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  1. #1
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    Net of Darkness Solo/Duo Version

    I know that this might be controversial but I really like that the new instances that have been released for MM have a solo/duo version for story purposes but with no real rewards. It would be awesome if the new raid had that option as well. I don't know how this might be done but even if it can be scaled down to 'say' level 20 or 30 so that we can still experience the lore. A desperate plea to SSG to make this happen!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nannybots12 View Post
    I don't know how this might be done but even if it can be scaled down to 'say' level 20 or 30 so that we can still experience the lore. A desperate plea to SSG to make this happen!
    I don't think a Level 20 Shelob would feel much like Shelob at all. But you do have the opportunity to see everyone's favorite demon in spider-form in the Cirith Ungol quest chains that are part of the Minas Morgul expansion.

    MoL

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    I don't think a Level 20 Shelob would feel much like Shelob at all. But you do have the opportunity to see everyone's favorite demon in spider-form in the Cirith Ungol quest chains that are part of the Minas Morgul expansion.

    MoL
    Thanks MoL. I was happy to see her in that quest chain. It would just be great to wrap up the story of both her and the Pale Herald. The recent 6 mans scaled to solo/duo (even with the ranger support in the Houses of Black Lore) and it would be great to see that in this raid even if it had zero meaningful rewards. I just love the story!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    I don't think a Level 20 Shelob would feel much like Shelob at all. But you do have the opportunity to see everyone's favorite demon in spider-form in the Cirith Ungol quest chains that are part of the Minas Morgul expansion.

    MoL
    Dear MoL,

    I humbly ask you to please consider otherwise. Shelob doesn't need to be scaled-down completely in a solo / duo version. Ideally, in that kind of exciting version, you'd want Celeborn, the Galadhrim, and the Ithilien rangers to function as active NPCs that Shelob targets at random and can seriously damage, kind of like how you have the Dwarves to assist you in Thikil-gundu. Shelob doesn't need to be easy, and there can be mechanics where, if you don't do a particular kind of skill or remove a poison or what have you in a particular moment, "Her Ladyship" kills you.

    But please allow others, who might have less time on their hands to do what they need to do to experience the raid to the end, the chance to experience a challenging, solo / duo version of the story for the story's own sake (which, incidentally, I find -less- important to focus-on when I raid since there's a lot of group-coordination stuff happening plus usually a healthy dose of friendship and camaraderie, which in my experience, doesn't translate into me focusing on the story for the story's sake, and more on just playing my role the best I can with the class mechanics at the right moments). How's my Hobbit guardian going to finish what Samwise Gamgee started now? *chuckles* But, please- reconsider this. Many care for BiS gear, and many also care about the awesome storytelling that you are doing; those interests don't always align, though they often do, and that's ok. Please consider opening-up this story. Other MMOs do it flawlessly; one I know in particular has plenty of times its player storyline crosses with its own version of a raid or instance, and in those cases, they give challenging but soloable versions of those stories and allies to help the player through them. Still challenging? Oh yes; bosses don't just keel-over because a player used a shiny skill. Shelob should not be a walk in the park, any version of an encounter with her should have a similar "scare" factor as that brilliant Cirith Ungol instance, but at the same time, I do believe that the likes of Celeborn are capable of taking her on even with the challenge, and that could be the way a solo / duo version could work in this case.

    Honestly, I think if Celeborn, with who he is and the power that he wields (LoE), was to solo Shelob, they'd go toe-to-toes; I wouldn't want to underestimate what Celeborn and Galadriel are capable of. I'm sure Celeborn, a player, and a few lesser allies could tackle Shelob in the solo / duo circumstances if you consider that 1 Hobbit had, like Luke with the Death Star, that millionth of a chance opening, and Sam took it when he got Shelob from down below with Sting. Celeborn is far more powerful than Samwise Gamgee, and probably has far better odds than Sam did, and with enough distractions from the rangers, the Elves, and the player playing the player's part with skill, it could be done in the solo / duo circumstances. I would really relish that challenge and ability to play it that way. Keep the shinies and the BiS gear for the raid version; please let others also be able, with some skill and challenge, to experience the story for its own sake in that "epic hero" feeling that solo or duo play more carefully facilitates (since, in raids, after all, there's a lot of necessary voice-chat and player coordination that has to happen, and so its hard to feel like, 'Wow, I'm helping to fulfill what Frodo and Sam started here,' when all that's going on for good reasons), and of course, it goes without saying, no BiS gear as rewards, maybe do it for a larger number of Ithil tokens or something so that the Raid version still has its claim to stardom and its BiS gear and exclusive stuff for raiders, etc.

