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  1. #1

    Why have people forgotten how to do Pela BB all of a sudden?

    Lately I've been trying to join any Pelargir BB that presents itself, with any alt that hasn't done it that day. In the last 6 or 7 runs, I've had one group that got a plat run.

    There are numerous ways to mess that up, but it's not hard to do well. Still here are the things I see:

    1. People ignore that it's a BB, so if you're using 65 gear on a level 106, your DPS is negligible so don't join. Your gear should be very close in level to your actual level. And if you're over 100, please have your weapon not only imbued but at least your legacies at 40+. I've seen people with legacies at 8, or not imbued, no relics, no spent points. Not just once, in one run, it was 3 people out of 6 with severely neglected LI's. Am I the only one who thinks it's rude to join if my character is in such a bad state?

    2. People not using bear traps at all. I don't know if they're just bored or what, but the winch took damage in two of the runs. The back door also hasn't been getting traps, to the point where in one run, someone finally spoke up about it. Then in that same run, people put lots of traps around the catapaults, so obviously they had them. It wasn't a "no traps skill" thing. No traps at side quests, people chasing mobs to the villagers in Backs against the Wall.

    3. Again in two runs, nobody built the ballista, meaning, I always check to see someone is doing that, but I don't try to beat them to it. I had to do it.

    4. Nobody healing supplies, nobody calling it out if supplies are damaged, mobs standing at supplies are not targeted.

    5. Soldiers are not healed, not buffed, not switched to 2-handed or sword and shield at all. Ignored totally.

    6. Barricades allowed to burn. People run right past.

    7. One time, the catas weren't improved at all. Another time, they were in constant use, even though we had a low DPS group.

    Have people forgotten how to do Pel? Or is this some new tactic of doing it faster at the expense of the 50-stars bonus boxes?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shirewhistle View Post
    Lately I've been trying to join any Pelargir BB that presents itself, with any alt that hasn't done it that day. In the last 6 or 7 runs, I've had one group that got a plat run.

    There are numerous ways to mess that up, but it's not hard to do well. Still here are the things I see:

    1. People ignore that it's a BB, so if you're using 65 gear on a level 106, your DPS is negligible so don't join. Your gear should be very close in level to your actual level. And if you're over 100, please have your weapon not only imbued but at least your legacies at 40+. I've seen people with legacies at 8, or not imbued, no relics, no spent points. Not just once, in one run, it was 3 people out of 6 with severely neglected LI's. Am I the only one who thinks it's rude to join if my character is in such a bad state?

    2. People not using bear traps at all. I don't know if they're just bored or what, but the winch took damage in two of the runs. The back door also hasn't been getting traps, to the point where in one run, someone finally spoke up about it. Then in that same run, people put lots of traps around the catapaults, so obviously they had them. It wasn't a "no traps skill" thing. No traps at side quests, people chasing mobs to the villagers in Backs against the Wall.

    3. Again in two runs, nobody built the ballista, meaning, I always check to see someone is doing that, but I don't try to beat them to it. I had to do it.

    4. Nobody healing supplies, nobody calling it out if supplies are damaged, mobs standing at supplies are not targeted.

    5. Soldiers are not healed, not buffed, not switched to 2-handed or sword and shield at all. Ignored totally.

    6. Barricades allowed to burn. People run right past.

    7. One time, the catas weren't improved at all. Another time, they were in constant use, even though we had a low DPS group.

    Have people forgotten how to do Pel? Or is this some new tactic of doing it faster at the expense of the 50-stars bonus boxes?
    - I don't think an imbued LI with decent legacy levels is that important, as the only real damage check is on bosses
    - You make the common mistake of thinking others have a shred of integrity left to fill their spot in the group to their best of their ability
    - If they're not using Bear Traps they're either 1. lazy 2. first BB or 3. barely have any trait points
    - The paying attention + healing part is pure RNG: you can have a party where no one talks at all and everyone knows what to do, but then on the other end of the spectrum you have people who just afk, are getting lost, don't know the quests, don't decon/build barricades, keep firing catapults when the first quest is up etc.
    - Personally I only do Pela on yellow Beorning or yellow RK, as I can do almost everything on my own except Bear Traps, catapults and boss
    - You need a lot of trait points to either improve catapults or barricades, and even my main doesn't have the points for that, as I just can't be bothered to farm pointless traits
    - Depends on your scope: if you're just there for marks/meds you just need to finish the quests, as the rating itself doesn't matter. If you're there for SoM that's a different matter

