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Thread: More dps

  1. #1

    More dps

    In order to improve our dps, what buffs can we expect/reclaim from other players?

    Hunter:
    Penetrating Shot: -4% Physical Mitigation, +10% Incoming Ranged Critical Chance (Duration 10s, CD: 3s)
    Triple trap: +15% incoming damage (10s) (Master Trapper - yellow line) (pre-combat)
    Item: Bow Chant: Minas Ithil Breach-finder, -2600 Ranged Skill Damage Mitigation Modifier (Duration 35m, CD 1min)
    Item: Potion of Focus, +40% Devastate Magnitude (Duration 30s, CD: 3min)
    Item: Scroll of Minas Ithil Battle Lore: +18371 Physical Mastery Rating
    Item: Scroll of the Minas Ithil Guard: +2.5% damage (Duration: 40m)


    Loremaster:
    Raven, Benediction of the raven: -10% Fire Mitigation
    Raven, Catmint -20% fire mits
    Ancient Craft: Debuffs enemies' armour
    Sticky Tar: -10% Fire Mitigation (Duration 1m, CD: 1m 30s)
    Bear, Shatter Arms: +10% Incoming Ranged Damage (30s Duration)
    Bog-Lurker, Root Strike: +5% Incoming Ranged Critical Chance (30s Duration)

    Captain
    Telling Mark: +10% Incoming Damage (with Advantageous Attack)
    Standard of War: +20% Melee, ranged and tactical Damage (Duration: 30s, CD: 1min) + stacking critical chance % buff up to +5%
    Oathbreaker's Shame: +35% Incoming Damage (Duration: 20s, CD: 3min)
    To Arms: Between +15% and +25% Damage (25s duration / 1m Cooldown)
    Penetrating Cry: -15% Attack Duration (1m duration)
    Rousing Cry: +5% Ranged Damage (1m duration) (blue line)

    Burglar
    Trick: Enrage +5% Incoming Damage (Duration: 15s / CD: 5s) (can double enrage: 30s duration)
    Reveal Weakness: +13.6% incoming damage Yellow
    Quite A Snag is +3% incoming damage (15s Duration / 5s Cooldown).
    Vital Points + Burglar Class Essence reduce the targets Critical Defence by -15%. (red line)

    Runekeeper:
    Flurry of Words: +3% Incoming Ranged Critical Chance (Duration 15s / CD: 25s)
    Mystifying Flames: -15% Fire Mitigation (red line / using fire skills)
    Molten Flame -15% Armour (red line / using fire skills)

    Minstrel:
    Anthem of War: +15% Melee and Ranged Damage (The Minstrel Songbook major legacy Anthem of War Damage (Physical) will increase the buff to physical damage by 2% to 10%.)
    Anthem of Third Age - Melody: +10% Damage (Yellow-Line) Duration: 1m
    Anthem of Prowess: -5% Attack duration
    Call to Greatness: +10% Ranged Damage, +3 Focus and +2 Focus every 5 seconds (CD: 1m 30s) (Yellow-Line)


    Beorning:
    Bee Swarm: -15% Physical mitigation (15s duration / 15s cooldown) (Debilitating Bees, Yellow Trait)
    Armour Crush: +15% Incoming damage (10s duration / 16s cooldown) (Blue Trait)

    Champion:
    Rend. Armour reduction. (Increases the Armour reduction with Rend Armour Reduction Imbued Legacy)

    Warden:
    Lasting Mark: Between -5% and -12.5% Physical Mitigation (yellow)
    Diminshed Target: Between -5% and -7.5% Tactical Mitigation

    Guardian:
    #BoxingBag
    Last edited by MaxHunter; Jun 02 2020 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    From champions definitely Rend armor reduction and from Beornings bees.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
    Kinship PRIME-Evernight Since May 2007
    Borzol R12-Mauhnakh R9-Varcolac R9-Sumnor R8-Orcapo R8 (Creep status retired)
    Discord: Arandour #1742

  3. #3
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    LM - raven with Catmint is 20% fire mits
    - bear Shatter Arms - 10% inc ranged damage
    - bog lurker Root Strike - 5% inc ranged crit chance

