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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    This is just bluster. Come off it, if you'd so much as read the books and paid attention (or even just seen the LOTR movies!) you'd know that the devs' version isn't true to the source material or the really, really obvious references it makes. If you got out even a bit more games-wise you'd also have seen others in the games industry can take those same sort of references and tackle them more sympathetically (I only picked Skyrim because it was wildly popular, with 20 million copies sold, and so is an exceedingly well-known title... but not to you, of course). The period Tolkien was borrowing from for inspiration for Rohan is pretty damn popular when it comes to games because it also has, you know, Vikings and stuff, the whole Nordic thing. And on top of that I genuinely do have a far, far better idea of what to expect than you do. That you think it's just my idea and I've somehow made all this up in my head is all too telling. Ignorance is bliss, evidently; I'll leave you to your flower-pots, tacky trophies and other random bric-a-brac.
    Nonsense. If you had so much as even played LOTRO and visited the Rohan houses and how many of them are furnished you might have seen what it is I want to recreate in the game, because that's where we are at: an adaption made by the artists impressions of the source material, and that somehow keeps *swooshing* over your head like a F22 Raptor on afterburner. You can think it wrong all you like, but that's just your opinion. So why are you even here at a LOTRO forum, unless you're only actively seeking to preach and lecture others, or constantly searching that river of "people who are wrong on the internet" for someone to snap at with your vast knowledge (that can't produce concrete proof, only speculation and interpretation, of what I've been asking about since the beginning)? But yes, ignorance is indeed bliss for those who can't see further than their nose snugly tucked down between the pages of a book and never see the larger picture or the constantly changing and adapting world around them. You keep belittling and ridicule me and my playing style and that speaks tons of what kind of person you are, while you sit on your throne of books and ancient lore and pointing fingers, thinking you are so vastly superior. Go back to your books, and let me play the game the way I want to.
    Last edited by Heredryn; Sep 14 2020 at 08:27 AM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    an adaption made by the artists impressions of the source material
    What's the real difference between me saying it should be simpler all round and you saying it should be smaller? You're acknowledging that the bloated scale is too much for what they can let you put in it; I'm just saying it's too fancy as well.

    As for artistic impressions in general... just look at some of the items, like the 'Rohirric Study' (what's with the big stone?), various supposedly 'Rohirric' Renaissance sideboards (not the best fit for what's meant to be an early medieval ambience), chests of drawers (17th century), the Watchful Seat (looks more like the Comfy Commode), and a 17th century style windmill, among others. I am not impressed. Can't enjoy stuff that's so anachronistic that it sticks out like a sore thumb.
    You can think it wrong all you like, but that's just your opinion.
    Not when it's objectively way off the mark and demonstrably so. Not when other people have noticed that on previous occasions. You might not know what on earth you're looking at and so it's all the same to you, but that doesn't make me wrong.

    What 'larger picture' do you imagine there is here? It's simply a comparatively poor and uninspired rendition of something that other people have done way better, if you can't accept that LOTRO might be questionable when it comes to things like this then it's really you who needs to wake up and look around.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    What's the real difference between me saying it should be simpler all round and you saying it should be smaller? You're acknowledging that the bloated scale is too much for what they can let you put in it; I'm just saying it's too fancy as well.

    As for artistic impressions in general... just look at some of the items, like the 'Rohirric Study' (what's with the big stone?), various supposedly 'Rohirric' Renaissance sideboards (not the best fit for what's meant to be an early medieval ambience), chests of drawers (17th century), the Watchful Seat (looks more like the Comfy Commode), and a 17th century style windmill, among others. I am not impressed. Can't enjoy stuff that's so anachronistic that it sticks out like a sore thumb.

    Not when it's objectively way off the mark and demonstrably so. Not when other people have noticed that on previous occasions. You might not know what on earth you're looking at and so it's all the same to you, but that doesn't make me wrong.

    What 'larger picture' do you imagine there is here? It's simply a comparatively poor and uninspired rendition of something that other people have done way better, if you can't accept that LOTRO might be questionable when it comes to things like this then it's really you who needs to wake up and look around.

    Well that's the beauty of it all, isn't it? It's not made to impress *you*. You can freely choose which items you want. If you don't like something, dont use it. If you want to live in a barren house with nothing else than a bed and a table to feel the "true" anglo-saxon way of life, then do so. Noone will (hopefully) shame you or belittle you for what you choose to do in the game, unlike your made-up assumptions and ridicule on what kind of furniture I like to have in a house. And moaning about how much better and knowledgable you are and that everyone else that think differently are wrong, is just arrogant a**-h*ttery. I'm not wrong for wanting to play and enjoy the game and its setting in a different way than yours. Your way and your view of the source material isn't the only way, and it won't ever be. Every Tolkien historian and reader would have their own take on many things, so yours is just one amongst thousands.

    This isn't Lord of the Rings. It's an adaption called Lord of the Rings Online. It may be questionable in many ways, but we as players use what we got and make the best of it, within the larger picture the devs have presented for us. Some things are good, others not so much, but we can only work with what we have. You'd do well to remember that and reflect upon it, and maybe you'll learn to actually enjoy things one day. I can definitely enjoy pure lore-accuracy and total nerdery, but I also enjoy making something into "my own" when given the chance, instead of staring myself blind down a narrow corridor. You should try it sometime.

    Now, are we finished beating this bloated dead horse already? If you want to continue debating wether an item or a house layout is lore-correct, then I kindly ask you to please do so elsewhere more appropiate, a suggestion would be the Lore subforum further down. I'm sure you'd get more pats on the shoulder there for presenting your views.



    On topic, I have found out that the Eastfold Hills houses have a MUCH nicer layout on the inside. Is there any way we could have that in Kingstead Meadows too, please? And more housing hooks, of course!
    Last edited by Heredryn; Sep 14 2020 at 06:41 PM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    Well that's the beauty of it all, isn't it? It's not made to impress *you*. You can freely choose which items you want.
    Can't choose what the damn houses look like though, can I? Great big glass windows and all. And the point is, who is it made to impress? Not me, obviously, and not you either because they're too damn big to furnish properly. Who's it even for?