  3. #3
    So how does someone with such a badly neglected character even play the game? Do they just craft? My mind boggles.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiyafar View Post
    - I don't think an imbued LI with decent legacy levels is that important, as the only real damage check is on bosses
    - You make the common mistake of thinking others have a shred of integrity left to fill their spot in the group to their best of their ability
    - If they're not using Bear Traps they're either 1. lazy 2. first BB or 3. barely have any trait points
    - The paying attention + healing part is pure RNG: you can have a party where no one talks at all and everyone knows what to do, but then on the other end of the spectrum you have people who just afk, are getting lost, don't know the quests, don't decon/build barricades, keep firing catapults when the first quest is up etc.
    - Personally I only do Pela on yellow Beorning or yellow RK, as I can do almost everything on my own except Bear Traps, catapults and boss
    - You need a lot of trait points to either improve catapults or barricades, and even my main doesn't have the points for that, as I just can't be bothered to farm pointless traits
    - Depends on your scope: if you're just there for marks/meds you just need to finish the quests, as the rating itself doesn't matter. If you're there for SoM that's a different matter
    IMHO SSG made critical mistake when they allow all players from level 20 join BB. They don't know their skills, they don't read what they need to do in quests (or don't care), they don't know how work in team. And from lore view, you can't just jump from The Shire on level 20 to Pelargir in Gondor on level 95. And most important, they allow people without ranks and without knowing how play in BB gets dragged to the win with 6 rank players. They just think what BB is easy and you can stand AFK when others do your job and get reward. You just encounter players who have 1-2 rank or even zero.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    IMHO SSG made critical mistake when they allow all players from level 20 join BB. They don't know their skills, they don't read what they need to do in quests (or don't care), they don't know how work in team. And from lore view, you can't just jump from The Shire on level 20 to Pelargir in Gondor on level 95. And most important, they allow people without ranks and without knowing how play in BB gets dragged to the win with 6 rank players. They just think what BB is easy and you can stand AFK when others do your job and get reward. You just encounter players who have 1-2 rank or even zero.
    You can join BBs after L10. Sounds like an even bigger mistake?
    “ädvëntürës ärë nöt äll pönÿ-rïdës ïn mäÿ-sünshïnë.”

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeebPlayer View Post
    You can join BBs after L10. Sounds like an even bigger mistake?
    Doesn't matter, I don't see much difference between 10 and 20 level for most of casual players. BB just hit or miss, you don't know if all other players from your team ready for BB or not. If they don't ready and don't care, you can't solo win it with platinum. Sometimes even 10 level player can have 6 rank and know what to do, and sometimes even 130 level can fail in BB everywhere

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    IMHO SSG made critical mistake when they allow all players from level 20 join BB. They don't know their skills, they don't read what they need to do in quests (or don't care), they don't know how work in team. And from lore view, you can't just jump from The Shire on level 20 to Pelargir in Gondor on level 95. And most important, they allow people without ranks and without knowing how play in BB gets dragged to the win with 6 rank players. They just think what BB is easy and you can stand AFK when others do your job and get reward. You just encounter players who have 1-2 rank or even zero.
    You have to start without ranks and basically build up a new character just for doing BBs. And of cause they don't know how to play BBs because these are different from other group content. I have a hard time doing them successfully for the epic myself, that's the only reason I step in there. So of cause I need players who know how to do them and hopefully can carry me. And since I skip them now on new characters I miss a big chunk of the epic story. Maybe don't require them for the epic and you already have a lot of uninterested, non rank players stay out.

    Btw, when they were introduced nobody had ranks. How were they ever successfully finished?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    You have to start without ranks and basically build up a new character just for doing BBs. And of cause they don't know how to play BBs because these are different from other group content. I have a hard time doing them successfully for the epic myself, that's the only reason I step in there. So of cause I need players who know how to do them and hopefully can carry me. And since I skip them now on new characters I miss a big chunk of the epic story. Maybe don't require them for the epic and you already have a lot of uninterested, non rank players stay out.
    I know it, I have 300+ PP on many characters. If you don't know what to do, you must listen to other players and they must carry you before you enter 6-man BB. Or at least 2-man Pelargir. Main problem what newbies just don't listen. You suppose to carry them, not lecture them.

  9. #9
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    I suspect that during Pela's heyday, most players were carried through by more experienced ones, so they never got involved beyond standing around. They didn't touch barricades or supplies or know the tactic. To be fair, I have found myself in this position - an experienced player, but because it was always assumed everyone knew the tactics, they were never explained and if I asked, I was usually ignored. Two people would rush and build or improve things in seconds and lay enough traps to wipe out the wave. It became very easy to be carried by a Pela even if you didn't know the drill.

    Gradually those players will no longer do Pela (I don't. I don't spend marks on anything.) All you're left with are the ones who were carried and think Pela is just an automatic win if you hit the enemies. All the other stuff, other people did.

