, ~40% uptime.
    • +20% mitigations for 15s, also causes you to soak fellows damage and die, not bad if you outrange that effect. 90s CD.
    • 35% heal, 43s CD.
    • 2.5% morale per incoming hit, 10s duration, 1min cd.
    • Yellow Guardian:
    • +50% morale for 20s with ~110k bubble. Also full health heal. 2min CD.
    • +60% full BPE chance, 2min CD.
    • -35% incoming damage, ~40% uptime.
    • 35% heal, 43s CD.
    • 2.5% morale per incoming hit, 10s duration, 1min cd.
    • Beorning:
    • -60% incoming damage, 25s duration, 2min CD.
    • 10% evade chance, 100% uptime with set bonus.
    • +15% max morale, 10s duration, 40s CD. Requires bear to be healed for the gained morale bonus.
    • 20% morale heal or 50 wrath returned when under 30% health. 1min CD.
    • 15% morale bubble for 10s, 40s CD.
    • Warden:
    • When under 15% morale, restore 50% morale and power. 5min CD, can have active and off CD at the same time.
    • Champ:
    • 9k heal, 2 minute CD.
    • When under 30% morale, restore 25% morale. 90s CD.
    • Reduce incoming damage by 20%, 10s duration, 1min CD.
    • 20% max morale bonus, ~30s duration depending on stacks, 2min CD.
    • 30% heal over 20s, 3min cooldown.
    • 150k+ bubble, 15s duration / 25s cooldown.


    ~ Group Buffs ~


    • Captain:
    • Cappy Aura for 10% morale +1.2k of each non vit stat, 950 or so vit.
    • -9% incoming damage, +9% outgoing healing/damage 25s duration, 1 min CD.
    • 4% group morale every 5 seconds from revealing mark.
    • -75% incoming damage on ally or self, 20s duration, 2min CD.
    • Stacking incoming healing buff on self + 1 ally, 10-20s duration (depends on stacking speed), 2min CD.
    • -5% incoming damage groupwide, 100% uptime.
    • 50% of damage each player receives redirected to Captain. 20s duration, 3min CD. Can be survived with last stand.
    • Roughly 10k HPS per person from inspire/rallying cry healing. Add words of courage to bump this to around 15k HPS.
    • Blue Guardian:
    • 2% mit buff to fellows.
    • -5% target BPE chance, 100% uptime once active.
    • Can redirect all incoming damage from an ally to self.
    • Yellow Guardian:
    • 5% mit buff to fellow. (Raid set bonus)
    • ~+150k combined BPE rating to fellow.
    • -5% target BPE chance, 100% uptime once active.
    • -50% run speed.
    • +10% miss chance
    • -17.5% outgoing damage
    • +30% enemy attack speed.
    • Enemy armour debuff for -37605 rating, uptime depending on crit luck.
    • Beorning:
    • -15% physical mits on opponent.
    • Can hand out honeycakes.
    • Could use Mend/Hearten on you...probably won't.
    • 90% damage redirect from an ally, 20s duration, 1min CD.
    • +15% incoming damage, 75% uptime.
    • Warden:
    • [Section pending Warden friend to get off his butt and actually give me the full stats]
    • 7.5% mits debuff
    • Champ:
    • -20% Outgoing Damage (10 Targets), 15s duration, 30s cooldown.
    • -30% Outgoing Damage, 5s duration, 30s cooldown.
    • -10% Outgoing Damage (Can be traited to be 10 Targets), 4s duration, 4.2s cooldown.


    ~ Rough Self Healing Capabilities ~

    To preface this section: Mostly only including constant self healing that could be up at pretty much any given time rather than defensive cooldowns.
    • Captain:
    • 3% morale every 3s on self (more likely to be running revealing for 4% every 5s).
    • ~8k HPS from Rallying Cry.
    • ~6k HPS from Inspire.
    • ~8k HPS from traited Muster Courage.
    • Bluee Guardian:
    • 1% morale per block.
    • Yellow Guardian:
    • 10% chance to heal 5% morale vs target.
    • Beorning:
    • Up to ~20k HPS purely from recuperate spam.
    • Also has Mend/Hearten, using them does require you to slow recuperate spam though.
    • Warden:
    • Pushing 30k+ HPS if heal spamming in AoE.
    • ST healing closer to ~12k HPS
    • Champ:
    • If Specc'd Yellow-Blue, Blade of Courage, 20% chance to heal 5% Morale on all Blade Skills.


