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  1. #1

    Bring back Shield Gambit Healing!

    Hi, as the title suggests, bring back Shield-Gambit-Healings.

    E.g.: Conviction with Lvl 100 Gear heals the same amount as with Lvl 130 Gear. There is simply NO scaling for Tactical Mastery at the moment on the Warden to improve the healing of shield gambits.

  2. #2
    I wonder how hard it would be for the devs to add tact heal rating (upgradeable by starlits) to the javelin in addition to the dps rating. If they could, that would make it easier on them in the future since heals would scale up naturally through future expansions at the same rate other classes' heals do too.

    (Could do the same with LM staffs while they're at it, so Staff Strike and standing close enough for autoattacks is worth a damn again)
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Gunnart, Guardian

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,980
    I'm curious, what is the maximum amount you could heal with Conviction if you stacked Tactical Mastery and Outgoing Healing essences?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurallor View Post
    I'm curious, what is the maximum amount you could heal with Conviction if you stacked Tactical Mastery and Outgoing Healing essences?
    Should be just a 70% increase, actually quite a lot less considering there's legacies that affect it. There's barely any difference in usefulness of the skill anyways, healing 5k vs 8k every 3 secs is irrelevant when any single passive bolster from mini does double or triple that. If they want to take the road of making warden heals be effective they should scale the same way healer heals scaled since lvl 85 (something like x20) , at lvl 85 you could self heal similar to what a healer could do so that would mean wardens heals should be around 30-40 hps on self, like 6 times what wardens self heal nowadays, I simply doubt they are taking that approach for wardens anymore, not even half of that will be given, they simply don't know how to balance tanking.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    483
    I still have Shield Gambit Healing as an ILI legacy, so that at least scales up with scrolls whenever the legacy cap increases. Did you mean specifically that tactical mastery doesn't affect it?

  6. #6
    unfortunately, simply adding tactical mastery to the javelin will not fix this.

    A simple way to look at it is this: (base healing rating * coefficient) * outgoing healing

    Adding tactical mastery will increase your outgoing healing slightly, but it'll stay the same % (and it'll be a low %) every expansion. It won't scale up heals.

    Now, if you added tactical healing rating as is currently on the lore masters book ILI... that miiiight work. But it will depend on how the base healing rating for conviction & shield line gambits is calculated.


    It would be nice to have those heals mean something again, and I am in favor of trying to get them scaled on up. However I do not believe that it will resolve the primary issue with warden tanking atm (we go squish) so it would simply be a nice qol.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    31
    If you are going against one enemy, shield spear gambit line will easily keep you healed. If you are going against multiple enemies, Resolution will keep you alive. My warden heals for about 20k off each mob with resolution. If I have 5 mobs on me, I heal for 100k every few seconds. I don't even use conviction at all for heals, just for crit defense and tac mit.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,083
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceRaider View Post
    If you are going against one enemy, shield spear gambit line will easily keep you healed. If you are going against multiple enemies, Resolution will keep you alive. My warden heals for about 20k off each mob with resolution. If I have 5 mobs on me, I heal for 100k every few seconds. I don't even use conviction at all for heals, just for crit defense and tac mit.
    Landscape maybe, but bosses? even in 3 and 6 mans shield spear line heals are super weak and don't keep you alive. My warden is fully stacked with vitality essences and defensive gear, just under 800k morale unbuffed, phys mits capped and tact mits close to capped unbuffed, so basically mits are all capped with self-buffs all the time. I've tried stacking self-heals tier 1/2/4 and keeping up conviction on boss fights and it really doesn't feel like it makes much difference. Our best heal is 18k every 4 seconds, right? 5 pulses over 24 seconds means 90k morale in about half a minute, while each boss hit in stair can take you down several hundred thousand in morale.

