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  1. #51
    Ppl complaining about grind in mmorpg game, nothing new here. Prices are way to high for them they say, coz they probably want everything at day 1 with their stored currencies. Come on, if you will get it that fast you will complain that you have nothing to do coz you are already sitting on top with the best gear you can get. Gear is coming in waves with patches like in many other mmorpg, couple of months and we get a new wave, this is how it should be to get ppl engaged. And why you want those runes right here and right now? Lets say its striking rune, you get get 120 lvl rare mithrin rune for 100 marks with something around 220 base damage, vales rune with 236 damage for 30 gulmarks, with new ithil rune you'll get 300, do you really want that boost right here and right now without any effort at all? Or want to pay for that for around 4.5-7.5k gold like it was yesterday? All who write long posts here play super competitive content and will play raid a soon as it will come out? Guess not, coz when it will be released we will see kin runs mostly with some pugs failing from time to time until the point when they'll give up.

    We even have embers which you could stack from previous cap and get some gear on new cap, this is something you wont see in mmorpgs with constant lvl cap increase, coz there old items become obsolete very fast. All gear from instances is account bound now so you can trade it with alts, only big time investment left now is legendary items, scrolls part mostly coz there are few ways to get crystals like rako, festivals and ah. But ppl still compaining about grind, good one, but carefull, dont drown in your tears.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
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    83
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunhard View Post
    Ppl complaining about grind in mmorpg game, nothing new here. Prices are way to high for them they say, coz they probably want everything at day 1 with their stored currencies. Come on, if you will get it that fast you will complain that you have nothing to do coz you are already sitting on top with the best gear you can get. Gear is coming in waves with patches like in many other mmorpg, couple of months and we get a new wave, this is how it should be to get ppl engaged. And why you want those runes right here and right now? Lets say its striking rune, you get get 120 lvl rare mithrin rune for 100 marks with something around 220 base damage, vales rune with 236 damage for 30 gulmarks, with new ithil rune you'll get 300, do you really want that boost right here and right now without any effort at all? Or want to pay for that for around 4.5-7.5k gold like it was yesterday? All who write long posts here play super competitive content and will play raid a soon as it will come out? Guess not, coz when it will be released we will see kin runs mostly with some pugs failing from time to time until the point when they'll give up.

    We even have embers which you could stack from previous cap and get some gear on new cap, this is something you wont see in mmorpgs with constant lvl cap increase, coz there old items become obsolete very fast. All gear from instances is account bound now so you can trade it with alts, only big time investment left now is legendary items, scrolls part mostly coz there are few ways to get crystals like rako, festivals and ah. But ppl still compaining about grind, good one, but carefull, dont drown in your tears.
    Some people like you dont understand nothing about what people playing this game for years are talking about, nothing new here.
    There are 2 problems to be short. First is extremely low account wide cap. Seocnd, is that devs are doing everything upside down lately like adding relics to old content which is already bored for tenth time by last 3 months. People were grinding bad all the content past 3 months you know? Maybe u dont if u just started playing and talking about getting everything in day 1.
    Doing all the content for last 3 months and earning like milions of sigils which were worthless is just giant mock directed to gamers who spent lots of time here and money. Now you can get relics with old content which already people are bored? Not much lffs for harrow/roost not mention that anyone wanna do barrows. Now devs adding relics? now? Hah they must be laughting hard there out of stupid players.
    So why are you speaking about things u dont understand ?

