We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1

    Classes and their Roles

    When starting a new character the role for each class shows as following:

    Beorning: Damage/Support
    Burglar: Support
    Captain: Support
    Champion: Damage
    Guardian: Defense
    Hunter: Damage
    Lore-master: Support
    Minstrel: Healer
    Rune-keeper: Damage/Healer
    Warden: Defense

    As a new player or even returning player like me i would assume the following:

    DPS:

    1st: Hunter,Champion
    2nd: Beorning,Rune-keeper
    3rd: Burglar,Captain,Lore-master
    4th: Minstrel,Guardian,Warden

    Tank:

    1st: Guardian,Warden
    2nd: Captain,Beorning
    3rd: Champion

    Healer:

    1st: Minstrel
    2nd: Rune-Keeper
    3rd: Beorning

    Support:

    1st: Captain,Burglar,Lore-master
    2nd: Beorning

    However i found out this is not really the case,aparently a warden is among top dps or burglar,so my question is do devs follow/consider these roles when balacing things anymore(if ever)? or any class can tank/dps/heal or support equally no matter the class picked?
    As you can notice is quite confusing and i would say deceiving for example if a player picks warden then finds out is not that good for tanking despite the role on character screen saying "role:defense",personally i think each trait line on any class should be relevant but thats just me.
    I would appreciate some clarification about this to better understand devs vision on this,thanks.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit. View Post
    I would appreciate some clarification about this to better understand devs vision on this,thanks.
    What makes you think they have a vision?

  3. #3
    The roles as stated are correct. This was their intention.

    But then players started complaining. Not enough damage! Not enough healing! I wanna tank too!

    So the devs adjusted the classes based on their complaints. And that's how we ended up in our current state.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    218
    ---Suggested---
    Beorning: Damage/Support
    Burglar: Support
    Captain: Support
    Champion: Damage
    Guardian: Defense
    Hunter: Damage
    Lore-master: Support
    Minstrel: Healer
    Rune-keeper: Damage/Healer
    Warden: Defense

    ---Actual---
    Beorning: Healer
    Burglar: Damage/Support
    Captain: Tank/Damage+Support
    Champion: Damage
    Guardian: Tank (for some content, not really used in T3+ raiding anymore as far as I'm aware)
    Hunter: Damage
    Lore-master: Support
    Minstrel: Healer
    Rune-keeper: Damage (B-tier after nerfs)/Healer
    Warden: Damage/Tank(B tier)

    Maybe people have different opinions. But this is where classes appear to be.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    109
    It is hard to please all parties. So developers are always forced to trade off.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    Original Challenger of the Abyss

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit. View Post
    DPS:

    1st: Hunter,Champion
    2nd: Beorning,Rune-keeper
    3rd: Burglar,Captain,Lore-master
    4th: Minstrel,Guardian,Warden
    Wrong rotation, correct dps is:
    Warden -> Hunter -> Burglar -> Champion -> Rune-keeper -> Beorning and other (not dps classes)
    Best tank is Captain (more survivability), Guardian is bad now, Warden and Beorning good tanks
    Support classes:
    Debuffs - Lore-Master, Burglar, Beorning
    Buffs - Captain, Minstrel
    Healer classes are Minstrel (good heal + buffs (anthems)), Beorning (good heal + debuffs), Rune-keeper (best solo heal)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    2,350
    Quote Originally Posted by SerowLOTRO View Post
    The roles as stated are correct. This was their intention.

    But then players started complaining. Not enough damage! Not enough healing! I wanna tank too!

    So the devs adjusted the classes based on their complaints. And that's how we ended up in our current state.

    They are partly correct. A bit simplified though.
    The table shown on lotro-wiki better shows the intended roles of various classes. (That information is taken from the old User Manual for LOTRO, except for Beorning who are a later addition to the game)

    However, whatever the intentions may be, classes change every now and then as the game gets updated. Sometimes that means that they no longer perform well in a given role, sometimes it means they become very good in a given role. Some of this is intentional, some of it unintentional.