    Every Tolkien historian and reader would have their own take on many things, so yours is just one amongst thousands.
    But a lot of people do know what a mead-hall's meant to look like, you know. There is such a thing as a broad consensus when it's something inspired by a real thing that crops up in a bunch of other fantasy as well. We all saw that in the movies, so you can hardly pretend everyone would see it completely differently. It's not like Minas Tiirith where there's no real hint as to what the architecture should look like.

    This isn't Lord of the Rings. It's an adaption called Lord of the Rings Online.
    'Online' isn't shorthand for "...Made Stupid", or at least it doesn't need to be. And the movies were an adaption too, and so were the games based on them. Doesn't explain why the devs here do what they do, in and of itself. At times it's like they don't even try to make sense, and you trying to tell me or anyone else we should just learn to enjoy things anyway doesn't help and really comes across as a fanboyish thing to say.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Can't choose what the damn houses look like though, can I? Great big glass windows and all. And the point is, who is it made to impress? Not me, obviously, and not you either because they're too damn big to furnish properly. Who's it even for?


    But a lot of people do know what a mead-hall's meant to look like, you know. There is such a thing as a broad consensus when it's something inspired by a real thing that crops up in a bunch of other fantasy as well. We all saw that in the movies, so you can hardly pretend everyone would see it completely differently. It's not like Minas Tiirith where there's no real hint as to what the architecture should look like.


    'Online' isn't shorthand for "...Made Stupid", or at least it doesn't need to be. And the movies were an adaption too, and so were the games based on them. Doesn't explain why the devs here do what they do, in and of itself. At times it's like they don't even try to make sense, and you trying to tell me or anyone else we should just learn to enjoy things anyway doesn't help and really comes across as a fanboyish thing to say.
    If you insist on keeping this pointless discussion up here, even though I asked you to take it elsewhere...

    I said "many things", that could mean... many things, not necessarily a mead hall in particular, that's your own example. I know very well how a historical meadhall looks like too, and I just don't think that can be carbon-copied without doing some alterations. In the movies it's pretty clear that Meduseld has different rooms and isn't just a big hall; there is at least one smaller common room where many of the fellowship sleep after the battle, and unless I'm entirely mistaken and remember wrong, Theodred's (death)bed was in a private room inside Meduseld as well, so there are likely several rooms and quarters in there. That was their adaption of it apparently. Not really like the vast and open roomless Meadhalls of old, but pretty close to LOTRO's later versions of Meadhalls.

    Why the LOTRO devs do what they do, is just up to them to decide. Someone has a design idea and someone higher up approves it for production. We can either accept it as part of their vision, or we can keep complaining about "that's not how it looks like!" and suggest a change that may work better. Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. And we can debate endlessly and go back and forth of what is right and what is wrong, and noone will be the wiser because, you know, different minds, different ideas, different views. You think their adaption is stupid, sure. That's your right, just as it's mine to think it's a decent one, but not perfect.

    Try to enjoy the game or not, that's entirely up to you and was merely a suggestion. Noone's forcing you to play or stay here if you don't like it, and you seem to despise so much of LOTRO's adaption in general, so why you're even here at all is a complete mystery.

    Now, again, I would ask that you take this discussion elsewhere to a more appropiate location so this thread can go back to what it was supposed to be: a suggestion for better Rohan homes in LOTRO. But at least it keeps the thread high up for visibility!

    On topic: Come on SSG, we need more hooks!

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    I said "many things", that could mean... many things, not necessarily a mead hall in particular, that's your own example. I know very well how a historical meadhall looks like too, and I just don't think that can be carbon-copied without doing some alterations. In the movies it's pretty clear that Meduseld has different rooms and isn't just a big hall; there is at least one smaller common room where many of the fellowship sleep after the battle, and unless I'm entirely mistaken and remember wrong, Theodred's (death)bed was in a private room inside Meduseld as well, so there are likely several rooms and quarters in there. That was their adaption of it apparently. Not really like the vast and open roomless Meadhalls of old, but pretty close to LOTRO's later versions of Meadhalls.
    In the book, Theoden offers them a guest-house and a chance to eat and sleep, which they refuse. In any case, the idea of the king and his household living and sleeping communally in the hall would likely have seemed weird to a general audience, it's one of those 'the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there' things and in a movie there's no time to explain stuff like that. Not so in an RPG, where a bit of culture shock is good for the experience.

    The devs have always tried to impress with sheer scale, gaudiness and oddball fantasy ornamentation. They're not good at making things look believable, they always have to slap more stuff on something and/or make it bigger to try to make it look impressive. More of a house style than anything else. Bit sad though, rather like slapping a huge spoiler on the back of your car to try to make it look like it's fast. You can call that a 'vision' if you like.

    Now, again, I would ask that you take this discussion elsewhere to a more appropiate location so this thread can go back to what it was supposed to be: a suggestion for better Rohan homes in LOTRO. But at least it keeps the thread high up for visibility!
    Man, the devs will already have seen your suggestion if they're going to and damn straight further discussion keeps it bumped rather than it just dying. But if more hooks would mean performance issues then they won't do it.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    In the book, Theoden offers them a guest-house and a chance to eat and sleep, which they refuse. In any case, the idea of the king and his household living and sleeping communally in the hall would likely have seemed weird to a general audience, it's one of those 'the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there' things and in a movie there's no time to explain stuff like that. Not so in an RPG, where a bit of culture shock is good for the experience.

    The devs have always tried to impress with sheer scale, gaudiness and oddball fantasy ornamentation. They're not good at making things look believable, they always have to slap more stuff on something and/or make it bigger to try to make it look impressive. More of a house style than anything else. Bit sad though, rather like slapping a huge spoiler on the back of your car to try to make it look like it's fast. You can call that a 'vision' if you like.


    Man, the devs will already have seen your suggestion if they're going to and damn straight further discussion keeps it bumped rather than it just dying. But if more hooks would mean performance issues then they won't do it.
    You are quite obviously arguing solely for arguing's sake now, almost as if you somehow desperately need to have the last word in this matter.

    "In the books, in the books, in the books" etc. It's still up to the reader and artists to make their own version. And it's awfully funny how so many are able to do just that and appreciate the designs other people come up with, while you stubbornly refuse to. As for your dislike of extravagant furniture and ideas, even the movie designers don't agree with you there.

    https://middleeartharchitectures.fil...2014/09/eo.jpg

    Still from Two Towers, Theodred's room. We can't see all of the room, but one can assume there is a fireplace in the corner not facing us, and/or other pieces of furniture such as shelves etc.