  3. #53
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    This is really funny: People who played through the entire expansion with multiple toons complain that because of the currency cap their efforts were not rewarded, and others accuse them of being lazy and wanting everything on day 1 without effort? We are not on day 1 - we are on day 100+ here, people already put in effort and it took the devs so long to give us something worth our efforts to barter for? And just think if this were real life and you had a 999 Dollar cap on your bank account without knowing if there will ever be anything to buy which you need. You go to work everyday for three months but all you earn over 999 Dollar is zeroed. And then someday there is something you need multiple times and it costs 500 Dollars. Would you say this is ok? I don't think so.
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  4. #54
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    2,328
    Quote Originally Posted by Gildoriel View Post
    This is really funny: People who played through the entire expansion with multiple toons complain that because of the currency cap their efforts were not rewarded, and others accuse them of being lazy and wanting everything on day 1 without effort? We are not on day 1 - we are on day 100+ here, people already put in effort and it took the devs so long to give us something worth our efforts to barter for? And just think if this were real life and you had a 999 Dollar cap on your bank account without knowing if there will ever be anything to buy which you need. You go to work everyday for three months but all you earn over 999 Dollar is zeroed. And then someday there is something you need multiple times and it costs 500 Dollars. Would you say this is ok? I don't think so.
    good analogy. I have to agree here. I turned in at least 100 sigils worth of quests without knowing I was maxed out, all gone to waste. Then I quickly depleted for whatever trash I could because of fear of hitting cap. I maintained around 0-100 balance constantly for this reason, then without warning something we actually need is up for 500 each.

    This is a game, supposed to be fun, things like this do make it annoying and frustrating.
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  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogdush View Post
    Some people like you dont understand nothing about what people playing this game for years are talking about, nothing new here.
    There are 2 problems to be short. First is extremely low account wide cap. Seocnd, is that devs are doing everything upside down lately like adding relics to old content which is already bored for tenth time by last 3 months. People were grinding bad all the content past 3 months you know? Maybe u dont if u just started playing and talking about getting everything in day 1.
    Look at my join date, you are the only one playing thise game for years it seems.

    About your first problem - lets imagine we dont have a cap on that currency, this patch comes and bam, you got all the relics you want, coz you were playing old content that bored you tenth times in 3 months. Btw calling current cap content old is a nice move, we have nothing else to play now. And if ppl prefer to grind badly content instead of playing for fun that is their problem i think. Game is suppose to give you enjoyment for time you spend in it, its not work you have to do every day becouse you need money. This is just a game man, relax and have a good time, seems like you forget about it after all the grinding you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogdush View Post
    Doing all the content for last 3 months and earning like milions of sigils which were worthless is just giant mock directed to gamers who spent lots of time here and money. Now you can get relics with old content which already people are bored? Not much lffs for harrow/roost not mention that anyone wanna do barrows. Now devs adding relics? now? Hah they must be laughting hard there out of stupid players.
    So why are you speaking about things u dont understand ?
    I agree that we actually didnt have anything usefull to spend sigil on before that patch. Adding soe for trading with sigils, for example, would be very good move by devs, coz now we need hundreds of them for new legendary item. We wouldnt get millions of sigils but yeah, some noticable amount we can spend on something usefull. But again spending lots of time and money is a choice of those gamers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gildoriel View Post
    This is really funny: People who played through the entire expansion with multiple toons complain that because of the currency cap their efforts were not rewarded, and others accuse them of being lazy and wanting everything on day 1 without effort? We are not on day 1 - we are on day 100+ here, people already put in effort and it took the devs so long to give us something worth our efforts to barter for? And just think if this were real life and you had a 999 Dollar cap on your bank account without knowing if there will ever be anything to buy which you need. You go to work everyday for three months but all you earn over 999 Dollar is zeroed. And then someday there is something you need multiple times and it costs 500 Dollars. Would you say this is ok? I don't think so.
    Did i say lazy? No, i didnt. Look at that another way - devs add new currency so you can get new relics with it, you can get them from the same instances and quests. You have none of those currencies on day 1, will you say that they didnt reward you for playing the game? Adding new gear which you should take from new runs is how many mmorpg work. This is definitely isnt something new.

    You analogy about real life isnt relevant, its game with its own rules, not a real life. Dont accept the rules - find new game or at least take a break if you are bored of grinding in mmo. There are some examples from real life when ppl lose their money coz of country instability but its another story and has nothing to do with just a one game.

  6. #56
    A quick calculation. You can do three weekly quests, each one earning 70 sigils. Thats 210 per week. Add sigil rewards from quests and deeds, and you look at 250 - 300 sigils earnable per week.

    Now...if you want to equip a full set of the new relics, you'll need one DPS/HPS rune (at least), two settings, and two gems. Thats 1500 sigils. My chars tend to have two sets of LI's, so make that 3000 sigils. To earn 3000 sigils, I'd have to run weeklies for another ten to twelve weeks.