    ~ Taunts & Aggro ~


    • Captain:
    • Elendils Roar, 10 targets, 30s CD, 40m range.
    • Threatening Shout, 1 target, 15s CD, 40m range.
    • Grave Wound, 1 target, 15s CDish, 5m range.
    • Bug: Blade of Elendil still applies a forced taunt.
    • Blue Guardian:
    • Challenge, 10-15 targets, 30s CD, 15m range.
    • Engage, 1 target, 30s CD, 3m range.
    • Fray the Edge, 1 target, 10s CD, 50m range.
    • Guardian taunts have a 10s forced attack component rather than a 5s.
    • Yellow Guardian:
    • Challenge, 7-12 targets, 30s CD, 15m range.
    • Engage, 1 target, 30s CD, 3m range.
    • Fray the Edge, 1 target, 10s CD, 50m range.
    • Guardian taunts have a 10s forced attack component rather than a 5s.
    • Beorning:
    • Maul, 10 targets (definitely capped at something but no tooltip), 30s CD, 5m range or so.
    • Biting Edge, 5 targets, 18s CD, 5m range.
    • Thunderous Roar, infinite targets, 30s CD, 10m range.
    • Vigilant Roar
    • Warden:
    • Defiant Challenge, 10 targets, 30s CD, 10m range.
    • Warning Shot, 1 target, 10s CD, 30m range.
    • Perhaps worth noting that of all tanks on this list Warden is actually pretty good at holding aggro without ever taunting due to their impressive damage output whilst tanking.
    • Champ:
    • Horn of Champions, 6 targets, 30s CD, 10m range.
    • True Heroics, 20 targets, 2m CD, 15m range.
    • Champions Challenge, 1 target, 30s CD, 30m range.



    ~ DPS ~

    • Captain: Fairly low, limited AoE skills and limited usage of the ones you have kinda lock this out of being a notable DPSer.
    • Blue Guardian:
    • Yellow Guardian:
    • Beorning:
    • Warden: Pretty high, if survival doesn't need to be focused a Blue Warden can parse reasonably well.
    • Champ: Fairly good in both AoE and ST situations.



    ~ Class Stacking ~

    • Captain: Stacks moderately well, only thing that doesn't stack between 2 Captains is Motivating Speech/Heralds (can always run a different herald).
    • Blue Guardian: Fortification does not stack twice on the raid.
    • Yellow Guardian:
    • Beorning: Yellow bears already bring the mits debuff so a second bear simply improves uptime on Armour Crush.
    • Warden: Marked/Diminished Target don't stack and the yellow versions are stronger than the blue version.
    • Champ: Unknown.
    Last edited by Joedangod; Oct 05 2020 at 06:40 PM.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  2. #2
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    For better visualisation of the above data:


    [Somewhat subjective but it does highlight roughly where each class sits in terms of the chosen categories.]
    Last edited by Joedangod; Sep 29 2020 at 06:55 AM.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  3. #3
    Armor Crush for bears too. +15% incoming damage for 10s per 16s. And Sac.

    Got lots of outgoing damage debuffs too among the non-captain tanks. Not as good as as -incoming damage buffs since they are additive (subtractive?) to boss damage bonus AND because the not-100% uptime debuffs need to be on a target before that an attack's outgoing damage is calculated (i.e. before the induction starts). But they're tools in the toolbox for both tank and, depending on the fight, group benefit.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Sep 23 2020 at 12:56 PM.
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Gunnart, Guardian

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Got lots of outgoing damage debuffs too among the non-captain tanks. Not as good as as -incoming damage buffs since they are additive (subtractive?) to boss damage bonus AND because the not-100% uptime debuffs need to be on a target before that an attack's outgoing damage is calculated (i.e. before the induction starts). But they're tools in the toolbox for both tank and, depending on the fight, group benefit.
    True, but there are a lot of them and they're super statistically insignificant. Might leave it to last for now, still gotta cover forced taunts and the like.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  5. #5
    Here is link to my table, I try to keep it updated.
    Tank Class Comparison
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master, Gislin - Burglar