    Items used in this scene:

    Pretty iron chandelier.
    Iron logholder (?)
    Decorated chairs and stools.
    A fairly large table with random things upon it.
    Armorstand.
    Beautifully carved cupboard, with smaller random things upon it.
    A large chest.
    A large bed.
    At least 2 sidetables with various random things upon them.
    Hides on the highly decorated stone floor.
    Iron candleholders on the walls.
    Highly decorated walls in general.

    Pretty much everything you called out earlier as inauthentic, and many of those items are VERY similar to LOTRO's. That's why it's called an artist's rendition.

    I wouldn't call that "sparsely furnished" for that room size, and even though it's a Prince's quarters, I see NO reason why a common house of the same or larger size could have similar things scattered about, although in a rougher shape. In a larger room, more items could be warranted. From my point of view the Rohirrim is a MUCH richer culture with an exceptional eye for design and crafts than the anglo-saxon ever were, since they live in, you know, the fantasy world of Middle-Earth where elves, dwarves, hobbits and dragons roam, often surrounded by an aura of magic that we will never understand. Feel free to stick with your anglo-saxon meadhalls with very little and boring furniture. I prefer a more creative outlook.
    Last edited by Heredryn; Sep 15 2020 at 06:47 AM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    "In the books, in the books, in the books" etc. It's still up to the reader and artists to make their own version. And it's awfully funny how so many are able to do just that and appreciate the designs other people come up with, while you stubbornly refuse to. As for your dislike of extravagant furniture and ideas, even the movie designers don't agree with you there.
    I only pointed that out to show that Tolkien already had something in mind, he didn't simply leave it open. And I already pointed out why the movie designers most likely did things the way they did, because they had to think of how a general audience would react and not make it too basic;; that would have been too far from people's expectations and would have been jarring. They also had a specific design brief, to try to make sets like that look like they could once have been real rather than trying to be overtly fantastic. Turbine / SSG's version of things looks bizarre and wildly exaggerated by comparison. The movies didn't have extravagant furniture, a crazy-looking throne, mad numbers of horse statues or wildly unrealistic architecture for Meduseld, so I like their version because it was well thought out, classy looking and entirely believable. So I do appreciate the work of others - you're just getting all bent out of shape because i'm criticising the game in particular. (Which I'm doing because their version of it is a giant bunch of nonsense).

    Pretty iron chandelier.
    Iron logholder (?)
    Decorated chairs and stools.
    A fairly large table with random things upon it.
    Armorstand.
    Beautifully carved cupboard, with smaller random things upon it.
    A large chest.
    A large bed.
    At least 2 sidetables with various random things upon them.
    Hides on the highly decorated stone floor.
    Iron candleholders on the walls.
    Highly decorated walls in general.
    And then you might care to notice the differences:

    - no great big glazed windows
    - no damn great carvings or statues of horses
    - all this is meant to look absolutely real and practical
    - still no carpets on the damn floor. LOTRO would have a carpet out on the mead-hall floor
    - there's a chest, not a chest of drawers
    - no bizarre items like the 'Rohirric Study' or the 'Watchful Seat'
    - LOTRO has 'rough' and 'simple' Rohirric versions of things, implying they're ordinary which is silly. That even includes bookcases, which is doubly silly for a place like Rohan.
    - and no bookcase to be seen here
    - the point about tables was that the ones in the mead-hall would be trestle tables
    - the point about chairs was that in the mead-hall everyone would be sitting on benches
    - items like that lone, small chandelier could have come from somewhere else, you know. Meanwhile in LOTRO the mead-halls routinely have several huge rough-hewn chandeliers apiece.

    And oh yes, the houses out in Edoras are on a modest scale and in a believable style. And no damn windmill anywhere to be seen.

    That's why it's called an artist's rendition.
    Oh look, a false equivalence.

    I wouldn't call that "sparsely furnished" for that room size, and even though it's a Prince's quarters, I see NO reason why a common house of the same or larger size could have similar things scattered about, although in a rougher shape.
    Jazzed up because a movie audience wouldn't expect a prince to have a sparsely furnished room. And seeing no reason is precisely where you fail; you simply know no reason, because you don't think or bother to look things up so you just assume things. For example, commoners wouldn't even have chairs, they'd have benches or stools, and a simple trestle table.

    From my point of view
    Well, Tolkien said different; he only made a bit nicer to be 'heroic' but certainly not that much richer, as his description of Meduseld attests. The Anglo-Saxons did have an exceptional eye for design and certain crafts, it was just that only wealthy people had such nice things. Aura of magic my backside, the Rohirrim are just ordinary Men and don't have any magic about them (again, if you'd read the books you should know that). Literally the only outright fantasy element in Rohan is the mearas, and nobody but the king and his sons (and cheeky Wizards) got to ride those.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Jazzed up because a movie audience wouldn't expect ....
    I'd say the same for Lotro...I think many things are 'jazzed up' for a gaming audience.

    Also, why not start your very own suggestion thread(s) Radhruin? Clearly you're a zealous fan of the lore and have many thoughts on what is right/wrong in the game ...so, make a suggestion thread! Make many! Maybe you'd have a good conversation with like-minded folks. Seems like that might be more productive than arguing/debating someone else's suggestion and trying to prove their opinion wrong. In the case of this thread, I agree with much of the OP's opinion and presenting me with facts from lore won't change my mind on how I'd like to decorate my Mead Hall. (I won't dispute the facts, I just don't consider them while decorating my piece of the game world)

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerryCav View Post
    I'd say the same for Lotro...I think many things are 'jazzed up' for a gaming audience.
    A quick analogy to what their idea of jazzing things up seems like to me


  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I only pointed that out to show that Tolkien already had something in mind, he didn't simply leave it open. And I already pointed out why the movie designers most likely did things the way they did, because they had to think of how a general audience would react and not make it too basic;; that would have been too far from people's expectations and would have been jarring. They also had a specific design brief, to try to make sets like that look like they could once have been real rather than trying to be overtly fantastic. Turbine / SSG's version of things looks bizarre and wildly exaggerated by comparison. The movies didn't have extravagant furniture, a crazy-looking throne, mad numbers of horse statues or wildly unrealistic architecture for Meduseld, so I like their version because it was well thought out, classy looking and entirely believable. So I do appreciate the work of others - you're just getting all bent out of shape because i'm criticising the game in particular. (Which I'm doing because their version of it is a giant bunch of nonsense).