    The main thing I hope for is that the satisfaction can go all around here; raiders get their challenge, hard-earned BiS gear, etc., like normal, and others could go in it just for the story and only for the story with some convincing challenge involved. There's no reason in the world for a smaller number of players to somehow have less challenge in the frame of the game-lore that you have eloquently and excellently established through the presence of Celeborn and the Elves.

    Please, please, pretty please? With a cherry on top?

    P.S. 1 more thing: If I wanted to make a solo / duo version while avoiding the "level 20 Shelob" problem, I'd restrict this version to level 130 only and use the Cirith Ungol questline to "gate" its availability
    Last edited by Phantion; Feb 25 2020 at 11:32 PM.
    Phantion no longer has a character named Phantion in-game. He transferred to Landroval.

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    I don't think a Level 20 Shelob would feel much like Shelob at all. But you do have the opportunity to see everyone's favorite demon in spider-form in the Cirith Ungol quest chains that are part of the Minas Morgul expansion.

    MoL
    This feels like a bit of a step backwards in modernising the way that instances and raids work.

    I absolutely agree that one of their purposes is to provide challenging content to players who want to group up, and I see no problem with this. However, the issue comes when story moments are locked inside these instances/raids, and those who don’t/can’t group up with other players for any reason (particularly in the case of waiting for a raid group to assemble) will never get to experience that story.

    Great strides were made to improve that with the Grey Mountains instances, which had solo versions and were greatly appreciated. The Gladdenmere instance has the same - but 6 mans and raids across the board should have this option to prevent players from missing out on the story.

    It is all very well for players to meet Shelob prior to this, but without the raid, it seems likely that the full story will be missing things.

    Solutions used to get around this in the past have been scaling instances (running the Pelennor 3-men at lower levels so the full story of the battle could be experienced), but this isn’t possible with Throne, Abyss or Anvil - and these are vast chunks of the game story that soloers cannot access.

    These solo versions don’t have to have good rewards or challenging mechanics - they just need to allow access to the story. You started on the right road with the Grey Mountains instances - don’t do a U turn now!
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  6. #6
    I support this totally. I have only done Abyss of Mordath T1 one time with my kinship, and I have very bad memories of Anvil, because it took me forever to get decent gear for my main, and by that time, NOBODY run Anvil T1, everyone ran only T2 and thus I was banned from running it. Eventually I could do it spending HOURS trying to get people, and killing the last boss was an extreme good luck because in my raid, after days, we reached last boss but then reset happened. Luckily, I logged the next day (or next-next day) and in that very exact moment there was a raid Anvil T1 looking for dps for last boss only, I inmediately joined, and this is how I was able to finish Anvil, just some weeks before Minas Morgul hit the live servers.

    I really don't want this to happen with Remmorchant. To be honest, I was testing Remmorchant in beta server to see how the raid is, in case this same situation happen to me in live servers. Too bad I couldn't test past boss 3 because not enough people online to test.

    SSG, please, just make a solo version of the raid, you already have the elves NPC that help you at the start of the raid, and they continue the storyline after boss defeats. Don't even put chests as rewards, nobody cares. It's just an important part of the story and I think there should be a solo version. The mechanics are cool, except for those that require more than 1 player (pheromones for example, I think). Just a 130 non-scaled version of Remmorchant adapted for solo version, you just have to scale morale and damage of mobs, and tweak some mechanics and it's done. Please!