    Minas Morgul was released at the beginning of November. Since then, there were only a few useful items to buy, like the Return to Estolad Lan skill. I made a thread about this, even suggesting weapon relics as a barter option. That was at the end of November. I stopped counting how many times I did hit the cap since, loosing Sigils in the process. I bought lots of stuff I didn't want in the first place (dog pets...) just to avoid hitting the cap. I think I've lost thousands of Sigils because of this. Thousands.

    And now, three months later, those relics I'd suggested are released for a hefty price. So, after sending thousands of sigils into oblivion, looks like I require...thousands of sigils.

    Very frustrated here. If these relics had been added with MM release, or a month later, it would have been fine. Now, as one who bought the expansion for money, I feel cheated.

  7. #57
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    Sep 2010
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    375
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorikon View Post
    A quick calculation. You can do three weekly quests, each one earning 70 sigils. Thats 210 per week. Add sigil rewards from quests and deeds, and you look at 250 - 300 sigils earnable per week.

    Now...if you want to equip a full set of the new relics, you'll need one DPS/HPS rune (at least), two settings, and two gems. Thats 1500 sigils. My chars tend to have two sets of LI's, so make that 3000 sigils. To earn 3000 sigils, I'd have to run weeklies for another ten to twelve weeks.

    Minas Morgul was released at the beginning of November. Since then, there were only a few useful items to buy, like the Return to Estolad Lan skill. I made a thread about this, even suggesting weapon relics as a barter option. That was at the end of November. I stopped counting how many times I did hit the cap since, loosing Sigils in the process. I bought lots of stuff I didn't want in the first place (dog pets...) just to avoid hitting the cap. I think I've lost thousands of Sigils because of this. Thousands.

    And now, three months later, those relics I'd suggested are released for a hefty price. So, after sending thousands of sigils into oblivion, looks like I require...thousands of sigils.

    Very frustrated here. If these relics had been added with MM release, or a month later, it would have been fine. Now, as one who bought the expansion for money, I feel cheated.
    I feel assgraped hardly. It's funny how every topic we see people who take any BS SSG put us and keep saying it's all fine. I wonder if they even play this game.

    But 1 thing is sure, I seriously reconsider buying next expansion with money because of this kind of BS. People who are waiting to buy expansion with lotro points will be a big winner. They won't be raiding at day 1 but at least they can make sure they are not gonna waste any sigils.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Germany
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    SSG tried a new thing here: Introducing a way with no new currencies, but with cap and slowly growing rewards. But it seems they should go back to the old system and introduce 1000 new currencies. That's almost the same thing but people don't feel cheated.

  9. #59
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorikon View Post
    A quick calculation. You can do three weekly quests, each one earning 70 sigils. Thats 210 per week. Add sigil rewards from quests and deeds, and you look at 250 - 300 sigils earnable per week.

    Now...if you want to equip a full set of the new relics, you'll need one DPS/HPS rune (at least), two settings, and two gems. Thats 1500 sigils. My chars tend to have two sets of LI's, so make that 3000 sigils. To earn 3000 sigils, I'd have to run weeklies for another ten to twelve weeks.

    Minas Morgul was released at the beginning of November. Since then, there were only a few useful items to buy, like the Return to Estolad Lan skill. I made a thread about this, even suggesting weapon relics as a barter option. That was at the end of November. I stopped counting how many times I did hit the cap since, loosing Sigils in the process. I bought lots of stuff I didn't want in the first place (dog pets...) just to avoid hitting the cap. I think I've lost thousands of Sigils because of this. Thousands.

    And now, three months later, those relics I'd suggested are released for a hefty price. So, after sending thousands of sigils into oblivion, looks like I require...thousands of sigils.

    Very frustrated here. If these relics had been added with MM release, or a month later, it would have been fine. Now, as one who bought the expansion for money, I feel cheated.
    Completely agree,and imagine that some of as have 8 LIs only for our main character that need those relics,just saying.Thank god that at least those sigils are account shared,imagine to was character only, lol.

    Remove the cap, its the only way.
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  10. #60
    Can SSG please have another look, and make the new Relics at least Bound to Account, and not character bound, just like it was in Vales. It takes far too much time and quests to reach the required rep to barter on Alts.