    I think it just makes more sense to rely on a healer to work their a@@ off to keep you alive, spam defensive buffs, and light aoes for aggro, extra buffs/debuffs, and some DPS.
    Erendil 50 Hunter Rank 7, Mavellen 45 Warden; Officers of Disciples
    Ragaroth Warleader Rank 7, Marhawk Stalker Rank 5; Members of Cuddle Squad
    Other Characters: Arthilius - Captain, Arthilias - Guardian,
    Claireth - Runekeeper, Harbuckle - Burglar, Lothlirien - Hunter

  9. #9
    Here's a really novel idea - one that's never been done on this class before - that might just actually help to fix wardens.

    1. Dramatically increase the base healing of *all* heal gambits, and add the safeguard heal back. Make it so that continually spamming/upkeeping *all the heals* is the equivalent of having a full time healer.

    2. To compensate this overpoweredness, dramatically increase the power cost of all gambit shield heals so that 3-4 rotations of this will completely drain the wardens power.

    3. To stop wardens from doing this infinitely with Dark before the dawn in between the rotation, make it so that dark before the dawn gives a huge burst of power (i.e. 15%) instead of a power over time, BUT make it so that dark before the dawn can only be used when the warden is at 50% morale.

    BONUS

    I think also, that exultation of battle, resolution and the other one from that line should also be substantially buffed to help make wardens more resilient when tanking lots of mobs. Would help if these gambits had added threat bonuses so that defiant challenge was not necessary in order to gain and keep aggro.

    What does everyone think?????????

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    3,664
    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    What does everyone think?????????
    That my blue Captain and its ability to full restore groupwide power every 3s is now a solid meta healer provided I have a Blue Warden tank.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    That my blue Captain and its ability to full restore groupwide power every 3s is now a solid meta healer provided I have a Blue Warden tank.
    Sounds like another captain balance problem to me.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    96
    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    Here's a really novel idea - one that's never been done on this class before - that might just actually help to fix wardens.

    1. Dramatically increase the base healing of *all* heal gambits, and add the safeguard heal back. Make it so that continually spamming/upkeeping *all the heals* is the equivalent of having a full time healer.

    2. To compensate this overpoweredness, dramatically increase the power cost of all gambit shield heals so that 3-4 rotations of this will completely drain the wardens power.

    3. To stop wardens from doing this infinitely with Dark before the dawn in between the rotation, make it so that dark before the dawn gives a huge burst of power (i.e. 15%) instead of a power over time, BUT make it so that dark before the dawn can only be used when the warden is at 50% morale.

    BONUS

    I think also, that exultation of battle, resolution and the other one from that line should also be substantially buffed to help make wardens more resilient when tanking lots of mobs. Would help if these gambits had added threat bonuses so that defiant challenge was not necessary in order to gain and keep aggro.

    What does everyone think?????????
    What the warden needs:
    1. Convert our self heals to % heals, and never have to worry about scaling it again. 1% for persevere, 1% for safeguard (+1% if done in order), 2% for celebration of skill (+1% if done in order), 5% for restoration.
    That would give us a 11% HoT over when the healing line is done in order. Or about 20k HPS with the ticks every 4 seconds, which is in line with what a cappy can currently do.

    2. Give us an in-combat run speed boost.

    3. Fix "For the Free Peoples" so it is worth using.
    That is all that is required and Wardens will be Viable tanks.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Eadondryt View Post
    What the warden needs:
    1. Convert our self heals to % heals, and never have to worry about scaling it again. 1% for persevere, 1% for safeguard (+1% if done in order), 2% for celebration of skill (+1% if done in order), 5% for restoration.
    That would give us a 11% HoT over when the healing line is done in order. Or about 20k HPS with the ticks every 4 seconds, which is in line with what a cappy can currently do.

    2. Give us an in-combat run speed boost.

    3. Fix "For the Free Peoples" so it is worth using.
    That is all that is required and Wardens will be Viable tanks.
    Pretty much this. I would go adventurous and say fix NS and unbind DC mits from the taunt too. As well as give meaningful legacies and traits, but that's dreaming anyways.