    I remember, literally, when I was trying to get people to run Anvil T1, people saying me "T1? I NEVER RUN T1, I ONLY DO T2+". This is absolutely terrible for a raid, specially for the Shelob raid, so important for the storyline, because now, casuals who want to experience the storyline and don't care for gear could say "well, I can at least try to get decent gear to run T1 to see the story", only to find that NOPE, because by the time casuals get decent gear to run the raid, hopeful to get an spot in a raid, the raiders will be only doing T2+, and thus as your gear is not good enough, you won't go. Stupid.
    Last edited by Fegefeuer; Feb 26 2020 at 09:12 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantion View Post
    ... the chance to experience a challenging, solo / duo version of the story for the story's own sake...
    Challenging for whom? The encounter would need to be completely redesigned from the ground up, complete with fantastically overpowered buffs to keep the solo player alive and able to contribute to the fight, and it's either going to be a complete cakewalk for everybody or too hard for a percentage of the players who asked for it (for example: Gothmog's Rage, which did have those buffs and still proved much too difficult for a pretty large percentage of the audience, while still managing to be too easy for the rest). The team made a really interesting and challenging battle against Shelob (and friends!), and stripping out all the challenge of that fight feels counterproductive to me: she's Shelob, very high in the pantheon of fantasy's greatest monsters, and she should be TOUGH. I do think there's an audience out there who would absolutely eat up a story-focused raiding video series, if such a thing existed, so you can still see how the story unfolds, but watering down the encounter feels like it de-fangs the experience.

    The thing is: I love Shelob. She's a major part of my very favorite section of The Lord of the Rings, and I think Shelob slinking away to an uncertain fate following Sam's heroics is a perfect conclusion to her story. Replacing Samwise the Stout-hearted with the player in a solo instance (even with your favorite Elf buddy nearby to provide sufficient cover for the question of 'How can you stand toe to horrible foot with Shelob?' doesn't make me happy. He faced her alone, and that was significant; the player, no matter how amazing (and you're all pretty amazing!) shouldn't be able to do the same. As a designer, I of course know all the counterarguments ('She was wounded!' 'You've done this before!' 'Just have her run away!' etc. etc.), but I don't find them compelling in this case. The team enjoys making solo versions of smaller group-size instances, but "make a solo raid" feels like a bridge too far. Raiding might not be for you, but then again maybe Shelob is the only villain of sufficient notoriety to get you to try it - and who knows, maybe you'd like it.

    MoL

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    ....MoL
    I agree 100% with all you said. People need not to forget that they are playing MMOrpg a game that is desinged to be played with people... PEOPLE... REAL PEOPLE!!!! Every major villian should be in raid version as a side quest . Also a suggest a raid version of "The fallen kings" instance in a later part of the expansion. Just serve it as extra content in the summer . Nasgul defenitely deserve to be raid . Witch king is the hand of Sauron !!!!
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    ... 'How can you stand toe to horrible foot with Shelob?' ...
    The Balrog. Nuff said.

    Tbh, from my perspective, I'd be quite happy to have the scaled down (probably still raid) level 20? half mob morale? whatever - but not until the next level cap increase, when the raid is pretty redundant anyway.
    A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress! Vote today!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleziana View Post
    ...People need not to forget that they are playing MMOrpg a game that is desinged to be played with people... PEOPLE... REAL PEOPLE!!!! ...
    That tired old saw? Trading, talking, playing alongside, doing chicken runs with support is all "with people"... MMo doesn't mean you have to raid.
    A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress! Vote today!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DancesInTrees View Post
    The Balrog. Nuff said.
    When did we, ever, as solo players enter into a 1v1 with the Balrog .... ?

    Bearing in mind I can only account for... 4 cases in which we encounter the/a Balrog?

    2 being session plays, neither of which you are your own character which makes that a moot point, and the remaining 2 being in Raid settings = Thaurlach and the fear apparition of Durin's Bane in Ost Dunhoth.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    Challenging for whom? The encounter would need to be completely redesigned from the ground up, complete with fantastically overpowered buffs to keep the solo player alive and able to contribute to the fight, and it's either going to be a complete cakewalk for everybody or too hard for a percentage of the players who asked for it (for example: Gothmog's Rage, which did have those buffs and still proved much too difficult for a pretty large percentage of the audience, while still managing to be too easy for the rest). The team made a really interesting and challenging battle against Shelob (and friends!), and stripping out all the challenge of that fight feels counterproductive to me: she's Shelob, very high in the pantheon of fantasy's greatest monsters, and she should be TOUGH. I do think there's an audience out there who would absolutely eat up a story-focused raiding video series, if such a thing existed, so you can still see how the story unfolds, but watering down the encounter feels like it de-fangs the experience.