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    Here is link to my table, I try to keep it updated.
    Tank Class Comparison
    Neat, on first glance it seems to be missing 30% armour bonus in bear form.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  7. #7
    Guards Fray has 50M range not 25m

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tullkas View Post
    Guards Fray has 50M range not 25m
    Ha, remembered there was double range applied to Challenge but forgot that one. Thanks.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  9. #9
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    ~ Full Avoidance ~


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Captain: +10% full avoid chance from traits, +8% evade with near 100% uptime with good rotation.
    Guardian: +5% block from traits, +5% parry from traits.
    Can you try to at least be unbiased and be as specific as you are with the other classes, I understand the Captain hate, but lets at least stick to the facts, its +5% Parry and +5% Block, which you separated out for Guardians but not for Captains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Champion: +5% parry trait, +10% parry on a mystery uptime.
    Indeed, it is a mystery, as it requires being critically hit (which is SUCH a bad design).
    They also gain +145k block rating.


    ~ Mitigations and Incoming Damage ~


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Captain: 63% mitigations, -20% incoming damage. Overall take ~29.6% of incoming damage.
    Guardian: 71% mitigations, -35% incoming damage on ~35-40% uptime. Overall take ~25.23% of incoming damage.
    And its 72% mits for Guardian, not 71%. You cannot include Redirect for Guardians and leave out To Arms for Captains, either mention all or none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Champ: I don't really want to bother looking through it, just like SSG. :P
    60% Physical, potential 65% tactical (since no one caps tactical mit).
    -10% incoming melee damage.
    -10% incoming damage with Sudden Defence up 15s duration / 25s cooldown. (Blue set bonus from Remmo).
    Adamant, -29% incoming melee and ranged damage, -27% incoming tactical damage, 15s duration / 1min cooldown.

    For Champion it's easier to break it down into Melee/Ranged/Tactical;

    Melee; 60% mits, with an effective -23.25% incoming damage = 30.7% taken damage.
    Ranged; 60% mits, with an effective -13.25% incoming damage = 34.7% taken damage.
    Tactical; 65% mits, with an effective -12.75% incoming damage = 30.54% taken damage.

    ~ Morale Bonuses ~


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Champ: 20% + 10% uptime on another 20% bonus.
    They also have a +9.5k Vitality trait.


    ~ Incoming Healing Bonuses ~


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Champ: It's got a rating buff I think...
    They have a +15% Incoming Healing buff attached to Bracing Attack (10s duration / 30s cooldown iirc).


    ~ Defensive Cooldowns ~


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Captain:
    +30% incoming healing boost, 50% uptime. Applies in AoE around the Captains banner.
    Stacking incoming healing buff, 10-20s duration (depends on stacking speed), 2min CD.
    ~8k per second HoT 5s duration, 1min CD.
    Again, can we stop with the bias?

    Not sure how you are counting Shield-Brothers call as a "cooldown" when it requires your shield-brother to actually take damage to stack the effect on yourself and in all one-tank scenario's this doesn't work, considering no one else is taking damage allowing you to stack the buff on yourself. Don't understand why you are also including the banner as a cooldown either. I also don't understand how you can also qualify Strength in Numbers as a "cooldown" either, it's a pathetic heal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Champ:
    9k heal, 2 minute CD.
    When under 30% morale, restore 25% morale. 90s CD.
    Reduce incoming damage by 20%, 10s duration, 1min CD.
    20% max morale bonus, ~30s duration depending on stacks, 2min CD.
    You forgot Sudden Defence, which is around a 150k+ bubble, 15s duration / 25s cooldown.
    Adamant is also -29% incoming melee and ranged damage, -27% incoming tactical damage, 15s duration / 1min cooldown, (Not -20% incoming damage for 10s).

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Captain:
    -20% to all incoming damage fellowship wide, 50% of damage each player receives redirected to Captain. 20s duration, 3min CD. Can be survived with last stand.
    The -20% incoming damage on In Harms Way is NOT applied to the fellowship, it is applied to the Captain.


    ~ Group Buffs ~


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Champ:
    Legitimately have no idea what it can buff/debuff.
    Horn of Champions, -20% Outgoing Damage (10 Targets), 15s duration, 30s cooldown.
    Champions Challenge, -30% Outgoing Damage, 5s duration, 30s cooldown.
    BladeWall Aggressive Exchange, -10% Outgoing Damage (Can be traited to be 10 Targets), 4s duration, 4.2s cooldown.