    Wardens, for example, are supposed to be tanks, but right now they appear to be somewhat lackluster in that role.
    Captains used to be fairly mediocre tanks, fourth after Guardians, Warden, and Champions. Now they are considered the best tanks for most boss-fights.

    And so on...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Instand View Post
    Wrong rotation, correct dps is:
    Warden -> Hunter -> Burglar -> Champion -> Rune-keeper -> Beorning and other (not dps classes)
    Best tank is Captain (more survivability), Guardian is bad now, Warden and Beorning good tanks
    Support classes:
    Debuffs - Lore-Master, Burglar, Beorning
    Buffs - Captain, Minstrel
    Healer classes are Minstrel (good heal + buffs (anthems)), Beorning (good heal + debuffs), Rune-keeper (best solo heal)
    I meant based on default roles what would be not what currently is

    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    They are partly correct. A bit simplified though.
    The table shown on lotro-wiki better shows the intended roles of various classes. (That information is taken from the old User Manual for LOTRO, except for Beorning who are a later addition to the game)

    However, whatever the intentions may be, classes change every now and then as the game gets updated. Sometimes that means that they no longer perform well in a given role, sometimes it means they become very good in a given role. Some of this is intentional, some of it unintentional.

    Wardens, for example, are supposed to be tanks, but right now they appear to be somewhat lackluster in that role.
    Captains used to be fairly mediocre tanks, fourth after Guardians, Warden, and Champions. Now they are considered the best tanks for most boss-fights.

    And so on...
    Ye i guess,but all seems randomly buffed and nerfed,found out red mini got nerfed,but then warden at the top of dpsers, would be sad to pick warden for dps then they do a "reverse uno" and go "sorry you can't dps anymore", i'm all for all classes doing well on each trait line though. But anyway, thanks all for the answers.
    Last edited by Hobbit.; Jun 30 2020 at 06:25 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,731
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit. View Post
    Ye i guess,but all seems randomly buffed and nerfed,found out red mini got nerfed,but then warden at the top of dpsers, would be sad to pick warden for dps then they do a "reverse uno" and go "sorry you can't dps anymore", i'm all for all classes doing well on each trait line though. But anyway, thanks all for the answers.
    IMHO red mini can deal a lot of damage, you just need put more attention to your gear. Years ago even naked mini can deal a lot of damage, people use it to farm LP in starting areas. Now tactical classes more gear depended, LM and Mini starting shine only if they good gear on level. It's sad if people don't like warden as best DPS class in game and want somehow turn him into wannabe tank on 5th position.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit. View Post
    I meant based on default roles what would be not what currently is



    Ye i guess,but all seems randomly buffed and nerfed,found out red mini got nerfed,but then warden at the top of dpsers, would be sad to pick warden for dps then they do a "reverse uno" and go "sorry you can't dps anymore", i'm all for all classes doing well on each trait line though. But anyway, thanks all for the answers.

    Your concern is legitimate. If you roll a character with a purpose and intent for what presently is, you will get used to the satisfaction of fulfilling that purpose for a time, but the Developers will sense your purpose and actively seek out to strip you of that enjoyment at some point. In my experience, that is a surety. What they say and consideration of original intent is farcical. They steer classes in certain directions, and once the player-base concedes and even buys-in, they change things up. No one is a greater enemy to this game than the developer team. The whiplash of compulsory bait-and-switch is abusive, and I'm weary of it. They are adversarial and deaf toward the player-base.
    "His house was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking, best, or a pleasant mixture of them all."
    J. R. R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    They are partly correct. A bit simplified though.
    The table shown on lotro-wiki better shows the intended roles of various classes. (That information is taken from the old User Manual for LOTRO, except for Beorning who are a later addition to the game)

    However, whatever the intentions may be, classes change every now and then as the game gets updated. Sometimes that means that they no longer perform well in a given role, sometimes it means they become very good in a given role. Some of this is intentional, some of it unintentional.