    Account bound please.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandour View Post
    Completely agree,and imagine that some of as have 8 LIs only for our main character that need those relics,just saying.Thank god that at least those sigils are account shared,imagine to was character only, lol.

    Remove the cap, its the only way.
    What the point to remove cap now when you have something to spend sigils on? Imagine someone has 10 alts with 4 lis each?

  12. #62
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    Mar 2018
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    83
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunhard View Post

    You analogy about real life isnt relevant, its game with its own rules, not a real life. Dont accept the rules - find new game or at least take a break if you are bored of grinding in mmo. There are some examples from real life when ppl lose their money coz of country instability but its another story and has nothing to do with just a one game.
    You obviously are extreme case of casual logging once a week, have no idea what u need to do now to grind good gear. Doing such things like devs did yesterday is just giant mock of every player who was grinding all the gear from november and on the other hand they add even more new grind, like 10x more grind over grind. I have enough of worthless grinding. I dont mind to grind things and even prefer it over random 0.001% chance like stupid thrang drops, but not when I need to grind another weeks for +1k worthless rating. Why do we have tier 3 purple essence which upgrades nothing just need 2 shards? with u22 we had teal essence with tier 3 which gave real worth upgrade. So i need to go to MM and grind chests for 10 weeks now to equip my toon and spent 50k marks for reclamantion scrolls? How much shards i will need later? Shard drop rate has been lowered like 20 times with every patch, but they dont write it and think people wont notice, that shard drops once a day now.
    I have lost all the motivation to play now, just stupid worthless grind over grind. Seriously, i am so dissappointed right now. Just stupid worthless grind fest 60h/7d.

  13. #63
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    Mar 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurinuor View Post
    SSG tried a new thing here: Introducing a way with no new currencies, but with cap and slowly growing rewards. But it seems they should go back to the old system and introduce 1000 new currencies. That's almost the same thing but people don't feel cheated.
    Those LI relics should have been on the barter on day one. People would still need to quest out the area, grind rep to max, and then run dailies for a bit to get all their relics. I got black dog pets for all my craft alts (I never use pets and have them perma-off in graphic options) and burned a fair few to cap. It is not the grind that stinks. It is seing results of that grind going down the drain without ever benefitting me.
    Sigils are definitely easy to accumulate. Yesterday I got about 40 from just harrowing and lamentation.
    One can do solo instance versions at like 123 with a partner REAL fast, and get like 32 from quests and 60 from chests + craft box chances. Throw in a nazgul run and you can top 100 per day. With weekly metas, about 900/week max grind. I will have all the relics I need in about a week.
    But the fact that I been flushing those sigils down for past 3 months still rankles. A lot.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunhard View Post
    What the point to remove cap now when you have something to spend sigils on? Imagine someone has 10 alts with 4 lis each?
    The point is that we will not have issues like this in the future.Loose sigils,embers or whatever by accident,spend to ridiculous things we dont need when we reach the cap and have to look at our wallet all the time.

    I have also 6 more toons except my main,some of them with multiple LIs but only my main have 8 that i was meaning,and if your main especially need many then its even harder or if you prefer more urgent to get.
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  15. #65
    1. Make ALL the relics Bound to Account OR Non-Bound.
    2. Cut all relics' cost by at least half right now for an excuse to wasting every players' coins since the expansion by putting the cap really low at 1000 coins and not putting any relics to barter at the start of the expansion.

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  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorikon View Post
    A quick calculation. You can do three weekly quests, each one earning 70 sigils. Thats 210 per week. Add sigil rewards from quests and deeds, and you look at 250 - 300 sigils earnable per week.

    Now...if you want to equip a full set of the new relics, you'll need one DPS/HPS rune (at least), two settings, and two gems. Thats 1500 sigils. My chars tend to have two sets of LI's, so make that 3000 sigils. To earn 3000 sigils, I'd have to run weeklies for another ten to twelve weeks.

    Minas Morgul was released at the beginning of November. Since then, there were only a few useful items to buy, like the Return to Estolad Lan skill. I made a thread about this, even suggesting weapon relics as a barter option. That was at the end of November. I stopped counting how many times I did hit the cap since, loosing Sigils in the process. I bought lots of stuff I didn't want in the first place (dog pets...) just to avoid hitting the cap. I think I've lost thousands of Sigils because of this. Thousands.

