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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Oh right. Tolkien really lays it on thick with that "heroic age" shtick, and yet you can't see how that very concept would naturally exclude things that only came along much, much later? Just because you don't know what he was on about doesn't make it wrong for me to take him at his word.
    No, it doesn't make you wrong, but it is only interpretation.

    Books are far more able to describe and portray for a reader than a movie is able to visualise, so movies tend to be more elaborate with details and scenery to captivate the viewer, because movies don't have the massive myriad of words that are in the book version, they only have a script. The game is much the same.

    500MC is a hefty price tag for what is basically a small area of space in the game world, for players to decorate and show off their spoils from Middle Earth. I very much doubt anyone would have paid that price tag for a small, sparse, wooden, single room dwelling including a few benches and a simple table. You may not like how elaborate they seem compared to your perception of what was written in the books, and for that reason, you're probably 500MC better off. It's optional. You need never visit, let alone own a house in one of these homesteads. It's a million miles away and completely out of sight, if you need it to be. The same can be said for playing the game, or watching the movies if you don't like what is portrayed in them. They aren't the books, and never will be, because neither of them are catering - to readers.

    I love your passion for the literature, it's admirable, even if overly fierce and intense on times. But I don't understand what you are actually fighting for with this particular subject. Rohan housing is the latest beefy, hyped up fluff in the game, which they were obviously going to slap a beefy price tag onto, in order to make it pay off. It wouldn't sell in your perceived rendition of it, because its a product for gamers, not readers. No player is going to pay to read about their house, or imagine what they want it to look like. They have to see it and be able to use it.

    I sometimes wonder, after reading a long thread that you have participated in which involves lore, what kind of experience you have in game, perhaps when walking through a main hub or visiting a festival. How painful that must be when you see all the crazy things we have in game. Pets, horses wearing antlers, the occasional player dressed up as a rock or playing golf with a chicken, hobbits riding horses or swimming through lakes, rune keepers or (insert any of many other things here).

    Hubby stopped playing the game after Mordor, for a few reasons, but the main one being, "the ring has gone, it's not Lord of the Rings anymore, it's just mainly made up stuff that doesn't relate properly". He knows that the game doesn't, and cannot work like the book, so made his choice to - stick to the book. He's not interested in trying to get the game to conform to his ideas (based on the books) of how the game should play out. He knows that won't work, for a game.

    MMOs in general are notorious for attracting players that love all that jazz. LOTRO is slightly different in that it also attracts players that just want the story of Middle Earth, without the nonsense. For those players, they have put in place as many controls as they can to make it more acceptable for them. They can turn off pet visuals, effect visuals etc, they need not visit areas where they know they are likely to see "crazy" happening, for example, an instanced homestead.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Sep 20 2020 at 05:23 AM.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Heredryn View Post
    but my assumption is that the Barns in Kingstead have taken over all the hooks that should've been in the main houses.
    Yes, the barn does take some interior hooks away from the main house. (I think the 'for sale' sign lists total interior hooks but states they are divided between two interiors. Something like that.)

    I bought a Mead Hall in Kingstead at first, and then sold it and ate the partial mithril loss to move to Eastfold for this reason. The extra basement hooks can be dragged upstairs and help fill in the main room a bit (I then used just a few hooks left to decorate the basement..making each little space a simple bedroom, inn style)

    I have a house in Kingstead and Eastfold as well. (I'm a house junkie, lol) Eastfold has some odd upper levels with a few extra hooks as well as more basement room again that can be moved/dragged/borrowed to help. Again Kingstead loses some interior hooks to the barn but at least has less space to decorate overall inside. (I've not begun to decorate Kingstead yet, will see how it goes!)

    Cheers
    Last edited by MerryCav; Sep 20 2020 at 08:42 AM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    No, it doesn't make you wrong, but it is only interpretation.
    It's well-informed interpretation, though, and it's not just mine. Of course people want more than a small, sparse single-room dwelling, but in this context 'premier' housing can only ever really imply a hall, not a big house with assorted rooms and more than one floor. What we have here is like someone's killed Rohan, skinned it and stuffed it any old how; it's anything but lifelike and has an expression of pained surprise.