    Cappy - Standard of War is 20% damage not 30%
    - Oathies is 20 sec duration not 10
    - To Arms 25% damage if the hunter is blade brother (60% of that if not)
    - Brother's Call stacking damage
    - Master of War guaranteed crit hit on next skill (proc from crits on Inspire and Shadow's Lament)
    - Pet armour debuff - Elite Companions

    Burg - Reveal Weakness inc damage
    - A Small Snag inc damage

    RK - Molten Flame 15% armour debuff

    Minstrel - Anthem of War doesn't stack anymore, instead you get 4 different anthems up for 3m 10s iirc

    Beorning - has a few skill to increase your damage and some armour debuffs, don't remember the specifics out of my head

    Champ - Rend armour debuff

    Warden - Marked Target mits debuff

    Guardian - nothing I believe

    Could have easily missed some.
    Captain-General Narthrivor r15 Hunter - r12 Warden - r12 Champion - r7 Captain - r6 Guardian - Phoenix Legion and Innocent raid alliance - Laurelin EN-RP

  4. #4
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    So, the thing with Hunter currently, is that you don't 'have' to use fire-oils, it is optional, depending on the LoreMaster / your group set up. If you have a Beorning & a Warden, you have no need for the LM to do their buffs because the Beorning & Warden will do the equivalent: Raven (If used without Catmint) + Tar + Warden debuff + Hunter pen shot = -31.5% Tactical (Fire) Mitigation / Beorning + Warden + Hunter pen shot = -31.5% Physical Mitigation.

    There are also some errors in your list.

    Lore-Master:
    Bear, Shatter Arms: +10% Incoming Ranged Damage (30s Duration)
    Bog-Lurker, Root Strike: +5% Incoming Ranged Critical Chance (30s Duration)

    Captain:
    To Arms: Between +15% and +25% Damage (25s duration / 1m Cooldown)
    Standard of War buff is only 20% not 30%. Standard of War (From a red traited captain) will also give you a stacking critical chance % buff up to +5% whilst the banner is active.
    Oathbreakers Shame is 20s duration not 10s.
    Penetrating Cry: -15% Attack Duration (1m duration)
    Rousing Cry: +5% Ranged Damage (1m duration)

    Burglar:
    Reveal Weakness (Currently sits at +13.6% incoming damage in Yellow, (Due to be changed/nerfed in an upcoming patch).
    Trick skills (i.e enrage) are 39s in Duration.
    Quite A Snag is +3% incoming damage (15s Duration / 5s Cooldown).
    Vital Points + Burglar Class Essence reduce the targets Critical Defence by -15%.

    Runekeeper:
    Mystifying Flame -15% Fire Mitigaion
    Molten Flame -15% Armour
    Worth noting that both these debuffs require fire traits which no RKs will be using at the higher tiers due to how weak the line is.

    Minstrel:
    Anthem of War no longer stacks 3 times, and it offers +15% melee and ranged damage.
    Anthem of Third Age - Melody (Yellow-Line): +10% Damage
    Anthem of Prowess: -5% Attack duration

    Beorning:
    Bee Swarm: -15% Physical mitigation (15s duration / 15s cooldown)
    Armour Crush: +15% Incoming damage (10s duration / 16s cooldown)

    Warden:
    Marked Target: Between -5% and -12.5% Physical Mitigation
    Diminshed Target: Between -5% and -7.5% Tactical Mitigation

  5. #5
    Ok updated!
    You can contribute to this thread...

  6. #6
    I've got a spread sheet that looks very similar to this thread; ill toss in my 2c.

    Warden:
    Marked Target: 5-12% physical mitigation debuff, but should be used with the double cast legacy in yellow for the 34ish% chance to give -10%/-10% rather than just -12%. For redline the average is about the same for imbued/unimbued Marked Target/

    Rune Keeper:
    In my experience the Molten Flame/Mystifying Flame procs are resisted so much that it makes these skills not 100% uptime. I've not gone through and checked what the average uptime is yet but there is something buggy with those 2 effects.
    also Flurry of Words with an unimbued swappy can give it a 25s duration/25s cooldown.