    Wardens, for example, are supposed to be tanks, but right now they appear to be somewhat lackluster in that role.
    Captains used to be fairly mediocre tanks, fourth after Guardians, Warden, and Champions. Now they are considered the best tanks for most boss-fights.

    And so on...
    Today someone changed table with class roles on Lotrowiki

    This was original table:


    This is new one:


    And this is mentioned change in lotrowiki history:


    I must admit that new table is more accurate for current class state in lotro, but I don't like change on Warden, from primary tank to secondary tank, it is like slap to the face for all wardens, who still didn't resign to tanking.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master, Gislin - Burglar

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    I must admit that new table is more accurate for current class state in lotro, but I don't like change on Warden, from primary tank to secondary tank, it is like slap to the face for all wardens, who still didn't resign to tanking.
    From T2c ToO tanks to T1 Remm tanks, I feel you. On the other hand, cappy dps support and tanking (as opposed to HoH as the default) and warden dps were my favorite side projects back then. But I think it's mostly about raid design than class design at this point, for warden tanks. When they make it less about 1-shots and more about net tps vs hps (by using adds that cant just be nuked w/o tanking (Thoss) or put into distinct stages (Rukhor + Shelob)), that'll help. Also make more than boss autoattacks be BPEable.
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Ulxart, Loremaster

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    148
    I strongly disagree with the concept of "primary" and "secondary" roles.

    If a classes trait tree is designed for a role, that class should be able to accomplish that role to the same degree as any other class.

    Red Guardians & Red Bears should be doing comparable dps to Red Hunters & Red RKs.
    Blue Wardens and Blue Champions should be as effective as tanks as Yellow Cappies & Blue Guards.
    Yellow Minis should be as effective at supporting as Yellow Burgs & Yellow LMs.

    etc.

    There is more than enough room for differentiation in the manner in which they accomplish the roles. There should *NOT* be an artificial cap on class potential simply because some other class can also fulfill that role.
    Its time to get rid of ILIs & weapon swapping and actually balance the classes. Its been a travesty of class imbalance for years. We also need to get rid of the trait trees and replace them with something which is not so open to rank abuse by excessive level growth.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Krindel View Post
    Today someone changed table with class roles on Lotrowiki

    This is new one:
    Guardian primary tank lul

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    I strongly disagree with the concept of "primary" and "secondary" roles.

    If a classes trait tree is designed for a role, that class should be able to accomplish that role to the same degree as any other class.

    Red Guardians & Red Bears should be doing comparable dps to Red Hunters & Red RKs.
    Blue Wardens and Blue Champions should be as effective as tanks as Yellow Cappies & Blue Guards.
    Yellow Minis should be as effective at supporting as Yellow Burgs & Yellow LMs.
    No. You're wrong. In lotro every class has a specific role (at least it should be): Guardian is a tank, Minstrel is a heal, hunter is a damage. In the past it was. Each raid setup had 100% primary tank (guardian), heal (minstrel), buffer (captain) and dps. Now SSG is trying to please everyone, this is the community's fault too. Now we have 300 tank (Captain, Guardian, Warden, Champion, Beorning) - and as a result of this primary tank in past Guardian became useless. You're like it? May be you would like to repeat it? I'm not.
    Stop it please. Stop breaking the balance! Each class must have a specific role: guard - main tank (captain, beorn, champion, warden - off tank), mini - main heal and etc. And besides the main roles, each class may have a secondary role for solo and other gameplay.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by Instand View Post
    No. You're wrong. In lotro every class has a specific role (at least it should be): Guardian is a tank, Minstrel is a heal, hunter is a damage. In the past it was. Each raid setup had 100% primary tank (guardian), heal (minstrel), buffer (captain) and dps. Now SSG is trying to please everyone, this is the community's fault too. Now we have 300 tank (Captain, Guardian, Warden, Champion, Beorning) - and as a result of this primary tank in past Guardian became useless. You're like it? May be you would like to repeat it? I'm not.
    Stop it please. Stop breaking the balance! Each class must have a specific role: guard - main tank (captain, beorn, champion, warden - off tank), mini - main heal and etc. And besides the main roles, each class may have a secondary role for solo and other gameplay.