    And now, three months later, those relics I'd suggested are released for a hefty price. So, after sending thousands of sigils into oblivion, looks like I require...thousands of sigils.

    Very frustrated here. If these relics had been added with MM release, or a month later, it would have been fine. Now, as one who bought the expansion for money, I feel cheated.

    You can earn way more than 300 sigils week,

    210 from weeklies,
    and solo on T1 stuff you can earn about 80 a DAY, harrow solo on T1 has 3 quests to it, each gives 2 sigils plus 3 in each chest, so that instance alone will give you 12, Roost (again solo T1) has 1 quest and 2 chests so that's another 8 (20), Filth Well has 3 quests and 2 chests so 12 (32), Deep-Barrow has 3 quests and 2 chests,12(44), Black Lore 3 quests and 3 chest so thats 15 (59), Lamentation has 3 quests and 2 chests again 12 sigils for a total of 71/day just from running solo T1 content, add running the 3 man version on T1 solo another 6 sigils per chest then any T2 runs you do, 6 man stuff and the fallen kings run and you can earn nigh on 150 sigils per day, any solo player doing T1 stuff should easily be able to earn 100 sigils a day or 700 a week, when added to the 210 from the wrapper quests (bear in mind you get 2 sigils per nazgul/MM boss as well) 1000 sigils a week should easily be achievable by any player.

    edit,
    its actually 6 sigils per chest in black lore and lamentation and lamentation also has 3 chests not 2, all these can be done at lvl 121 as well.
    Last edited by bobbylobs; Feb 20 2020 at 01:24 PM.

  17. #67
    I play a 3 role class who needs 4 legendary pairs, as well as a few hotswaps and non imbued swaps that all need relics. It is for this reason, and the grind for SoE's/starlits that prevent me from having another class to play. I just, I can't imagine how horrible it must be for others to have to do all these dailies 2/3/4 times a day on top of SoE dailies.

    Also. I have 0 deeds left in MM. We all knew this was happening. We all knew that 130 relics were coming for sigils, and we know it doesn't take months to change the number value on them. We knew they would be dropped as a progression point, the next carrot to march for, and we knew and stated that we would all be out of deeds by the time it arrived. All those deed rewards were wasted except the few tied to virtue xp. The price seems very steep as well. It seems like I could always get a vales relic in a day, or a day and a run. This seems to be a significant mark up. Is the intent to blow our stack and then release the better price? Haven't you already inflicted that with the loss of deed rewards?
    .


  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by scorrp10 View Post
    Those LI relics should have been on the barter on day one. People would still need to quest out the area, grind rep to max, and then run dailies for a bit to get all their relics...But the fact that I been flushing those sigils down for past 3 months still rankles. A lot.

    This. And the Devs KNEW it would be happening.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    We all knew this was happening. We all knew that 130 relics were coming for sigils, and we know it doesn't take months to change the number value on them. We knew they would be dropped as a progression point, the next carrot to march for, and we knew and stated that we would all be out of deeds by the time it arrived. All those deed rewards were wasted except the few tied to virtue xp. The price seems very steep as well. It seems like I could always get a vales relic in a day, or a day and a run. This seems to be a significant mark up. Is the intent to blow our stack and then release the better price? Haven't you already inflicted that with the loss of deed rewards?

    Well said.

    Apparently we should never underestimate the ability of SSG to "inflict" their customers.

  20. #70
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    Personally im really annoyed at this, as someone who brought the top expansion, spent money on and levelled up 8 Characters supporting the game and new expansion I have done the grind already but I don't have the sigils to show for it because of a account wide cap, and 40 - 50 black wolf dogs given away to anyone who will have them. now they want me to grind the sigils again? sorry next time expansion comes im gonna not play it for 3 months and wait for the LP version because supporting the game and expansion has disadvantaged me and if SSG cant see that it has then something is very wrong. I have done my game time and grind and nothing to show for it!

    can we at least have a black dog trade in so I can get a few sigils back still have 10 or so in vault?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by MourneBlade View Post
    What are you talking about? It's still there at the Reclamation Rep. Npc's.
    they had 50 sigil FOR one relic....it is gone....now its one relic FOR 50 sigils...….they need to bring back 50 SIGIL TO RECIEVE FOR ONE RELIC to buy setting runes and gems

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freanix View Post
    Personally im really annoyed at this, as someone who brought the top expansion, spent money on and levelled up 8 Characters supporting the game and new expansion I have done the grind already but I don't have the sigils to show for it because of a account wide cap, and 40 - 50 black wolf dogs given away to anyone who will have them. now they want me to grind the sigils again? sorry next time expansion comes im gonna not play it for 3 months and wait for the LP version because supporting the game and expansion has disadvantaged me and if SSG cant see that it has then something is very wrong. I have done my game time and grind and nothing to show for it!

    can we at least have a black dog trade in so I can get a few sigils back still have 10 or so in vault?
    Exactly the point. Completely disrespectful for old players and those who support the most. THe same goes with increasing level of the gear every month from ember boxes and expect people to grind embers all over again, but new players dont need to do the grind they just get all the new pieces. We on the other hand have completely no reward for the old grind, i dont count 200 embers for decontruction lol.
    Im still pissed. Its just not worth to buy anything and just wait for final patch, then go play. Nice message SSG thanks

  23. #73
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    Jan 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogdush View Post
    Exactly the point. Completely disrespectful for old players and those who support the most. THe same goes with increasing level of the gear every month from ember boxes and expect people to grind embers all over again, but new players dont need to do the grind they just get all the new pieces. We on the other hand have completely no reward for the old grind, i dont count 200 embers for decontruction lol.
    Im still pissed. Its just not worth to buy anything and just wait for final patch, then go play. Nice message SSG thanks
    I new this would happen and i said it also.. Been like this since Mordor came out. This is why me and my friend havent grinded too much so you'll be burnt out, just quested, some deed and got a bit gear from instances, chilled a bit on legendary. Just wait.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorrp10 View Post
    One can do solo instance versions at like 123 with a partner REAL fast, and get like 32 from quests and 60 from chests + craft box chances. Throw in a nazgul run and you can top 100 per day. With weekly metas, about 900/week max grind. I will have all the relics I need in about a week.
    But the fact that I been flushing those sigils down for past 3 months still rankles. A lot.
    Yeah. The currency will come back. It's the fact that so much is gone for no purpose.

    I like the landscape and the quests for Minas Morgul, but literally *everything* about the endgame rollout has convinced me that the absolute *worst* thing I can do for my blood pressure and enjoyment of this game is to buy an expansion before it is available for points. This is the first expansion I have been here for its launch, so lesson learned.

  25. #75
    Well, if they would add new currency specifically for those relics then we wouldnt have so many ppl complaining probably coz you would need to start from the scratch. But since relics are traded for the same currency we at least can get some from saved sigils. Next time devs could take it into account. Also adding some usefull items to barter with sigils from start could help.

    How i see it as a part of the game: ppl say that they spent money on the game, put a lot of efforts and got nothing from farming instances and doing quests over and over on alts coz most of sigils were trashed coz of no good things to barter. Of course you can be disappointed, but i for myself couldnt say it ruins all my personal experience with expansion. This is mmorpg, some things here always will become outdated and you will always need to get new gear, get new lvl etc to be on top. Time is a currency of mmorpg. Thats why i should plan my playing time to not get caught by that, couple of months and we get new gear, this is something i would expect. As like its not a best choice to spent a lot of time or efforts to gear up before the new expansion coz all that you'll get become obsolete soon. So if you know that new gear is coming soon best choice would be to do something else instead of grinding hard. For example, level up some alts, do some fun content you like, play epic storyline, which is awesome, with reading dialogues not focusing a lot on grinding. If you dont like all that and prefer to focus on grinding then take into consideration that all you hard earned stuff on bassilion alts which you created just for grinding will become obsolete at some point. And you will be very disappointed. If after that you would think that game isnt worth money for you then its fine. Some ppl prefer shooters when other mmorpgs. But saying game isnt worth money spent cos you had wrong expectations isnt right i think.

 

 
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