    ~ Rough Self Healing Capabilities ~


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Champ:
    [Seriously, does anyone play this class?]
    Yes.

    Fight On, 30% heal over 20s, 3min cooldown.
    If Specc'd Yellow-Blue, Blade of Courage, 20% chance to heal 5% Morale on all Blade Skills.


    ~ Taunts & Aggro ~


    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Beorning:
    Maul, ~8 targets (definitely capped at something but no tooltip), 30s CD, 5m range or so.
    Its 10 targets.

    Champions also do not struggle/need to taunt in order to hold aggro in single target fights when traited blue-red.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Sep 23 2020 at 08:39 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Can you try to at least be unbiased and be as specific as you are with the other classes, I understand the Captain hate, but lets at least stick to the facts, its +5% Parry and +5% Block, which you separated out for Guardians but not for Captains.
    That inconsistency in description occurred due to me forgetting about the redline parry bonus and having to add it in afterwards. Granted there's no technical difference between labeling it as full avoidance and splitting it between block/parry since both have identical conditionals in this case. I'd like to remind you of the following line from the original post here:

    if I've missed something I apologise but understandably...there's a lot of information to collect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    And its 72% mits for Guardian, not 71%. You cannot include Redirect for Guardians and leave out To Arms for Captains, either mention all or none.
    Good point on the To Arms omission. Bah, I remembered the Guardian as 1% from blue heart, 1% from yellow heart and just assumed that the yellow heart was the only one changed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Again, can we stop with the bias?

    Not sure how you are counting Shield-Brothers call as a "cooldown" when it requires your shield-brother to actually take damage to stack the effect on yourself and in all one-tank scenario's this doesn't work, considering no one else is taking damage allowing you to stack the buff on yourself. Don't understand why you are also including the banner as a cooldown either. I also don't understand how you can also qualify Strength in Numbers as a "cooldown" either, it's a pathetic heal.
    It being situational does not suddenly make it "Not a cooldown". Perhaps I should be more clear, I have roughly categorised defensive cooldowns as abilities which are defensive in nature with a cooldown of 30+ seconds (long enough to not really consider them rotational). The fact that some of these skills aren't actually effective is a tad irrelevant, amused you singled out Strength in Numbers for your complaint here when Dire Need is listed on the Champion side. The banner being listed is equally self explanatory, it is an item you can throw down in preparation of heavy damage in order to make it easier for the healer to keep you alive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Adamant is also -29% incoming melee and ranged damage, -27% incoming tactical damage, 15s duration / 1min cooldown, (Not -20% incoming damage for 10s).
    Yeah, tooltips tend to be a bit confusing and I'll admit to having somewhat rushed the Champ sections.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    The -20% incoming damage on In Harms Way is NOT applied to the fellowship, it is applied to the Captain.
    Incorrect:

    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Good point on the To Arms omission. Bah, I remembered the Guardian as 1% from blue heart, 1% from yellow heart and just assumed that the yellow heart was the only one changed.
    Well, its 72% Physical as its +2% Physical, but still only 70% Tactical / They also get +245k Crit Defence from Bolster, which is far more than all tanks obtain passively from gear.
    Also ToD's favour anyone with low base mitigations, it doesn't have anything to do with how much -% damage they also have on top of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    It being situational does not suddenly make it "Not a cooldown". Perhaps I should be more clear, I have roughly categorised defensive cooldowns as abilities which are defensive in nature with a cooldown of 30+ seconds (long enough to not really consider them rotational). The fact that some of these skills aren't actually effective is a tad irrelevant, amused you singled out Strength in Numbers for your complaint here when Dire Need is listed on the Champion side. The banner being listed is equally self explanatory, it is an item you can throw down in preparation of heavy damage in order to make it easier for the healer to keep you alive.
    To be honest, I did mean to mention Dire Need, but forgot, the heal is also around 18k not 9k. Either way, both are irrelevant, which also applies to Shield-Brothers Call, the irrelevance of a cooldown is just as important as noting its existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Yeah, tooltips tend to be a bit confusing and I'll admit to having somewhat rushed the Champ sections.
    I noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Incorrect:

    I'm aware of what the tooltip states, and as you can see, the tooltip SPLITS its effects into two parts, the first;