    About For the Free People's it's a capstone, either go the FS help approach and increase everyone mits on everyone by a 10% for a duration or go self sustainability way and give a significant mit increase on warden (something like +25% mits would be decent for a capstone).

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    3,083
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Pretty much this. I would go adventurous and say fix NS and unbind DC mits from the taunt too. As well as give meaningful legacies and traits, but that's dreaming anyways.

    About For the Free People's it's a capstone, either go the FS help approach and increase everyone mits on everyone by a 10% for a duration or go self sustainability way and give a significant mit increase on warden (something like +25% mits would be decent for a capstone).
    I have one more suggestion to this excellent list.

    Shield Mastery should create a protective aura around all friendly players within a small range (say 5-10 meters), where all damage is redirected to the Warden and mitigated by 20%. This would finally give us a way to provide some group utility, and at the very least, this would be in line with the animation.
    Erendil 50 Hunter Rank 7, Mavellen 45 Warden; Officers of Disciples
    Ragaroth Warleader Rank 7, Marhawk Stalker Rank 5; Members of Cuddle Squad
    Other Characters: Arthilius - Captain, Arthilias - Guardian,
    Claireth - Runekeeper, Harbuckle - Burglar, Lothlirien - Hunter

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Strider5548 View Post
    I have one more suggestion to this excellent list.

    Shield Mastery should create a protective aura around all friendly players within a small range (say 5-10 meters), where all damage is redirected to the Warden and mitigated by 20%. This would finally give us a way to provide some group utility, and at the very least, this would be in line with the animation.
    I think this fits perfectly with the class lore but the implementation would maybe be a bit tricky, considering they would need to put a CD to it maybe or a way to deactivate it if needed, in certain situations it's not good to get all fs damage if it's only gonna increase the chances of you dying.

    NS fix again, it will be 100% useless as soon as raid set is gone.

  16. #16
    Very nice ideas .I wish the devs take our class into consideration with these class balances they are doing... Specially the % based heals suggested above

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    2,058
    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    Here's a really novel idea - one that's never been done on this class before - that might just actually help to fix wardens.

    1. Dramatically increase the base healing of *all* heal gambits, and add the safeguard heal back. Make it so that continually spamming/upkeeping *all the heals* is the equivalent of having a full time healer.

    2. To compensate this overpoweredness, dramatically increase the power cost of all gambit shield heals so that 3-4 rotations of this will completely drain the wardens power.

    3. To stop wardens from doing this infinitely with Dark before the dawn in between the rotation, make it so that dark before the dawn gives a huge burst of power (i.e. 15%) instead of a power over time, BUT make it so that dark before the dawn can only be used when the warden is at 50% morale.

    BONUS

    I think also, that exultation of battle, resolution and the other one from that line should also be substantially buffed to help make wardens more resilient when tanking lots of mobs. Would help if these gambits had added threat bonuses so that defiant challenge was not necessary in order to gain and keep aggro.

    What does everyone think?????????

    Like it. And so what if this combination would make the blue captain more viable as a healer? The more viable combos of classes we have to complete instances, the better.

    I would add to the suggestions above, to make sure that Never Surrender still works if your morale goes straight to zero. Currently, it works if your morale drops below 15%, but doesn't activate if you take a hit that removes all your morale at once. This would help wardens to counter some of the unavoidable BPE-bypassing one-shot mechanics that are common in the current endgame.
    Last edited by Erionor; Jun 05 2021 at 05:55 AM.

    I’m an alien, an illegal alien: I’m a Gondorian Captain in Rohan...

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    3,664
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynemna View Post
    Very nice ideas .I wish the devs take our class into consideration with these class balances they are doing... Specially the % based heals suggested above
    % based healing is effectively the worst way to patch the healing gap. People complain that morale stacking is the only valid build these days and basing how much healing you receive on how much morale you have just makes morale stacking even better than it already is.

    Wardens need a source of Tactical Healing Rating to help them catch up to Beorning/Captain in terms of heal potency.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    % based healing is effectively the worst way to patch the healing gap. People complain that morale stacking is the only valid build these days and basing how much healing you receive on how much morale you have just makes morale stacking even better than it already is.