    Having 20s in BBs makes no sense anymore - it never did, frankly - and it's time to reconsider it. I have a new character and wanted to attempt some BBs for marks/Merits, but a 20, even a 36, can't make any impact on Helms Dike alone, solo, so you can't unlock them and earn any points. You could do them in a group but why would you? Utter waste of time now having this feature.
    'A cage,' she said. 'To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.'

    [evernight] lilka : warden | gwenaëlle : champion | elorie : minstrel | cedar : hunter


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    I know it, I have 300+ PP on many characters. If you don't know what to do, you must listen to other players and they must carry you before you enter 6-man BB. Or at least 2-man Pelargir. Main problem what newbies just don't listen. You suppose to carry them, not lecture them.
    I want to do them each once on each character for the EPIC. I wont do them more then that. Sorry, I really am not interested in learning these mechanics and building up this part of my character. Most of them are just a pain to be soloed and a fail after 20-30 min is very discouraging. And if I can't find anybody who is willing to carry me knowing what they are doing I miss a big chunk of the EPIC story. My hope is that eventually something is done so players like me can just faceroll them. They changed Vol 1 and 2 to be soloable and despite what they say, these BBs are not.

  11. #11
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    I think pel is one of 2 things I ever see a call for anymore. It's made me curious - what do you get from running it that people still want? Is it for the stars to barter for scrolls? That seems kind of slow.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElanorFb View Post
    I think pel is one of 2 things I ever see a call for anymore. It's made me curious - what do you get from running it that people still want? Is it for the stars to barter for scrolls? That seems kind of slow.
    I seen Helm's Dike many times, Helm's Wall few times per week, even MT/Hammer once per week. Yep. Stars & 2 trait points from 200 PP

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElanorFb View Post
    I think pel is one of 2 things I ever see a call for anymore. It's made me curious - what do you get from running it that people still want? Is it for the stars to barter for scrolls? That seems kind of slow.
    It is, if it’s your only source of scrolls. If it’s another thing on top of everything else you’re running, a bit better. It’s more useful for star-lit crystals, as there are far less places to go where you can guarantee being able to buy crystals. In fact, outside of festivals, and if you’re not high enough to farm motes/embers, I think the only other source for crystals is from level 105 instance and raid barterers at MT.

    I’m an alien, an illegal alien: I’m a Gondorian Captain in Rohan...

  14. #14
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    That was the beauty of Radiance. It set a mark for players to meet a basic standard for the content. If you couldn't meet that standard you hadn't proved worthy. If you couldn't do Dark-delvings for the last piece of gear could you say you had earned your place in the raid?

    Then the "entitled" get heard and stumbling across an instance is your ticket to the party.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilka View Post
    I suspect that during Pela's heyday, most players were carried through by more experienced ones, so they never got involved beyond standing around. They didn't touch barricades or supplies or know the tactic. To be fair, I have found myself in this position - an experienced player, but because it was always assumed everyone knew the tactics, they were never explained and if I asked, I was usually ignored. Two people would rush and build or improve things in seconds and lay enough traps to wipe out the wave. It became very easy to be carried by a Pela even if you didn't know the drill.

    Gradually those players will no longer do Pela (I don't. I don't spend marks on anything.) All you're left with are the ones who were carried and think Pela is just an automatic win if you hit the enemies. All the other stuff, other people did.

    Having 20s in BBs makes no sense anymore - it never did, frankly - and it's time to reconsider it. I have a new character and wanted to attempt some BBs for marks/Merits, but a 20, even a 36, can't make any impact on Helms Dike alone, solo, so you can't unlock them and earn any points. You could do them in a group but why would you? Utter waste of time now having this feature.
    My thoughts exactly.

    Whenever there's a call for Pela, "everyone's welcome" is added on my server. Those invites usually come from the same group of players and fill up quickly - I assume some sort of direction is offered or part of the group is carried.

    Even in old kin runs, there was no explanation, no planning - you either knew what to do or was sometimes asked to do one thing. Haven't run those in years and if you put my lvl 130 main with decent gear, maxed out LI and general understanding of the class I play, she would have little idea what to do. Cause I don't like BBs and never learned how to run them.
    Roaming Gladden since 2013

  16. #16
    "all of a sudden"? Back when we used to have to run them, and did it regularly, people remembered. Since then, just like skraids, people have moved on. Skraids are still normal (and I miss them), they don't change play style much (especially since people are scared of tank soldiers, not knowing how to use them). BB's on the other hand, are annoying, badly thought out, and require unique play styles not really used elsewhere. It's understanding that people rarely doing them might goof up.