    Aura - affects Fellowship members within 20 metres:
    Duration: 20s

    This is in reference to the damage redirect, and the second;

    -20% Incoming Damage.
    Duration: 20s

    This is a self-buff applied to the Captain ONLY. Feel free to test, it has already been mentioned on the forums multiple times across the years too, notably here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-broken-bugged
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Sep 23 2020 at 08:55 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    ~ Incoming Healing Bonuses ~

    • Beorning: 7% with good uptime, 15% with ~33% uptime. -5% because not race of man, scrubs.
    You know, that "good uptime" should be 100% uptime assume you taunt again within 4 seconds of it coming off cooldown. That 33% uptime is actually 47% uptime. And those numbers should be "14% with 100% uptime, 19% with nearly 50% uptime" assuming you use a swappy.

  13. #13
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    Admittedly biggest omission was not treating yellow guard as separate. I'll figure that out when I wake up later I guess.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Well, its 72% Physical as its +2% Physical, but still only 70% Tactical / They also get +245k Crit Defence from Bolster, which is far more than all tanks obtain passively from gear.
    Crit defence is still an utterly pointless stat beyond 50%, right? (don't think anyone bothered building to mitigate devastates).
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Crit defence is still an utterly pointless stat beyond 50%, right? (don't think anyone bothered building to mitigate devastates).
    Most tanks do not even reach 40% though. Guardians are the only tank firmly over 50% without having to specifically slot Crit Defence essences.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Most tanks do not even reach 40% though. Guardians are the only tank firmly over 50% without having to specifically slot Crit Defence essences.
    Wardens should be comfortably over 50% in combat.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Wardens should be comfortably over 50% in combat.
    True enough, I'll give you Wardens, other tanks do not though.

  18. #18
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    Ok, most corrections should be in the post by now. As far as avoidance rating bonuses go I'll leave that to a partial avoidance section since the defensive value of such bonuses would be counted a little differently compared to the full avoid bonuses. Probably just gonna be a case of:

    Warden: Has Avoidance.
    Rest: Do Not.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Ok, most corrections should be in the post by now.
    Still need to revise your IHW section, but otherwise fine and - Also ToD's favour anyone with low base mitigations, it doesn't have anything to do with how much -% damage they also have on top of that.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Sep 23 2020 at 09:37 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Still need to revise your IHW section, but otherwise fine and - Also ToD's favour anyone with low base mitigations, it doesn't have anything to do with how much -% damage they also have on top of that.
    ToD favours people with high -incoming damage reductions as the effectiveness of that 10% increases as your incoming damage reduction increases. Beorning for example has no incoming damage reductions outside of Thickened Hide so Tome of Defence is equivalent to a -10% incoming damage reduction. Captain on the other hand is on an average of -26.15% incoming damage already so a Tome of Defence actually works out to be a ~14% decrease in incoming damage for them.

    It's the same principle that applies to mitigation, when you get higher mits each individual point of mitigation becomes a more effective decrease in incoming damage. It's also why I've generally been loathe to suggest buffing mitigation values on tanks, we're already pretty high in that regard. A 1% bonus to Beorning phys mits works out to be a 4% decrease in incoming physical damage.

    Will remove that line pointing out ToD favouring Captain though, that's just a hold over from me copying this from a post I was writing in the Captain forums.
    Last edited by Joedangod; Sep 24 2020 at 06:07 AM.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    ToD favours people with high -incoming damage reductions as the effectiveness of that 10% increases as your incoming damage reduction increases. Beorning for example has no incoming damage reductions outside of Thickened Hide so Tome of Defence is equivalent to a -10% incoming damage reduction. Captain on the other hand is on an average of -26.15% incoming damage already so a Tome of Defence actually works out to be a ~14% decrease in incoming damage for them.

    It's the same principle that applies to mitigation, when you get higher mits each individual point of mitigation becomes a more effective decrease in incoming damage. It's also why I've generally been loathe to suggest buffing mitigation values on tanks, we're already pretty high in that regard. A 1% bonus to Beorning phys mits works out to be a 4% decrease in incoming physical damage.

    Will remove that line pointing out ToD favouring Captain though, that's just a hold over from me copying this from a post I was writing in the Captain forums.
    Um. This is not true? the -10% reduction from ToD is additive with other -% incoming damage bonuses, not cumulative.