    The thing is: I love Shelob. She's a major part of my very favorite section of The Lord of the Rings, and I think Shelob slinking away to an uncertain fate following Sam's heroics is a perfect conclusion to her story. Replacing Samwise the Stout-hearted with the player in a solo instance (even with your favorite Elf buddy nearby to provide sufficient cover for the question of 'How can you stand toe to horrible foot with Shelob?' doesn't make me happy. He faced her alone, and that was significant; the player, no matter how amazing (and you're all pretty amazing!) shouldn't be able to do the same. As a designer, I of course know all the counterarguments ('She was wounded!' 'You've done this before!' 'Just have her run away!' etc. etc.), but I don't find them compelling in this case. The team enjoys making solo versions of smaller group-size instances, but "make a solo raid" feels like a bridge too far. Raiding might not be for you, but then again maybe Shelob is the only villain of sufficient notoriety to get you to try it - and who knows, maybe you'd like it.

    MoL
    I really appreciate you engaging with this topic MoL, but with the greatest respect I think that the key point is being missed here - it often isn’t that people don’t want to raid, but can’t, due to the solid time commitment it takes. For context, I raided a great deal up to 2017, but simply can’t do so any more as my playing time comes in short bursts, which raids cannot fit into. This leads to a solo player who has worked their way through a lengthy storyline not being able to access the conclusion of that story due to it being locked into a raid.

    Now, I’m aware that a lot has been done to mitigate this problem in the past:
    - Epic battles made it possible for soldiers to experience Helm’s Deep, so it wasn’t done as just 3 mans and up
    - The Erebor cluster (and several others) were made scaleable, so they could be soloed/duoed
    - The Grey Mountains instances had solo versions created, so we could experience the climax of the Dori and Nori story
    - The Anvil story is explained to us in the epic, so we don’t miss out on what happened there
    - Places like the Rift have their own separate story, so you aren’t forced to miss the climax of the story - you can choose to engage with that content or not, but it doesn’t affect the rest of the story

    However, more recently, the story has been blocked off as key parts are hidden in raids which are not scaleable:
    - A key encounter with Gothmog and the death of several important Rohirrim (e.g. Grimbold, who our characters have known for a long time) happens in Throne
    - The conclusion to the Stout Axes story is hidden in the Abyss raid
    - The death of Vethug, and the mystery of Thafar Gathol are all within the Anvil raid
    - Lost lore is hidden in the Abyss raid

    I’ve not been able to check out the Shelob raid, but if this provides a conclusion to the story that started back in North Mirkwood (with the spiders fleeing south), and continued in the Vales, then that too is going to be a restricted story.

    I suppose my point is, why go so far along the road of allowing everyone to access the story in some cases without going the whole hog and doing it for raids? I appreciate the argument about Shelob being super-powerful etc., but I feel that the majority of people in this game are here for the story more than the challenge - and if they want the truly challenging experience, then the raid itself is not going anywhere! I acknowledge that designing a whole new version (for soloers) would be a great deal of extra effort, but I think the amount of people that would complete the instance would be sufficient to make this worthwhile - and if not, making it scaleable is a less elegant, but potentially less time consuming solution.

    I totally understand if you disagree - I just think many other players, like me, would value the story in raids being made soloable in some format.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    Raiding might not be for you, but then again maybe Shelob is the only villain of sufficient notoriety to get you to try it - and who knows, maybe you'd like it.

    MoL
    The prospect of fighting a balrog was precisely what got me interested in raiding in late 2007 or early 2008. I was so eager to experience a fight against a balrog that I gradually worked my way into Vilya's raiding community, and I fell in love with raiding along the way. Twelve years later, I still consider myself a raider, though my raid group has shrunk enough over the years that we often struggle to get enough people for even a six-man instance. So I'm precisely the kind of player you're picturing here, MadeOfLions: a desire to experience the story of the Rift drove me, a relatively inexperienced MMO player and a first-time raider, toward raiding.

    The problem is that raiding has become increasingly inaccessible to first-time raiders over the last several years. Twelve years ago, I, as a mediocre champ who knew next to nothing about playing in a group, was able to join pick-up groups or my friends' cobbled-together raid groups, alongside a mix of semi-casual and semi-hard-core raiders, and meaningfully contribute to the raid. Along the way, I learned how to be a decent raider.