    Heck, I'm about to bring a couple of toons through Helm's Deep. It'll be the first time in BB's in years, and it will be interesting to see what I remember...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmagor View Post
    IMHO SSG made critical mistake when they allow all players from level 20 join BB. They don't know their skills, they don't read what they need to do in quests (or don't care), they don't know how work in team. And from lore view, you can't just jump from The Shire on level 20 to Pelargir in Gondor on level 95. And most important, they allow people without ranks and without knowing how play in BB gets dragged to the win with 6 rank players. They just think what BB is easy and you can stand AFK when others do your job and get reward. You just encounter players who have 1-2 rank or even zero.
    Yeah this. I don't mind bringing along one person who has no ranks. It would be better to have the lower limit be 65+ for the BB's. It's possible to start accumulating ranks after Moria and you won't be one shot by any mob or arrows.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    You have to start without ranks and basically build up a new character just for doing BBs. And of cause they don't know how to play BBs because these are different from other group content. I have a hard time doing them successfully for the epic myself, that's the only reason I step in there. So of cause I need players who know how to do them and hopefully can carry me. And since I skip them now on new characters I miss a big chunk of the epic story. Maybe don't require them for the epic and you already have a lot of uninterested, non rank players stay out.

    Btw, when they were introduced nobody had ranks. How were they ever successfully finished?
    I did them from the start. I did a lot of complaining as did everyone else. But the way to gain ranks is the same now as it was then. Be at least post-Moria or you're just too squishy. If you're under level, don't attack anything. Your DPS is nil. Go engineer, focus on healing if you can, and heal supplies/banners. Read the wiki for what you need to do. Pelargir is very engineer heavy.

    Find a friend with ranks and ask them to carry you duo through the basic Helm's Deep and MT BB's. That will get you some ranks. If they're really good, and you've got some ranks, you can also do 3-man Glittering Caves as a duo. This will takes several days, so based on their schedule it will take a couple of weeks, be patient. Join a kin and ask about the schedule for BB training runs.

    To get 2 of your Class Trait Points you need to get at least 200 Promotion Points anyway, so this will take a while. I usually don't get both CTPs until around level 100 on an alt even though I start on an alt around level 60ish. However, it's a big help to a person to just be in there with them and go from supply to supply, from banner to banner and heal/repair it. Even just that is a big help.

    The biggest benefit of it I think is that I have to buy fewer ranks on my imbued LI for the main stat (the DPS stat / the Star-Lit Crystals) because I can buy more of them from the vendor. Or I can buy a few more SoE's if that's what I need. I am working on my fifth alt with an imbued LI.

    Edit:
    So this is not that bad of a description... please update if it needs it: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Epi...8Six_Person.29
    Last edited by Shirewhistle; Jun 06 2020 at 05:45 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirewhistle View Post
    I did them from the start. I did a lot of complaining as did everyone else. But the way to gain ranks is the same now as it was then. Be at least post-Moria or you're just too squishy. If you're under level, don't attack anything. Your DPS is nil. Go engineer, focus on healing if you can, and heal supplies/banners. Read the wiki for what you need to do. Pelargir is very engineer heavy.

    Find a friend with ranks and ask them to carry you duo through the basic Helm's Deep and MT BB's. That will get you some ranks. If they're really good, and you've got some ranks, you can also do 3-man Glittering Caves as a duo. This will takes several days, so based on their schedule it will take a couple of weeks, be patient. Join a kin and ask about the schedule for BB training runs.

    To get 2 of your Class Trait Points you need to get at least 200 Promotion Points anyway, so this will take a while. I usually don't get both CTPs until around level 100 on an alt even though I start on an alt around level 60ish. However, it's a big help to a person to just be in there with them and go from supply to supply, from banner to banner and heal/repair it. Even just that is a big help.

    The biggest benefit of it I think is that I have to buy fewer ranks on my imbued LI for the main stat (the DPS stat / the Star-Lit Crystals) because I can buy more of them from the vendor. Or I can buy a few more SoE's if that's what I need. I am working on my fifth alt with an imbued LI.
    Not interested in the trait points or gaining ranks. All I want is to be able to do the epic and it has become harder to solo them. It is sad that we can't even finish a good story because of these badly tuned battles. Thankfully while they were still current I got 2 characters through them and could experience the end of vol 3. The start of vol 4 doesn't make much sense without that ending.

    My kin disbanded and even if I find a new one, I need to be carried through these battles on every alt character I bring up there once. They are a side game in Lotro and I have come to hate them.