    Tested on a training dummy;

    1517 base taken damage.
    1366 taken damage with ToD (-10%).
    1244 taken damage with ToD + Sure Strike defence buff (-15%).
    1062 taken damage with ToD + Sure Strike + Battle Hardened (-30%).

    1062 is 30% less damage than 1517, so I don't understand where you get this apparent 14% from? It does not work in the sense that each new taken value after one -% incoming damage buff has been applied becomes the new raw value and a further -% incoming damage buffs are multiplied from that number. The only discrepancy is the Sure Strike damage reduction but it evens out with the other two buffs.

    Test without ToD (on another captain);

    1425 base taken damage.
    1354 taken damage with Sure Strike defence buff (-5%).
    1140 taken damage with Sure Strike + Battle Hardened (-20%).

    1140 is 20% less damage than 1425.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Incorrect:

    I'm aware of what the tooltip states, and as you can see, the tooltip SPLITS its effects into two parts, the first;

    Aura - affects Fellowship members within 20 metres:
    Duration: 20s

    This is in reference to the damage redirect, and the second;

    -20% Incoming Damage.
    Duration: 20s

    This is a self-buff applied to the Captain ONLY. Feel free to test, it has already been mentioned on the forums multiple times across the years too, notably here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-broken-bugged
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Sep 24 2020 at 06:55 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Um. This is not true? the -10% reduction from ToD is additive with other -% incoming damage bonuses, not cumulative.

    Tested on a training dummy.

    1517 base taken damage.
    1366 taken damage with ToD (-10%).
    1244 taken damage with Sure Strike defence buff (-15%).
    1062 taken damage with Battle Hardened (-30%).

    1062 is 30% less damage than 1517, so I don't understand where you get this apparent 14% from?
    There's something weird going on with those numbers.

    1244 is 82% of 1517 so apparently a tome + sure strike is reducing incoming damage by 18%, not the expected 15%. Yet somehow it still accounts to 30% overall.


    Regardless, I'll throw up a different example which might be clearer.

    Take 2 Beornings, 1 has a tome of defence, 1 does not. We shall assume identical mitigations in this scenario.

    They both activate Thickened Hide (-60% incoming damage) and take a single hit that would do 100 damage before incoming damage reductions are calculated. The damage they take is as follows.

    Tome Beorning No Tome Beorning
    -Incoming Damage % 70% 60%
    Damage Taken 30 40

    30 damage is 75% of 40 damage, therefore the tome of defence is effectively working out to be a -25% incoming damage in this scenario.

    To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the Tome of Defence is secretly working as a -14% incoming damage buff on Captains instead of -10%; I am instead observing that the Tome of Defence is having a -14% effect on the overall damage intake of the Captain.
    Last edited by Joedangod; Sep 24 2020 at 07:08 AM.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    There's something weird going on with those numbers.

    1244 is 82% of 1517 so apparently a tome + sure strike is reducing incoming damage by 18%, not the expected 15%. Yet somehow it still accounts to 30% overall.


    Regardless, I'll throw up a different example which might be clearer.

    Take 2 Beornings, 1 has a tome of defence, 1 does not. We shall assume identical mitigations in this scenario.

    They both activate Thickened Hide (-60% incoming damage) and take a single hit that would do 100 damage before incoming damage reductions are calculated. The damage they take is as follows.

    Tome Beorning No Tome Beorning
    -Incoming Damage % 70% 60%
    Damage Taken 30 40

    30 damage is 75% of 40 damage, therefore the tome of defence is effectively working out to be a -25% incoming damage in this scenario.

    To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the Tome of Defence is secretly working as a -14% incoming damage buff on Captains instead of -10%; I am instead observing that the Tome of Defence is having a -14% effect on the overall damage intake of the Captain.
    Check my edited message, I did specify there was some discrepancy with ToD+SS but equals out overall.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Check my edited message, I did specify there was some discrepancy with ToD+SS but equals out overall.
    Yep, but doesn't really change the point. A flat additive 10% bonus makes a bigger overall impact to your final damage intake when you reach higher baseline % reductions.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Yep, but doesn't really change the point. A flat additive 10% bonus makes a bigger overall impact to your final damage intake when you reach higher baseline % reductions.
    Well clearly not true? Because BH+SS+ToD is -30% which is exactly as it should be?

 

 
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