    And then you might care to notice the differences:

    - no great big glazed windows
    - no damn great carvings or statues of horses
    - all this is meant to look absolutely real and practical
    - still no carpets on the damn floor. LOTRO would have a carpet out on the mead-hall floor
    - there's a chest, not a chest of drawers
    - no bizarre items like the 'Rohirric Study' or the 'Watchful Seat'
    - LOTRO has 'rough' and 'simple' Rohirric versions of things, implying they're ordinary which is silly. That even includes bookcases, which is doubly silly for a place like Rohan.
    - and no bookcase to be seen here
    - the point about tables was that the ones in the mead-hall would be trestle tables
    - the point about chairs was that in the mead-hall everyone would be sitting on benches
    - items like that lone, small chandelier could have come from somewhere else, you know. Meanwhile in LOTRO the mead-halls routinely have several huge rough-hewn chandeliers apiece.

    And oh yes, the houses out in Edoras are on a modest scale and in a believable style. And no damn windmill anywhere to be seen.


    Oh look, a false equivalence.


    Jazzed up because a movie audience wouldn't expect a prince to have a sparsely furnished room. And seeing no reason is precisely where you fail; you simply know no reason, because you don't think or bother to look things up so you just assume things. For example, commoners wouldn't even have chairs, they'd have benches or stools, and a simple trestle table.


    Well, Tolkien said different; he only made a bit nicer to be 'heroic' but certainly not that much richer, as his description of Meduseld attests. The Anglo-Saxons did have an exceptional eye for design and certain crafts, it was just that only wealthy people had such nice things. Aura of magic my backside, the Rohirrim are just ordinary Men and don't have any magic about them (again, if you'd read the books you should know that). Literally the only outright fantasy element in Rohan is the mearas, and nobody but the king and his sons (and cheeky Wizards) got to ride those.


    Oh look, more totally irrelevant ramblings of "how it should be", and no proof to back it up. I don't care that you dislike the game, that's your right to do so. I don't like it either in many aspects, but love it in others. What I'm trying to do is tell you that you are more than welcome to have your own thoughts on it, from YOUR INTERPRETATION of the books and YOUR ASSUMPTIONS of how it should look like, just as I am allowed to think otherwise and have my own. Because Tolkien NEVER wrote anything about how their furniture and houses outright looked like, which you have so many times failed to bring forth to light already. All you have is your own truly baffling narrow-minded point of view (even though I agree with you on the general house size) that very few seems to share here when it's all ABOUT A GAME. <<<<<--- Cram that thought into your thick head some time, because the only reason you are still arguing and moping about this is obviously because you cannot produce much else than speculation of a house's lore-appropiate interior and general dislike of how the game is made and how people play it, but somehow you desperately need to have the last word and narcissistically try to convince others that your view is the only one.

    I got news for you; it isn't, which pretty much every LOTR game and movie that has been made so far has proved over and over again. Everyone makes their own version in their heads or in their crafts, and everyone is allowed to do so. Even you, but you don't have to like it. Post a suggestion to make the game better and fit your preferences then, instead of pointlessly arguing like a singleminded simpleton here. Most people know better than to jamming things like this down other people's throats like a religious zealot, but some just never learn I suppose.
    Last edited by Heredryn; Sep 16 2020 at 07:29 AM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    Oh look, more totally irrelevant ramblings of "how it should be", and no proof to back it up. I don't care that you dislike the game, that's your right to do so. I don't like it either in many aspects, but love it in others. What I'm trying to do is tell you that you are more than welcome to have your own thoughts on it, from YOUR INTERPRETATION of the books and YOUR ASSUMPTIONS of how it should look like, just as I am allowed to think otherwise and have my own. Because Tolkien NEVER wrote anything about how their furniture and houses outright looked like, which you have so many times failed to bring forth to light already. All you have is your own truly baffling narrow-minded point of view (even though I agree with you on the general house size) that very few seems to share here when it's all ABOUT A GAME. <<<<<--- Cram that thought into your thick head some time, because the only reason you are still arguing and moping about this is obviously because you cannot produce much else than speculation of a house's lore-appropiate interior and general dislike of how the game is made and how people play it, but somehow you desperately need to have the last word and narcissistically try to convince others that your view is the only one.

    I got news for you; it isn't, which pretty much every LOTR game and movie that has been made so far has proved over and over again. Everyone makes their own version in their heads or in their crafts, and everyone is allowed to do so. Even you, but you don't have to like it. Post a suggestion to make the game better and fit your preferences then, instead of pointlessly arguing like a singleminded simpleton here. Most people know better than to jamming things like this down other people's throats like a religious zealot, but some just never learn I suppose.
    Oh, so even though what Tolkien describes is unmistakably meant to be early medieval in character for essentially everything that's said about the Rohirrim, according to you their houses and furniture would somehow magically be different (including being different to what's said about Meduseld), for no reason you can give. Baloney, as if just because you love something about the game it somehow can't be wrong; you've sure given no concrete argument for it, and all you can do is keep pretending all this is just something I've made up myself, when you're not BLARING IN ALL CAPS or trying to insult me, What's there in-game is just the 'Ren Faire' school of fantasy (a random assemblage of stuff from across a span of several centuries or more, without rhyme or reason) being plastered over something that's got a specific character which doesn't fit the bill for that in any way. So it''s a game, so what? Does every game have to fall back on such stereotypical fare? (A rhetorical question I've already answered for you: no, it evidently doesn't).