    Wardens need a source of Tactical Healing Rating to help them catch up to Beorning/Captain in terms of heal potency.
    I agree with you, and % heals is just lazy but it's better fix than not doing anything at all and it's pretty easy to implement and test.

    To me the best way would be scaling it with agility or better with weapon damage, it may be tricky to get the right ratings in but since weapons will scale at the same time the healing items of captain/beo, it shouldn't really be hard to keep it scaled by that.

  20. #20
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    Jun 2011
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    3,664
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    I agree with you, and % heals is just lazy but it's better fix than not doing anything at all and it's pretty easy to implement and test.
    No, it's not a better fix, it adds to problems we already have and will just result in a continued arms race as other tanks will start complaining that they don't have % healing of that level and so on and so forth. Bandaid solutions don't cut it, they need to actually fix the scaling.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    No, it's not a better fix, it adds to problems we already have and will just result in a continued arms race as other tanks will start complaining that they don't have % healing of that level and so on and so forth. Bandaid solutions don't cut it, they need to actually fix the scaling.
    Which is what I said in the line after that. It's just I think having a viable band-aid class is better than not being viable at all. Which is why I think they should do a quick fix asap and then just start working on real balance. % heal is a quick fix that takes a moment to do and would make self heals meaninful. Putting again NS cannot be defeated on it is a fix that would take them a moment to put and would fix something broken. Making for the free people's % wise is a fix that takes no time to change and would give a non insulting capstone to warden tank. It's not the class rework that is needed but I want at least a viable tank role (which was btw the main role of the warden until HD and the reason many wardens used to play the class).

  22. #22
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Which is what I said in the line after that. It's just I think having a viable band-aid class is better than not being viable at all. Which is why I think they should do a quick fix asap and then just start working on real balance. % heal is a quick fix that takes a moment to do and would make self heals meaninful.
    No. % heals is a bad fix that just causes additional problems. Again, you're trying to apply a terrible bandaid to something that actually just needs to be done properly. Give Wardens % healing and you're buffing the value of morale and you'll start getting other tanks insisting that they should have % heals too.

    Tanks should not have active percentage healing.
    ~ Take the player, not the class ~

  23. #23
    I really didn't get it what's wrong with% based heals.. other tanks have skills that restores% amount of morale like Catch a breath and worries heart for guardian.. Last stand for Capitan. But, I think captain too needs the same for rallying cry. Since it also does little amounts with the current pole of morale for all classes

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    No. % heals is a bad fix that just causes additional problems. Again, you're trying to apply a terrible bandaid to something that actually just needs to be done properly. Give Wardens % healing and you're buffing the value of morale and you'll start getting other tanks insisting that they should have % heals too.

    Tanks should not have active percentage healing.
    As I said I agree it's a lazy bandaid but the issue is they're not gonna do a comprehensive tanking review and rework of the warden anytime soon (this year at least) so the choice is: ask for a quick fix or bandaid to be able to fill that role even if it's not optimal just to get by, or leave it as it is for a year or longer waiting till they decide to rework it if they ever do it. My choice is I want it to be able to tank, if a bandaid is the only thing they can do, then so be it, it's better than nothing. If you have a different opinion you're free to have it.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    96
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    % based healing is effectively the worst way to patch the healing gap. People complain that morale stacking is the only valid build these days and basing how much healing you receive on how much morale you have just makes morale stacking even better than it already is.

    Wardens need a source of Tactical Healing Rating to help them catch up to Beorning/Captain in terms of heal potency.
    I would agree with you, if there was an alternative tanking method. Unfortunately there is not, boss attacks basically ignore BPE, so the ONLY way to mitigate that damage is by using mitigations and morale. Once you reach cap on mits, morale is the only other option to make yourself tankier.

    So unless they re-work the whole BPE mechanic for the bosses, so they are avoidable, then % based healing is the only way to go, and to future proof the scaling.

 

 
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