    That would not be possible in 2020. My raid group attempted The Anvil of Winterstith only once. We had about seven people from our raid group, and we recruited a few more people from /world. I can't speak to those other players, but my raid group was formed in the Rift days, and we have been playing together twice weekly ever since. We were reasonably well-geared and very experienced players. The first boss, however, trounced our raid so thoroughly that we broke up after about an hour and my raid group has never even considered going back.

    I haven't attempted the new raid on Bullroarer, but if it's anything like the last few raids, there's almost no chance that an inexperienced player would be able to experience the new raid in any meaningful way. People aren't going to PUG their way through Remmorchant the way people did the Rift. There aren't going to be any impromptu raids cobbled together from three or four kinships like the ones that played Helegrod. No semi-casual players like I was in 2008 will be able to take more than a few steps into Remmorchant, much less get to fight Shelob. I doubt even my vestigial raid group will ever see her. A handful of players who belong to dedicated raiding kins will be able to experience Remmorchant. Everyone else will be entirely locked out of that experience.

    The problem, I think, is the way the difficulty tiers are tuned, and the fact that it's likely that only the most dedicated raiders test raids on Bullroarer, so the difficulty is tuned to their skill level. Tier 1 will be tuned so that it is reasonably challenging for the most elite raiders in LOTRO, because otherwise those raiders will complain that the raid is too easy, and the difficulty will only go up from there. A better way to tune the difficulty, I think, is to design tier 1 as a way for anyone to be able to experience the story of the raid if they want to. Tune it such that a group of first-time raiders can form an impromptu raid group on /world and, while they may not be able to complete the entire raid on their first try, they might be able to take down a boss or two. Then they can join another raid group the next week and try again, and maybe get one boss further, or at least they'll be able to defeat the first boss in fewer tries. And then, after a few months, they'll be able to work their way toward Shelob. That was the way the Rift worked, and I think that's part of the reason there is so much nostalgia for the Rift. Then tune tier 2 around groups like my raid group, who are experienced raiders but who are no longer the largest or best-geared or most-disciplined raid group around. Or tune it with the idea that a group that has mastered tier 1 can challenge themselves. Tier 3 can be where the real challenge starts, for raid groups who have the time and talent to dedicate themselves to more serious raiding. Tier 4 can be even harder, and tier 5 can be harder still.

    I understand not wanting to make a solo version of a raid. The difficulty level of recent raids, however, has been such that the vast majority of players, and even some experienced raiders, are locked out of raiding. That's a problem, especially when important stories and iconic villains are increasingly sequestered into raids. Accessibility has been a problem for raiding in LOTRO for years now. Providing solo versions of instances has been a great way to allow people to experience the stories of those instances. People want to be able to experience the stories in the raids, too, though, which can be done not by making a solo version of those raids but by making sure that the difficulty tiers scale in a way that accommodate both casual players and hard-core raiders, both new and experienced raiders, both PUGs and dedicated raiding kins.
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  14. #14
    Warning: Spoilers

    I gave up on the main story in this game a long time ago. Almost all the decent villains disappear into group spaces, never to be seen again, their stories unresolved, or some character created by the writer kills the villain while I pretty much just stand and watch. (The final battle with Mazog is one of the most disappointing finales I have ever experienced in a role playing game) Players like me get left with stuff like Crúmgam, Lheu Brenin, and Reeve Athelward. *laughs* (I always let the kid kill Lheu Brenin.) For great villains and fun solo battles against them (on level) I go to other games. That is sad because soloing group dungeons in this game offers some super fun and exciting encounters.

    I do feel sorry for the writers making solo stuff. I would find it extremely frustrating and limiting building encounters for players with very little skill, using the worst possible characters, because everyone needs to get through it.

    Anyway, I already lost interest in Shelob since I will never deal with her in a meaningful way.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by SophieTheEnchantress View Post
    Players like me get left with stuff like...
    You didn't get left out of anything. It's your own choice not to follow through and make the requirements.

    Also, no to scaling down raids. Reasons are self-explanatory.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DancesInTrees View Post
    The Balrog. Nuff said.
    You mean the balrog that requires a raid of 12 on-level? That balrog?
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  17. #17
    I totally understand the point of MoL. But then, now that you are still working in the raid, you should make that T1 is worth running, because if not, it will happen the same as with Anvil, that after a few weeks of it being released, raiders will only run it at T2+ and then casuals will be banned from it because nobody will be running T1. You could say: then all casuals can meet and do T1, and my answer to this is, can you read again? CASUAL. It will be a casuality that many casuals are logged at the same time and up to do the raid at T1...
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaboch View Post
    You didn't get left out of anything. It's your own choice not to follow through and make the requirements.

    Also, no to scaling down raids. Reasons are self-explanatory.
    The reasons being self-explanatory would assume that we would hold the same views and values as you. Given the lack of understanding you show about why people do not raid, this seems unlikely.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    The team enjoys making solo versions of smaller group-size instances, but "make a solo raid" feels like a bridge too far. Raiding might not be for you, but then again maybe Shelob is the only villain of sufficient notoriety to get you to try it - and who knows, maybe you'd like it.

    MoL
    I'm an dedicated solo player who tries to get into as much content and gear as possible. MoL's comments make sense to me. I'd love to see this instance, but raiding is not for me. This does not mean raiding should not exist. Many people like and I'm glad it's available. I'll take my solo instances, give me a path to near raid gear (even with a long grind), and I'll watch the raid on YouTube sometime.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist View Post
    The reasons being self-explanatory would assume that we would hold the same views and values as you. Given the lack of understanding you show about why people do not raid, this seems unlikely.
    Alright, time to explain.

    When you purposefully go out of your way to ignore a part of the game, don't expect to enjoy it's entirety. Furthermore, if you think there are people like me, for whom you're insinuating lack the same views and values, think again.

    There are plenty of us who care enough about the story as well, we don't just grind out fancy teals/golds. Hell, I've always finished raids on T1s in slower groups cause I wanted to see everything before I get tired of it and move to loot.

    So, no.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaboch View Post
    alright, time to explain.

    When you purposefully go out of your way to ignore a part of the game, don't expect to enjoy it's entirety. Furthermore, if you think there are people like me, for whom you're insinuating lack the same views and values, think again.
    Signed!!

  22. #22
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    I understand MoL's reasoning, and also don't expect any resolution to most storylines in this game to be friendly to solo players because, as far as I can tell, they never have been. Storylines very regularly disappear into group content, occasionally without warning. Which makes for an extremely disjointed experience when one is new and there aren't exactly crowds of people around ready to run decade old group content on-level

    Most of it, I went back after fifty levels and solo'd things. Some of it is worth doing still for one reason or another and I got lucky enough to find people around still doing instances for those reasons (Throne has its coins, Abyss has a book completionists want, etc..)

    So it goes. No good answer for it. Just how this game is set up and apparently always has been. The storylines end in fellowship instances or raids, therefore, only people who are willing to group up or raid get to see the whole story. And there's no story in the world that's good enough to convince me to start raiding regularly again. Done it before, won't do it again. Happy to pug in two or three years though, since all signs point to no one wanting a hunter this go round, and on Laurelin, T1 raid pugs aren't exactly thick on the ground

  23. #23
    CaerArianrhod's Avatar
    CaerArianrhod is offline Rohirrim Scout
    Guardian of Erebrandir's Horseshoe's Secret
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    Raiding might not be for you, but then again maybe Shelob is the only villain of sufficient notoriety to get you to try it - and who knows, maybe you'd like it.
    MoL
    Unfortunately he or she will not like it.
    Some other poster here pointed already out the main problem with the raid: It is and will be simple inaccessible for so many players.
    I do not have any opinion about if there should be a solo version of the Remmorchant raid, but i have an opinion about the 12 man raid.
    The big changes that we saw in this game since 2007 do not need further explanation and as an other poster told already, the requirements to be able to raid, became higher and higher.

    Just for the near past: i was asked many times to lead a "chaos raid" (a mostly pug raid) in the Abyss on T1. There was much, much less requests for Anvil T1. And i already know, that there will be again much less such requests for Remmorchant.
    I know so many players who would like to raid, but the requirements your colleagues created for the raid even on T1 are simple too high for this players. As someone said: Rift, Helegrod, Ost Dunhot, Dar Nabugud or Orthanc or Draigoch, alls this raids were possible with pugs and/or average equipped players on T1.

    You told me once, that you are limited in that what you can do with the story (as i asked about Isildur's 4 sons in Mordor besieged). Such a limitation exists for your colleagues, who designed the new raid too. Is is the game engine itself. But otherwise than you they don't seem to recognize these limitations.
    For sure, we like to see new mechanics in the game and have new and amazing challenges as much as we like a good story behind the raid. But if you at SSG no not see the problems of the game or just ignore it and making the raid even on T1 to such a challenge that many players don't even want to try it: what your story becomes then? A side note for a few, who maybe not even interested on it?

    Until your colleagues recognize the problems, making a solo version of Shelob's story might not be for you, but then again being able to tell THAT story not only for a few but for many is maybe the only way of sufficient notoriety to get you to try it - and who knows, maybe you'd like it.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by MadeOfLions View Post
    Challenging for whom? The encounter would need to be completely redesigned from the ground up, complete with fantastically overpowered buffs to keep the solo player alive and able to contribute to the fight, and it's either going to be a complete cakewalk for everybody or too hard for a percentage of the players who asked for it (for example: Gothmog's Rage, which did have those buffs and still proved much too difficult for a pretty large percentage of the audience, while still managing to be too easy for the rest). The team made a really interesting and challenging battle against Shelob (and friends!), and stripping out all the challenge of that fight feels counterproductive to me: she's Shelob, very high in the pantheon of fantasy's greatest monsters, and she should be TOUGH. I do think there's an audience out there who would absolutely eat up a story-focused raiding video series, if such a thing existed, so you can still see how the story unfolds, but watering down the encounter feels like it de-fangs the experience.

    The thing is: I love Shelob. She's a major part of my very favorite section of The Lord of the Rings, and I think Shelob slinking away to an uncertain fate following Sam's heroics is a perfect conclusion to her story. Replacing Samwise the Stout-hearted with the player in a solo instance (even with your favorite Elf buddy nearby to provide sufficient cover for the question of 'How can you stand toe to horrible foot with Shelob?' doesn't make me happy. He faced her alone, and that was significant; the player, no matter how amazing (and you're all pretty amazing!) shouldn't be able to do the same. As a designer, I of course know all the counterarguments ('She was wounded!' 'You've done this before!' 'Just have her run away!' etc. etc.), but I don't find them compelling in this case. The team enjoys making solo versions of smaller group-size instances, but "make a solo raid" feels like a bridge too far. Raiding might not be for you, but then again maybe Shelob is the only villain of sufficient notoriety to get you to try it - and who knows, maybe you'd like it.

    MoL


    Fair enough, and I agree with much that you have said in principle

    The elephant in the room here, though, in practical reality, concerns the ripple-effects of the current situation. It shouldn't take a regular player half a year to earn the gear just to do Tier 1 of the raid with a group. We need an "on ramp" and something good to drop to encourage more experienced players to play T1 as well. I agree with folks who have said that, well, T1 should feel and play like T1, not like T3 or T5. A decent challenge is one thing; a nearly-insurmountable task only completable by a handful of players after months upon months of grinding is something else. T1, in the good 'ole days, was supposed to be -the grind- where you learned the raid's mechanics, how to coordinate, how things work, and how to learn and increase your skill playing in a group; it used to be the training ground for the harder tiers with the best drops. Now, its like throwing a snowball into Mount Doom and hoping it doesn't melt; it always melts, and the end-game was made too complicated from Gondor onward. I actually miss the Moria days when things were much more simple: players were encouraged to group to do stuff like GS and other instances to learn their classes and experience challenges, and it was much, much easier to get involved in T1 content, including raids. Now, we have all of these mega-systems that clog players' experiences and make it pretty much impossible to catch-up in a time-reasonable way.

    Please also add that Cirith Ungol instance to the Reflecting Pool if you haven't already done so. I know she's special, but surely player-characters wouldn't forget so harrowing a memory?
    Phantion no longer has a character named Phantion in-game. He transferred to Landroval.

    .

  25. #25
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    Zzzz If you're too extra to join a raid, just go watch it on utube. Problem solved

 

 
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