    What makes this funny is that I've been following coverage of the forthcoming Assassin's Creed Valhalla (i.e. historical fantasy) which is apparently meant to be set in 9th-century England and from what I've seen so far, while the architecture certainly isn't fully authentic (they've jazzed it up a bit, which was only to be expected) it actually looks pretty good. Like they seem to have taken note of what an Anglo-Saxon house looked like, for one thing. And that's a massive AAA title intended for the widest possible audience. What were you saying about games, again?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Oh, so even though what Tolkien describes is unmistakably meant to be early medieval in character for essentially everything that's said about the Rohirrim, according to you their houses and furniture would somehow magically be different (including being different to what's said about Meduseld), for no reason you can give. Baloney, as if just because you love something about the game it somehow can't be wrong; you've sure given no concrete argument for it, and all you can do is keep pretending all this is just something I've made up myself, when you're not BLARING IN ALL CAPS or trying to insult me, What's there in-game is just the 'Ren Faire' school of fantasy (a random assemblage of stuff from across a span of several centuries or more, without rhyme or reason) being plastered over something that's got a specific character which doesn't fit the bill for that in any way. So it''s a game, so what? Does every game have to fall back on such stereotypical fare? (A rhetorical question I've already answered for you: no, it evidently doesn't).

    What makes this funny is that I've been following coverage of the forthcoming Assassin's Creed Valhalla (i.e. historical fantasy) which is apparently meant to be set in 9th-century England and from what I've seen so far, while the architecture certainly isn't fully authentic (they've jazzed it up a bit, which was only to be expected) it actually looks pretty good. Like they seem to have taken note of what an Anglo-Saxon house looked like, for one thing. And that's a massive AAA title intended for the widest possible audience. What were you saying about games, again?
    1: I don't recall ever saying they *should* be so very different, but my point has always been that they are made so by design in LOTRO, and that we have to make the best of what they have presented for us. As a designer and craftsman IRL, I will always defend artistic freedom. I've surely never said that every other game have to follow that route. Every designer will make their own versions from whatever source material they have, and if we don't like it, we can make suggestions in hope to have something better. Please do so yourself, if you want to see something changed. This forum is all open for it.

    2: If I have somehow offended you, then I do apologize for the insults, even though I don't ever expect to get that same courtesy in return for all the insulting and belittlement you have hurled at me throughout the thread.

    3: I havn't said anything in particular about other games, only that they aren't very relevant to the discussion about LOTRO. If AC: Valhalla strives for more historical accuracy, bravo! I'm happily applauding that! Excellent design choice and I'm sure it will look fantastic. I'm not a big fan of the AC franchise in particular, but I might be tempted to try Valhalla. The trailer looked great.

    4: If you insist on embarrassing yourself like this and keep beating the now very gooey horse (poor thing), I would only suggest that you take your own advice from other threads you're involved in, and apply them here too. You've said some very good things at times, and even if taken out of context, the phrases alone might work pretty well here too.

    Just a few things like this (copy-pasted out of context and not posted in any particular order, just some things you have by chance said that even sounded sane);

    - "And yes, I'd agree zealotry isn't a goal to which anyone should aspire but that applies equally to zealotry of any stripe."
    - "It's reasonable interpretation, a balance."
    - "If we can't be sure that something was considered to be definitive by Tolkien himself then it can't be considered canon. It's not up to you, me, or anyone else."
    ((wonder where I heard something like that before...))
    - "this isn't real history and doesn't have the complexity of the real thing, it's a fantasy scenario"

    The very simple fact is that you're not Tolkien himself, and as such you are always allowed to voice your opinions, your views and your interpretations. You may even be right in many cases, but that alone isn't a reason to set yourself above others and loudly proclaim that everyone else is wrong for having another opinion. And as for the topic itself, this thread has completely gone off the intended tracks, since all we do is keep butting heads to no use, and I would very much appreciate if you would finally step down from your high horses and take the discussion elsewhere, since we won't ever get any further and only keep up this entirely pointless battle. I think it's about the third time I'm asking that now.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    1: I don't recall ever saying they *should* be so very different, but my point has always been that they are made so by design in LOTRO, and that we have to make the best of what they have presented for us. As a designer and craftsman IRL, I will always defend artistic freedom. I've surely never said that every other game have to follow that route. Every designer will make their own versions from whatever source material they have, and if we don't like it, we can make suggestions in hope to have something better. Please do so yourself, if you want to see something changed. This forum is all open for it.
    Hang on, you went on about houses as if they could be radically different from the hall and what it implies about their material culture, even though it's the king's own hall; that would be a foolish inconsistency, as Theoden King should have top-notch stuff. Anyway, you can try to defend Turbine's version of Meduseld etc. as 'artistic' but the way the Rohirrim look in the game is at odds with just how much the mead-halls and houses have been exaggerated. Their 'vision' is incoherent.

    3: I havn't said anything in particular about other games, only that they aren't very relevant
    They're relevant to the point I was making, which was that if other games, including AAA titles, can put more realistic details in front of a mass audience that shows what we have here isn't any sort of inevitable 'game' thing or 'fantasy' thing, it's purely a Turbine / SSG thing.

    Just a few things like this (copy-pasted out of context and not posted in any particular order, just some things you have by chance said that even sounded sane);

    - "And yes, I'd agree zealotry isn't a goal to which anyone should aspire but that applies equally to zealotry of any stripe."
    - "It's reasonable interpretation, a balance."
    - "If we can't be sure that something was considered to be definitive by Tolkien himself then it can't be considered canon. It's not up to you, me, or anyone else."
    ((wonder where I heard something like that before...))
    - "this isn't real history and doesn't have the complexity of the real thing, it's a fantasy scenario"
    Oh dear. First off, the real lore purists didn't even last as long as beta. If you think I'm a zealot, you ain't seen nothing. Secondly, I've been referring to Tolkien's own descriptions which are canon. Thirdly, canonically Tolkien chose to give the Rohirrim a material culture that;s slightly exaggerated over reality for a 'heroic' air, but not anything like so much as to be outright fantasy. (Unlike Turbine / SSG, who have very much turned it into obvious fantasy). The Rohirrim are just ordinary Men, nothing fancy like the Dunedain so their stuff is mundane. Not everything in a fantasy is meant to be fantastic; the only fantasy element associated with them is the mearas, Shadowfax and his kin, and even then Gandalf had 'borrowed' Shadowfax.

    And I don't have to be Tolkien himself to point to things he said, nor to point out what would be consistent with the picture he paints, thank you very much, because he made it really super-obvious what he was going for.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Hang on, you went on about houses as if they could be radically different from the hall and what it implies about their material culture, even though it's the king's own hall; that would be a foolish inconsistency, as Theoden King should have top-notch stuff. Anyway, you can try to defend Turbine's version of Meduseld etc. as 'artistic' but the way the Rohirrim look in the game is at odds with just how much the mead-halls and houses have been exaggerated. Their 'vision' is incoherent.


    They're relevant to the point I was making, which was that if other games, including AAA titles, can put more realistic details in front of a mass audience that shows what we have here isn't any sort of inevitable 'game' thing or 'fantasy' thing, it's purely a Turbine / SSG thing.


    Oh dear. First off, the real lore purists didn't even last as long as beta. If you think I'm a zealot, you ain't seen nothing. Secondly, I've been referring to Tolkien's own descriptions which are canon. Thirdly, canonically Tolkien chose to give the Rohirrim a material culture that;s slightly exaggerated over reality for a 'heroic' air, but not anything like so much as to be outright fantasy. (Unlike Turbine / SSG, who have very much turned it into obvious fantasy). The Rohirrim are just ordinary Men, nothing fancy like the Dunedain so their stuff is mundane. Not everything in a fantasy is meant to be fantastic; the only fantasy element associated with them is the mearas, Shadowfax and his kin, and even then Gandalf had 'borrowed' Shadowfax.

    And I don't have to be Tolkien himself to point to things he said, nor to point out what would be consistent with the picture he paints, thank you very much, because he made it really super-obvious what he was going for.
    Oh dear indeed. You just don't get it, not my plea for taking the discussion elsewhere (three times asked!), nor why I think you are so up in the blue.

    You have pointed out a few things, like the windows and the "probably no private chambers" and those I can agree with as canon, even though the word "probably" will by its very own nature put that following statement up for debate. LOTRO devs decided to design the game otherwise, and I can respect that decision too for personal reasons earlier stated, and I will adapt to it even if I also want many things changed. But you have consistantly failed to bring to light exactly what their furniture and general interior looked like, as I have asked about *from the very beginning*, and which is the reason we are still fighting about it.

    I'll take it again to humour you, even though I know you're only trolling now and trying to topple me over with your pointless arguments about "how it should be". It doesn't matter one squat what Tolkien said about drawing inspiration from anglo-saxon culture, "obvious" or no, unless there is a definitive description of exactly what he meant by it, and what he was aiming for. There is evidently not that much to go on, neither in the books nor his letters. Nor does it matter how much you point towards real-life examples, because Tolkien have said - as you have already pointed out - that he has enriched their culture. To what degree, we can't possibly know unless he described the rohirrim living standards in meticulous detail, which we both know he never did, to satisfy the need for a definitive answer of your now infamous phrase "how it should be" that you keep using without having much to back it up with.

    Let's look the very definition of "definitive", then.

    Cambridge defines the word "Definitive" as follows; firm, final, and complete; not to be questioned or changed

    Merriam-Webster defines it as follows; Serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation; authoritative and apparently; serving to define or specify precisely; serving as a perfect example

    Again, as far as we know (or that you have presented), Tolkien never defined precisely what he meant by enrichening the Rohirrim's culture, and especially not the standards of their furniture or housing. From all we know, they could have had very similar kind of furniture to the anglo-saxon, and they could've had more of it, less of it, very simple stuff, or things crafted with very intricate details, or all of this depending on their stature in the society, or in which area they lived in. The point is, we cannot say for certain how it looked like, because there is nothing specifically written about it. You can argue as much as you want about how you *think* it should look like, and it will always fall flat here. If you would have presented concrete proof however, that's another story.

    As things stand, you as a private person, with no professional ties to the author's works (that you have claimed, at least) is in no position to state, without question, that "this is how it should be" from what Tolkien intended the Rohirrim furniture and interiors to look like, or how many things a house could have. You can have your opinion and argue about plausability and credible appearances, however. And *that* I would've respected. But that you are continously trying to advocate your opinion as some form of absolute and definitive truth, however, is why this discussion will never end, until you get into your head that there is no definitive answer, unless you are still sitting on it and only keeping it hidden to present in the last minute and make a fool out of me (which is something I somehow wouldn't doubt you would do). But if not, all you have to do is add "in my opinion" to your thoughts about what something "should look like.", and this whole silly argument would never have happened in the first place. It's simply just not up to you to define something like this. Only Tolkien could, and he have sadly passed away long ago. Instead it will always up to us as readers to make up our own interpreation about that which isn't clearly written and stated. You as an obviously very literate person should get this, I hope, since you seem to follow everything else to the very letter. I just wonder how you justify doing that with something that isn't written in the first place. Oh wait, I have an idea after all, it's your interpretation of it, which isn't squat better than anyone else's.
    Last edited by Heredryn; Sep 17 2020 at 07:17 PM.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    even though I know you're only trolling now and trying to topple me over with your pointless arguments about "how it should be".
    This. Please, don't feed it and don't let it get to you. Your original topic is worthy of discussion and has been trampled. Sooo....

    Back to your very first, original post...I found the hook count to be surprising and hadn't checked myself. (regular vs premium) but holy moly...you are right! (7 gold for regular, nearly 500MC for the other...)

    I get there have to be limitations for item count (for the loading or whatever), but I have said before if they gave more general categories to items it would help a lot. (ie Interior or exterior...forget all the sub categories like small floor, large floor, thin, small, special etc.) We'd still use the same number that needed to load, but could potentially fill the space up with things that better suited our design style. (the best example for me is having far too many floor hooks and far too few furniture hooks.)

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    But you have consistantly failed to bring to light exactly what their furniture and general interior looked like, as I have asked about *from the very beginning*, and which is the reason we are still fighting about it.
    Making the rest of their stuff fit in with all the various things we do see (including Meduseld and its interior as an example of the sort of thing they build) would be a perfectly reasonable and normal thing to do for the sake of consistency and a coherent look. It's absolutely no different to do that for the Rohirrim than it would be for, say, Anglo-Saxons or Vikings, which is why I made a point of holding up Assassin's Creed Valhalla as a counter-example. You simply have no good argument for why their houses should be all that different. Kings always have pretty much the best stuff there is going, and Theoden has a mead-hall like something straight out of an epic saga rather than a palace. That really tells us everything we need to know; commoners' houses would simply represent a suitably down-market product of the same material culture.

    t doesn't matter one squat what Tolkien said about drawing inspiration from anglo-saxon culture, "obvious" or no, unless there is a definitive description of exactly what he meant by it, and what he was aiming for.
    He shows us in unmistakable terms exactly what sort of culture he imagined them having so if *you* think that something other than that would fit the bill it's up to *you* to argue why. Renaissance credenzas and the like are hardly an obvious addition to something that's avowedly meant to echo early medieval times. Since your argument recognises no sensible limits at all, by that token if Turbine had chosen to have Theoden sitting on a plush Victorian armchair and wearing a smoking jacket then that'd be all fine and dandy.