    Now for the edge cases. I realize your original list was the usually raid setting stuff but I wanna shine light on some extra effects.
    Yellow Guard:
    Singular Focus (capstone): small armor rend (22-37k) when crit with parry response skill. not 100% uptime since stacking crit in a tank build is a hassle, but its something.

    Blue Lore Master:
    Fellowship's Friend- Bog Lurker: gives +5% ranged crit chance to entire fellowship for 10-12s when the bog lurker crits. Now this is a very small window but with a careful eye and some practice the LM can maintain Raven, Bear, and both of these Bog Lurker buffs. I've toyed with this build in 3/6mans and call it the "breaks hunters" build.
    Fellowship's Friend- Cats: gives +5% damage when the lynx or saber cat crits. Not sure if this can be maintained as well as the Bog Lurker effect but I'm sure there is someone out there better than me that can pull it off.

  7. #7
    Red cappy herald rend (capstone) gives a pretty significant phys mit rating debuff at a practical 100% uptime. Worked out to like -5.9%, iirc, on a training dummy which has baseline 40.2% phys mit. I don't know if it is more or less effective when put on a target with a -% debuff. This plus bear bees plus ancient craft (I havent tested but would expect a large -armor rating debuff is more effective against phys mit than tact mit) really tips you away fire oil in raid.

    Rk molten flame -15% armor does far less than the tooltip would have you think. Play around with it on a dummy and be very disappointed. Perhaps the dummy has little armor and just straight phys and tact mit. Maybe it works better on an actual boss.

    I love this list, btw.
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Ulxart, Loremaster

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    So, the thing with Hunter currently, is that you don't 'have' to use fire-oils, it is optional, depending on the LoreMaster / your group set up. If you have a Beorning & a Warden, you have no need for the LM to do their buffs because the Beorning & Warden will do the equivalent: Raven (If used without Catmint) + Tar + Warden debuff + Hunter pen shot = -31.5% Tactical (Fire) Mitigation / Beorning + Warden + Hunter pen shot = -31.5% Physical Mitigation.
    This topic is something I would like to understand better. I am a bit confused as to when hunters should apply which type or no type of oil to get maximum dps. So far, I have been following this guidance: If there is a LM, I use fire oil, if there is a Beo, I do not use any oil. To keep it simple, let's ignore damage weaknesses of the various creature types for now. I am really just interested in using oils depending on the debuffs for mitigation here.

    The above statement is not entirely clear to me, or rather, I still have questions. What I understand from your above quote:

    LM raven (no catmint) -10% fire mits + LM tar -10% fire mits + Warden diminished target -7.5% tactical mit + Hunter pen shot -4% physical mit = 31.5% total (LM + Warden in your group), requires damage type fire to profit from tactical/fire mits of the LM and Warden
    Beo bees -15% physical mit + Warden marked target -12.5% physical mit + Hunter pen shot -4% physical mit = 31.5% phyiscal (Beo + Warden in your group, requires no oil to profit from physical mits of the Beo + Warden

    So far so good. Makes total sense.

    First question I have is, why no catmint? That would allow for another 10% mits for the LM, making that setup go up to 41.5% mit debuff, no? Are you not taking it into account because of the short duration/long cooldown?

    From a perspective of a Warden, does it make any difference for them to apply either marked target or diminished target? Or is it all the same to them in terms of difficulty? Do they prefer one or the other? Or are they always applying both at the same time? Are targets debuffed permanently?

    A LM is present almost all the time in raids. With only a LM present (no Beo), we will use fire oil. In case there is also a Beo present, it really comes down to if a Warden is also present. Beo vs. LM without a warden will make LM fire/tactical mits higher than Beo physical mits(hunter oil perspective only), correct?