    And I find you to be wrong.
    Guardian has 3 trait lines. Blue (tank) Red (dps) and Yellow (Tank).
    All exist.
    All should be viable.

    Guardian is useless, not because there are a bunch of other tanks, but because captain is overtuned. Instances have also become unbalanced because SSG has indulged in constant stat growth to drive people into gear farms and the lotro store (subscriptions/solvents).

    Irrespective of the poor balancing which SSG has done, all classes deserve to be viable in any of their given roles.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,731
    Quote Originally Posted by Instand View Post
    No. You're wrong. In lotro every class has a specific role (at least it should be): Guardian is a tank, Minstrel is a heal, hunter is a damage. In the past it was. Each raid setup had 100% primary tank (guardian), heal (minstrel), buffer (captain) and dps. Now SSG is trying to please everyone, this is the community's fault too. Now we have 300 tank (Captain, Guardian, Warden, Champion, Beorning) - and as a result of this primary tank in past Guardian became useless. You're like it? May be you would like to repeat it? I'm not.
    Stop it please. Stop breaking the balance! Each class must have a specific role: guard - main tank (captain, beorn, champion, warden - off tank), mini - main heal and etc. And besides the main roles, each class may have a secondary role for solo and other gameplay.
    Guardian became useless not because they change any roles. Main problem what other classes have skills updated for a while, when Guardian skills wasn't updated and they wasn't such effective in some instances. Nothing wrong with Warden turns from off tank to damage dealer, because he still can be effective in PvE. To make Guardian effective, they need change Block/Parry/Evade system too.
    Last edited by Elmagor; Jul 02 2020 at 12:42 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    Guardian became useless not because they change any roles. Main problem what other classes have skills updated for a while, when Guardian skills wasn't updated and they wasn't such effective in some instances. Nothing wrong with Warden turns from off tank to damage dealer, because he still can be effective in PvE. To make Guardian effective, they need change Block/Parry/Evade system too.
    No. Guardian useless cuz captain is better tank. In past Captain was buffer and off tank, but now he's the main tank. It's SSG's fault. All because the community started asking for balance for secondary role their classes. If BPE systems will change - captains will be give boost too.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,731
    Quote Originally Posted by Instand View Post
    No. Guardian useless cuz captain is better tank. In past Captain was buffer and off tank, but now he's the main tank. It's SSG's fault. All because the community started asking for balance for secondary role their classes. If BPE systems will change - captains will be give boost too.
    Captain never tanking before? Guardian current state result multiple amount of problems and mistakes. Mediocre player can tank with Captain, while only very exp players still can tank with Guardian. Of course everyone get boost, or at least everyone have CHANGES. While people talking only about changes for Guardian. It's not like situation with hunter, where you can add 15-20% dps and they fine with that. Even if they buff Guardian skills Guardian still can't be so-called main tank (and don't forget about Captain), because they need dig deeper and change whole his mechanic. "primary", "secondary", "main-tank" - it's just words, you can call warden primary tank, but that can't help him tanking better.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    385
    Quote Originally Posted by Instand View Post
    No. Guardian useless cuz captain is better tank. In past Captain was buffer and off tank, but now he's the main tank. It's SSG's fault. All because the community started asking for balance for secondary role their classes. If BPE systems will change - captains will be give boost too.
    If Captains get the nerfs they need, including to their "free" BPE, then they will take more damage than BPE classes and that could help the balance. They also need a significant nerf to the OP cooldown skills, as they make it impossible to design boss fights that are fair to all the Tanks.
    Zohal
    85 Warden - Leader of The Last Alliance - Anor
    Challenger of the Rift - Challenger of Helegrod

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload