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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tullkas View Post
    Bears are ahead of us already doing 115k+
    Seriously?

    I am starting to have a hard time communicating my extreme amount of disappointment at how pathetic the devs understanding of how thier game plays, without using curses and banned words.
    This is just unreal.

    Not one dev comment yet... Not just on my thread but ANY champ thread... For months and updates now....

  2. #77
    Some more info on parses:

    Fully raid geared champ with swapping 114k
    Fully raid geared lightning rk 140k, 160k, 178k

    Top numbers ive seen on br so far. Rk rotation looks like spamming 2 skills or even 3. I dont have rk so probably its more skills, at least some buffs but looks like super easy and unfair. Those who say that rk should stay where they are coz raid buff will even the numbers idk... In some reality maybe, but highly doubted that in real world. It will be 3-4 rk meta in raid probably both coz of damage and rezzes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khluzainn View Post
    Not one dev comment yet... Not just on my thread but ANY champ thread... For months and updates now....
    They dont comment every thread and every post but they read info, at least on br forum. And fix some things. So dont expect too much attention.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunhard View Post
    Some more info on parses:

    Fully raid geared champ with swapping 114k
    Fully raid geared lightning rk 140k, 160k, 178k

    Top numbers ive seen on br so far. Rk rotation looks like spamming 2 skills or even 3. I dont have rk so probably its more skills, at least some buffs but looks like super easy and unfair. Those who say that rk should stay where they are coz raid buff will even the numbers idk... In some reality maybe, but highly doubted that in real world. It will be 3-4 rk meta in raid probably both coz of damage and rezzes.



    They dont comment every thread and every post but they read info, at least on br forum. And fix some things. So dont expect too much attention.
    Try parsing with Rk without using writ of lightning and you will see the disparity between Yellow RK and Red Champion is not that different. Furthermore, Burglars have far greater survivability than RKs, because of provoke / touch & go / Knives Out, making them the MOST overpowered.

    In a Raid setting, all mitigations of enemy mobs will be on zero, which will put everyone on equal footing and from that point we can do dps checks, but to compare the Champion with a RK who can use -15% lightning debuff, is not a FAIR comparison.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Try parsing with Rk without using writ of lightning and you will see the disparity between Yellow RK and Red Champion is not that different.
    I often agree with a lot of your points but this is hilarious. I'll rephrase what you just posted.

    If you just tie your hands behind your back on Rune-Keeper you'll see the disparity between RK and Champion is not that different.

    Are you seriously trying to suggest that Champ is even remotely close to where any other DPS is right now, let alone RK? Whaaat??
    #15skills

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Khluzainn View Post
    Seriously?

    I am starting to have a hard time communicating my extreme amount of disappointment at how pathetic the devs understanding of how thier game plays, without using curses and banned words.
    This is just unreal.

    Not one dev comment yet... Not just on my thread but ANY champ thread... For months and updates now....
    There is nothing wrong with Beornings doing 115k DPS. They permanently bypass 40% mitigations. They would do nowhere near a champ's DPS in a raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    I often agree with a lot of your points but this is hilarious. I'll rephrase what you just posted.

    If you just tie your hands behind your back on Rune-Keeper you'll see the disparity between RK and Champion is not that different.

    Are you seriously trying to suggest that Champ is even remotely close to where any other DPS is right now, let alone RK? Whaaat??
    Seems like you missed the point. The point was that in a raid setting, the advantage from having your personal mitigation debuff is nullified, because mitigations are all down to 0 anyway. In such a scenario, RKs and Champs are reasonably close together.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Seems like you missed the point. The point was that in a raid setting, the advantage from having your personal mitigation debuff is nullified, because mitigations are all down to 0 anyway. In such a scenario, RKs and Champs are reasonably close together.
    I fully understood that, the real point is that there are a plethora of Tactical Mit debuffs and nobody is bringing champs or bothering to debuff Phys Mit to any serious extent. Outside of things like AC, with below 100% uptime.

    I very highly doubt that a high-end-average of 105k DPS on a Dummy where an RK can get over 210k (kinnie who's actually good at lightning RK just did it 2mins ago) translates to an even keel in a raid setting.

    I cannot comprehend why people playing godmode FOTM classes are sat here crying for the most underwhelming DPSer of the last FIVE YEARS to not receive a proper buff, after it gets a 10% increase when it needs more like 30% and a major skill rework in some cases.
    #15skills

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Khluzainn View Post
    Seriously?

    I am starting to have a hard time communicating my extreme amount of disappointment at how pathetic the devs understanding of how thier game plays, without using curses and banned words.
    This is just unreal.

    Not one dev comment yet... Not just on my thread but ANY champ thread... For months and updates now....
    I am not spending any resources solvents, essences ,virtue xp I send to alts , etc until Champs are Viable again. I understand a complete class update takes time (although we are due and next in line). But a simple +20%- 25% increase to all strike skills would be a decent band aid until class rework on champs can be done.

  8. #83
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    15% lightning mit bypass doesnt make up for 40-60k dmg...

    For the final time... A class should not have to really on 3-4 other classes to do average at best damage... as a DAMAGE dealing class. They should be able to really on other classes to reach the highest levels of potential but not low to mid levels...

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    I fully understood that, the real point is that there are a plethora of Tactical Mit debuffs and nobody is bringing champs or bothering to debuff Phys Mit to any serious extent. Outside of things like AC, with below 100% uptime.

    I very highly doubt that a high-end-average of 105k DPS on a Dummy where an RK can get over 210k (kinnie who's actually good at lightning RK just did it 2mins ago) translates to an even keel in a raid setting.

    I cannot comprehend why people playing godmode FOTM classes are sat here crying for the most underwhelming DPSer of the last FIVE YEARS to not receive a proper buff, after it gets a 10% increase when it needs more like 30% and a major skill rework in some cases.
    Physical Mit is very easily debuffed. Warden, Beorning, LM, captain pet, Hunter, it all adds up rather quickly. I don't know why you wouldn't bother to debuff physical mit when burglars are the highest DPS in the game. Anyway, I don't disagree with the larger point you're making, I just think your reasoning is somewhat flawed. Of course champions need a significant buff. That's why I have been going on about it for the past week. But having a personal mitigation debuff skews dummy parses, and that needs to be taken into account. What you were accusing the person you quoted of, was not entirely fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khluzainn View Post
    15% lightning mit bypass doesnt make up for 40-60k dmg...

    For the final time... A class should not have to really on 3-4 other classes to do average at best damage... as a DAMAGE dealing class. They should be able to really on other classes to reach the highest levels of potential but not low to mid levels...
    Actually, 210k would be 168k without Writ of Lightning, meaning a 42k difference. So, you're wrong, it definitely does make that much difference. However, since that means Champions should be at 170k, that still means champions need a ~40% buff.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    I fully understood that, the real point is that there are a plethora of Tactical Mit debuffs and nobody is bringing champs or bothering to debuff Phys Mit to any serious extent. Outside of things like AC, with below 100% uptime.

    I very highly doubt that a high-end-average of 105k DPS on a Dummy where an RK can get over 210k (kinnie who's actually good at lightning RK just did it 2mins ago) translates to an even keel in a raid setting..
    "Plethora" of tactical mit debuffs he says, there are.... 3? Warden, RK's own debuff and LM Big Battle Jewellery (Which has 33% uptime only, if and when it procs). In comparison to physical mit debuffs being.... Bear, Warden, Hunter all of which have 100% uptime, and then of course AC and Rend which affect both. IN ANY EVENT all mitigations are on the lowest point with a proper raid team consisting of a LM, Bear, Warden, Champ, did the testing, posted the pictures, 'mitigations' are a non-issue.

    Furthermore, love the fact that the 'Lightning RK' did exactly double the DPS of the Champ, without pics, it's just random numbers pulled out of thin air quite frankly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Physical Mit is very easily debuffed. Warden, Beorning, LM, captain pet, Hunter, it all adds up rather quickly. I don't know why you wouldn't bother to debuff physical mit when burglars are the highest DPS in the game. Anyway, I don't disagree with the larger point you're making, I just think your reasoning is somewhat flawed. Of course champions need a significant buff. That's why I have been going on about it for the past week. But having a personal mitigation debuff skews dummy parses, and that needs to be taken into account. What you were accusing the person you quoted of, was not entirely fair.
    I am not against Champions receiving a buff in anyway, I'm simply stipulating that in a raid setting, which is where we will truly see the dps check of all classes, asking for a mitigation bypass will not give the champion any buff what-so-ever.

  11. #86
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    oh wow a random RK did a 1 out of 100 >200k parse where every SS and VI did crit.... lets use it in my argument for buffing other classes... smh
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  12. #87
    Regardless of how effective mit pen would be in raid red line still needs it.I couldnt care less if PM is 0 with bear ward rend ac when RK outparse me in 90% 3/6 mans setups just because they have their own mit debuff.How about we remove lightning mit debuff from yellow RK and slap it heal RK line that way if you dont have RK healer in group you feel same as champ that doesnt have accses to bear 24 7 in all 3 6 man and even raids.

    Also since rend is roughly 5% mit debuff and parses close to red when it comes to ST what is point of red line?Inc 10% melee dmg maybe?Or duel?

    Mit pen is needed for more consistend parses accros all content not just once per year raid.Crit defence/another offensive fellow wide debuff so you are not kept in yellow due to rend.And after that you can tweak damage all you want.
    Parsing 100k solo 200k with 3 other people is nowhere near as parsing 150k solo 200k with 1-2 other people.Its not good balancing at all.
    They can balance mit debuffs completly so they are not 1.This strong 2.Most of them piled up in single skill/class.

    I am forming fellow 4/6 1st group I have non phy mit debuffers in,i am looking for DPS champ is out,2nd i have phy mit debuffers in i am looking for DPS,champ is in but so is RK.That is complete bull#### regardless of how it evens out in raid.
    x2 increase to base damage with nerf to crit mag
    fellow wide usefull utility
    less reliant on other classes,take away half mit debuff from ward/bear if you dont want to nulify usefullness of those skills in raid and put them to champ so class is not t hat far behind in 3/6 mans or not ideal raid setup as you wont have access to same group everytime.
    And then increase damage if needed.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    I cannot comprehend why people playing godmode FOTM classes are sat here crying for the most underwhelming DPSer of the last FIVE YEARS to not receive a proper buff, after it gets a 10% increase when it needs more like 30% and a major skill rework in some cases.
    Heph have a point and he is right from his own point of view.The think is first, that he play main rk and ofc he want to have the advantage in every situation no matter how big or small it is cause in this game every little bit helps and second he cannot understand a main champion player what he is been through all this years and why he ask desperately for those mitigation's in red line.Like we say sometimes,if you dont live a situation no matter how well they describe it to you you cannot understand.

    I will say it again, it will not make big difference or any at all to good groups that have all classes inside to mitigate the targets,problem is that even in good groups sometimes one of those classes are missing and in some other more casual groups some of those classes are absent systematically meaning that you condemned those champions to very low parses and in result to be thrown out of the raid.
    Problem become even bigger for 3 and 6 man instances.

    We dont want just a buff so we can be viable only for this raid.If this was only the case then we would ask just a plus 40% base damage buff and get on with it.The point is that class have been left behind for years,have lots of issues and weaknesses and personal mitigation bypass is one of them.If they want to give now then so be it cause it will help when some classes will be absent in raid and mostly those more casual groups.If not then they should give later cause it will be extremely useful for 3 and 6 man instances.

    That i had to say about personal mitigation's bypass and that is my opinion with the experience of been main champion for 13 years been through from every situations and any kind of groups, from bad groups,casual groups and hard core raiding groups.
    Mitigation bypass it will help all of them with the one way or another some more but all of them.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeviternus View Post
    Physical Mit is very easily debuffed. Warden, Beorning, LM, captain pet, Hunter, it all adds up rather quickly. I don't know why you wouldn't bother to debuff physical mit when burglars are the highest DPS in the game. Anyway, I don't disagree with the larger point you're making, I just think your reasoning is somewhat flawed. Of course champions need a significant buff. That's why I have been going on about it for the past week. But having a personal mitigation debuff skews dummy parses, and that needs to be taken into account. What you were accusing the person you quoted of, was not entirely fair.



    Actually, 210k would be 168k without Writ of Lightning, meaning a 42k difference. So, you're wrong, it definitely does make that much difference. However, since that means Champions should be at 170k, that still means champions need a ~40% buff.
    I completely agree.

    I was speaking more to the parses posted in my Minas Morgul dps thread in character development part of fourms where they average 135-150k and the pre-raid gear champs are 85-90k dps. The 15% here only accounds for like ~20k where in order to be in the same boat champs are they would need to take a hit 40-60k.

    Doesnt matter who you are or what your 'feelings' tell you, if you don't think red champ needs some kind of dps compensation or improvment, the questoin has to be asked if you have played the game past level 30 and if you are older than 14. Its not a debate, it needs help in one form or another.

  15. #90
    Some think to add here.

    First of all apart from the huge gap between dpsers is the fact that throught the years especialy with Mordor expansion SSG made many instances/raids with melee unfriendly mechanics forcing many players to swich into more easy to play classes like Hunters and Rune keepers. In all of this, SSG made the tanking mechanics way to difficult (not sure if this is good or not) that only top tier tanks can now tank even for simple fights the new instances/raids wiping out almost 99% of warden tanks and next to abort the class as a whole. Now wardens may be relevant with their dps increase damage but its already too late since most of the players have get use to easy play classes like Rune keepers and now burglars. Beornings on the other hand came in 2015 but they become relevant at late 2018 so main beornings are super rare nowdays. Where i want to end up is that the whole melee system have been DEPROMOTED and been forgotten by the "easy play" game play. You barely find any kinship which mainly create melee setups. SSG may now afraid to promote melee system again believing that they may lose lot of their players who have get use to easy to play classes.In general the melee setup system have been abadond by SSG and the player community itself.


    The best solution is:

    Make every melee class independent of the needs of buffs and debuffs for example put on champions their own debuff system like mitigation bypass better armor bypass and a melee % buff increase or something like red guardian's shield wall.

    Since most of raid groups/kinships are RANGE support friendly by doing the above melees (Like champions) will equalized their damage with the damage of a full range support group .
    Argohald Champion(main), Phokalin Guardian, Aljeza Lore master : The Aegean eagles kinship in Evernight
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  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleziana View Post
    The best solution is:

    Make every melee class independent of the needs of buffs and debuffs for example put on champions their own debuff system like mitigation bypass better armor bypass and a melee % buff increase or something like red guardian's shield wall.

    Since most of raid groups/kinships are RANGE support friendly by doing the above melees (Like champions) will equalized their damage with the damage of a full range support group .
    Absolutely not. Support is an integral part of LotRO's combat system. What you are proposing would utterly ruin that. Not only that, you're flat out wrong in stating that "most kinships are range support friendly". Any proper raid group comes along with almost all the debuffs required for melee classes.

    Also, you should probably take this to a new thread. This thread is about short term buffs to red champions to make them viable in the raid.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleziana View Post
    Some think to add here.

    First of all apart from the huge gap between dpsers is the fact that throught the years especialy with Mordor expansion SSG made many instances/raids with melee unfriendly mechanics forcing many players to swich into more easy to play classes like Hunters and Rune keepers. In all of this, SSG made the tanking mechanics way to difficult (not sure if this is good or not) that only top tier tanks can now tank even for simple fights the new instances/raids wiping out almost 99% of warden tanks and next to abort the class as a whole. Now wardens may be relevant with their dps increase damage but its already too late since most of the players have get use to easy play classes like Rune keepers and now burglars. Beornings on the other hand came in 2015 but they become relevant at late 2018 so main beornings are super rare nowdays. Where i want to end up is that the whole melee system have been DEPROMOTED and been forgotten by the "easy play" game play. You barely find any kinship which mainly create melee setups. SSG may now afraid to promote melee system again believing that they may lose lot of their players who have get use to easy to play classes.In general the melee setup system have been abadond by SSG and the player community itself.


    The best solution is:

    Make every melee class independent of the needs of buffs and debuffs for example put on champions their own debuff system like mitigation bypass better armor bypass and a melee % buff increase or something like red guardian's shield wall.

    Since most of raid groups/kinships are RANGE support friendly by doing the above melees (Like champions) will equalized their damage with the damage of a full range support group .

    I kinda agree with the first part of your post but not with what you propose as a solution cause you went to far.
    Mitigation bypass is enough for Red line to help a bit.Classes are designed to help each other by bringing everyone in the group and thats the way should be.
    If the group doesnt provide at least the basic support to melees no self buffs will save you unless they make you broken like burglars.Even those in a non friendly melee raid setup and the with out proper support they provide half of their potentials.
    So in conclusion,mitigation bypass is more than enough and in most cases it will helps in 3 and 6 man instances.For raid it will helps only if one of the other classes that complete the puzzle sometimes are absent.
    Even if they gave us the mitigations if the group doesnt support properly the melees the difference you will see would be minimum but at least it will be something from nothing.To make completely independent a class is not a good idea in my opinion.
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  18. #93
    Why are you folks so afraid of making every class independent from a damage perspective?

    There are still plenty of ways for other classes & specs to support each other.


    Would you like to know what happens when all classes can function independently of each other? I'll tell you. People bring whatever the hell they feel like bringing with no stigma attached. Look to any other game which has a +/- 5% dps spread. People bring what they want to bring, all classes are welcome, playstyle differences account for spec choice, all classes are viable.

    Its situations like where we are now where melee damage dealers *require* specific classes (Beorning, LM, Warden...) to be present for them to achieve their full potential that cause issues. What are you going to do, just go into a pug where you have no Beorning present, nor LM, because the people don't want to play those classes? Thats what ends up happening now and then everyone else underperforms because the linchpins of our dps are not present and the raid is balanced with those classes being present.


    Regardless of where you stand on this, it is pure fact that the magnitude of the debuffs for certain mitigations are unbalanced. Fire springs to mind.

    Look at the way we currently phrase our conversations about mitigations: "In a raid setting all mitigations are feeble" This is whats being bandied about yet its not the case. The statement should run "in a raid setting with the right class setups all mitigations are feeble" yet even then it demands that certain classes be brought to a raid just so that other classes can perform. THIS SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE.
    If you strongly feel that mitigations should remain, then minimize their magnitude. If the difference between having the right classes and missing two classes is closer to 5% then it becomes less of an issue. 5% can be made up for in rDPS by a skilled player playing what they enjoy.

    Remember, this issue rolls on to affect 3 and 6mans where the potential pool of players is far more limited. Back in Shadows of Angmar there were more players engaged with instanced content, a larger pool of players meant that people wouldn't have to wait as long to find someone who filled the needed role and wanted to fill the needed role. Right now our pool of players is dramatically smaller. We don't have the luxury of waiting on specific classes in most cases. Every class needs better access to all content and this mitigation issue is one of the things which is holding us back.


    p.s. 10% isn't nearly enough. We need a rework or something close to a 50% damage buff on strike skills as a TEMPORARY HOTFIX WHILE YOU WORK ON FIXING THE BASELINE PROBLEMS WITH OUR CLASS.

    p.p.s. You blue-text folks REALLY need to chime in with a plan of some kind. A simple "we know the 10% buff isn't enough and we're working on a better solution for you" or "we feel that in a raid setting champion damage will be fine" so we can converse with you and explain why we feel that is not the case is sorely needed.

    TALK TO US.

  19. #94
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    So are you prepared to lose your aoe title for redline to be very strong st? Lest I remind you all that champion solo dmg is undebuffed/buffed.



    I dont think buffing red champ is way to go I'd rather see champs unchallenged in field of aoe with better aoe damage and self heals.



    When people hear champ they think massive aoe, I want this image to exist again not to be challenged by other classes but 100% the king of aoe without doubt.



    We have red burgs and ward for high st damage I think if we move for yellow champ to be buffed in aoe the devs will reply vs trying make champs ST on burg hunt levels.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I have couple point's I see that make yellow champ lose

    - They need a threat reducing skill, when run into a group/boss with 5 mob's and decide to go all out burst with eprfect buffs/debuffs from group the tank loses aggro more than often and 2-3 hit's champs dead. This ties into my next point

    - A great self heal something that can protect champions from dying in 3-4 hits from its aoe aggro to make this a primary yellowline skill which can be triggered elts say 15% self heal on being hit during lets say max fervour.

    - A cooldown much like a tank's since yellowline champ is deep in the fray and need's a skill/heal desperately so they can not die when unleashing max aoe potential ( 20% Parry & evade skill during a time let's say 10 second's on 1 minute cooldown )





    Every other melee class has oh yikes save skills so its only right the class thats deepest in the middle of mob's should also have this and a heal

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    p.p.s. You blue-text folks REALLY need to chime in with a plan of some kind. A simple "we know the 10% buff isn't enough and we're working on a better solution for you" or "we feel that in a raid setting champion damage will be fine" so we can converse with you and explain why we feel that is not the case is sorely needed.TALK TO US.
    I agree with this 100%. I mean its completely unacceptable,not even one word from developers in at least 4 threads with this issue with hundreds of posts for at least 3 months now.Its at least disrespectful for player base and customers to treat us like this.All this time we have to assume if anything is going to happen from what Cordovan say in live streaming and he barely say something or anything at all.Just tell us what you have in mind and what is going to happen.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
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  21. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    So are you prepared to lose your aoe title for redline to be very strong st? Lest I remind you all that champion solo dmg is undebuffed/buffed.

    I dont think buffing red champ is way to go I'd rather see champs unchallenged in field of aoe with better aoe damage and self heals.

    When people hear champ they think massive aoe, I want this image to exist again not to be challenged by other classes but 100% the king of aoe without doubt.

    We have red burgs and ward for high st damage I think if we move for yellow champ to be buffed in aoe the devs will reply vs trying make champs ST on burg hunt levels.
    One does not follow the other.
    Redline is redline. It is not yellow line. Redline does *not* have the AoE potential of Yellow line. Buffing redline is not going to affect yellow line unless they buff unwisely. Being "aoe kings" is all well and good until you remember that boss fights usually boil down to sustained damage on a single target. Adds can pop up, but they do not have enough health to warrant yellow line in most cases. The other issue is that some of the bosses with multiple adds with large enough health pools, have immobile adds spaced far enough apart to prevent champion aoes from affecting multiple targets. (Kidzul Kalah as an immediate example).

    But the most important takeaway is that Buffs to Redline do not warrant nerfs to ANY other part of the class. This is not a give and take situation, this is a fix what has been broken situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    I have couple point's I see that make yellow champ lose

    - They need a threat reducing skill, when run into a group/boss with 5 mob's and decide to go all out burst with eprfect buffs/debuffs from group the tank loses aggro more than often and 2-3 hit's champs dead. This ties into my next point

    - A great self heal something that can protect champions from dying in 3-4 hits from its aoe aggro to make this a primary yellowline skill which can be triggered elts say 15% self heal on being hit during lets say max fervour.

    - A cooldown much like a tank's since yellowline champ is deep in the fray and need's a skill/heal desperately so they can not die when unleashing max aoe potential ( 20% Parry & evade skill during a time let's say 10 second's on 1 minute cooldown )

    Every other melee class has oh yikes save skills so its only right the class thats deepest in the middle of mob's should also have this and a heal
    1). Ebbing Ire exists. A different threat reduction skill would be nice but would fundamentally be useless in the current manner of tank balance (force taunts galore)
    2). a "great self heal" would not 'protect champions from dying in 3-4 hits' unless those 4 hits are spread out over enough time for the heal to be used and take effect. 15% self heal on being hit rolls right back into the problem of threat management. Healing builds threat, getting hit and then healing for more just builds more threat making you more likely to be targeted.
    3). a 'cooldown' similar to what you have suggested (20% parry/evade, 10s duration, 1 min cd) would not significantly help with survivability. Incremental increases to the rate at which you parry/evade are still fundamentally rng and should be looked at as a source of average damage mitigation. The situation you have outlined (which I do agree exists) is one of burst damage causing death (rapid swaps to you from multiple targets). If you want a cooldown to handle this then ask for "Knives Out" from redline burglar. It counters (30% melee) and reduces all incoming damage by 85%. It also functions as a threat drop once the damage reduction falls off.

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    p.s. 10% isn't nearly enough. We need a rework or something close to a 50% damage buff on strike skills as a TEMPORARY HOTFIX WHILE YOU WORK ON FIXING THE BASELINE PROBLEMS WITH OUR CLASS.
    Your solution then is, buff Champs so they are equal in bad groups who are too lazy to bring support, knowing that it would make them OP in good groups with support?
    Like, I have no problem with balancing for bad groups, as long as it does not create issues in good groups -> this does..

    Bad groups can learn to play, groups that don't have a beorning can tell 1 of their healers or tanks to create one. But if there's an imbalance in a scenario where people are already doing everything right then this imbalance persists.
    Since bad groups can improve, but good groups can't do anything balancing for good groups has to take precedence. So the damage should be balanced around supported damage, rather than unsupported.

    I, btw, have no problem with a 10-15% mits bypass, because it would not create issues in the raid when all mits are feeble anyway (it would just be useless in such a scenario). I do have a problem with overbuffing base damage, because that would create issues
    50% would be more damage than Burglars in a support scenario, and Burglars are so OP they need further nerf. Take Warden/RK damage as the balancing goal, but buffing all classes to Burglar level would just make the damage spiral out of control

  23. #98
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    ..
    Mik how many times we have to say that we dont want to be the best in ST target damage,we want to be on par with the others and decent cause at the moment we are not,simple.Not even one champion here asks to be on par with burglars or top,we asked to be on par with wardens and if you know well the history of this game champions always had better dps from wardens, slightly better single and much better for AOE at least burst for fast fights,cause in longer fights things change and they come much closer.Wardens had better tanking abilities we had better dps.Thats they way always was since Moria and that the way it should be.

    PS:And btw burglars should be nerfed even further period, so hunters will be the best ST dps again if they are not already after the recent buff.
    Last edited by Arandour; Feb 27 2020 at 03:19 AM.
    Arandour Champion Rank 12-Nerien Hunter rank 11-Runendir RK Rank 7
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  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by mrplaneswalker View Post
    Why are you folks so afraid of making every class independent from a damage perspective?

    There are still plenty of ways for other classes & specs to support each other.
    Because I don't want a fun aspect of the game to be diminished. It is rewarding to set a group up in the right way. I have experienced plenty of sterile WoW combat to know that it does not make the game more fun, rather the opposite. The raids in WoW are great. The combat is awful. In part, because of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikkye View Post
    So are you prepared to lose your aoe title for redline to be very strong st? Lest I remind you all that champion solo dmg is undebuffed/buffed.



    I dont think buffing red champ is way to go I'd rather see champs unchallenged in field of aoe with better aoe damage and self heals.
    This is the typical non sequitur regarding champions. Just because RKs can be top tier DPS, doesn't mean they should be unable to perform their healing role. Similarly, champions should be able to perform their ST DPS role.

    When people hear champ they think massive aoe, I want this image to exist again not to be challenged by other classes but 100% the king of aoe without doubt.
    Speak for yourself. That is not what I think of when I think about the class, nor what I want it to excel at. It is unhealthy for the game to have one role go uncontested. It makes no sense to assert that this "should" be the case, just because of some arbitrary preference that is not even held by everyone.
    Feailuve, Akabath, Failure - Evernight
    Also known as Giliodor

  25. #100
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    386
    A melee class should be highest ST as long as they are allowed to stay melee at all times. Ranged classes should be on par, but not out DPS melee IF it's just tank and spank (I'm talking equally good players\gear etc here)
    Melee have to pay way more attention to mechanics and should also slot mits\vit to be able to survive melee combat. Ranged do not need this (I leave out burgs here as they are hilariously OP with their survival skills, but that is for another thread)

    The game has very much broken stuff in it now, and with this raid / update release it's only getting worse. A class update should come and should actually be pre-raid but we all know this aint happening.
    Doing class reworks in the middle of raid progression is kinda bad (as it was in anvil were both minstrels\burgs\captains got huge reworks.
    Commander Emaldiom [EN] Evernight - Morale-Smasher - Lotro
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