  20. #20
    Someone has to lead, you can in common advance at your pace.
    What you expect from new guys, that we get? We should invite them and explain what is to do. We have some new players beside us.
    Even low level Chars can given some role.

    Pets of LM are scaled well and could in former times kill the guys at the backdoor. For the boss, you like to have buffs and debuffs. eg.

    Only one thing is important: have potions @100 with you, else you cant cure the poison.

    I have Points in my List:
    380 on my Main Captain
    301 on 2nd Captain, the Warrior with Turtlestone @75
    275 on Hunter @60 (now)
    251 on Warden Turtelstone @60

    Have in Mind, that Playing the Warden was the Most annoying, as you get very often outfight. Have something written in Bio: Like best box Carrier (12 Wall) - That was my Job and Turning Catapults and reloader.

    For LM and Captains it is nice, as your buffs get scaled as in the moors. Everything well.
    Hunter was a bit annoying, as the damage was not as good, as you think, when you do not have LI. But you can try to use Traps and something like that. The Movement Buff brings you to places and the Engineer does not care what level you are.

    I am not a big fan of the epic battles, but a fan of group play.

    You have jobs to do and you have mates with you. When do you chose who does side quests?
    Some communication helps.
    If you guys the first time with you, then give them jobs they can do repairing with heals or hammer, or order the soldiers or doing something usefull.
    The Best Memory i have in mind of the Epic Battles was, that people starting to lead them, that were in Raids in Common more passive and that everybody could play them together regardless of level - Goal is not platin, goal is to have some fun together.
    The Worst Memory i still have, that after 2 Expansion of Epic Battles, the most players could not play their Classes anymore.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    Not interested in the trait points or gaining ranks. All I want is to be able to do the epic and it has become harder to solo them. It is sad that we can't even finish a good story because of these badly tuned battles. Thankfully while they were still current I got 2 characters through them and could experience the end of vol 3. The start of vol 4 doesn't make much sense without that ending.

    My kin disbanded and even if I find a new one, I need to be carried through these battles on every alt character I bring up there once. They are a side game in Lotro and I have come to hate them.
    Hmm, Idk if it's a "side game" if it gives you character building points aka trait points. Also they are part of the central story, as you said yourself. No side game about it.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirewhistle View Post
    Hmm, Idk if it's a "side game" if it gives you character building points aka trait points. Also they are part of the central story, as you said yourself. No side game about it.
    With side game I mean that they require a different skill set from normal play. It seems like a different game within this game. Fun for some, I'm sure. I would rather not be forced through the story to do them. Now I will miss chunks of that due to them on alts. My choice … but they are way to long, fail to easy, are boring and just no fun at all. My opinion of cause.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    With side game I mean that they require a different skill set from normal play. It seems like a different game within this game. Fun for some, I'm sure. I would rather not be forced through the story to do them. Now I will miss chunks of that due to them on alts. My choice … but they are way to long, fail to easy, are boring and just no fun at all. My opinion of cause.
    I hear ya. I did it on one character years ago, and since then I just skip the epic quest because it's such a pain. It's a crying shame because I play for the storyline.
    "Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your children when you wanted to."

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by wispsong View Post
    With side game I mean that they require a different skill set from normal play. It seems like a different game within this game. Fun for some, I'm sure. I would rather not be forced through the story to do them. Now I will miss chunks of that due to them on alts. My choice … but they are way to long, fail to easy, are boring and just no fun at all. My opinion of cause.
    - Hardly a different game: you have adds and you have to pay attention to a few quest objectives and bosses, which is almost like any other instance you're doing. The only new thing are usable structures like barricades and catapults and BB trait trees.
    - You have to do specific BBs just once during book quests
    - A half-decent group can do Pela in ~22min or so
    - As for "failing easy" : you have 2 damage checks on 2 bosses, after that it's "Kill thieves/scouts" or "Kill everything in your way and protect NPCs/talk to NPCs"
    - The "no fun" part might stem from playing Pela in bad groups: in half-decent groups the BB plays itself, as you only have to be active during specific key moments
    Last edited by Tiyafar; Jun 07 2020 at 03:46 AM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirewhistle View Post
    1. People ignore that it's a BB, so if you're using 65 gear on a level 106, your DPS is negligible so don't join. Your gear should be very close in level to your actual level. And if you're over 100, please have your weapon not only imbued but at least your legacies at 40+. I've seen people with legacies at 8, or not imbued, no relics, no spent points. Not just once, in one run, it was 3 people out of 6 with severely neglected LI's. Am I the only one who thinks it's rude to join if my character is in such a bad state?
    Golly! I HATE it when people have fun the wrong way!
    His sword was long, his lance was keen, his shining helm afar was seen.

 

 
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