    People's expectations are weird. Forget all this early-medieval business for a minute, and imagine you're at a royal banquet some time during the 15th century, Late Medieval with all the trimmings. Under the expensive tableware and fancy tablecloth you'd still find a trestle table, and the nobles and clergy would still be sitting on benches or settles rather than individual chairs. The king can have his own chair, if you like, but that wasn't always a thing. You can see all this in period illustrations (you can see the bottom of the trestles below the edge of the tablecloth) and that's hundreds and hundreds of years further on, not just slightly. You have to go well into the Renaissance (Tudor times) before you'd see all the things that people casually expect to find and you shouldn't expect every game to do that. Really, what you've said there adds up to little more than "it's a game" with the implication that games all have to provide the same set of stuff. They don't.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It's well-informed interpretation, though, and it's not just mine. Of course people want more than a small, sparse single-room dwelling, but in this context 'premier' housing can only ever really imply a hall, not a big house with assorted rooms and more than one floor. What we have here is like someone's killed Rohan, skinned it and stuffed it any old how; it's anything but lifelike and has an expression of pained surprise.
    But that's exactly what we have, a big old house with assorted rooms and more than one floor. What premium housing implies, doesn't really come into it at this point. It's already launched and sold well. I doubt it would have sold so well, had it not been as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post

    People's expectations are weird. Forget all this early-medieval business for a minute, and imagine you're at a royal banquet some time during the 15th century, Late Medieval with all the trimmings. Under the expensive tableware and fancy tablecloth you'd still find a trestle table, and the nobles and clergy would still be sitting on benches or settles rather than individual chairs. The king can have his own chair, if you like, but that wasn't always a thing. You can see all this in period illustrations (you can see the bottom of the trestles below the edge of the tablecloth) and that's hundreds and hundreds of years further on, not just slightly. You have to go well into the Renaissance (Tudor times) before you'd see all the things that people casually expect to find and you shouldn't expect every game to do that. Really, what you've said there adds up to little more than "it's a game" with the implication that games all have to provide the same set of stuff. They don't.
    I'm not arguing against your theory, in fact, I agree with most of your interpretation of this. So yes, what I said is basically "it's a game", because that's exactly what it is, and despite a game not having to provide the same set of stuff as all other games, to sell a premium fluff feature to the masses, it probably should. Put it this way, while I think you may be correct in what Rohan houses should look like, I wouldn't have bought one, if they had looked that way. I don't play the game to get the same set of feelings and reactions as I get from reading the books, because, it's a game, and with that, comes all sorts of things that shouldn't necessarily be there. Some I dislike more than others, but none make me want to stop playing or change the game to fit better the books. I know that what I may dislike brings in revenue. I can turn off or avoid what I don't want to see.

    So yes, I would like more hooks to help furnish the big old house with assorted rooms and more than one floor that I have already bought. The best thing is though, you never have to look at it. For all intent and purposes, unless you actively seek it out, it may as well not even exist.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    But that's exactly what we have, a big old house with assorted rooms and more than one floor. What premium housing implies, doesn't really come into it at this point. It's already launched and sold well. I doubt it would have sold so well, had it not been as it is.
    ...without the extra hooks you'd prefer. If you can comment on something after it's been implemented, so can I.

    I'm not arguing against your theory, in fact, I agree with most of your interpretation of this. So yes, what I said is basically "it's a game", because that's exactly what it is, and despite a game not having to provide the same set of stuff as all other games, to sell a premium fluff feature to the masses, it probably should.
    In which case, 'premium' housing as a concept just didn't (and couldn't ever) really work for Rohan as anything over than a cash-grab. However, I would say that authenticity can be very compelling in its own right.

    Put it this way, while I think you may be correct in what Rohan houses should look like, I wouldn't have bought one, if they had looked that way. I don't play the game to get the same set of feelings and reactions as I get from reading the books, because, it's a game, and with that, comes all sorts of things that shouldn't necessarily be there. Some I dislike more than others, but none make me want to stop playing or change the game to fit better the books. I know that what I may dislike brings in revenue. I can turn off or avoid what I don't want to see.
    And most characters wouldn't want to live there for that same reason, so that's fair enough. But if you wouldn't want Rohan's genuine, err, 'old-world rustic charm' but just what amounts to a vaguely 'Rohanesque' home from home with all the usual comforts then you're playing tourist, as it were, and pointedly insisting on the whole thing being way more fake than it needs to be. Not very adventurous, even in gaming terms.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    In which case, 'premium' housing as a concept just didn't (and couldn't ever) really work for Rohan as anything over than a cash-grab. However, I would say that authenticity can be very compelling in its own right.
    That's precisely right. It is a cash-grab, even if its a fun one I've myself much indulged in.

    They should put a sign outside of each homestead: "If you're looking for Lore, I'd turn back if I were you." It doesn't - have - to be that way. I agree with you that authenticity would have been more compelling here. But it is what it is; its what we've got, and they won't be changing that anytime soon. I sure wish they'd make some improvements, like making the Classical homesteads feel more part of the surrounding landscape than artificial "boxes," and maybe they will, maybe they won't; who knows?

    Look at how silly the Cape of Belfalas was with its gaudy game glitz Gondor with far too many giant stone heads and swan wings and other silliness, and the premise for its existence especially. Basically, the inhabitants flee because the Corsairs are coming, and the Corsairs magically stop pillaging and burning as they pass the Cape of Belfalas until they reach Dor-en-Ernil for no apparent reason whatsoever (ever notice the burning ruins on the West Gondor and Central Gondor sides? Yeah, that's totally bonkers!). Somehow, even with that as a given, the original inhabitants never once come before King Elessar to plead for their ancestral lands to be restored to them because, well, we're apparently Aragorn's best friends now, and that was a lot of Mithril Coins!

    Granted, Cape of Belfalas is also my favorite in-game homestead. It can be my favorite while I can also recognize that the story behind it is complete and total bonkers. I have the power, as a player, to determine what I do for fun, including if I recognize that the story behind that fun is completely silly and not altogether worth taking seriously lore-wise. Do I wish the architecture reflected the story better? Sure. Would I shave-off all those bearded heads and gaudy swan-wings all over Dol Amroth? In a heartbeat. The Swan was a lovely symbol in the lore that the game turned into "OH VALAR NO NOT MORE SWAN WINGS!!!" Hahahaha. Its so easy to take this stuff seriously; I prefer to take a big laugh and call-out the rubbish for what it is, while also laughing my head off and still having fun with it!

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Phantion; Sep 20 2020 at 04:24 PM.
    Phantion no longer has a character named Phantion in-game. He transferred to Landroval.

    .

  7. #57
    Definitely +1 on the housing hooks, and while we are at it, some of the hook designations on the vendor furniture need fixing. They gave us these nice pantry shelves and cellar shelves--then made them large furniture hooks, instead of large wall hooks. It would really help the cellars in the Kingstead houses to be able to use the wall hooks for shelves.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    ...without the extra hooks you'd prefer. If you can comment on something after it's been implemented, so can I.
    Oh, I'm not saying you can't comment, you fire away. I just don't understand why you do is all. You're clearly not interested in this product, and I highly doubt they will consider making it a lesser product for those that purchased it, based on the opinion of someone that isn't interested in it. Yes, it came with less hooks than I'd like, so hence, I join the thread that asks for more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post

    In which case, 'premium' housing as a concept just didn't (and couldn't ever) really work for Rohan as anything over than a cash-grab. However, I would say that authenticity can be very compelling in its own right.
    There's no doubt about it being a cash grab, and I agree, authenticity can be compelling in it's own right, but that's not what this product is. As I said already, I don't play a game to get the same experience as reading the book, and when it comes to a house, I want all the functions that a house brings. That means being able to place the housing items I have accumulated through game play into it. If it doesn't have that function (which it wouldn't if authentic) then it wouldn't fit the purpose it was bought for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post

    And most characters wouldn't want to live there for that same reason, so that's fair enough. But if you wouldn't want Rohan's genuine, err, 'old-world rustic charm' but just what amounts to a vaguely 'Rohanesque' home from home with all the usual comforts then you're playing tourist, as it were, and pointedly insisting on the whole thing being way more fake than it needs to be. Not very adventurous, even in gaming terms.
    I play the game in many ways, including tourist mode. It all depends where I am in game and what I'm doing. When at my house, I apply purpose, and that means it's a convenience rather than story. I use it as a space to put things, much like a vault or inventory, but where things are on display. Authentic, with it's limitations wouldn't work for that purpose. It doesn't matter that it isn't that adventurous, because that's not what the purchase is about.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Oh, I'm not saying you can't comment, you fire away. I just don't understand why you do is all. You're clearly not interested in this product, and I highly doubt they will consider making it a lesser product for those that purchased it, based on the opinion of someone that isn't interested in it. Yes, it came with less hooks than I'd like, so hence, I join the thread that asks for more.
    The thread asks for either more hooks or for the houses to be made smaller, so it's not as if the subject of making significant changes and making things in some way less than they currently are hadn't been aired. The original reason I joined the thread was because the OP tried to play the lore card (something that made no sense even in game terms); if it had been solely about hooks rather than pretending that what he wanted was somehow 'right' for more than purely gameplay reasons then I wouldn't have posted.

    There's no doubt about it being a cash grab, and I agree, authenticity can be compelling in it's own right, but that's not what this product is. As I said already, I don't play a game to get the same experience as reading the book, and when it comes to a house, I want all the functions that a house brings. That means being able to place the housing items I have accumulated through game play into it. If it doesn't have that function (which it wouldn't if authentic) then it wouldn't fit the purpose it was bought for.
    The point of an RPG is to evoke the feeling of being in a different place, time etc. for storytelling purposes, and whether you want it to be quite like that of the books or not you have to admit that Rohan is meant to project something different to, say, the Shire or Gondor. Expecting the devs to provide the same thing everywhere and never reflect any meaningful qualitative difference in the experience goes against that. Living in Rohan should mean roughing it, relatively speaking; something of an adventure in and of itself. So, as you asked why I posted, I have to ask you a similar question: if you don't value Rohan for its evocatively rugged character, why are you even interested in it?

    I play the game in many ways, including tourist mode. It all depends where I am in game and what I'm doing. When at my house, I apply purpose, and that means it's a convenience rather than story. I use it as a space to put things, much like a vault or inventory, but where things are on display. Authentic, with it's limitations wouldn't work for that purpose. It doesn't matter that it isn't that adventurous, because that's not what the purchase is about.
    Again, if that's all you want, why Rohan in particular? And as an aside, playing tourist in RPGs isn't good for such games as a genre as it encourages game companies to build nothing but tourist traps.

    Also, I can't help but think this is your inner hobbit talking, so to speak, because you sound rather like Bilbo: "We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things!"

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The thread asks for either more hooks or for the houses to be made smaller, so it's not as if the subject of making significant changes and making things in some way less than they currently are hadn't been aired. The original reason I joined the thread was because the OP tried to play the lore card (something that made no sense even in game terms); if it had been solely about hooks rather than pretending that what he wanted was somehow 'right' for more than purely gameplay reasons then I wouldn't have posted.
    Fair point. Thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post

    The point of an RPG is to evoke the feeling of being in a different place, time etc. for storytelling purposes, and whether you want it to be quite like that of the books or not you have to admit that Rohan is meant to project something different to, say, the Shire or Gondor. Expecting the devs to provide the same thing everywhere and never reflect any meaningful qualitative difference in the experience goes against that. Living in Rohan should mean roughing it, relatively speaking; something of an adventure in and of itself. So, as you asked why I posted, I have to ask you a similar question: if you don't value Rohan for its evocatively rugged character, why are you even interested in it?
    I agree, that Rohan should be very different to the Shire, or Gondor, for example. I didn't consider Gondor houses, even though IMO, they fit better with the books, but that is because I don't like the coldness of stone houses, or the tomb-like look and feel that I think the neighbourhoods brought. I like wooden houses, and I like natural environments like woodland, grass and mountains in general throughout the game. So it was simply a case of the materials used and location that made me wait for Rohan housing. There will be no elaborate stone columns or detailed tiled flooring in my house. Though I have put a simple gravel/mud floor in the basement, the rest will predominantly be wood. My full preference would be for a Beorning style house, but seeing as it took them years to bring the Rohan neighbourhoods, I decided it would be too long to wait to see if they ever do that. I think the current new features of adding pets and stuff into housing hooks would suit that much better. Bees, goats, horses etc would fit there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post

    Again, if that's all you want, why Rohan in particular? And as an aside, playing tourist in RPGs isn't good for such games as a genre as it encourages game companies to build nothing but tourist traps.

    Also, I can't help but think this is your inner hobbit talking, so to speak, because you sound rather like Bilbo: "We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things!"
    I don't think tourist play time contributes much to dev ideas. Those are driven mainly by what will be well received by the majority of players and the income it can generate as a result. My main is a human, though I do love hobbits in game and play quite a few of them. I tend to RP those more so than my elves or humans, but I'm not really a massively serious role player. I do try to keep to naming convention for most part, and I use a lot of emotes/greetings to engage with others. While I do fully appreciate the RPG component of the game, it also has an MMO component, and I play mostly for that side of things. Raids and metas on the instance tabs bring fruits that we can put on display, and that is my main use of a house.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  11. #61
    For me the problem is not necessarily that there are not enough hooks (although there are never enough hooks in any housing) it's the designation of them and the items.

    The food shelves should have been wall.
    At one time the fire pits were floor items which were changed to furniture.

    This alone would have left 5 spots for actual furniture. Then the barn would do with 2-3 less hooks. These 7-8 extra furniture house hooks would have helped a lot filling the empty space.

    On a different note, why weren't the crafting stations sold separate?
    The horses should move like the stable horses.
    The lower part of wall surfaces doesn't show.
    Last edited by wispsong; Sep 21 2020 at 08:46 AM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I agree, that Rohan should be very different to the Shire, or Gondor, for example. I didn't consider Gondor houses, even though IMO, they fit better with the books, but that is because I don't like the coldness of stone houses, or the tomb-like look and feel that I think the neighbourhoods brought. I like wooden houses, and I like natural environments like woodland, grass and mountains in general throughout the game. So it was simply a case of the materials used and location that made me wait for Rohan housing.
    Fair enough if you wanted something cosier than those 'tombs'. Talk about the Houses of the Dead.

    The Beorning houses, though.... they *should* be more basic than houses in Rohan and some of that's to be seen in the interior of Grimbeorn's lodge in-game, but the outside of that looks really twee and there are all those windows. Makes zero sense. Some of the small houses have chimneys, which is the last thing they should have (particularly as the lodge has a fire-pit). The art direction is all over the place.

    I don't think tourist play time contributes much to dev ideas.
    By 'tourist' I meant someone who's overwhelmingly focused on the gameplay at the expense of the atmosphere, who expects a familiar set of things to be there and doesn't want to have to adapt to what you might call local conditions (lore, in other words). If the devs favour that you get 'tourist traps' like the Rohan premium housing, which don't look the part and are akin to holiday homes built sort-of in the local style but not really.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Fair enough if you wanted something cosier than those 'tombs'. Talk about the Houses of the Dead.

    The Beorning houses, though.... they *should* be more basic than houses in Rohan and some of that's to be seen in the interior of Grimbeorn's lodge in-game, but the outside of that looks really twee and there are all those windows. Makes zero sense. Some of the small houses have chimneys, which is the last thing they should have (particularly as the lodge has a fire-pit). The art direction is all over the place.


    By 'tourist' I meant someone who's overwhelmingly focused on the gameplay at the expense of the atmosphere, who expects a familiar set of things to be there and doesn't want to have to adapt to what you might call local conditions (lore, in other words). If the devs favour that you get 'tourist traps' like the Rohan premium housing, which don't look the part and are akin to holiday homes built sort-of in the local style but not really.

    Yeah, I know what you mean by tourist mode. I still don't think it has such a huge impact on the overall game as you though. Premium housing for example, is instanced and tucked away where it can't impose much on those that do not want to see it. Though, Rohan was put out in landscape and visible which I found just weird. Maybe to attract players to take a lookie at the latest jazzy fluff (which attracts a lot of players). Yes, a Beorning house would have all of the same problems, and no doubt, they would bypass a lot of them for the sake of making it attractive from a selling point of view. But it would have been a choice I probably would have made, over Rohan housing.

    With regard to the thread though, we have what we have with Rohan housing, and while I'm not likely to furnish it much (furnish as in how I would furnish a house) I would like to see enough hooks to place achievement trophies and the like. I probably won't even put the usual things in it, like a bed or table. It's not really a house from my perspective, it's more of a storage area for collections I've made through playing the game.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.


  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    For me the problem is not necessarily that there are not enough hooks (although there are never enough hooks in any housing) it's the designation of them and the items.
    Indeed, the designation of housing item types is a fine grained and restrictive system, that is prone to error and discrepancies for every new batch of items added. A combination of both adding more housing hooks, and simplifying the type system would be ideal! However, adding housing hooks would be a fair amount of work for someone to go and specifically place new hooks types in each of the housing models.

    This is why I feel that simplifying the housing item types would be a more easily achievable change. I made a thread about how the team might go about simplifying the existing system to be more flexible that should work within the existing system (read: easier to implement as is uses the existing type system, opposed to adding a new system or more hooks to each individual house type)

    It's a longish post, but if all you housing enthusiasts have some time, I'd appreciate any input/ support for this suggestion:
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ing-item-types

 

 
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