    Without a doubt it's meant to remind people of early medieval times (specifically the 'heroic age') and so anything that's definitively from much later times is a far from obvious addition and can't be expected to pass unremarked.

    Tolkien very evidently never defined precisely what he meant by enrichening the Rohirrim's culture
    And yet Theoden is still sitting in a mead-hall and his men are described as resembling early medieval warriors, et cetera. So not much; he says 'somewhat'. And in particular there's nothing in that to suggest deliberate anachronisms would be called for as far as the Rohirrim go because he doesn't include any himself. So again, this is a bad argument that recognises no limits.

    Tolkien painted a consistent picture based on stuff he loved, and you're just trying to make excuses for the game's wildly inconsistent and incoherent take on it. There's nothing clever about the game's interpretation, it's not some intriguing alternative vision: it's just a mess, it's all over the place.
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Sep 18 2020 at 04:08 AM.

  18. #43
    Lore Schmore.
    I don't want to live in the mud and thatch hovels depicted in the movies, and probably the books.

    To the OP, I also would like more hooks. Once I move some of the furniture together to make a "realistic" living space, there are wide open empty areas of the room, especially the big ones.

    Wish there were more small wall hooks, too. In my Shire kin house I have all my maps hung in a circle around two rooms - one for Eriador and one for Moria. Can't do that in Rohan house. I like maps.

    [edit] - And more floor (i.e. carpet) hooks too. All of the carpets are tiny, including the "large floor" carpets that don't cover the area implied by the large floor hook outlines. Might make the empty spaces more tolerable.

    I'd be interested in seeing any homey-looking Rohan interiors that others have if you would post them. I could use some ideas on how to make the best with the tools we have been given .
    Last edited by Occum; Sep 18 2020 at 08:43 PM.

  19. #44
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    I wouldn't want the houses made smaller, but we could definitely use some more hooks.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Making the rest of their stuff fit in with all the various things we do see (including Meduseld and its interior as an example of the sort of thing they build) would be a perfectly reasonable and normal thing to do for the sake of consistency and a coherent look. It's absolutely no different to do that for the Rohirrim than it would be for, say, Anglo-Saxons or Vikings, which is why I made a point of holding up Assassin's Creed Valhalla as a counter-example. You simply have no good argument for why their houses should be all that different. Kings always have pretty much the best stuff there is going, and Theoden has a mead-hall like something straight out of an epic saga rather than a palace. That really tells us everything we need to know; commoners' houses would simply represent a suitably down-market product of the same material culture.


    He shows us in unmistakable terms exactly what sort of culture he imagined them having so if *you* think that something other than that would fit the bill it's up to *you* to argue why. Renaissance credenzas and the like are hardly an obvious addition to something that's avowedly meant to echo early medieval times. Since your argument recognises no sensible limits at all, by that token if Turbine had chosen to have Theoden sitting on a plush Victorian armchair and wearing a smoking jacket then that'd be all fine and dandy.

    Without a doubt it's meant to remind people of early medieval times (specifically the 'heroic age') and so anything that's definitively from much later times is a far from obvious addition and can't be expected to pass unremarked.


    And yet Theoden is still sitting in a mead-hall and his men are described as resembling early medieval warriors, et cetera. So not much; he says 'somewhat'. And in particular there's nothing in that to suggest deliberate anachronisms would be called for as far as the Rohirrim go because he doesn't include any himself. So again, this is a bad argument that recognises no limits.

    Tolkien painted a consistent picture based on stuff he loved, and you're just trying to make excuses for the game's wildly inconsistent and incoherent take on it. There's nothing clever about the game's interpretation, it's not some intriguing alternative vision: it's just a mess, it's all over the place.

    Nope, nope, and nope - and nope again. You started the argument about the furniture and interiors, so it's entirely up to you to provide the unmistakable evidence of what you are suggesting. I have defended the designer's rights to do as they please, not everything they have actually designed. If you want to downtalk the idea and design of the credenzas and drawers for example, or the game's design of furniture in general, that's entirely your business, not mine. I don't care whatsoever about your thoughts on that subject.

    Until you release an appropiate detailed and accurate description of exactly how a Rohan house looks like (not an anglo-saxon building since they aren't the same people); such as what manner of wood they used in their furniture, if it was dyed/painted and in what color(s), possible carved decorations, how their tables looked and how many chairs/benches around it, how many hinges a door or chest had, or just how many items there actually were in a house for example, you simply don't have any definitive answer and only your own opinion of how it should look like, which is based on your imagination when you read the texts, and which is something I don't give a single damn about. I want the cold, hard Tolkien facts only, preferably straight from the books. Give it or bust, it's really that simple. Maybe too hard to understand for some, I suppose.

    Stop feeding the troll was an excellent suggestion though, that I probably should have taken a long time ago. For a fourth (!!!) and final time, I will ask you to take this pointless discussion elsewhere in case you still need to feed that ego of yours, so please stop pestering my thread since you're only talking in circles and wrongfully laying the burden of evidence on me, when it's only you who can't put out any real evidence besides your own opinions and interpretations of what Tolkien actually meant.

    Might I suggest you do something more constructive, like, I don't know, maybe reading a book? Perhaps you can still find that elusive description somewhere. Bye now, loremaster! And please don't come back without that accurate and definitive description of a proper Rohan house

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    Nope, nope, and nope - and nope again. You started the argument about the furniture and interiors, so it's entirely up to you to provide the unmistakable evidence of what you are suggesting. I have defended the designer's rights to do as they please, not everything they have actually designed. If you want to downtalk the idea and design of the credenzas and drawers for example, or the game's design of furniture in general, that's entirely your business, not mine. I don't care whatsoever about your thoughts on that subject.
    The evidence is right there. Tolkien imagined an early medieval style culture and objected when a movie studio sent him a proposed treatment of it that included various obvious anachronisms. You've seen the quote. What did Tolkien say, again?