    Also, what about the cooldowns? I understand that e.g. Sticky Tar cannot be permanent, because the cooldown is longer than the duration of the debuff. If all skills are used immediately when available, that would still make the LM give you better mits, i.e. 6.66% percent for sticky tar instead of 10% + raven 10% = 16.66%. With catmint it would go up to roughly 19.33% (mathematically speaking, I understand this is just a theoretical value), compared to Beo with bees (15%). Any other cooldowns (other than catmint and sticky tar) to take into consideration?

    A lot of questions, but with these tight boss fights in Remmo sometimes, every bit counts.
    Last edited by Sk0field; Jun 13 2020 at 05:52 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sk0field View Post
    From a perspective of a Warden, does it make any difference for them to apply either marked target or diminished target? Or is it all the same to them in terms of difficulty? Do they prefer one or the other? Or are they always applying both at the same time? Are targets debuffed permanently?
    These are both 1-click jav skills that last 35 to 60 seconds depending on traits; 18s cooldown, so it only fits in once per rotation. Baseline for both is -5% in red and -10% in yellow. Both can get another -2.5% to them with an unimbued weapon swap. Marked Target (phys) benefits from an imbued weapon legacy to get a 34.8% chance to double-proc the debuff. New applications of each just overwrite the old; the double proc for marked is considered a separate debuff for overwriting.

    When the baseline is -5% (red) and duration 35s, most would rather just have a flat -2.5% added to each rather than fish for double procs on Marked. So typically -7.5% to phys and tact. When baseline is -5% (red) and duration is 60s (less common), it's sort of a wash but maybe someone would choose to fish for double procs rather than go with unimbued then. If so, -5% ~half the time & -10% ~half the time to phys and -7.5% to tact.

    When the baseline is -10% (yellow) at any duration (usually 60s), it is better to fish for double procs to get either -10% or -20%. At a 34.8% chance per ~32s rotation for a 60s buff, Marked works out to being 10% ~half the time and 20% ~half the time (more if you use Marked Target closer to its 18s cooldown, but that puts it off-kilter in the rotation where it is typically used as filler between dead time at a specific spot). And flat -12.5% for tact.

    One more trick to double-proccing Marked Target that good for specific burst phases, if you can swing it, and a trap for sustained fights: if double-procced Marked is up, either two -5%s in red or two -10%s in yellow for 60s each, next time you use Marked if you use the unimbued version for another -2.5%, you'll overwrite one of those buffs, leaving you with either -7.5%(@60s) + -5%(@~28s) in red or -12.5%(@60s) + -10%(@~28s) in yellow.

    Yellow line works out to a bit lower personal DPS than red. You can make yellow look pretty close in dummy parses if you do it right, but the yellow parses benefit from better debuffs that will be evened outin a raid.

    The short answer is the warden is only a factor for hunters to consider if they're fishing for double procs, and that's typically in yellow spec which is far less common among wardens generally and becoming more in vogue for raiders.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sk0field View Post
    Also, what about the cooldowns? I understand that e.g. Sticky Tar cannot be permanent, because the cooldown is longer than the duration of the debuff. If all skills are used immediately when available, that would still make the LM give you better mits, i.e. 6.66% percent for sticky tar instead of 10% + raven 10% = 16.66%. With catmint it would go up to roughly 19.33%
    Catmint raven benediction could be up all the time if the LM used catmint for it instead of the heal pet; no choice between the two if they have blue 4-set. But also consider Ancient Craft (50% uptime) which as an armor rend hits phys mit more than tact mit, red cappy herald rend which as 100% uptime working out to -5.9% phys mit on dummies (no clue on bosses), and yellow champ armor rend. A boss's phys mit in raid to you with bear and any kind of warden will be at or close to 0% considering your Bodkin Arrows, and absolute 0 after ancient craft (Bratha T3 has ~48% to both mits; that's all the testing I've done and guess that T2 bosses are like 45%ish). Same for tact mit if your loremaster uses raven and tar just for you (red RKs aren't meta). So if it's all the same either way, you should just go without oil to let your LM do something more important.
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Ulxart, Loremaster