    "Z does not seem to appreciate this. I hope the artists do. But he and they have really only to follow what is said, and not alter it to suit their fancy (out of place)."

    And what we have here is no different; the devs here have altered it to suit their fancy, it is out of place (by many hundreds of years, not just slightly), and that's the very thing Tolkien was unhappy with back then. Much as he was unhappy with the movie guys treating lembas as 'food concentrate' (the game's also very casual about it) and would-be comedic details like Merry and Pippin being found "munching ridiculously long sandwiches" at Isengard (the game has the likes of shrew-stomping by way of equivalent foolishness). That's the sort of company the devs are keeping; same damn thing, except it's a modern-day American game studio doing it rather than an American movie company from back in the late 1950s.

    Whether the houses might resemble those of the Anglo-Saxons in style or look more Viking, or Frankish, or whatever in that ballpark wasn't the issue, it's that Tolkien was being insistent on period details and that was the mark he was aiming at. There is no doubt whatsoever as to what he actually intended to evoke or what that implies across the board. That you're still prattling on about chairs and tables shows you don't get it.

    You might try watching the scene from the movie where Aragorn & Co. arrive at Edoras: just look at the houses, and note what you *don't* see. Funny, that... where could they possibly have got their ideas from? Same goes for the scene where a village in the Westfold is shown being attacked. If other people can intuit that, and put it in a major movie for the whole world to see (a movie we all loved to bits, at the time) then all this is really just you being a numpty.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Bla bla bla nonsense

    Bring the definitive quotes about the furniture, you numpty. No hard quotes, no evidence. Only your assumptions and interpretation. Go back to your bridge, if you somehow still fit under there.


    Quote Originally Posted by MerryCav View Post
    This. Please, don't feed it and don't let it get to you. Your original topic is worthy of discussion and has been trampled. Sooo....

    Back to your very first, original post...I found the hook count to be surprising and hadn't checked myself. (regular vs premium) but holy moly...you are right! (7 gold for regular, nearly 500MC for the other...)

    I get there have to be limitations for item count (for the loading or whatever), but I have said before if they gave more general categories to items it would help a lot. (ie Interior or exterior...forget all the sub categories like small floor, large floor, thin, small, special etc.) We'd still use the same number that needed to load, but could potentially fill the space up with things that better suited our design style. (the best example for me is having far too many floor hooks and far too few furniture hooks.)
    I know, I was totally surprised myself by that. Right when I started out decorating, it felt like something was off in the Kingstead Meadows house. I knew that I could put in a decent number of Large labelled furniture in a Bree house, and I somehow expected to get even more in the Rohan one, especially since it's about 5 times larger. But when I moved my things over, something just felt awfully off and I started counting the thin, small and large slots. It was not a pleasant surprise to find out that they were about the same, and even fewer Small hooks. In later times I've found out that the Eastfold Hills have another different (cosier) layout, and many more hooks inside. I still havn't done a total count, but my assumption is that the Barns in Kingstead have taken over all the hooks that should've been in the main houses. And since it's wide, open spaces in there, it's impossible to do much creative work with it. No matter what one do, it just still feels empty, barren and kind of lifeless? One solution is of course to leave the other floors completely empty and drag the hooks through the floors to get a few more, but that takes away all the point of having the other floors in the first place - hence my suggestion to make the houses a tad bit smaller in case we can't get more hooks because of server capability.

    Also I get a feeling that the doors and doorways feel kind of huge, like they have just grown exponentially. For me personally, shrinking the indoor design to 2/3 or just 3/4 of the original size would've been much better but I understand that's not everyone's fancy. I just prefer the smaller, cozier dwellings, much like many of the landscape Rohan houses are constructed, with smaller rooms here and there and plenty of shelves, barrels, tables and such around. Many of them are really beautiful and well done to make up a home, and that's what I was so dearly hoping to do

    I hope a dev might some day have a look at this problem, and find a solution that works for most of us since we are, in fact, paying a lot of money and mithril for this. It's really not fair in any way that a very small (standard)Deluxe house bought for a few Gold have in some case *more* indoor hooks than a Premium house bought with expensive mithril, and it's definitely not much fun to decorate when the room for creativity is so severly limited. I do completely agree with your about making the hooks more universal too, of course. It could've solved some of the problems we face. So many nice items, so little space...

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I wouldn't want the houses made smaller, but we could definitely use some more hooks.

    I was a little late to the Rohan Housing party, but after having bought a house (at the top of the hill in the Eastfold region), I've found the same problem. Rooms are just empty, and you can't create a 'house' feel anywhere near as well as you can in the Bree-land homestead, for example. There's one room which has only three hooks (one on the floor and two on the walls) what are you meant to do with that?!

    At the moment, I'm leaving my Eastfold House empty (although with a full yard - plenty of hooks outside) and waiting for this issue to be resolved.

    Given that we've paid for the houses already, it surely can't hurt them to add a few more internal hooks (increased to the same density as the Bree-land deluxe houses).
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    Bring the definitive quotes about the furniture, you numpty. No hard quotes, no evidence. Only your assumptions and interpretation. Go back to your bridge, if you somehow still fit under there.
    Oh right. Tolkien really lays it on thick with that "heroic age" shtick, and yet you can't see how that very concept would naturally exclude things that only came along much, much later? Just because you don't know what he was on about doesn't make it wrong for me to take him at his word.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist View Post
    ... I'm leaving my Eastfold House empty (although with a full yard - plenty of hooks outside) and waiting for this issue to be resolved.
    Agreed. I set my Eastfold Hills Rohan house yard up with a theater area and backyard barbeque area. Other stuff too. Very happy with that.
    And there is one room in the basement where I could set up all of my crafting equipment and bank/supplier. I don't think too much about how I manage to have an oven and forge in the basement, I imagine some vents that I can't see. It looks like the barn in the Kingstead Meadows homes could serve the same purpose.

    But the in-between part (the main house) is tough to make work with so few hooks. So empty.

 

 
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