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk0field View Post
    First question I have is, why no catmint? That would allow for another 10% mits for the LM, making that setup go up to 41.5% mit debuff, no? Are you not taking it into account because of the short duration/long cooldown?
    Hunters are not as staple in T3 as they were in past raids - first point.
    LMs have to work a LOT LOT harder to maintain all pet debuffs for a Hunter (especially when there is so much else for the LM to be doing in the fight = boss 2 tier 3) - second point.
    The LMs we use in our raids are always traited Yellow-Red instead of Yellow-Blue with the searing embers set, because, contrary to popular belief LM damage is not sub-par nor is it irrelevant, it is as important as anyone else, and for them to not be DPSing, when able, makes very little sense to me in the first place. Therefore no catmint is available anyway - third point.
    When it matters, as in, during DPS checks, boss 2 when you kill the daughter / boss 4 during topples, mitigations will be at zero anyway, because ancient craft will be on the target, so having a further -10% from the Raven does nothing because -10% of 0 is still 0 - fourth point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sk0field View Post
    From a perspective of a Warden, does it make any difference for them to apply either marked target or diminished target? Or is it all the same to them in terms of difficulty? Do they prefer one or the other? Or are they always applying both at the same time? Are targets debuffed permanently?
    It takes no time and no effort for the warden to use both, with both debuffs having a 100% uptime, it is also key to their own DPS, due to the fact they use a combination of physical and light (tactical) bleeds, so a warden would NEED to use both for themselves regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sk0field View Post
    A LM is present almost all the time in raids. With only a LM present (no Beo), we will use fire oil. In case there is also a Beo present, it really comes down to if a Warden is also present. Beo vs. LM without a warden will make LM fire/tactical mits higher than Beo physical mits(hunter oil perspective only), correct?

    Also, what about the cooldowns? I understand that e.g. Sticky Tar cannot be permanent, because the cooldown is longer than the duration of the debuff. If all skills are used immediately when available, that would still make the LM give you better mits, i.e. 6.66% percent for sticky tar instead of 10% + raven 10% = 16.66%. With catmint it would go up to roughly 19.33% (mathematically speaking, I understand this is just a theoretical value), compared to Beo with bees (15%). Any other cooldowns (other than catmint and sticky tar) to take into consideration?
    I cannot speak to other raid groups as I know in our groups we are always using a Beorning and always using a Warden, but it is as you described it:

    LM only = Fire Oil
    LM + Beorning = This is a tricky one, this will come down to whether or not your LM is using Catmint with Raven, because lest we forget Tar is not a 100% uptime debuff, whereas the Bees mitigation is. I know you did the overall calculations but in practice, it is always a little different.
    LM + Warden = Fire Oil
    LM + Beorning + Warden = Dealers choice (as both mitigations will have the same amount of debuff), but easier on the LM if no Oil.

  11. #11
    It seems like Hunters deal actually more dmg without any oils inside Remorchant.
    The cause for this is most likely that Spiders/Insects are weak to Beleriand and Light Dmg.
    But i guess if you don't have a warden and/or bear, Fire will be a lot better.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum.
    The best way is via Discord:
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    The cause for this is most likely that Spiders/Insects are weak to Beleriand and Light Dmg.
    Not the case in Remm. The devs evened out the damage types so nothing is inherently better than other types in raid.
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Ulxart, Loremaster

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Not the case in Remm. The devs evened out the damage types so nothing is inherently better than other types in raid.
    Well try it you selfe, we tested it on ID1.
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum.
    The best way is via Discord:
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    Well try it you selfe, we tested it on ID1.
    I've tested between beleriand and ancient dwarf on shelob t2 (solo, 5G repair bill) as well as most types of trash. No difference.
    Argendauss, Captain
    Rechart, Warden
    Hrodgart, Beorning
    Ulxart, Loremaster

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    I've tested between beleriand and ancient dwarf on shelob t2 (solo, 5G repair bill) as well as most types of trash. No difference.
    Yeah maby they are not weak vs. bele, but weaker vs physical damage in general.
    We tested fireoil vs. non oil with all common raid debuffs
    If you want to contact me, pls don't write me a Private Message on the Forum.
    The best way is via Discord:
    Gertes#5389

 

 

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